Priest vs priest. He has... at least 7 Legendaries. How do I know? I Thoughtstole 3 of them, and he played 4 others... thanks, shadow word: death. I even had control of Illidan for one turn before he took it back... and then burned my soulpriest (that was keeping me from healing my Northshire Cleric, silly mistake) and the one Flame he spawned for me to kill it. So... wish I had recorded that game.
And Mind Games brought Prophet Velen out for me... ridiculous.
And man, pyroblast is the most amazing thing in Arena. You are basically playing to 11.
Had a massive drawn out game against a mage last night. Can't remember the exact details, but do you know where his pyroblast was? His very last card! It did win him the game though.
And man, pyroblast is the most amazing thing in Arena. You are basically playing to 11.
Had a massive drawn out game against a mage last night. Can't remember the exact details, but do you know where his pyroblast was? His very last card! It did win him the game though.
This just in, mages with Pyroblast and Fireball are bullshit in arena.
This also just in, Turn 1 Coin - Defias Ringleaders still wins games for Rogues.
Breaking news, Raging Worgen, Thrallmar Farseer and Blessing of Kings means you're dead by turn fucking 5.
Finally for tonight, fuck going 2-3 in arena.
+1
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
KasynI'm not saying I don't like our chances.She called me the master.Registered Userregular
I'm not sure I am allowed to have expensive cards in my decks. My Divine Shield Pally deck has ONE Stormwind Champion in it, and then nothing above 5. Four of my five games tonight I got the champion in either my opening hand or in redraws. Ugh.
Another 50 packs. I wanna say I got... 2 legendaries? I believe it was 2. Cairne Bloodhoof and Prophet Velen. Hearthstone hates my fucking guts and wants me to go to hell and die.
+1
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
Cairne doesn't seem that hot. He looks to be a worse savanah highmane. I don't see him replacing fire elementals for shammies or doomguards or pitlords for aggro warlocks. Not sure what type of deck he fits in.
Prophet Velen does seem good, but priests aren't my forte.
Now I DO have enough dust to craft myself a legendary, but I don't know where to go with it. Or should I craft some earth elementals? Is there even room in a shammy deck for earth elementals? Should I replace venture co mercs with earth elementals? They're both 5 drops. Earth elementals are more badass, but fuck over your next turn pretty bad. What kinds of legendaries fit into a shammy deck anyway? I see lots of people using Ysera.. is that like a good thing or something...
Ysera and Ragnaros are basically the top picks for legendaries.
Earth elementals are better than venture co IMO. Venture co also increases the cost of your minions by 3, so they are essentially the same downside IMO.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
0
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
Turn 1 coin into Fiery War Axe, turn 2 drop a 5/3 Bloodsail Raider + your Corsairs if you have them. Or get boned cause you got both Molten Giants in your opening hand but hey, card games.
Also, Shield Slam is actually the opposite of garbage? This was a relevation to me.
21 cards in the 1-3 mana range, a bunch of removal spells augmented by pocket spell damage if needed, synergistic minions with good value all by themselves, and seperate win conditions in Bloodlust, Ragnaros, and Malygos.
No weapons though, and I'm worried it's spread too thin trying to be everything at once. But then that seems to be the point of Shamans. Shamen. Shaman.
Eveyone should post their ideal decks more! Theorycrafting is fun.
I have a shaman bloodlust-themed deck and I've decided to only run one bloodlust in it
I had lost SEVERAL games getting both of them in my hand
Why Bloodlust is a bad card and you shouldn't play it A theorycrafting exercise by this guy on a forum
First the facts.
Bloodlust: 5 mana, give all your minions +3 attack this turn
Savage Roar: 3 mana, give all your characters +2 attack this turn
Unleash the Hounds: 1 mana, give all your beast +1 attack this turn and charge
Flametongue Totem: 2 mana, 0/3 body, give adjacent minions +2 attack
Now the analysis.
