Even as somebody who has taken great advantage of crazy health pot starts, I understand them wanting to make them unique(5). All I have to do is play Zed, Kat, or anybody else with no mana and I can just use abilities to farm/harass and unless the enemy champ can actually force engages on me constantly(pretty hard to do against these 2 champs) then I'm guaranteed to not get forced back until I'm ready to go back. If your opponent uses mana, a 9 pot start means unless their jungler ganks you, their harass is meaningless. It basically takes small trades off the table and makes all ins the only way to play.
The start is what caused top laners to start going red pot/health pots, because at least then you could just force an all in and pop the red pot and kill the other guy, which of course just led to both people starting red pot, which lead to them now increasing the cost of that.
More options for starts is good, but they have to constantly balance to make sure early laning phase is still fun. I think they're doing a pretty good job honestly. Doran's starts, longsword/2, red pot/pots, ward/pots, armor/5, rejuv bead, faerie charm, etc. These are all items you see regularly.
Besides, if you really want a mad health sustain start, you should just go double rejuv bead/3 health pots and run hp/5 quints. This is what I do on Shen top, and it works very very well. You're basically just having to actually invest in the rejuv beads as opposed to just buying 10 hp pots at the beginning of the game which are never wasted since you'd be buying more on each back anyway.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
Hey, maybe I can play kass mid again now that my opponent won't be able to mindlessly spam pots and never give a fuck about anything I do until pots become useless.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
Problem with that is the opponent is not behind. S(he) was going to buy those pots and wards throughout the laning phase anyway. The difference is since you only started with 2 pots and he with 9, assuming you're equal skill and you're not a champ that can bully his, then you both burn 2 health pots and then trade a bit more. Now you must go back and he has 7 pots left. When you back he shoves the lane to your tower so you lose some CS. He backs, buys whatever item, comes back with the same 7 pots still. You come back with 3 more pots/ward whatever, but down on CS. It's even worse if he just stays in lane until you come back again, because now you're down 1 or possibly 2 levels depending on when you backed, and now you get zoned off CS and he builds an even bigger lead.
That's the problem. He didn't waste any money because he just bought items at the beginning of the game that you'd buy anyway. The difference is he bought so many pots that even though you started with a superior item start in terms of stats, the sheer sustain he started with means that unless you can all in and get a kill, you're 100% guaranteed to be sent back before he is.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
300 / 400 gold + ~ 2 creep waves leaves you up on gold?
In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
300 / 400 gold + ~ 2 creep waves leaves you up on gold?
Yep happened last night vs. Garen (as Tryndamere). Trynd has natural sustain with Q and I run 6% lifesteal runes. I start longsword and two potions. If Garen tries to engage me I attack, spin, attack with ignite tossed on top and now he's got to play passive.
I also gain 5 AP 5 AD while ignite is on cooldown, making my harass stronger and my heals better.
I ended up being about 10 CS up when their jungler finally game and squeaked a kill on me by both the jungle and garen using all their summoners on me. I came back to lane still ahead on CS slightly, with my gold spent on permanent items (I think I got a bilgewater cutlass and boots straight up).
Then I simply ran him down with my ghost/ignite and the cutlass. Kills now even and he spent 600 gold on wards/pots while I spent 70 gold on pots.
Trundle, why have I not been playing Trundle as a jungle main?! Few games with him so far, and holy wow. He really shines on an AoE team when you want to be fighting in narrow chokes so he can pillar to split the other team up. Feels like pillar is so powerful, it should have a much longer cooldown, but you can usually get 2 off in a teamfight, and a third to pick off running stragglers. And his ult is maybe the best anti-tank tool in the game next to BoRK. He's not a carry jungler, but if you have the DPS already, which most teams do, he's stupid fun.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
300 / 400 gold + ~ 2 creep waves leaves you up on gold?
Yep happened last night vs. Garen (as Tryndamere). Trynd has natural sustain with Q and I run 6% lifesteal runes. I start longsword and two potions. If Garen tries to engage me I attack, spin, attack with ignite tossed on top and now he's got to play passive.
I also gain 5 AP 5 AD while ignite is on cooldown, making my harass stronger and my heals better.
