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"Always On" - Telling people to move is not a solution.

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  • MordaRazgromMordaRazgrom Морда Разгром Ruling the Taffer KingdomRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Pirates are thieves and should be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. However, game companies need to stop worrying about protecting their product, and instead focus on adding value to it. Instead of adding more DRM to their products, they should just go after the criminals who steal their product all the while making their products more attractive to potential consumers. Don't change the product or make it more restrictive. Make there be consequences for stealing the product, not the other way around.

    The issue is treating the average consumer like criminals, not the people who pirate not actually being criminals.

    No, I'm really saying that you can't criminalize the entire world and then expect "criminal" to mean something bad anymore. You're not making people feel bad about the thing they are just going to do, you are instead watering down social concepts which should remain hard. People should feel bad for being a criminal or a thief. If you make "thief" mean "Everyone with a beating heart" then "thief" has the same potency as "flower" or "kitten." You want to keep throwing it into the conversation to make people realize how SERIOUS this SERIOUS situation is, yet you're ultimately getting the same effect as posting a bunch of cat pictures with the intent of making people angry.

    Well, as with my tactic with my friends, I really do want people to come face-to-face with ugly truths if they're pirating software. Nearly everyone I talk to who actively pirates is very delusional about whether they're a criminal or not. Some who accept it even laugh it off, putting quotes around it like it's a joke: "yeah, I know I'm a 'criminal' hahaha". It is a serious thing, and I am passionate enough about it that it rubs me the wrong way when people try to minimalize it. My own halo isn't untarnished, I did unsavory things back when I was young for those exact reasons, yet I grew out of it, and am hoping that others do too.

    Monster Hunter Tri code/username: 1MF42Z (Morda)
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  • LarsLars Registered User regular
    Shifting gears a bit, I was wondering exactly how Microsoft would ever be able to achieve an "always-online" console in the theoretical event that they attempt to do so.

    Ok, so the basic idea is the console sends a signal to them, they check it out, send a signal back to the console, and the console continues to work.

    The problem is, that signal will be cracked and reproduced by pirates. You can argue when it will happen, but it's almost certainly a fact that it will happen.

    Diablo III was able to get away with it because it wasn't just a signal, but part of their game (AI, calculations, etc.) was actually being run on their servers instead of locally, so users did not have access to that information. However, I don't see Microsoft dedicating storage for every game they release to do something like that (without even getting into how it may effect multiplatform titles if the XBox version has to have part of it stored online or something). Though even in Diablo III's case people were able to get rudimentary pirated versions running pretty early on (no idea if they ever got better versions, I stopped paying attention to Diablo III some time ago).

    So that leaves them relying on the console itself sending a universal signal that allows the console to run. In which case the first time the signal is faked the pirate never has to take their console online again and can now play what they want (at least of currently released games, future games may include forced updates). Now their anti-piracy measures theoretically lead to more people pirating as it's the only way for some of them to play at all.

    Unless they are just banking so hard on the whole media hub side of the coin where they think people couldn't possibly ever want their console to be offline, so faking the signal and keeping it offline shouldn't be an option to most of their audience. I'm not sure how realistic a wager that would be though.

  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Pirates are thieves and should be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. However, game companies need to stop worrying about protecting their product, and instead focus on adding value to it. Instead of adding more DRM to their products, they should just go after the criminals who steal their product all the while making their products more attractive to potential consumers. Don't change the product or make it more restrictive. Make there be consequences for stealing the product, not the other way around.

    The issue is treating the average consumer like criminals, not the people who pirate not actually being criminals.

    No, I'm really saying that you can't criminalize the entire world and then expect "criminal" to mean something bad anymore. You're not making people feel bad about the thing they are just going to do, you are instead watering down social concepts which should remain hard. People should feel bad for being a criminal or a thief. If you make "thief" mean "Everyone with a beating heart" then "thief" has the same potency as "flower" or "kitten." You want to keep throwing it into the conversation to make people realize how SERIOUS this SERIOUS situation is, yet you're ultimately getting the same effect as posting a bunch of cat pictures with the intent of making people angry.

    Well, as with my tactic with my friends, I really do want people to come face-to-face with ugly truths if they're pirating software. Nearly everyone I talk to who actively pirates is very delusional about whether they're a criminal or not. Some who accept it even laugh it off, putting quotes around it like it's a joke: "yeah, I know I'm a 'criminal' hahaha". It is a serious thing, and I am passionate enough about it that it rubs me the wrong way when people try to minimalize it. My own halo isn't untarnished, I did unsavory things back when I was young for those exact reasons, yet I grew out of it, and am hoping that others do too.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it actually a bad thing, though. Generally they correlate, but not always. I'm not going to go on a crusade against grandmothers that smoke pot for example. They're "criminals" but who gives a fuck? Nobody sane.

    That's what you run into when you try to mountain out of molehill the piracy situation. You end up looking ridiculous.


    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
    Drovek
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Cambiata wrote: »
    These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Pirates are thieves and should be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. However, game companies need to stop worrying about protecting their product, and instead focus on adding value to it. Instead of adding more DRM to their products, they should just go after the criminals who steal their product all the while making their products more attractive to potential consumers. Don't change the product or make it more restrictive. Make there be consequences for stealing the product, not the other way around.