Bloodlust is only good if you have a sizable number of minions on the board already. It can't be used as removal (like Savage Roar and attacking with your hero) when you have nothing. It can't be used for OTK hunter-style, because it is too expensive and you have no charge. Like kaleedity said, it is a dead card in situations where you have nothing on the board.
If you have 1 or 2 minions out, then the Totem is just better, imo. Yes, you get less attack out of it, but a) it is way cheaper and b) it stays on the board. So either it draws a removal spell or it works again on the opponent's turn for even better trades. Even if the opponent just runs a minion in, you are still up those 3 mana (that could be another minion on the board, a totem and a Lighning Bolt and so on).
Now you are saying: "I can only play two Flametongue, I just play both it and Bloodlust". But you don't even have to compare Bloodlust with those. For 4 mana you get a Yeti (4/5 body). If you have 1-2 minions, you are comparing 3-6 damage to a 4/5 body. I'd take the body anyday.
Now if you have 3 or more minions, then obviously Bloodlust looks very strong*. But is it really? I argue the following: If you use Bloodlust as a minion-trading-enhancer, then any mass removal spell would have been better. If both boards are full, then why play Bloodlust and trade all minions? Rather play Lightning Storm (3+2 mana, 2-3 damage to everything, but you have a full board, so hopefully 3-4 damage) and save your totems. If the opponent only has few minions, then even Hex or Lightning Bolt are better. Also if you are trading, you can use Flametongue to machine-gun minions (place between minion 1 and 2, trade with 2, now minion 3 gets the bonus).
But what if the opponents board is empty? Those are the big plays that make Bloodlust so bad. It's a deceptive card that generates plays that feel incredibly good: You have 3 totems and some minion out, you play Bloodlust and swing for 16 to the face. But you had board control anyway. Your opponent has no way to deal with that, because otherwise he would have, he knows Bloodlust is a thing that exists. If you had played a Yeti, you would have cemented your board control. Sure, your win comes a round or two later. But who cares?
Aggro decks do care. They need that win as fast as possible before they burn out. But I would argue that Shaman is shitty for aggro decks. The hero power is just not aggro in any way. It's board control, it's utility, but not aggro. It's too random to count on any specific effect and the only worthwhile (hero power) totem for aggro is the spellpower one. Overload as a mechanic is iffy for aggro. Yes, you get damage now and pay later, but in most cases you will still have to pay before the opponent is dead. Shaman doesn't have the card draw other classes have. There is a reason Murloc is mostly played in Warlock decks, they can keep drawing and playing those murlocs. A Shaman on turn 5 has seen/played 7 cards and hopefully topdecks the Bloodlust. A Warlock can have 4 cards more, that's huge.
Now the caveat that directly contradicts the provocative headline: If you find a way to make Shaman aggro work, then by all means play Bloodlust. It is a great aggro play.
But for all other circumstances, I think of Bloodlust as a very typical win-more-card. It feels like it gives you those wins, but you would have gotten them without it.
The power of Bloodlust is turning a single turn bit of board advantage into a potential immediate win. BL lets you drop huge damage anytime your opponent doesn't clear out enough of your minions at the end of his turn or anytime he doesn't defend himself.
Basically, anytime your opponent leaves you with 3-4 minions of any sort up (and that's not that hard with totems) and no Taunt in your way, BL allows you to turn that into a huge damage spike on the enemy. Or his minions, although I'd generally consider this a lesser attack.
You don't need board control when you drop BL. It's often best to play it when you don't, cause that usually means you both have a bunch of minions out and the clearing hasn't begun yet. All you need is an opening and alot of warm bodies to absorb that +3 attack.
shryke on
+2
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
But why should I care about damage on my opponent unless it's lethal? if you use BL to go for the face while leaving his minions up, then next turn you have no more board (while the opponent keeps his board, because he can freekill your totems) and you lose.
PoGo friend code: 7835 1672 4968
0
Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
how often do you have 4 minions just hanging out without anyone having board control
But why should I care about damage on my opponent unless it's lethal? if you use BL to go for the face while leaving his minions up, then next turn you have no more board (while the opponent keeps his board, because he can freekill your totems) and you lose.
