MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Ow, dammit, I think I just sliced my foot open on the shards of my dreams.
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I give to you...the first Thief trailer (CGI). And I die a little inside as I listen to a voice that is not Stephen Russell's, yet still I'm going to try to keep an open mind!
I mean yeah it's a common turn of phrase, fair enough.
But not when there's another game coming out like right now that's already using it.
Thief: Deadly Shadows used the tagline as well back in the day. Specifically, Stephen Russell said it in I think the 2nd trailer if my memory serves correctly. I'll admit it's a little disappointing no to have Stephen Russell, but at the same time given how much older Stephen Russell is I can see why they might have chosen a younger voice actor for the character. After hearing Stephen Russell in Skyrim (he was Belethor, and Mercer Frey), I can see how an older man's voice might seem a little odd coming from a character that is younger.
Oddly enough, after playing Bioshock Infinite I couldn't help but think that Troy Baker could voice Garrett very well. I kept thinking Dewitt sounded very much like Garrett at times in that game.
I mean yeah it's a common turn of phrase, fair enough.
But not when there's another game coming out like right now that's already using it.
Thief: Deadly Shadows used the tagline as well back in the day. Specifically, Stephen Russell said it in I think the 2nd trailer if my memory serves correctly. I'll admit it's a little disappointing no to have Stephen Russell, but at the same time given how much older Stephen Russell is I can see why they might have chosen a younger voice actor for the character. After hearing Stephen Russell in Skyrim (he was Belethor, and Mercer Frey), I can see how an older man's voice might seem a little odd coming from a character that is younger.
Oddly enough, after playing Bioshock Infinite I couldn't help but think that Troy Baker could voice Garrett very well. I kept thinking Dewitt sounded very much like Garrett at times in that game.
Which was still ~1 year after Monaco started using it but whatever.
I mean yeah it's a common turn of phrase, fair enough.
But not when there's another game coming out like right now that's already using it.
Thief: Deadly Shadows used the tagline as well back in the day. Specifically, Stephen Russell said it in I think the 2nd trailer if my memory serves correctly. I'll admit it's a little disappointing no to have Stephen Russell, but at the same time given how much older Stephen Russell is I can see why they might have chosen a younger voice actor for the character. After hearing Stephen Russell in Skyrim (he was Belethor, and Mercer Frey), I can see how an older man's voice might seem a little odd coming from a character that is younger.
Oddly enough, after playing Bioshock Infinite I couldn't help but think that Troy Baker could voice Garrett very well. I kept thinking Dewitt sounded very much like Garrett at times in that game.
Which was still ~1 year after Monaco started using it but whatever.
This is just me, but I had never even heard of Monaco and they've been sitting on the line since before Deadly Shadows? It's not a unique line, there has to be a statute of limitations on this kind of thing.
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
Trailer was nice, though pretty meaningless. Garrett's visual design and voice look and sound fine, even if they are different.
The aesthetic looks agreeable, now I just want to see how they've balanced lethal approaches versus sneaking. That'll be the main thing that differentiates this between being a Thief game or a grimdark Dishonored.
A darker Dishonored would be the good outcome if they screw it up. Dishonored needed more non-combat skills, so if they end up with that it's an overall win still, even if not Thief.
Preferably it will be Thiefy, though.
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
I mean yeah it's a common turn of phrase, fair enough.
But not when there's another game coming out like right now that's already using it.
Thief: Deadly Shadows used the tagline as well back in the day. Specifically, Stephen Russell said it in I think the 2nd trailer if my memory serves correctly. I'll admit it's a little disappointing no to have Stephen Russell, but at the same time given how much older Stephen Russell is I can see why they might have chosen a younger voice actor for the character. After hearing Stephen Russell in Skyrim (he was Belethor, and Mercer Frey), I can see how an older man's voice might seem a little odd coming from a character that is younger.
Oddly enough, after playing Bioshock Infinite I couldn't help but think that Troy Baker could voice Garrett very well. I kept thinking Dewitt sounded very much like Garrett at times in that game.
Which was still ~1 year after Monaco started using it but whatever.
I really think of the complaints people have had, this is probably the most completely irrelevant. Deadly Shadows used it already from a long time ago and I can't remember even when Monaco was even announced to think they took it from that game (I only know about the impending XBLA release this month, that I am vastly looking forward to). Besides that, Thief 4 is probably still a year or more off anyway. I really don't see the relevance.
I am far more bothered by the ninja flipping and blowing things up personally. Hopefully that is just "This is the stuff we're doing to get people excited in the trailer" and not what the game will function like (or encourage). I am really worried if they will replicate the old games expert difficulty in it.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2013
Well it was just a cgi trailer. It's basically a piece of marketting dribble. I don't think I've ever seen a piece of CGI equate to gameplay.
So basically my stance has gone from what it was previously to what it was previously with nary a blip upon the react-o-meter. I only mentioned the ghost thing because it didn't really feel like something you'd naturally say. It had the feel of a reference.