    The issue is treating the average consumer like criminals, not the people who pirate not actually being criminals.

    No, I'm really saying that you can't criminalize the entire world and then expect "criminal" to mean something bad anymore. You're not making people feel bad about the thing they are just going to do, you are instead watering down social concepts which should remain hard. People should feel bad for being a criminal or a thief. If you make "thief" mean "Everyone with a beating heart" then "thief" has the same potency as "flower" or "kitten." You want to keep throwing it into the conversation to make people realize how SERIOUS this SERIOUS situation is, yet you're ultimately getting the same effect as posting a bunch of cat pictures with the intent of making people angry.

    Breaking laws is illegal. Doing something illegal knowingly makes you a criminal. Criminals should be prosecuted for crimes they commit.

    I don't know how calling a criminal action criminal is watering down what society considers a criminal action.

    When you don't want to pay the price for something, you have two options. Either you can not purchase and consume that thing, or steal it and break the law. Breaking the law has consequences, one of those being being prosecuted for those actions. Petty crime is still crime, and should be treated by society as such. If we feel that the consequences of breaking these laws are unjust, we need to change the laws, not pretend that we're not committing criminal acts by breaking the laws.
    Death of Rats, are you seriously saying that you and everyone else in this thread should be prosecuted for (hey, piracy of movies is still a big nono on this forum)

    I'm saying that people who knowingly break the law should accept the fact that there could be consequences for their actions. And that the victims of crime should feel free to prosecute those who perpetrate crimes against them if they feel prosecution is warranted without fearing backlash from society. We have a justice system and laws for a reason.

    Death of Rats on
    No I don't.
  • MordaRazgromMordaRazgrom Морда Разгром Ruling the Taffer KingdomRegistered User regular
    Derrick wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    These two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Pirates are thieves and should be prosecuted for the crimes they commit. However, game companies need to stop worrying about protecting their product, and instead focus on adding value to it. Instead of adding more DRM to their products, they should just go after the criminals who steal their product all the while making their products more attractive to potential consumers. Don't change the product or make it more restrictive. Make there be consequences for stealing the product, not the other way around.

    The issue is treating the average consumer like criminals, not the people who pirate not actually being criminals.

    No, I'm really saying that you can't criminalize the entire world and then expect "criminal" to mean something bad anymore. You're not making people feel bad about the thing they are just going to do, you are instead watering down social concepts which should remain hard. People should feel bad for being a criminal or a thief. If you make "thief" mean "Everyone with a beating heart" then "thief" has the same potency as "flower" or "kitten." You want to keep throwing it into the conversation to make people realize how SERIOUS this SERIOUS situation is, yet you're ultimately getting the same effect as posting a bunch of cat pictures with the intent of making people angry.

    Well, as with my tactic with my friends, I really do want people to come face-to-face with ugly truths if they're pirating software. Nearly everyone I talk to who actively pirates is very delusional about whether they're a criminal or not. Some who accept it even laugh it off, putting quotes around it like it's a joke: "yeah, I know I'm a 'criminal' hahaha". It is a serious thing, and I am passionate enough about it that it rubs me the wrong way when people try to minimalize it. My own halo isn't untarnished, I did unsavory things back when I was young for those exact reasons, yet I grew out of it, and am hoping that others do too.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it actually a bad thing, though. Generally they correlate, but not always. I'm not going to go on a crusade against grandmothers that smoke pot for example. They're "criminals" but who gives a fuck? Nobody sane.

    That's what you run into when you try to mountain out of molehill the piracy situation. You end up looking ridiculous.


    Oh I know that. Gaming population has this really frustrating habit of not seeing piracy as a bad thing. Not something I can win, but not something I'm willing to back down on, either. Probably a big reason why I generally support DRM mechanics, because the gaming population just hasn't shown itself to me as something that can be trusted.

    Monster Hunter Tri code/username: 1MF42Z (Morda)
    WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
    Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
    WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
    Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
    Shadowhope
  • CuvisTheConquerorCuvisTheConqueror They always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered User regular
    Breaking laws is illegal. Doing something illegal knowingly makes you a criminal. Criminals should be prosecuted for crimes they commit.

    I feel obligated to point out that sharing files via P2P services is generally considered a civil liability, not a criminal act, and downloading without sharing (as from Rapidshare or Usenet) is generally not considered even that.

    xderwsaxganu.png
    CambiataAgahnim
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    I think "criminal" in general just isn't as strong a term in the information age.

    For instance, we know that the major banks are laundering money for organized crime. No one does anything about it.

    A rich kid gets busted for cocaine use, and still gets to be President. Poor kids get busted for MJ and get their lives ruined.

    There's little to no equality under the law, so people give less of a damn about breaking it. Not consciously specifically, but it's just bleeding into culture (and not slowly either). Companies are taking pains to make things illegal that shouldn't be (like jailbreaking a phone you own, for example).

    The entire definition is breaking down, so you can't really expect to shame people by calling them criminals. Criminal according to who? At most you end up looking like an asshole that people roll their eyes to.