That's why you make sure you kill him or get him close enough it you can do it very very soon afterwords.
You don't lose any minions going for the face anyway, you just put yourself a turn behind on trading and that's not always a big deal, especially when you can trade it for most of your opponents remaining health. You act like clearing your board isn't gonna cost your opponent minions too. You aren't anywhere close to a guaranteed lose after they've chewed through your line.
BL is a way to turn an uncleared board on your side into a huge damage spike. And because of that, it forces your opponent to constantly spend resources keeping your numbers down because they potentially can't afford to eat a BL to the face.
If you want to use BL you maintain board presence and when your opponent gives you what on any other class wouldn't even count as an opening, you can hammer them incredibly hard.
But why should I care about damage on my opponent unless it's lethal? if you use BL to go for the face while leaving his minions up, then next turn you have no more board (while the opponent keeps his board, because he can freekill your totems) and you lose.
That's why you make sure you kill him or get him close enough it you can do it very very soon afterwords.
You don't lose any minions going for the face anyway, you just put yourself a turn behind on trading and that's not always a big deal, especially when you can trade it for most of your opponents remaining health. You act like clearing your board isn't gonna cost your opponent minions too. You aren't anywhere close to a guaranteed lose after they've chewed through your line.
BL is a way to turn an uncleared board on your side into a huge damage spike. And because of that, it forces your opponent to constantly spend resources keeping your numbers down because they potentially can't afford to eat a BL to the face.
If you want to use BL you maintain board presence and when your opponent gives you what on any other class wouldn't even count as an opening, you can hammer them incredibly hard.
(addressing those paragraphs in order)
I argued that you can't do anything afterwards because your board would be gone.
Your opponent loses less than you, because your totems have no attack on his turn.
I get that benefit even without playing Bloodlust, just by playing a Shaman deck. (well, at least as long as most Shaman decks still pack BL) I would argue that good players do this anyway against everyone.
I argued that if you maintain board presence, you win with BL or without and you can use any number of cards to tip things in your favor for 5 mana.
Even if BL was the best play in the situation you describe, it's still a dead card in many other situations. Now this is true for a lot of cards and not necessarily bad, but for me Flametongue plugs the same hole (also same drawback) and is better, so I choose to play only one of them.
I like to think of it as an ergonomical way to keep my weenies relevant in the mid-late game. Also an early win condition for when the stars align and I have it at the right moment against someone who evidently got crap for an early hand. Can't spell winmore without win, or something. I dunno. Gonna swap it out for a second Flametongue though and see how that works out.
edit: also note that I have a lot of removal and direct damage spells in my deck, if that's a factor.
But why should I care about damage on my opponent unless it's lethal? if you use BL to go for the face while leaving his minions up, then next turn you have no more board (while the opponent keeps his board, because he can freekill your totems) and you lose.
That's why you make sure you kill him or get him close enough it you can do it very very soon afterwords.
You don't lose any minions going for the face anyway, you just put yourself a turn behind on trading and that's not always a big deal, especially when you can trade it for most of your opponents remaining health. You act like clearing your board isn't gonna cost your opponent minions too. You aren't anywhere close to a guaranteed lose after they've chewed through your line.
BL is a way to turn an uncleared board on your side into a huge damage spike. And because of that, it forces your opponent to constantly spend resources keeping your numbers down because they potentially can't afford to eat a BL to the face.
If you want to use BL you maintain board presence and when your opponent gives you what on any other class wouldn't even count as an opening, you can hammer them incredibly hard.
(addressing those paragraphs in order)
I argued that you can't do anything afterwards because your board would be gone.
Your opponent loses less than you, because your totems have no attack on his turn.
I get that benefit even without playing Bloodlust, just by playing a Shaman deck. (well, at least as long as most Shaman decks still pack BL) I would argue that good players do this anyway against everyone.
I argued that if you maintain board presence, you win with BL or without and you can use any number of cards to tip things in your favor for 5 mana.
Even if BL was the best play in the situation you describe, it's still a dead card in many other situations. Now this is true for a lot of cards and not necessarily bad, but for me Flametongue plugs the same hole (also same drawback) and is better, so I choose to play only one of them.