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Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
Yes because condensing ten hours of careful, methodical sneaking and climbing into a two minute sizzle video makes more sense. Watch the Dishonored trailer. Watch the Human Revolution trailer. Heck, watch any Splinter Cell trailer ever for any instalment.
I played all of those games without killing anyone, without alerting guards, without even being seen. Yet the marketing would have you believe they are action heavy combat games.
E3 will be the watershed. If we see it being played, like we saw Dishonored, and the developers can talk through the non-sizzle elements, then the issue will be settled. But until then, don't fret. Remember what Ken Levine said about the Bioshock Infinite boxart? That applies here more than ever.
Well it was just a cgi trailer. It's basically a piece of marketting dribble. I don't think I've ever seen a piece of CGI equate to gameplay.
So basically my stance has gone from what it was previously to what it was previously with nary a blip upon the react-o-meter. I only mentioned the ghost thing because it didn't really feel like something you'd naturally say. It had the feel of a reference.
I've read some convincing posts over at GAF that make the case for it not being entirely CGI, merely pre-rendered or enhanced in-engine footage. Especially when you go frame by frame and see texture artifacts and things of that nature. Obviously the animations are all baked, and I don't think it's one of those Killzone 2 bullshot extravaganzas. But nor do I think this is a Human Revolution 'We got the Final Fantasy guys to completely CGI this bitch' type of deal. Because it's behind the curve significantly if that is the case.
Also, with regard to Stephen Russell doing the voice. I'm torn really. On one hand, it's a Hayter kind of situation. It's an Ironside kind of deal. He is Garrett and anyone else just sounds wrong. But, both MGS and Splinter Cell have gotten new voice actors for their iconic main characters and I feel they kind of have to. Adam Jensen in Human Revolution was essentially the JC voice anyway. It was a continuation of the tone and the feel. But they have to do the same with Thief. Distinguish themselves as their own title, otherwise we end up with a Tomb Raider Legends kind of situation, where it feels like one big parody, rather than its own frontier.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
It's worth noting that Deadly Shadows itself, was considered a bit of a departure from Thief's traditional setup back in the day (along with a similar level of apprehension and worry I might add).
This is the trailer I was talking about. After rewatching it, he doesn't use the exact same tagline - just a very very similar one at around 1:26 in the video.
0
augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
Also Garrett kills a guard in the intro to both Thief 1 & 2.
+1
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
My feet (and dreams) have healed, I am back to being optimistic :P
Probably just needed to stew a little while. Regardless of how they do it, I'm going to buy this game, and I'm going to play it my way, regardless. Lots of stealthy sneaking, lots of stealing, lots of glorious shiny baubles finding their way into my pockets :P
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
Yes because condensing ten hours of careful, methodical sneaking and climbing into a two minute sizzle video makes more sense. Watch the Dishonored trailer. Watch the Human Revolution trailer. Heck, watch any Splinter Cell trailer ever for any instalment.
I played all of those games without killing anyone, without alerting guards, without even being seen. Yet the marketing would have you believe they are action heavy combat games.
E3 will be the watershed. If we see it being played, like we saw Dishonored, and the developers can talk through the non-sizzle elements, then the issue will be settled. But until then, don't fret. Remember what Ken Levine said about the Bioshock Infinite boxart? That applies here more than ever.
Well it was just a cgi trailer. It's basically a piece of marketting dribble. I don't think I've ever seen a piece of CGI equate to gameplay.
So basically my stance has gone from what it was previously to what it was previously with nary a blip upon the react-o-meter. I only mentioned the ghost thing because it didn't really feel like something you'd naturally say. It had the feel of a reference.
I've read some convincing posts over at GAF that make the case for it not being entirely CGI, merely pre-rendered or enhanced in-engine footage. Especially when you go frame by frame and see texture artifacts and things of that nature. Obviously the animations are all baked, and I don't think it's one of those Killzone 2 bullshot extravaganzas. But nor do I think this is a Human Revolution 'We got the Final Fantasy guys to completely CGI this bitch' type of deal. Because it's behind the curve significantly if that is the case.
Also, with regard to Stephen Russell doing the voice. I'm torn really. On one hand, it's a Hayter kind of situation. It's an Ironside kind of deal. He is Garrett and anyone else just sounds wrong. But, both MGS and Splinter Cell have gotten new voice actors for their iconic main characters and I feel they kind of have to. Adam Jensen in Human Revolution was essentially the JC voice anyway. It was a continuation of the tone and the feel. But they have to do the same with Thief. Distinguish themselves as their own title, otherwise we end up with a Tomb Raider Legends kind of situation, where it feels like one big parody, rather than its own frontier.
Yeah but I don't care about graphics so knowing it's post processed spiffied up inengine doesn't mean anything. It's still not going to be gameplay.
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0
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I'm always baffled at why companies release trailers that don't show any gameplay. That's kind of the point of a trailer, in my opinion.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2013
Marketting.