I ended up being about 10 CS up when their jungler finally game and squeaked a kill on me by both the jungle and garen using all their summoners on me. I came back to lane still ahead on CS slightly, with my gold spent on permanent items (I think I got a bilgewater cutlass and boots straight up).
Then I simply ran him down with my ghost/ignite and the cutlass. Kills now even and he spent 600 gold on wards/pots while I spent 70 gold on pots.
Win-win.
I'm not good enough to exactly articulate what "should" have happened there. But something along the lines of- when the Garen killed you he should have pushed the lane to tower with spin (very quick) recovered that 10 cs difference and gone b. Then bought chainmail or something. Making it much harder to kill him when you both return.
In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
Well yeah, with his new ult I can see how he'd be able to do that, but I'm talking current Trundle. Good to see my theory crafting isn't too far off.
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DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
Trundle works well right now because of how team comps have evolved. Nowadays there's usually one big bulky dude on the enemy team (ex. Jarvan, Shen, Nasus) who's a perfect target for his ulti, and with Zed and Kha'zix being popular picks, as well as there always being an ADC, teamfights are generally favourable for Trundle from a strictly mechanics pespective - he can bite someone to hurt their damage ouput, ulti a tank to cripple them, and let his team go to town/block escapes with pillar.
Do we have any statistics on the slow provided by reworked Trundler's Q? League wiki gives no mention of the slow %, only that there is a slow.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
300 / 400 gold + ~ 2 creep waves leaves you up on gold?
Yep happened last night vs. Garen (as Tryndamere). Trynd has natural sustain with Q and I run 6% lifesteal runes. I start longsword and two potions. If Garen tries to engage me I attack, spin, attack with ignite tossed on top and now he's got to play passive.
I also gain 5 AP 5 AD while ignite is on cooldown, making my harass stronger and my heals better.
I ended up being about 10 CS up when their jungler finally game and squeaked a kill on me by both the jungle and garen using all their summoners on me. I came back to lane still ahead on CS slightly, with my gold spent on permanent items (I think I got a bilgewater cutlass and boots straight up).
Then I simply ran him down with my ghost/ignite and the cutlass. Kills now even and he spent 600 gold on wards/pots while I spent 70 gold on pots.
Win-win.
What you just said was "I played against someone who didn't play his lane very well," but extrapolated it to mean that his item start was the problem. Also, a Garen using Q and E with W up for 2 seconds out trades an AD Tryndamere auto attacking and getting one weak spin off 100% of the time.
Like, all that Garen had to do was all in you at level 3 and you'd have to burn both the pots, he'd burn a couple pots, but then he should've just zoned you off creeps because you shouldn't have been able to AA creeps to even get fury for a decent heal. Then you'd have had to back and he'd have been up on CS. You just played against an opponent who you were better than.
Nerfing 2 wards 9 pots AND elixir start in the same schtick?
Well top lane sure is going to be fun now (not)
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
300 / 400 gold + ~ 2 creep waves leaves you up on gold?
Yep happened last night vs. Garen (as Tryndamere). Trynd has natural sustain with Q and I run 6% lifesteal runes. I start longsword and two potions. If Garen tries to engage me I attack, spin, attack with ignite tossed on top and now he's got to play passive.
I also gain 5 AP 5 AD while ignite is on cooldown, making my harass stronger and my heals better.
I ended up being about 10 CS up when their jungler finally game and squeaked a kill on me by both the jungle and garen using all their summoners on me. I came back to lane still ahead on CS slightly, with my gold spent on permanent items (I think I got a bilgewater cutlass and boots straight up).
Then I simply ran him down with my ghost/ignite and the cutlass. Kills now even and he spent 600 gold on wards/pots while I spent 70 gold on pots.
Win-win.
What you just said was "I played against someone who didn't play his lane very well," but extrapolated it to mean that his item start was the problem. Also, a Garen using Q and E with W up for 2 seconds out trades an AD Tryndamere auto attacking and getting one weak spin off 100% of the time.
Like, all that Garen had to do was all in you at level 3 and you'd have to burn both the pots, he'd burn a couple pots, but then he should've just zoned you off creeps because you shouldn't have been able to AA creeps to even get fury for a decent heal. Then you'd have had to back and he'd have been up on CS. You just played against an opponent who you were better than.
