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A long time ago, we used to be friends with [Veronica Mars]

AlectharAlecthar Alan ShoreWe're not territorial about that sort of thing, are we?Registered User regular
edited March 2013 in Debate and/or Discourse
5ish years ago there was a little show called Veronica Mars.

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Kristen Bell was in it, she played Veronica. Ms. Mars was a tough, snarky little blonde with serious trust issues, and detective skills good enough to bring down the worst criminals in Neptune, California.

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You see, Neptune is a town "without a middle class," and it turns out that even when most of your town is owned by rich, entitled assholes accustomed to buying their way out of trouble, there's some ugly stuff buried in people's closets: switched children, cults, date-rapes, etc. Of most concern to Veronica is the murder of her best friend, Lily Kane, played by Amanda Seyfried back when she hadn't lost so much weight.

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But Veronica's also a high school student, so she can't spend all her time in the seedy underworld of her hometown, she also has to spend some time in the seedy underworld of her high school, combating drug rings, stupid fraternities, date-rapes (non-consensual sex is a recurring issue in Neptune) and other stuff. She's alternatedly helped and hindered in her life by her dad, Keith Mars,

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her best friend Wallace,

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her ex-boyfriend Duncan

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Lily's nutjob of a former boyfriend Logan

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and a bunch of other supporting and recurring characters, both major and minor.

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Veronica Mars did an impressive job of stuffing noir into high school, and it's one of my personal favorite shows of all time. It ran for three seasons between 2004 and 2007, and they were all (mostly) great. It's readily available on DVD, as well as streaming online at theWB.com (if you live in the US, as I assume it's region-locked).

This is all important because the best thing ever has happened: a movie continuing the story has been Kickstarted. There's still a ton of time left, if you're a big fan of the show and would like to jump in on it. While Rob Thomas gets to work on my...I mean our movie, let's get talking about the best show ever about a high school aged private eye in a privileged California town.

Wow, Rob Thomas really found a niche there.

Alecthar on
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Posts

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I loved this show.

    Even the rocky third season was pretty good, but high school just seemed to be a better setting than college for what the show was going for. High school feels so all-consuming and closed off from everything else its just a better catalyst for drama than college. Also they totally sidelined Wallace in the third season, which blew goats, even if we got more Mac as part of the deal.

  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    That last series of this was super weak, particularly with how they wrapped up the plot and then still have a couple of episodes to fill. So they introduced a new mystery and it was all a bit boring.

    Hopefully this will be more a Serenity and less of a Jericho series 2. Regardless it does pave the way to try and refloat some beloved ips.

    Also, this film had better keep every cast at their original ages.

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    I imagine there's at least one or two cast members who've aged drastically in the intervening years.

    I mean Weevil looked like he aged about twenty years between seasons one and three.

  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo We are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourse Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I imagine there's at least one or two cast members who've aged drastically in the intervening years.

    I mean Weevil looked like he aged about twenty years between seasons one and three.

    They can deal with this the same way they did flashbacks in Studio 60.

    Backwards baseball caps.

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    I clearly have to go back and watch season three again because I have totally forgotten about the stuff that Thomas talks about on the Kickstarter page/the second half of season three in general.

    Steam: Mike Danger | PSN/NNID: remadeking | 3DS: 2079-9204-4075
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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    The back half of season three is really bad

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I imagine there's at least one or two cast members who've aged drastically in the intervening years.

    I mean Weevil looked like he aged about twenty years between seasons one and three.

    IIRC the events in the movie will take place during their 10-year school reunion, so this probably won't be a problem.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    I imagine there's at least one or two cast members who've aged drastically in the intervening years.

    I mean Weevil looked like he aged about twenty years between seasons one and three.

    IIRC the events in the movie will take place during their 10-year school reunion, so this probably won't be a problem.

    Does this mean we'll finally see Veronica as an FBI agent? :mrgreen:

  • jefe414jefe414 "My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter" Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered User regular
    Well Kristin Bell doesn't age. Keith Mars just finished up 5 years on Flashpoint and he still basically looks the same. Couldn't speak to the rest of the cast.

    Xbox Live: Jefe414
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    jefe414 wrote: »
    Well Kristin Bell doesn't age. Keith Mars just finished up 5 years on Flashpoint and he still basically looks the same. Couldn't speak to the rest of the cast.

    The actor who played Logan looked exactly the same on Moonlight.

  • Mike DangerMike Danger "Diane..." a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    I imagine there's at least one or two cast members who've aged drastically in the intervening years.

    I mean Weevil looked like he aged about twenty years between seasons one and three.

    IIRC the events in the movie will take place during their 10-year school reunion, so this probably won't be a problem.