Now you'd think that marketting is about showing you the product but this is not in fact how successful marketting works because we as human beings do not make a whole lot of sense as a general rule.
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MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Marketing what, though? Pretty CGI movies? It shows nothing about what a game is, what it's potential is, or anything at all.
I can show you a CGI movie of orcs screaming at humans, and you won't even be able to tell me if it's an RTS, RPG, or Action, without knowing the specific design-style of certain companies that happen to be very prevalent in Orcs and Humans.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2013
It doesn't matter. What you want to do is trigger an association with the product name and the main character, emotionally. You want something that will make people walk into the game shop and feel that the product on the shelf is a familiar one.
That is all you need to secure a purchase in the majority of cases. A flicker of unspecified interest. A well directed sequence like the above is a good way of capturing that.
It doesn't work on you and me because we think about it, take it more seriously, hell actually realise what's going on at all, than the majority of the market. They also don't need to worry about us with a trailer like this because we are going to make our decision based on find out more out of self interest. They know we will take the time to read up on interviews and previews and all that jazz.
Specifically it's mass marketting.
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MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Ah, I see. I suppose that makes sense, in that "pretty sells" kind of marketing. I'd get into arguments with my friends all the time, because they'd show me a trailer for a game, and I'd be all "what is this shit? It tells me nothing about the game at all!"
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2013
That stuff actually worked on me when I was a teenager. I was all gosh wow that was pretty and then when the actual gameplay came out I was a lot more interested due to the priming. In a couple of cases I bought based on the movie. I was very dumb.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
For the record, I really didn't really like that game except for one level (which is stand out fantastic I should say) and the fact they (IIRC) removed the idea of expert mode preventing you from killing anyone (it's been some time). I consider the first two games what this should emulate.
Again what I really want to hear is that expert mode (as it was) in the first two games is back, but I am getting a distinct feeling they may be focusing on combat and other aspects to put that into the game. While yes, I can indeed play dishonored if I feel the need to without killing anyone, it is never enforced in any way at all in Dishonored bar some differences in guards/weepers/story. In thief, it's the fact expert enforces you to not kill anyone as a specific character trait of Garret that I approve of. It makes him a more interesting protagonist and the gameplay (to me) more compelling when combat is an option that is largely taken entirely off the table. That's what I want to see return and I am afraid their emphasis may be elsewhere.
I still don't like his redesign. You know why? Because he's wearing a cape. Capes are things superheros wear, capes are what fancy nobles and royalty wear. Its something you wear when you want or expect to be noticed.
In T1&2 Garret wore a cloak. It's a big difference, the cloak drapes over his entire body to the ground. When you see a figure in a cloak with the hood up it ensures that the only description you can really give is an estimation of their height. The cape does nothing, if anything it's a hindrance to his mobility and makes him stick out more, especially now that he appears to be a ninja.
I think more than anything I want them to keep the feel of Thief intact, and this refers to the style and voice work and the cutscenes. Thief 3 already ruined this with its horrible in engine cutscenes, but in 1 & 2 you never really see Garret. It's amazing how attached you get to this guy, but you never really see him, he is such a good thief he even hides from the player. You catch a glimpse of half his face here and there, and there are a few sketches in some of the mission intros/outros. In the full blown cutscenes you only ever see a silhouette, the animated scenes and the drawings are all inconsistent in their depiction of him, something that I especially love as it evokes a sort of series of poor witness statements compiled into a police photo fit.
But this is a modern game so we're probably going to have be all cinematic and watch cinematic cutscenes and fancy scripted events and dialogue and blargh.
I sort of hope we won't have a hub world and they just go from mission to mission but make the maps all huge like the original, but I'm not really holding my breath on that one.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
For the record, I really didn't really like that game except for one level (which is stand out fantastic I should say) and the fact they (IIRC) removed the idea of expert mode preventing you from killing anyone (it's been some time). I consider the first two games what this should emulate.
Again what I really want to hear is that expert mode (as it was) in the first two games is back, but I am getting a distinct feeling they may be focusing on combat and other aspects to put that into the game. While yes, I can indeed play dishonored if I feel the need to without killing anyone, it is never enforced in any way at all in Dishonored bar some differences in guards/weepers/story. In thief, it's the fact expert enforces you to not kill anyone as a specific character trait of Garret that I approve of. It makes him a more interesting protagonist and the gameplay (to me) more compelling when combat is an option that is largely taken entirely off the table. That's what I want to see return and I am afraid their emphasis may be elsewhere.
T3 is not that great, it's true. They changed too much and tried to be too current and it doesn't work. The change in engine leading to these tiny level sections is the obvious culprit and well known, but even the movement in T3 feels bad. It's...chunky, is the only way I can think to describe it. They put his arms/legs in as being visible (his whole body is there really and first person just moves the camera to his face) and its quite distracting, there is also an absurd amount of head bob and general swaying left and right as you feel each leg moving for the next step. You never move smoothly, it makes me feel a bit like I've been put in the body of a four legged animal and can't quite get to grips with fairly basic movements like turning in a circle.