I was talking about the level 1 engage when I said attack spin attack. It sets the pace. He has to back off and heal for a while and once he hits level 3, I simply mocking shout if we're going to trade, not for the slow, but for the reduced AD.
If he wants to trade, he has to follow me into my minion wave and push the lane towards my tower. The same sort of tactics work vs most top laners that start with defensive consumables (even red pot/pots/ward). They may force a retreat by red elixiring, but after it wears off I've still got my permanent items while they are starting from a disadvantaged position financially.
A decent player isn't going to walk into your minions and just eat that. He'd be going for a melee creep at level 1, so if you attack, spin into his creeps, and attack again, he's going to hit you with auto+Q, and then you'll take so much creep damage he can probably ignite you for first blood. In your example anyway, he'd have to back off for like 20 seconds at the most, because you say he started with 9 health pots. Plus, your ignite would be down and his wouldn't if he didn't also all in you, which gives him an even bigger lane advantage.
And once again, starting wards/pots does not put anybody behind on items. If he started armor/5 then backed and came back to lane with a ward and 2 more pots, then his next back he bought X item plus a ward and 2 pots, that is the same gold spent on wards/pots as if he started 2 wards/9 pots. It's only wasted if you weren't already planning on buying at least 2 wards and at least 9 health pots during laning phase, which is either stupid in the case of the wards, and highly unlikely in the case of pots. You have to be against a pretty bad opponent if you don't even need to buy health pots when you back.
As for red pot start, you either start with it to get a kill, or to counteract your opponent's red pot to survive an all in. Anybody who starts red pot against somebody who doesn't have one and doesn't get a kill with the red pot is definitely at a disadvantage, because they were outplayed and wasted the gold on the red pot. That's not the same as buying pots/wards, which you would already be buying every game.
Dat Zed. I had a game last night where I went mid with Diana and was facing a Zed who got to lane late still level 1 with %50 health. I was level level 2 full health and 3 pots still so I was like fuck it, ALL IN. Zed gets first blood. Dumb. Fuck ZED.
Dat Zed. I had a game last night where I went mid with Diana and was facing a Zed who got to lane late still level 1 with %50 health. I was level level 2 full health and 3 pots still so I was like fuck it, ALL IN. Zed gets first blood. Dumb. Fuck ZED.
The other day I played against a Zed top as manatank Kha. Rushed Frozen Heart after my tear, bought Ninja Tabi, Grabbed another Glacial Shroud for Iceborne. Also had a Aegis on our team.
He still absolutely shredded me in every engage. With no armor pen; save for his runes and a pretty late BC.
Posts
Angry Tourist Renekton needs to be made into a real skin. Riot plz.
The start is what caused top laners to start going red pot/health pots, because at least then you could just force an all in and pop the red pot and kill the other guy, which of course just led to both people starting red pot, which lead to them now increasing the cost of that.
More options for starts is good, but they have to constantly balance to make sure early laning phase is still fun. I think they're doing a pretty good job honestly. Doran's starts, longsword/2, red pot/pots, ward/pots, armor/5, rejuv bead, faerie charm, etc. These are all items you see regularly.
Besides, if you really want a mad health sustain start, you should just go double rejuv bead/3 health pots and run hp/5 quints. This is what I do on Shen top, and it works very very well. You're basically just having to actually invest in the rejuv beads as opposed to just buying 10 hp pots at the beginning of the game which are never wasted since you'd be buying more on each back anyway.
I love when my opponent top lane starts with 9 pots 2 wards. I know that even if he gets a kill on me I'm still up on gold. Usually start with only 2 pots, 5 in rare matchups.
Problem with that is the opponent is not behind. S(he) was going to buy those pots and wards throughout the laning phase anyway. The difference is since you only started with 2 pots and he with 9, assuming you're equal skill and you're not a champ that can bully his, then you both burn 2 health pots and then trade a bit more. Now you must go back and he has 7 pots left. When you back he shoves the lane to your tower so you lose some CS. He backs, buys whatever item, comes back with the same 7 pots still. You come back with 3 more pots/ward whatever, but down on CS. It's even worse if he just stays in lane until you come back again, because now you're down 1 or possibly 2 levels depending on when you backed, and now you get zoned off CS and he builds an even bigger lead.