    Does this mean we'll finally see Veronica as an FBI agent? :mrgreen:

    The Kickstarter page says she "hasn't taken a case" since the end of the show, but I guess that doesn't rule out her being an agent(?)

    Mike Danger on
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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    I had no idea this thread existed. But now I do! I am watching Veronica Mars for the first time, to see if I like it enough to help Kickstarter the movie. So far, it's good stuff. Every few episodes, I will probably write a random essay tackling the show from one direction or another. Here's the first few I've done.

    Introductory post about the pilot:
    Veronica Mars! It's a show I've had on my list practically forever, but other current and classic shows intervened. Now I'm watching it to see if I might want to contribute to the Kickstarter for the movie.

    I had always assumed (or hoped, rather) that I would like it, as it pushes a lot of my buttons (teens, noir, teens doing noir) and I tend to like cult shows (Firefly, Arrested Development, Better Off Ted, etc). I was a little anxious that I wouldn't like it, actually. Thankfully that does not seem to be the case.

    In fact, the pilot reminded me a little of How I Met Your Dragon, in that a lot of the things it was doing were a little obvious or trite or not quite elegant but the central premise and emotional strengths of the story made it feel much better than the sum of those parts. Like the SoCal teenagers the show follows, the pilot episode is a bit awkward, prone to posturing and drama, but capable at times of great imagination, strong emotions, and brave intentions.

    The "story" in the episode is minimal, barely a frame to set up the seasonal arc and allow for massive backstory infodumps (delivered in Veronica's sometimes arch, sometimes sincerely noir running commentary, as if she's trying to prove to herself that she can play the part of a detective). This is actually pretty neat, because it gives the episode time to establish a mood and a style as well as characters. (Pilots sometimes differ considerably from subsequent episodes in terms of direction, though, so I'll be curious to see if the show remains like this.) There's an easy-going feel to the script, so that it feels more like a slice of life than the beginning of a mystery story. There are lots of warm, golden shots of the California locations that have an unforced attraction to them--in fact, "unforced" describes a lot of the episode, including the budding friendship between Veronica and a boy she decides to help and the narration of a particular event in her past. The same applies to the way Veronica works: first by observation and assessment, then by the careful, measured application of pressure on individuals and institutions.

    She's absolutely the best part of the show so far, immediately compelling. The show goes to great lengths to establish her position now (down and out) versus her position before (part of the in crowd), but the way her personality and disposition have changed in the transition are elegantly reflected in the costuming (and performance) changes between the past and present. She was the wide-eyed, happy girl in dresses and long hair, conventionally sexy; now she's the buttoned-up detective with short hair and tomboyish clothes, who vacillates between pained silences and quips as defense mechanisms. For someone who ends the episode looking for answers, she seems like she already knows too much. Overall, she's an adorable little badass, and my heart goes out to her--no mean feat to pull off in these dense 40 minutes. Of the side characters, nobody makes much of an impression beyond her father, whose relationship with his daughter is warm, natural, and nuanced (particularly by his feelings about their financial troubles).

    There are other interesting things about the show--the notion of sunlit noir, the consistent (and fascinating) small town class warfare, the gender dynamics, the surprisingly frank sexual situations--but for now I'll just say that my fears that the show wouldn't be good enough are pretty much unfounded. Now to see if it becomes great.

    Veronica Mars, a throwback in terms of literary detectives:
    Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor. He talks as the man of his age talks, that is, with rude wit, a lively sense of the grotesque, a disgust for sham, and a contempt for pettiness.

    Chandler's notion of the private eye as a knight among scoundrels has largely fallen by the wayside, replaced by the grim protagonists (one can't really call them heroes) of modern neonoirs. When they don't fall into the Holmesian vein, brilliant but emotionally damaged, they're barely a half-step above their enemies in terms of morality, compromised by their past and defined by selfish obsession.

    Except for Veronica Mars. As befits a show intended for (but not talking down to) a teen audience, Mars is a fairly normal (if exceptional) kid. Far from the morally compromised (or socially maladjusted) modern detective figure, Veronica is scrupulously, almost naively moral. The innocence of youth has in some ways been stripped from her by past tragedy (for which she seeks rectification, not redemption), but in other ways that perspective is still very much with her. She sees a manipulative friend or a violent neighbor and becomes an observer, an outsider, disapproving. Veronica has her principles, unspoken but rock solid, and she's not afraid to act on them. She'd be right at home walking Chandler's mean streets.

    I'm excited to keep watching the show, it's really good so far. And I hope y'all enjoy these little bits of review/rumination. (But if anybody spoils anything in this thread, I will taser you with my taser.)