And the hub world is tedious and irritating. Hub worlds/open cities don't work in little sections with a load screen. It's also incredibly easy, even on expert, because you can just arrow every guard in the game in the head to insta-kill them as the only restriction is on killing non-combatants.
It still has some good levels and the animated cutscenes are fantastic.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
0
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
While there were some advancements in Deadly Shadows that I kind of raised an eyebrow on (wall-climbing gloves instead of rope arrows? lol!) I was thoroughly impressed with the game. It's true that not seeing Garrett was something that was ruined by Deadly Shadows, you could just stare at his magnificence if you chose to, but there are so many things that Deadly Shadows did so well. Expert mode read "don't kill anyone", now it may have meant "don't kill any non-combatants" and you were free to kill the guards, I wouldn't know, I never tested the theory, I read it as "don't kill anyone". The wonderful things they did with the shadows, with sounds, with the Artificial Intelligence of the guards, which, for its time, was amazing, all these things made me so happy. Yes, it was different from the first two Thief's, but I think it was a good kind of different. Perhaps, just perhaps, this fourth Thief will be different, but in a good way also.
Aesthetics are important, and it really looks like they're moving away from "true" Thief aesthetics, capes, ninja-garb, ninja-type weapons and all that. That's totally a "minus" in my book, not a deal-breaker yet, though. Although, with the current hullabaloo about Square Enix and their "failure" of Tomb Raider (5 million copies in one week isn't enough, apparently), I'm actually starting to doubt whether they'll even give Thief 4 the chance to see the light of day.
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Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
For the record, I really didn't really like that game except for one level (which is stand out fantastic I should say) and the fact they (IIRC) removed the idea of expert mode preventing you from killing anyone (it's been some time). I consider the first two games what this should emulate.
Again what I really want to hear is that expert mode (as it was) in the first two games is back, but I am getting a distinct feeling they may be focusing on combat and other aspects to put that into the game. While yes, I can indeed play dishonored if I feel the need to without killing anyone, it is never enforced in any way at all in Dishonored bar some differences in guards/weepers/story. In thief, it's the fact expert enforces you to not kill anyone as a specific character trait of Garret that I approve of. It makes him a more interesting protagonist and the gameplay (to me) more compelling when combat is an option that is largely taken entirely off the table. That's what I want to see return and I am afraid their emphasis may be elsewhere.
T3 is not that great, it's true. They changed too much and tried to be too current and it doesn't work. The change in engine leading to these tiny level sections is the obvious culprit and well known, but even the movement in T3 feels bad. It's...chunky, is the only way I can think to describe it. They put his arms/legs in as being visible (his whole body is there really and first person just moves the camera to his face) and its quite distracting, there is also an absurd amount of head bob and general swaying left and right as you feel each leg moving for the next step. You never move smoothly, it makes me feel a bit like I've been put in the body of a four legged animal and can't quite get to grips with fairly basic movements like turning in a circle.
And the hub world is tedious and irritating. Hub worlds/open cities don't work in little sections with a load screen. It's also incredibly easy, even on expert, because you can just arrow every guard in the game in the head to insta-kill them as the only restriction is on killing non-combatants.
It still has some good levels and the animated cutscenes are fantastic.
Plus, it looks better. Thief 1 and 2 looked bad even when they came out. Very much behind the curve and the visuals never fit the mechanics they wanted (hence having an orb tell you when you're in shadows instead of, you know, actually having shadows).
The perfect Thief game is somewhere between Thief 2 and 3. Keeping the design, freedom and mechanics of the second, but the improved tone, visuals and narrative of the third.
Also, it's strange that people would want arbitrary restrictions enforced by the game. Such as not being able to kill anyone. Surely that takes away any impact that choice has. At least in Dishonored, if you don't kill anyone it is because you chose not to. Including assassination targets. Whether the consequences were tangible or not (in my opinion they were) is only half the story.
Making the game enter a fail state because you didn't play it as they wanted you to is the opposite of what I want in games. In Dishonored, if you're caught, you can kills the guards that found you and proceed on, the game having developed into a new experience rather than defaulting to a failed one. Much more fluid.
Savescumming is not something I want in games produced in 2013.
+1
NEO|PhyteThey follow the stars, bound together.Strands in a braid till the end.Registered Userregular
Also, it's strange that people would want arbitrary restrictions enforced by the game. Such as not being able to kill anyone. Surely that takes away any impact that choice has. At least in Dishonored, if you don't kill anyone it is because you chose not to. Including assassination targets. Whether the consequences were tangible or not (in my opinion they were) is only half the story.
Making the game enter a fail state because you didn't play it as they wanted you to is the opposite of what I want in games. In Dishonored, if you're caught, you can kills the guards that found you and proceed on, the game having developed into a new experience rather than defaulting to a failed one. Much more fluid.
Savescumming is not something I want in games produced in 2013.