That's the problem. He didn't waste any money because he just bought items at the beginning of the game that you'd buy anyway. The difference is he bought so many pots that even though you started with a superior item start in terms of stats, the sheer sustain he started with means that unless you can all in and get a kill, you're 100% guaranteed to be sent back before he is.
There needs to be one more item so you can get a DFG and then fire a hextech volley at people.
i bought a nashors instead of dfg because poverty then game ended sad time
Yep happened last night vs. Garen (as Tryndamere). Trynd has natural sustain with Q and I run 6% lifesteal runes. I start longsword and two potions. If Garen tries to engage me I attack, spin, attack with ignite tossed on top and now he's got to play passive.
I also gain 5 AP 5 AD while ignite is on cooldown, making my harass stronger and my heals better.
I ended up being about 10 CS up when their jungler finally game and squeaked a kill on me by both the jungle and garen using all their summoners on me. I came back to lane still ahead on CS slightly, with my gold spent on permanent items (I think I got a bilgewater cutlass and boots straight up).
Then I simply ran him down with my ghost/ignite and the cutlass. Kills now even and he spent 600 gold on wards/pots while I spent 70 gold on pots.
Win-win.
--> she gets most kills on her team gg
Do we have any statistics on the slow provided by reworked Trundler's Q? League wiki gives no mention of the slow %, only that there is a slow.
This is a high price tournament with the top two spots giving access to the EU LCS qualifiers for 2nd part of the season.
Stream Link: http://www.twitch.tv/eslbenelux/
Bracket Link: http://www.esl.eu/eu/lol/go4lol/go4lol_meets_lcs_spring2013/rankings/
Jesus people still using skype to cast tournaments. It is such a horrible program.
what i what
hilarious
insightful
tragic
what it, I dont, what
Yeah hey, it's totally cool that you just trashed this city and killed tens of thousands of people.
You let me dunk on you.
All good bro.
that album is missing the garen sunfire cape one
There you go.
What you just said was "I played against someone who didn't play his lane very well," but extrapolated it to mean that his item start was the problem. Also, a Garen using Q and E with W up for 2 seconds out trades an AD Tryndamere auto attacking and getting one weak spin off 100% of the time.
Like, all that Garen had to do was all in you at level 3 and you'd have to burn both the pots, he'd burn a couple pots, but then he should've just zoned you off creeps because you shouldn't have been able to AA creeps to even get fury for a decent heal. Then you'd have had to back and he'd have been up on CS. You just played against an opponent who you were better than.
I was talking about the level 1 engage when I said attack spin attack. It sets the pace. He has to back off and heal for a while and once he hits level 3, I simply mocking shout if we're going to trade, not for the slow, but for the reduced AD.
If he wants to trade, he has to follow me into my minion wave and push the lane towards my tower. The same sort of tactics work vs most top laners that start with defensive consumables (even red pot/pots/ward). They may force a retreat by red elixiring, but after it wears off I've still got my permanent items while they are starting from a disadvantaged position financially.
And once again, starting wards/pots does not put anybody behind on items. If he started armor/5 then backed and came back to lane with a ward and 2 more pots, then his next back he bought X item plus a ward and 2 pots, that is the same gold spent on wards/pots as if he started 2 wards/9 pots. It's only wasted if you weren't already planning on buying at least 2 wards and at least 9 health pots during laning phase, which is either stupid in the case of the wards, and highly unlikely in the case of pots. You have to be against a pretty bad opponent if you don't even need to buy health pots when you back.
As for red pot start, you either start with it to get a kill, or to counteract your opponent's red pot to survive an all in. Anybody who starts red pot against somebody who doesn't have one and doesn't get a kill with the red pot is definitely at a disadvantage, because they were outplayed and wasted the gold on the red pot. That's not the same as buying pots/wards, which you would already be buying every game.
The other day I played against a Zed top as manatank Kha. Rushed Frozen Heart after my tear, bought Ninja Tabi, Grabbed another Glacial Shroud for Iceborne. Also had a Aegis on our team.
He still absolutely shredded me in every engage. With no armor pen; save for his runes and a pretty late BC.
PSN: ChemENGR