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Does this mean we'll finally see Veronica as an FBI agent? :mrgreen:
    The Kickstarter page says she "hasn't taken a case" since the end of the show, but I guess that doesn't rule out her being an agent(?)
    This was answered with respect to the Kickstarter; according to Rob Thomas, the FBI thing won't have happened.

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    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • scherbchenscherbchen Asgard (it is dead)Registered User regular
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    The Kickstarter has made me go back and rewatch the series.

    I keep forgetting how great Kristen Bell is since all she does these days is bad comedies and House of Lies which I don't care for.

    Early Season 1 (like, episode 5 or 6):
    Troy was written out way too early, it would have been better if there had been hints about how he had a drug dealing past and his relationship to Veronica had been established by more than a couple of episodes.

    And late (as in, very end of) Season 2 spoilers:
    In the purity test episode that introduces Mac (yay!) someone hacks Veronica's email and tells Duncan she has VD.

    Veronica denies it.

    Except she does have Chlamydia.

    Actually, Duncan had already skipped town by the time Veronica finds out. I hope she got him a message to get himself checked...

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Stop reminding me how dumb most of S2 was.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, the retcons of one of the show's best episode ("A Trip to the Dentist") drove me nuts. Also that trial gaaaaaaaaah

    Anyway, Rob Thomas has said Veronica didn't go to the FBI. This is at her 10 year reunion.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, the retcons of one of the show's best episode ("A Trip to the Dentist") drove me nuts. Also that trial gaaaaaaaaah

    Anyway, Rob Thomas has said Veronica didn't go to the FBI. This is at her 10 year reunion.

    It wasn't even just that. The whole mystery, unlike the first season's, is stupid and doesn't make much sense with that part of it. And it's so pointless. The whole molestation/bus crash thing worked really well. It was all the tangential shit to the season's mystery, all that stuff around it, that just failed miserably.

    And then, god, then there's the soap-opera-esque spinning-wheels bullshit plot stuff. Like Duncan's exit from the show. Just fucking awful.

    I will say though, I do love how the trial ends with the phone call to Duncan. That part was awesome.

    shryke on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Well, right (spoiling the season two villain for anyone that is still working their way through and wanders into the thread):
    I totally buy that Beaver is severely damaged. There were plenty of hints to that point, including everything with Mac, basically. And hooray motivation! That works. But the "MWAHAHAHAAH BEAVER IS EEEEEEEEEVIL" crap at the end? From basically the time Veronica is diagnosed til just before he jumps off the roof is totally awful. Especially the stupid cliche villain speech where they didn't quite have the mystery make sense like the first season where Veronica puts everything together and we get one of her vision flashbacks things. And especially especially the poorly designed fakeout with Keith. That was really dumb. Though not as dumb as Keith at the end of the episode/in the S3 premiere.

    I don't particularly mind Duncan's exit, because Duncan is not an interesting character except sort of when dealing with Lilly related guilt. Veronica being exceedingly clever is always fun, too.

    The biggest issues with season two is Veronica are:

    1) Totally self obsessed
    2) Kind of an awful person
    3) Fails to really investigate the bus crash until like 2/3 of the way through. The pacing was bad, where in season one, she's got a case of the week, but there's something that leads to solving one of the major mysteries presented in the pilot in every episode.

    It's still a good show, but it has serious flaws. In its defense though, "Ain't No Magic Mountain High Enough" is part of that season, and that's one of my three or so favorite episodes ("Trip to the Dentist" and "An Echolls Family Christmas" being the other obvious ones).

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I wouldn't have minded Veronica getting more ambivalent as a character if the series hadn't failed to deal with this adequately. She's always had a judgmental, self-righteous streak, and she becomes quite the bitch at times in season 3, yet the people who could do so very rarely call her out for it.

    Still, I enjoyed the series throughout for the relationships, especially Veronica and her dad. Even in weaker episodes, there wasstill more than enough to enjoy.

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    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    7 episodes left in Season One. The show has gotten a lot better (especially once it started calling Veronica out on her shit--the way she uses people, the way she enjoys revenge a little too much, the way she trusts people she shouldn't, and the way she tends to truthbomb people who don't deserve it, just to name a few of her flaws). Logan has stepped up to become, if not a second or third lead (after the Mars family), certainly the most important and interesting supporting character at this point. The show has done a great job of fleshing him and his family out (I love who they cast as his sister; California small town genre teen shows colliding!), and I like that the show has broadened its focus beyond class struggles at Neptune High. (One great way they've done that is by showing the ways in which people communicate and connect over the social walls between them, from movie star Echols turning to Keith for help to Logan playing cards with Weevil or bonding with Veronica.) They're slowly building a great ensemble of characters, writing more tightly structured episodes (the last two have had something like 5 plots rapidly intercut, which feels great), and gathering momentum towards the close of the season's overall plot.