The entire point of the 'arbitrary' restrictions is to add difficulty. Not killing anyone? Fairly standard, Garret is a thief, not a murderer. Not knocking anyone out? You're trying to frame someone, tapping guards on the head would complicate matters. Explore as much of the place as possible without getting spotted? You're preparing for the actual heist, if they spot you now, they'll massively increase security when it's showtime.
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
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0
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Saying and showing are two entirely different concepts. I am becoming very unenthused with what they are showing/highlighting gameplay wise.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
For the record, I really didn't really like that game except for one level (which is stand out fantastic I should say) and the fact they (IIRC) removed the idea of expert mode preventing you from killing anyone (it's been some time). I consider the first two games what this should emulate.
Again what I really want to hear is that expert mode (as it was) in the first two games is back, but I am getting a distinct feeling they may be focusing on combat and other aspects to put that into the game. While yes, I can indeed play dishonored if I feel the need to without killing anyone, it is never enforced in any way at all in Dishonored bar some differences in guards/weepers/story. In thief, it's the fact expert enforces you to not kill anyone as a specific character trait of Garret that I approve of. It makes him a more interesting protagonist and the gameplay (to me) more compelling when combat is an option that is largely taken entirely off the table. That's what I want to see return and I am afraid their emphasis may be elsewhere.
T3 is not that great, it's true. They changed too much and tried to be too current and it doesn't work. The change in engine leading to these tiny level sections is the obvious culprit and well known, but even the movement in T3 feels bad. It's...chunky, is the only way I can think to describe it. They put his arms/legs in as being visible (his whole body is there really and first person just moves the camera to his face) and its quite distracting, there is also an absurd amount of head bob and general swaying left and right as you feel each leg moving for the next step. You never move smoothly, it makes me feel a bit like I've been put in the body of a four legged animal and can't quite get to grips with fairly basic movements like turning in a circle.
And the hub world is tedious and irritating. Hub worlds/open cities don't work in little sections with a load screen. It's also incredibly easy, even on expert, because you can just arrow every guard in the game in the head to insta-kill them as the only restriction is on killing non-combatants.
It still has some good levels and the animated cutscenes are fantastic.
Plus, it looks better. Thief 1 and 2 looked bad even when they came out. Very much behind the curve and the visuals never fit the mechanics they wanted (hence having an orb tell you when you're in shadows instead of, you know, actually having shadows).
The perfect Thief game is somewhere between Thief 2 and 3. Keeping the design, freedom and mechanics of the second, but the improved tone, visuals and narrative of the third.
Also, it's strange that people would want arbitrary restrictions enforced by the game. Such as not being able to kill anyone. Surely that takes away any impact that choice has. At least in Dishonored, if you don't kill anyone it is because you chose not to. Including assassination targets. Whether the consequences were tangible or not (in my opinion they were) is only half the story.
Making the game enter a fail state because you didn't play it as they wanted you to is the opposite of what I want in games. In Dishonored, if you're caught, you can kills the guards that found you and proceed on, the game having developed into a new experience rather than defaulting to a failed one. Much more fluid.
Savescumming is not something I want in games produced in 2013.
It's somewhat about the lack of incentive to do things the right way. Yes, I am aware of how goosey that sounds, but it's kind of the basis of the angst, at least from me. Thief isn't really about decisions, or freedom of doing things any which way you want, that's what Dishonored does, and it does it admirably. Thief is, by the very definition of the series' title, a game that is about being ghostly-stealthy and nabbing everything worth more than a hay penny. Everything else is a distraction and not "Thief".
Getting caught, and that forcing a giant "fuck you, you failed" screen, is, oddly, an integral part of the Thief experience. At least for me, and, from what I've read, many of the other Thief fans here in this forum.
I must concede your viewpoint, though. You are, as much as I hate to admit it, absolutely right. When you are given choices in any game, instead of being forced to do things one way only, there is a clear benefit to all people, rather than just a select few in the fanbase. Being a member of the select few in the fanbase, I am somewhat unhappy with it, but, as long as I do not get precluded from doing things the right way, then there is nothing that is keeping me from being happy with the title. The issue comes into play that, once the game is out, and some people are going to be talking about the glorious bloodbaths they had, and I'm going to cringe and die a little inside, and the little voice in my head will whisper "but they're doing it the wrong way! Mutiny!". Not being of a particular internet species that enjoys in sowing flame-wars I'll say nothing, but I will be sad. Then, perhaps, I'll just come in here and teach the masses by regaling them with stories of how I did it the right way.
Pesonally, the biggest hump for me to get over is my mind being stuck that Garret is not a ninja; this is, obviously, very much separate from the vision of Garrett that the current developers have. I hate ninjas! There's nothing nice about ninjas, they're bloodthirsty cross-dressing cowardly dealers of poison and kidnapping! This current trend about how awesome and cool and honorable ninjas are is kind of disturbing to me, but that's another topic altogether. For the record, even though my kids love Jake and the Neverland Pirates, I'll never accept pirates as anything "cool", to me, they're just a murderous, thieving, lot of scum. :P
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited April 2013
I'm of the "If you don't like it, play those other games" opinion.