    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
    CuvisTheConquerorDrovekShadowhopeXenogear_0001
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    subedii wrote: »
    Snork wrote: »
    I'm sure it's been said in this thread before, but we REALLY need to stop equating software piracy with stealing. I'm sure other people may feel very differently, but to me the key ethical transgression of theft is the deprivation- that you are taking something from someone, and now you have it and they don't. The thing itself, not some financial value that is attached to it.
    In no world is stealing a car EVER going to be equatable to pirating software until you can photocopy a car and drive the photocopy away. Lost potential revenue from piracy is assuredly a thing, but as has been discussed in this thread it is VERY difficult to calculate, and it is extremely wrongheaded to assume 1 instance of piracy = 1 game unit not sold. I've done more than my share of illegal downloadin' and all that, but I honestly cannot think of the last time I pirated something that was within my power to buy.
    I'm sure there's some kind of hard legal definition I'm unaware of that might contradict me, but in my mind theft is when you TAKE something. When you steal something, the person you stole it from doesn't have it anymore. Software piracy is not the same thing.

    Here's what you're missing... you're stealing the work done to produce that product. You're depriving the people who made that product the money that they deserve to get from anyone who plays that product.

    Basically you're missing the whole theory and ideas behind copyright, and why they exist. Without copyrights, there would be a lot less new art and science, because why work to discover/make things if people can just freely take them without being called what they are, criminals and thieves? It's only once a certain amount of time passes that these new ideas go into the public domain where they can be freely copied. This is done to encourage new work and protect non-physical creations. I know that the system is broken at the moment (thanks Disney Obama), but that doesn't mean that pirating a game is any less being a thief and a criminal.

    Which is why it's called Copyright Infringement. It's an important distinction to make, because Copyright, first and foremost, was never about "right", it was about convenience. It's the conflation of Copyright Infringement with Theft that is EXACTLY the reason that the "Disney" ruling you take note of came about. That Bono shouldn't have to live with these things being "stolen" from him, when it's really not about that.

    It's also called Copyright theft. You are quite literally stealing that copyrighted material for your own use. Copyrights are something you can steal. They're frankly a construct used to make ideas something that are protected from being stolen.

    Whilst I would suggest this is way more nuanced than simply "theft theft theft", I also feel that going into the nature of copyright and IP laws is beyond the scope of this thread. So if you want to continue this, you can PM me and we can pick it up from there.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Knowing or unknowing, you're a criminal. That's actually a big concept in our legal system.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Breaking laws is illegal. Doing something illegal knowingly makes you a criminal. Criminals should be prosecuted for crimes they commit.

    I feel obligated to point out that sharing files via P2P services is generally considered a civil liability, not a criminal act, and downloading without sharing (as from Rapidshare or Usenet) is generally not considered even that.

    Ah, I should have been more careful with my wording there. Either way, I feel pirates should feel comfortable with the consequences of their actions, and those consequences should be pursued by corporations. And beyond that they should be ignored when it comes to producing a product.

    I'm not going to shed a tear when 23 year old Joe Salvio gets sued for downloading Bioshock Infinite and a host of other games.

    Death of Rats on
    No I don't.
    CuvisTheConqueror
  • MordaRazgromMordaRazgrom Морда Разгром Ruling the Taffer KingdomRegistered User regular
    Derrick wrote: »
    I think "criminal" in general just isn't as strong a term in the information age.

    For instance, we know that the major banks are laundering money for organized crime. No one does anything about it.

    A rich kid gets busted for cocaine use, and still gets to be President. Poor kids get busted for MJ and get their lives ruined.

    There's little to no equality under the law, so people give less of a damn about breaking it. Not consciously specifically, but it's just bleeding into culture (and not slowly either). Companies are taking pains to make things illegal that shouldn't be (like jailbreaking a phone you own, for example).

    The entire definition is breaking down, so you can't really expect to shame people by calling them criminals. Criminal according to who? At most you end up looking like an asshole that people roll their eyes to.

    That's the risk you run of any internet argument, no?

    Still, I understand yours and others' points, I'm just uncompromising, just don't expect me to take anyone seriously if they say that they feel like they're wronged when a company is protecting themselves and hurting them, the "good guy" in the process.

    Monster Hunter Tri code/username: 1MF42Z (Morda)
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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    While I, as I said, refuse to pirate things these days, I'm not 100% agreed that piracy is a completely bad thing with no upside for the companies that have to endure it. In certain cases, the wide piracy of certain items is the exact reason the software is so successful. 12 year old artists pirate Adobe photoshop, upload their works to Deviantart, become good. Then they go out into the business world as corporate designers and artists, and when their boss asks which software they should buy for the company, the previous pirater says "Adobe photoshop." If that kid didn't get the years long experience with Photoshop, if Photoshop was unpirateable, then the kid would have spent years of his craft on some other software, and that other software would be the thing every corporate office would have to buy for its artists.

    Is there a similar symbiosis for game companies? I don't know. But trying to place software on the same level as a mugging really does not help your case if you're anti-piracy.

  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Welp, if we can't follow simple instructions then too bad!

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