    The show is also developing some interesting themes, particularly by contrasting high and low social strata at school, and examining what makes a family tick... or explode. In particular I found Mac's episode this season to be really well-done; it spoke to a lot the show is about--fate, accidents of birth, nature versus nurture, desires frustrated by social structures and barriers... Spoilers for Mac's episode as well as Once Upon a Time in America:
    Wow, person who has seen both of those things: you have eclectic tastes.

    Anyway, Mac's episode, in which she finds out that she was switched at birth with rich girl Madison, reminded me of one of my favorite scenes from Once Upon a Time in America (which in a very different context shares a lot of the same themes with VM, particularly those about class barriers and whether it's possible to transcend them). That would be the scene in which the gangsters break into a hospital and, as a prank, switch around all the babies in the natal ward. Rich sons going home to poor families, and vice versa.

    Patsy: You know what? You know, I wish I was switched when I was a kid.
    Noodles: What makes you think you weren't?

    There's still a ceiling here that the show isn't quite breaking through; partly it's that the direction is generally pretty pedestrian, which keeps a lot of the emotional beats from hitting as strongly as they should, and partly it's the annoying habit the show has picked up of offering very obvious 180 degree twists. (Veronica thinks someone is innocent, so they must be guilty! Veronica hates someone, so they must secretly be a victim! and so on.) The cases of the week have, unfortunately, gotten very predictable in general. (Which is probably why it feels better now they're throwing a lot of them into the mix each episode.)

    That said, it's still an extremely fun show, I'm just holding it to a very high standard. (Okay, so it's not The Wire; can't it at least be Terriers?) And I am certainly burning through them pretty rapidly. I expect I'll be done with season one this weekend. Perhaps it will continue to improve!

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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    A few years back I caught a bunch of this during days off; I'd wake up around 1pm and bam, there's Veronica Mars on E4. I think I saw the majority of the bus crash arc, and then a bunch about a rapist in a frat house who'd shave his victims heads? Once I got into Uni I sorta forgot about it. Now there's a movie on the way, time to finish the series off I guess! ;D

    Oh brilliant
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    The main strengths of the show is the big mystery for Season 1 and the relationship between Veronica and Keith. The Cases of the Week are hit and miss, the S2 mystery went on for way too long (S2 would have been better served with the '3 8-episode mysteries' plan that was adopted for S3) and the utterly stupid way a main character departs. By S3 the show had just lost it's footing.

    The entire series stays entertaining, and given that it was originally conceived as a book it is not that surprising. Since Moore has had a lot of time to think about it, I expect good things for the movie.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Astaereth wrote: »
    There's still a ceiling here that the show isn't quite breaking through; partly it's that the direction is generally pretty pedestrian, which keeps a lot of the emotional beats from hitting as strongly as they should...
    The directing, but also the editing, I think. There are so many edits (probably usually before a commercial break) that are clumsy, holding on a reaction shot just a bit too long, making the actors look like they're waiting for the cut. It's something that annoys me especially when I'm rewatching the series - how it would've benefited from putting as much care into how the episodes are made as into the acting and the character writing. (The plotting is hit and miss IMO.)

    Thirith on
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    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I watched S1 and S2 for the first time over the last couple weeks -- totally blew my mind halfway through the scene where Kendall and Trina are arguing with each other (I think it was in S2E9) when I realized what the showrunners just did. :)

    Dehumanized on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    7 episodes left in Season One.

    You are roughly where I figured out who killed Lilly, by the way. Which is another strength of the first season.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    7 episodes left in Season One.

    You are roughly where I figured out who killed Lilly, by the way. Which is another strength of the first season.

    I really like the way they handle the 1st season mystery because it never leaves you thinking "These characters are stupid, can't they see the obvious" but once they give you that last little piece of information, it all makes perfect sense. It never feels like they are cheating you.

    It's still a good show, but it has serious flaws. In its defense though, "Ain't No Magic Mountain High Enough" is part of that season, and that's one of my three or so favorite episodes ("Trip to the Dentist" and "An Echolls Family Christmas" being the other obvious ones).

    I love The Wrath of Con, mostly for the B plot because it's so great and just so ballsey to basically hammer apart all the preconceptions the show has built for you within not that long of when it starts. And it does it all with this really deft touch.

    I don't particularly mind Duncan's exit, because Duncan is not an interesting character except sort of when dealing with Lilly related guilt. Veronica being exceedingly clever is always fun, too.
    Yeah, he is kinda boring and it's obvious why they dumped him, but it still just feels really really stupid. They just needed to find something interesting for him to do.

    Maybe they should have left him with Meg or something and then when the bus crashes, he's got alot more connection to the whole thing then Veronica does and the two of them could try to solve it together and just have the two bounce off each other.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Response to Duncan stuff:
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, he is kinda boring and it's obvious why they dumped him, but it still just feels really really stupid. They just needed to find something interesting for him to do.