I like restrictions in thief. They force you to fully explore the beautifully rich stealth instead of just brutally murdering everyone with arrows. I am very much of the opinion that "freedom" does not apply to an expert difficulty mode. It's not like you were forced not to kill people in normal. You could murder as you wanted in most levels. You wanna be an expert thief? Well now you gotta curtail some of that bloodlust boy. You don't like it? Too bad. It's thief, not murder death kill 3.
In a related note how I wish there was a MDK 3.
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MDK stands for Murder Death Kill? Seriously, I've never actually figured out what the acronym stands for, even though it's probably right there on the boxes I've bought (I bought MDK 1 probably 2 times, and MDK 2 at least 3 times...damn jewel cases and their lack of survival in the sun).
Here's what the developers can do. Have a mode where people are playing "Dishonored Splintered Creed: Garret Does Lolz", but, include in there an option to do a "Classic Thief" gameplay. I don't care if I have to do a playthrough of the game on "normal" to unlock it. As long as the option is there, I will be mollified, and Square Enix can has all my money.
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Here's what the developers can do. Have a mode where people are playing "Dishonored Splintered Creed: Garret Does Lolz", but, include in there an option to do a "Classic Thief" gameplay. I don't care if I have to do a playthrough of the game on "normal" to unlock it. As long as the option is there, I will be mollified, and Square Enix can has all my money.
Yeah they should totally cater to the fact that you are bad at stealth games and make it so that you don't actually have to do stealth so that you don't feel so worthless about your game playing ability.
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. If you don't like stealth go buy another game and don't demand the devs screw this one up.
There are a zillion games where you slaughter millions of people to achieve your goals. Let us have one single fucking game series that goes against the trope. Its about time we started saying "if you can't play the game as its meant to be played, you don't deserve to win it."
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That's even dumber than what I thought it meant.
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http://kotaku.com/heres-the-first-trailer-for-the-thief-reboot-update-464907730
Square Enix can fuck off and die.
Eh, I'm not bothered by the tag line thing. Its not like Monaco is the first to use it. Its a pretty common turn of phrase.
Actually, I really liked the trailer. I remain skeptical, but the trailer was pretty cool.
But not when there's another game coming out like right now that's already using it.
Thief: Deadly Shadows used the tagline as well back in the day. Specifically, Stephen Russell said it in I think the 2nd trailer if my memory serves correctly. I'll admit it's a little disappointing no to have Stephen Russell, but at the same time given how much older Stephen Russell is I can see why they might have chosen a younger voice actor for the character. After hearing Stephen Russell in Skyrim (he was Belethor, and Mercer Frey), I can see how an older man's voice might seem a little odd coming from a character that is younger.
Oddly enough, after playing Bioshock Infinite I couldn't help but think that Troy Baker could voice Garrett very well. I kept thinking Dewitt sounded very much like Garrett at times in that game.
This is just me, but I had never even heard of Monaco and they've been sitting on the line since before Deadly Shadows? It's not a unique line, there has to be a statute of limitations on this kind of thing.
The aesthetic looks agreeable, now I just want to see how they've balanced lethal approaches versus sneaking. That'll be the main thing that differentiates this between being a Thief game or a grimdark Dishonored.
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Preferably it will be Thiefy, though.
But Dishonored isn't Thief.
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I really think of the complaints people have had, this is probably the most completely irrelevant. Deadly Shadows used it already from a long time ago and I can't remember even when Monaco was even announced to think they took it from that game (I only know about the impending XBLA release this month, that I am vastly looking forward to). Besides that, Thief 4 is probably still a year or more off anyway. I really don't see the relevance.
I am far more bothered by the ninja flipping and blowing things up personally. Hopefully that is just "This is the stuff we're doing to get people excited in the trailer" and not what the game will function like (or encourage). I am really worried if they will replicate the old games expert difficulty in it.
I sort of figured you'd pick up on that one actually. Guess I was wrong.
So basically my stance has gone from what it was previously to what it was previously with nary a blip upon the react-o-meter. I only mentioned the ghost thing because it didn't really feel like something you'd naturally say. It had the feel of a reference.
I just watched one of the trailers for Deadly Shadows (mainly looking for the tagline Operative mentioned), and there were a ton of shots of stabbing guards and shooting arrows at faces.
Yes because condensing ten hours of careful, methodical sneaking and climbing into a two minute sizzle video makes more sense. Watch the Dishonored trailer. Watch the Human Revolution trailer. Heck, watch any Splinter Cell trailer ever for any instalment.
I played all of those games without killing anyone, without alerting guards, without even being seen. Yet the marketing would have you believe they are action heavy combat games.
E3 will be the watershed. If we see it being played, like we saw Dishonored, and the developers can talk through the non-sizzle elements, then the issue will be settled. But until then, don't fret. Remember what Ken Levine said about the Bioshock Infinite boxart? That applies here more than ever.