    Maybe they should have left him with Meg or something and then when the bus crashes, he's got alot more connection to the whole thing then Veronica does and the two of them could try to solve it together and just have the two bounce off each other.
    I missed Meg. Poor Meg.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    I just rewatched the first two seasons and S2 definitely has some issues. The investigation of the S2 mystery moves way too slowly except for every once in a while when they drop a clue into an episode, but even then they don't really do anything with them until the last 4/5 episodes.
    I also think Veronica jumps the gun on Cassidy being evil. She makes the assumption too fast even if she is right.

    Also earlier in the season when she finds out Richard Casablancas is scamming people the way she treats Mr. Pope is pretty harsh.

    Also I hate Jackie.

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Astaereth wrote: »
    7 episodes left in Season One.

    You are roughly where I figured out who killed Lilly, by the way. Which is another strength of the first season.

    To my mind, there have always been three strong possibilities:

    (spoilers up to and including Season 1, episode 16)
    1. Jake Kane (the Dad). The show establishes early on that he doesn't have an alibi, plus Keith believes it's him. Add to this how creepy it would be to go back and watch the episode where he cries over Lily's memorial video. He's the main suspect, but according to Veronica Mars rules, that means he's the one person we know didn't do it. (I'd sooner believe Veronica did it.)

    2. Duncan Kane (the Brother). The show establishes early on that he doesn't have an alibi, plus it would be pretty surprising. The episode that goes over his medical history shows that he's taking medicine either to deal with something that causes violence/hallucination or that has side-effects as such (I forget which, not that it matters all that much), as well as that he can't remember the night of the murder. Add to this how creepy his near-catatonia is when Veronica finds him just after the body is found. He's a decent suspect and I'd be behind it, if only there weren't a better one...

    3. Celeste Kane (the Mother). The show establishes early on that she doesn't have an alibi, plus it would "surprising" in the way that these mysteries usually are. For one thing, of the family she's gotten the least screen time and characterization; for another, her guilt would fit the show pretty well thematically, particularly if she killed Lily to protect her social status after Lily discovered that Jake may have fathered an illegitimate child and, presumably, threatened to reveal that fact to the world (or Veronica, which would be a neat little twist of narrative). Also, having the matriarch do the deed is something shows like this tend to do.

    I've pretty much always had Celeste as the top suspect, after the first couple of episodes; she has a fair amount of negative characterization (understandably hates Veronica, is an uptight bitch in general, etc) without basically no positive characterization, which combined with low screen-time suggests the show trying to hide a villain in plain sight.

    Most importantly, and probably what you were referring to, Bum, is that an episode or two ago, Veronica's mother solidly alibis Jake Kane while destroying Celeste's alibi. (At least I think--it's actually a big problem that the show is unclear as to whether the hotel room shenanigans were happening while Lily was murdered or earlier, when the coroner says she was murdered. It seems clearly intended to be A CLUE but they don't actually state which it is, so either Keith back then was trying to nail down Jake's whereabouts (possibly in relation to Keith's wife) after the coroner's time of death, or all that we learned was about adultery and nobody has an alibi so far.

    This is all recorded for posterity so that I can feel silly when it turns out to have been Mac the whole time.

    Astaereth on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    7 episodes left in Season One.

    You are roughly where I figured out who killed Lilly, by the way. Which is another strength of the first season.

    To my mind, there have always been three strong possibilities:

    (spoilers up to and including Season 1, episode 16)
    1. Jake Kane (the Dad). The show establishes early on that he doesn't have an alibi, plus Keith believes it's him. Add to this how creepy it would be to go back and watch the episode where he cries over Lily's memorial video. He's the main suspect, but according to Veronica Mars rules, that means he's the one person we know didn't do it. (I'd sooner believe Veronica did it.)

    2. Duncan Kane (the Brother). The show establishes early on that he doesn't have an alibi, plus it would be pretty surprising. The episode that goes over his medical history shows that he's taking medicine either to deal with something that causes violence/hallucination or that has side-effects as such (I forget which, not that it matters all that much), as well as that he can't remember the night of the murder. Add to this how creepy his near-catatonia is when Veronica finds him just after the body is found. He's a decent suspect and I'd be behind it, if only there weren't a better one...

    3. Celeste Kane (the Mother). The show establishes early on that she doesn't have an alibi, plus it would "surprising" in the way that these mysteries usually are. For one thing, of the family she's gotten the least screen time and characterization; for another, her guilt would fit the show pretty well thematically, particularly if she killed Lily to protect her social status after Lily discovered that Jake may have fathered an illegitimate child and, presumably, threatened to reveal that fact to the world (or Veronica, which would be a neat little twist of narrative). Also, having the matriarch do the deed is something shows like this tend to do.

    I've pretty much always had Celeste as the top suspect, after the first couple of episodes; she has a fair amount of negative characterization (understandably hates Veronica, is an uptight bitch in general, etc) without basically no positive characterization, which combined with low screen-time suggests the show trying to hide a villain in plain sight.

    Most importantly, and probably what you were referring to, Bum, is that an episode or two ago, Veronica's mother solidly alibis Jake Kane while destroying Celeste's alibi. (At least I think--it's actually a big problem that the show is unclear as to whether the hotel room shenanigans were happening while Lily was murdered or earlier, when the coroner says she was murdered. It seems clearly intended to be A CLUE but they don't actually state which it is, so either Keith back then was trying to nail down Jake's whereabouts (possibly in relation to Keith's wife) after the coroner's time of death, or all that we learned was about adultery and nobody has an alibi so far.

    This is all recorded for posterity so that I can feel silly when it turns out to have been Mac the whole time.

    For posterity (DO NOT CLICK, until you're done):
    This speculation is highly amusing, considering the next episode. I was suspicious of the right person around now, was 90% sure after

    (No, seriously, this pretty much gives it away if you click again.)
    1-19.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    Season One of this show was a perfect storm. It isn't surprising that the show failed to live up to it in further seasons. I really want to watch it again but I lost my box set and I can't rationalize paying a pretty dear price to get it on Amazon download.

    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

    Path of Exile: themightypuck
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Three episodes away from the end: some penultimate thoughts.
    -I definitely approve of Logan/Veronica, even though he's a bit too much of a dick for that relationship to actually work. But they're fun together, and actually a better match than anybody she's dated so far (or Duncan, for that matter). In my fanfiction, he's the Robin to her Batman and they go on Adventures.

    -Also something I like (also it hurts!) is the continuing deterioration of Wallace and Veronica's friendship.

    -I feel like the direction and editing has been a little better, and the cases a little less predictable. Overall, though, I think the show needs to focus less on the twists and turns of the mystery plots and more on the emotional ramifications of those mystery plots (and of the hijinks necessary to solve them).

    Mystery update:

    The show made it more clear that the hotel shenanigans happened after the coroner time of death, because Keith was suspicious of that in the first place. (One of the avenues the show for whatever reason has never gone down--did the coroner just fuck up, or what? I guess if he'd been bribed or leaned on, he'd know way too much. Oh well.) But then Veronica is convinced that nobody has alibis (except for Logan, who was provably out of the country.)

    More importantly, the show has managed to put another round of "Izzit you?" into play for every major suspect, imagining Duncan killing Lily in a fit of rage, Dad killing Lily over her relationship with Weevil (the least likely scenario, in my opinion), and Celeste killing Lily over Veronica and the infidelity (still my pick, but was Celeste's version first in the imagined scenarios as a clever bit of misdirection or because she's really not the killer?). They even threw some red herring at Weevil, whose relationship with Lily is still somewhat unclear, particularly on her end. He definitely didn't do it though.

    Overall it could still be any of the Kanes, which is a nice feeling. Everybody's had one reason or another NOT to be the killer, too--Duncan taking a powder puts a lot of suspicion his way, which in turn is the show's typical fake-out; Celeste half-apologizing to Veronica humanized her, at least a little bit; and Weevil, of course, is too much of a softy to have really killed anyone. I admit that leaves out Jake, who hasn't been around much; but since his security guy is acting on his behalf, I suspect he's protecting somebody (although he may not know who).

    The other major clue, Keith's thing about the laundry, isn't as damning as it sounds; one or the other Kane parent might have found Duncan bloody and standing over his sister's body, temporarily deranged, and assumed it was him, when it fact it was the other parent. Protecting Duncan would be consistent with all of their actions so far, including buying him a patsy, something I'm not sure they would have done for themselves (they seem more like the type to say fuck it and hire a bunch of lawyers--but if it meant Duncan being put in an institution if his secret even came out, that might warrant a higher measure of protection, ie., Koontz.)

    Anyway, so while I have a horse in the race, it's really anybody's game and I would be convinced by any particular solution at this point. Time will tell!

    ACsTqqK.jpg
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Three episodes away from the end: some penultimate thoughts.
    -I definitely approve of Logan/Veronica, even though he's a bit too much of a dick for that relationship to actually work. But they're fun together, and actually a better match than anybody she's dated so far (or Duncan, for that matter). In my fanfiction, he's the Robin to her Batman and they go on Adventures.

    -Also something I like (also it hurts!) is the continuing deterioration of Wallace and Veronica's friendship.