I've read some convincing posts over at GAF that make the case for it not being entirely CGI, merely pre-rendered or enhanced in-engine footage. Especially when you go frame by frame and see texture artifacts and things of that nature. Obviously the animations are all baked, and I don't think it's one of those Killzone 2 bullshot extravaganzas. But nor do I think this is a Human Revolution 'We got the Final Fantasy guys to completely CGI this bitch' type of deal. Because it's behind the curve significantly if that is the case.
Also, with regard to Stephen Russell doing the voice. I'm torn really. On one hand, it's a Hayter kind of situation. It's an Ironside kind of deal. He is Garrett and anyone else just sounds wrong. But, both MGS and Splinter Cell have gotten new voice actors for their iconic main characters and I feel they kind of have to. Adam Jensen in Human Revolution was essentially the JC voice anyway. It was a continuation of the tone and the feel. But they have to do the same with Thief. Distinguish themselves as their own title, otherwise we end up with a Tomb Raider Legends kind of situation, where it feels like one big parody, rather than its own frontier.
It's worth noting that Deadly Shadows itself, was considered a bit of a departure from Thief's traditional setup back in the day (along with a similar level of apprehension and worry I might add).
This is the trailer I was talking about. After rewatching it, he doesn't use the exact same tagline - just a very very similar one at around 1:26 in the video.
Also Garrett kills a guard in the intro to both Thief 1 & 2.
Probably just needed to stew a little while. Regardless of how they do it, I'm going to buy this game, and I'm going to play it my way, regardless. Lots of stealthy sneaking, lots of stealing, lots of glorious shiny baubles finding their way into my pockets :P
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Yeah but I don't care about graphics so knowing it's post processed spiffied up inengine doesn't mean anything. It's still not going to be gameplay.
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Now you'd think that marketting is about showing you the product but this is not in fact how successful marketting works because we as human beings do not make a whole lot of sense as a general rule.
I can show you a CGI movie of orcs screaming at humans, and you won't even be able to tell me if it's an RTS, RPG, or Action, without knowing the specific design-style of certain companies that happen to be very prevalent in Orcs and Humans.
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That is all you need to secure a purchase in the majority of cases. A flicker of unspecified interest. A well directed sequence like the above is a good way of capturing that.
It doesn't work on you and me because we think about it, take it more seriously, hell actually realise what's going on at all, than the majority of the market. They also don't need to worry about us with a trailer like this because we are going to make our decision based on find out more out of self interest. They know we will take the time to read up on interviews and previews and all that jazz.
Specifically it's mass marketting.
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For the record, I really didn't really like that game except for one level (which is stand out fantastic I should say) and the fact they (IIRC) removed the idea of expert mode preventing you from killing anyone (it's been some time). I consider the first two games what this should emulate.
Again what I really want to hear is that expert mode (as it was) in the first two games is back, but I am getting a distinct feeling they may be focusing on combat and other aspects to put that into the game. While yes, I can indeed play dishonored if I feel the need to without killing anyone, it is never enforced in any way at all in Dishonored bar some differences in guards/weepers/story. In thief, it's the fact expert enforces you to not kill anyone as a specific character trait of Garret that I approve of. It makes him a more interesting protagonist and the gameplay (to me) more compelling when combat is an option that is largely taken entirely off the table. That's what I want to see return and I am afraid their emphasis may be elsewhere.
In T1&2 Garret wore a cloak. It's a big difference, the cloak drapes over his entire body to the ground. When you see a figure in a cloak with the hood up it ensures that the only description you can really give is an estimation of their height. The cape does nothing, if anything it's a hindrance to his mobility and makes him stick out more, especially now that he appears to be a ninja.
I think more than anything I want them to keep the feel of Thief intact, and this refers to the style and voice work and the cutscenes. Thief 3 already ruined this with its horrible in engine cutscenes, but in 1 & 2 you never really see Garret. It's amazing how attached you get to this guy, but you never really see him, he is such a good thief he even hides from the player. You catch a glimpse of half his face here and there, and there are a few sketches in some of the mission intros/outros. In the full blown cutscenes you only ever see a silhouette, the animated scenes and the drawings are all inconsistent in their depiction of him, something that I especially love as it evokes a sort of series of poor witness statements compiled into a police photo fit.
But this is a modern game so we're probably going to have be all cinematic and watch cinematic cutscenes and fancy scripted events and dialogue and blargh.
I sort of hope we won't have a hub world and they just go from mission to mission but make the maps all huge like the original, but I'm not really holding my breath on that one.
T3 is not that great, it's true. They changed too much and tried to be too current and it doesn't work. The change in engine leading to these tiny level sections is the obvious culprit and well known, but even the movement in T3 feels bad. It's...chunky, is the only way I can think to describe it. They put his arms/legs in as being visible (his whole body is there really and first person just moves the camera to his face) and its quite distracting, there is also an absurd amount of head bob and general swaying left and right as you feel each leg moving for the next step. You never move smoothly, it makes me feel a bit like I've been put in the body of a four legged animal and can't quite get to grips with fairly basic movements like turning in a circle.