    -I feel like the direction and editing has been a little better, and the cases a little less predictable. Overall, though, I think the show needs to focus less on the twists and turns of the mystery plots and more on the emotional ramifications of those mystery plots (and of the hijinks necessary to solve them).

    Mystery update:

    The show made it more clear that the hotel shenanigans happened after the coroner time of death, because Keith was suspicious of that in the first place. (One of the avenues the show for whatever reason has never gone down--did the coroner just fuck up, or what? I guess if he'd been bribed or leaned on, he'd know way too much. Oh well.) But then Veronica is convinced that nobody has alibis (except for Logan, who was provably out of the country.)

    More importantly, the show has managed to put another round of "Izzit you?" into play for every major suspect, imagining Duncan killing Lily in a fit of rage, Dad killing Lily over her relationship with Weevil (the least likely scenario, in my opinion), and Celeste killing Lily over Veronica and the infidelity (still my pick, but was Celeste's version first in the imagined scenarios as a clever bit of misdirection or because she's really not the killer?). They even threw some red herring at Weevil, whose relationship with Lily is still somewhat unclear, particularly on her end. He definitely didn't do it though.

    Overall it could still be any of the Kanes, which is a nice feeling. Everybody's had one reason or another NOT to be the killer, too--Duncan taking a powder puts a lot of suspicion his way, which in turn is the show's typical fake-out; Celeste half-apologizing to Veronica humanized her, at least a little bit; and Weevil, of course, is too much of a softy to have really killed anyone. I admit that leaves out Jake, who hasn't been around much; but since his security guy is acting on his behalf, I suspect he's protecting somebody (although he may not know who).

    The other major clue, Keith's thing about the laundry, isn't as damning as it sounds; one or the other Kane parent might have found Duncan bloody and standing over his sister's body, temporarily deranged, and assumed it was him, when it fact it was the other parent. Protecting Duncan would be consistent with all of their actions so far, including buying him a patsy, something I'm not sure they would have done for themselves (they seem more like the type to say fuck it and hire a bunch of lawyers--but if it meant Duncan being put in an institution if his secret even came out, that might warrant a higher measure of protection, ie., Koontz.)

    Anyway, so while I have a horse in the race, it's really anybody's game and I would be convinced by any particular solution at this point. Time will tell!

    I am eagerly awaiting you finishing the season. I've never seen someone comment / speculate as they work their way through it before.

    And I guess that is all that is safe for me to say :).

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Tomanta wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Three episodes away from the end: some penultimate thoughts.
    -I definitely approve of Logan/Veronica, even though he's a bit too much of a dick for that relationship to actually work. But they're fun together, and actually a better match than anybody she's dated so far (or Duncan, for that matter). In my fanfiction, he's the Robin to her Batman and they go on Adventures.

    -Also something I like (also it hurts!) is the continuing deterioration of Wallace and Veronica's friendship.

    -I feel like the direction and editing has been a little better, and the cases a little less predictable. Overall, though, I think the show needs to focus less on the twists and turns of the mystery plots and more on the emotional ramifications of those mystery plots (and of the hijinks necessary to solve them).

    Mystery update:

    The show made it more clear that the hotel shenanigans happened after the coroner time of death, because Keith was suspicious of that in the first place. (One of the avenues the show for whatever reason has never gone down--did the coroner just fuck up, or what? I guess if he'd been bribed or leaned on, he'd know way too much. Oh well.) But then Veronica is convinced that nobody has alibis (except for Logan, who was provably out of the country.)

    More importantly, the show has managed to put another round of "Izzit you?" into play for every major suspect, imagining Duncan killing Lily in a fit of rage, Dad killing Lily over her relationship with Weevil (the least likely scenario, in my opinion), and Celeste killing Lily over Veronica and the infidelity (still my pick, but was Celeste's version first in the imagined scenarios as a clever bit of misdirection or because she's really not the killer?). They even threw some red herring at Weevil, whose relationship with Lily is still somewhat unclear, particularly on her end. He definitely didn't do it though.

    Overall it could still be any of the Kanes, which is a nice feeling. Everybody's had one reason or another NOT to be the killer, too--Duncan taking a powder puts a lot of suspicion his way, which in turn is the show's typical fake-out; Celeste half-apologizing to Veronica humanized her, at least a little bit; and Weevil, of course, is too much of a softy to have really killed anyone. I admit that leaves out Jake, who hasn't been around much; but since his security guy is acting on his behalf, I suspect he's protecting somebody (although he may not know who).

    The other major clue, Keith's thing about the laundry, isn't as damning as it sounds; one or the other Kane parent might have found Duncan bloody and standing over his sister's body, temporarily deranged, and assumed it was him, when it fact it was the other parent. Protecting Duncan would be consistent with all of their actions so far, including buying him a patsy, something I'm not sure they would have done for themselves (they seem more like the type to say fuck it and hire a bunch of lawyers--but if it meant Duncan being put in an institution if his secret even came out, that might warrant a higher measure of protection, ie., Koontz.)

    Anyway, so while I have a horse in the race, it's really anybody's game and I would be convinced by any particular solution at this point. Time will tell!

    I am eagerly awaiting you finishing the season. I've never seen someone comment / speculate as they work their way through it before.

    And I guess that is all that is safe for me to say :).

    Thanks! You won't have long to wait. Man, I was gonna take a break, get some work done. But then I just couldn't resist...

    Actually, I was going to watch the last three and then comment on the season in general, but the finale will have to wait, because the penultimate episode was SO GOOD, you guys.
    To the show's infinite credit, I had actually forgotten about Veronica's rape, described to us in the pilot and then mostly dropped since then. Turns out they were saving up that investigation for now, so they could bring in side characters from some of the cases of the week, tie it into Veronica's relationship with is-he-redeemed-or-not-Logan, and in general have a nice, tangled web of emotions from everybody involved.

    The result is the best episode of the season, hands down. It's a fast-paced, propulsive mystery story that we care about far more than usual, of course, because Veronica's investigating her own past. It also has the best use of flashbacks to date--instead of just weirdly shot infodumps, they're Rashomon-style subjective stories about that night, each one giving us and Veronica dubious facts that have to be interpreted in light of who the speaker is and what they want to be true. (My favorite being the uncommented-on discrepancy between Shaun's tale, in which Dick is the only one pushing Beaver to rape Veronica, and Beaver's tale, in which Shaun is the one throwing him condoms.)

    More than just giving you another layer to think through (something the show could definitely stand to have more of), the flashbacks speak to broader themes about subjectivity. Everybody has their own warped version of events in their lives; the one they tell other people, and sometimes the one they tell themselves, too. Duncan tries to forget that he's in love with Veronica, and then, drugged, forgets he's supposed to forget that. Logan's movie star father acts the good Dad, but he doesn't even know Logan's birthday, and even worse, the violence (which he learned in turn from his own father, and which is perhaps the only real way he knows how to parent) is still there, under the surface. And Veronica barely gives a thought to how much she uses others for her own ends, until she gets an object lesson (and a talking to) from Wallace.

    Most of all, though, the episode is simply the most emotionally affecting one to date. I was totally with Veronica on her roller coaster, through every twist and turn, her anger for once 100% righteous, her pain and vulnerability so clear. There's a part of her that's newly shocked every time the 09-ers fuck her over again... and of course, the cruelest moment of all was realizing that some of them were truly so shallow that dating Logan puts her back in the in-crowd, a place she can't help but want to be, at least partially. That awful, mindless classicism collides with the Rashomon at the end, when Veronica realizes Madison accidentally gave her the GHB as part of a gesture only supposed to be mundanely cruel. In Veronica's version of reality for the past year, she was drugged and raped on purpose; in Madison's version of reality, all she did was give somebody a trip to the dentist. As Veronica herself said once, life isn't fair. And sometimes we don't even know.

    Going into the last episode, I'm very curious to get the answers to my questions, and to see who or what is going to explode when those answers get out. But I also want to see somebody, anybody, give Veronica a hug. I think she needs it. Come on, Wallace.

    Astaereth on
    ACsTqqK.jpg
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Wallace gave her a hug, either metaphorically or literally off screen.

    Worth noting though (concerning the biggest mystery):
    You ignored a pretty big clue!

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I'm up to episode 5. The only clue I've picked up on is
    Weevil was at Lilly's memorial unveiling, and was crying.

    ...I don't know what it means.

    Ed; oh shit, this ep was crazy!

    Was it a midseason finale or something?

    Dark Raven X on
    Oh brilliant
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I'm up to episode 5. The only clue I've picked up on is
    Weevil was at Lilly's memorial unveiling, and was crying.

    ...I don't know what it means.

    The big one, in the early episodes:
    Lilly got a ticket after her supposed time of death.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Season finale review:
    Wow.

    ACsTqqK.jpg
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Season finale review:
    Wow.

    Hee.
    So, as I said, I was suspicious of Aaron from pretty near the beginning. Child abusers rarely fare well in popular entertainment. When he has his ragegasm at Trina's boyfriend I was pretty sure. Bonus evidence was his total dickishness to his kid, so fucking his girlfriend and then killing her was not out of bounds. And Lilly needed to have a major secret that was the motive, so that all worked out, and didn't make as much sense for the Kanes (unless she saw Jake and Lianne, but like you I thought Jake was the least likely of the Kanes).

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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