And the hub world is tedious and irritating. Hub worlds/open cities don't work in little sections with a load screen. It's also incredibly easy, even on expert, because you can just arrow every guard in the game in the head to insta-kill them as the only restriction is on killing non-combatants.
It still has some good levels and the animated cutscenes are fantastic.
Aesthetics are important, and it really looks like they're moving away from "true" Thief aesthetics, capes, ninja-garb, ninja-type weapons and all that. That's totally a "minus" in my book, not a deal-breaker yet, though. Although, with the current hullabaloo about Square Enix and their "failure" of Tomb Raider (5 million copies in one week isn't enough, apparently), I'm actually starting to doubt whether they'll even give Thief 4 the chance to see the light of day.
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Plus, it looks better. Thief 1 and 2 looked bad even when they came out. Very much behind the curve and the visuals never fit the mechanics they wanted (hence having an orb tell you when you're in shadows instead of, you know, actually having shadows).
The perfect Thief game is somewhere between Thief 2 and 3. Keeping the design, freedom and mechanics of the second, but the improved tone, visuals and narrative of the third.
Also, it's strange that people would want arbitrary restrictions enforced by the game. Such as not being able to kill anyone. Surely that takes away any impact that choice has. At least in Dishonored, if you don't kill anyone it is because you chose not to. Including assassination targets. Whether the consequences were tangible or not (in my opinion they were) is only half the story.
Making the game enter a fail state because you didn't play it as they wanted you to is the opposite of what I want in games. In Dishonored, if you're caught, you can kills the guards that found you and proceed on, the game having developed into a new experience rather than defaulting to a failed one. Much more fluid.
Savescumming is not something I want in games produced in 2013.
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It's somewhat about the lack of incentive to do things the right way. Yes, I am aware of how goosey that sounds, but it's kind of the basis of the angst, at least from me. Thief isn't really about decisions, or freedom of doing things any which way you want, that's what Dishonored does, and it does it admirably. Thief is, by the very definition of the series' title, a game that is about being ghostly-stealthy and nabbing everything worth more than a hay penny. Everything else is a distraction and not "Thief".
Getting caught, and that forcing a giant "fuck you, you failed" screen, is, oddly, an integral part of the Thief experience. At least for me, and, from what I've read, many of the other Thief fans here in this forum.
I must concede your viewpoint, though. You are, as much as I hate to admit it, absolutely right. When you are given choices in any game, instead of being forced to do things one way only, there is a clear benefit to all people, rather than just a select few in the fanbase. Being a member of the select few in the fanbase, I am somewhat unhappy with it, but, as long as I do not get precluded from doing things the right way, then there is nothing that is keeping me from being happy with the title. The issue comes into play that, once the game is out, and some people are going to be talking about the glorious bloodbaths they had, and I'm going to cringe and die a little inside, and the little voice in my head will whisper "but they're doing it the wrong way! Mutiny!". Not being of a particular internet species that enjoys in sowing flame-wars I'll say nothing, but I will be sad. Then, perhaps, I'll just come in here and teach the masses by regaling them with stories of how I did it the right way.
Pesonally, the biggest hump for me to get over is my mind being stuck that Garret is not a ninja; this is, obviously, very much separate from the vision of Garrett that the current developers have. I hate ninjas! There's nothing nice about ninjas, they're bloodthirsty cross-dressing cowardly dealers of poison and kidnapping! This current trend about how awesome and cool and honorable ninjas are is kind of disturbing to me, but that's another topic altogether. For the record, even though my kids love Jake and the Neverland Pirates, I'll never accept pirates as anything "cool", to me, they're just a murderous, thieving, lot of scum. :P
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I like restrictions in thief. They force you to fully explore the beautifully rich stealth instead of just brutally murdering everyone with arrows. I am very much of the opinion that "freedom" does not apply to an expert difficulty mode. It's not like you were forced not to kill people in normal. You could murder as you wanted in most levels. You wanna be an expert thief? Well now you gotta curtail some of that bloodlust boy. You don't like it? Too bad. It's thief, not murder death kill 3.
In a related note how I wish there was a MDK 3.
Here's what the developers can do. Have a mode where people are playing "Dishonored Splintered Creed: Garret Does Lolz", but, include in there an option to do a "Classic Thief" gameplay. I don't care if I have to do a playthrough of the game on "normal" to unlock it. As long as the option is there, I will be mollified, and Square Enix can has all my money.
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Yes, I'm being sarcastic. If you don't like stealth go buy another game and don't demand the devs screw this one up.
There are a zillion games where you slaughter millions of people to achieve your goals. Let us have one single fucking game series that goes against the trope. Its about time we started saying "if you can't play the game as its meant to be played, you don't deserve to win it."