It's not though. Flametongue is only +4 damage. Over a long time it MIGHT be more (if it's not cleared) but that's the whole point. You can't necessarily win without BL because things can change. BL allows you to quickly capitalize on an opening to the extent that you can end the game.
And your opponent may lose a few less minions because of totems, but that ignores that the more totems he's clearing (and thus not trading minions for) the less dominant your position was and the more power BL added to your attack. A 4 totem and nothing else army is worth shit all on it's own. It's 1 damage, 1 spell power and a 2 HP tank. It's not dominant at all, even if it's 4 minions. Without BL, it's nothing. With BL, it's 13 damage, which can easily win the game. (That's why BL affects totems after all.)
And, of course, attacking totems just chews up attacks from your opponent allowing you breathing room to regain board presence.
The easiest way to see the difference is with a control-style deck from any other class. You have to maintain board superiority for longer in order to slowly whittle down the enemy and keep his side clear. And all of that introduces chances for reverses. Which do happen because BL does not require a fully dominant position either on the board or with hand size. It lets you turn what would not be a guaranteed win position, or even close to one, into a potentially instant win.
I like to think of it as an ergonomical way to keep my weenies relevant in the mid-late game. Also an early win condition for when the stars align and I have it at the right moment against someone who evidently got crap for an early hand. Can't spell winmore without win, or something. I dunno. Gonna swap it out for a second Flametongue though and see how that works out.
edit: also note that I have a lot of removal and direct damage spells in my deck, if that's a factor.
Yeah, it should probably be noted that the Basic-only Shaman deck has basically zero removal. It's got Frost Shock and that's it.
Which generally means you are doing alot more trading to keep the other guy's board presence down.
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
It's not though. Flametongue is only +4 damage. Over a long time it MIGHT be more (if it's not cleared) but that's the whole point. You can't necessarily win without BL because things can change. BL allows you to quickly capitalize on an opening to the extent that you can end the game.
Flametongue is extremely powerful because it continues to buff any minion directly next to it if you're trading your minion/totem into something and it dies. Meaning in one turn alone it can give a ridiculous amount of +damage, allowing you to trade your free totems or inefficient minions into much stronger creatures far more efficiently.
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I typed a short response, but found that I was just repeating stuff from my earlier posts. I think our main difference is that I value hero HP less and bodies on the board more than you. Maybe this comes down to a playstyle thing.
Anyway it was nice to get some discussion going, hopefully it also helped someone else.
Well, I shouldn't have lamented that 2-3 arena run cause I just followed it up with a 1-3 run. What a complete waste of the 100 quest reward.
Fuck, it's god-damn depressing to realize that you're the terrible scrub player that the "leet" streamers beat the piss out of on a daily basis.
I don't think a bad Arena run is a waste! You get a pack, so that's 100 of your 150 entrance fee, and then you get a handful of gold and dust too. So at worst you've paid like 20-30 extra gold for the chance to play Arena, which seems still pretty OK.
4-2 so far in my current run; like you, I find sometimes I play apparently terrible scrubs and sometimes I sit there marveling at the Machievellian brilliance of my opponent.
It's not though. Flametongue is only +4 damage. Over a long time it MIGHT be more (if it's not cleared) but that's the whole point. You can't necessarily win without BL because things can change. BL allows you to quickly capitalize on an opening to the extent that you can end the game.
Flametongue is extremely powerful because it continues to buff any minion directly next to it if you're trading your minion/totem into something and it dies. Meaning in one turn alone it can give a ridiculous amount of +damage, allowing you to trade your free totems or inefficient minions into much stronger creatures far more efficiently.
I never said it was BAD.
It's just nothing like BL. They don't serve anything close to the same purpose.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I typed a short response, but found that I was just repeating stuff from my earlier posts. I think our main difference is that I value hero HP less and bodies on the board more than you. Maybe this comes down to a playstyle thing.
Anyway it was nice to get some discussion going, hopefully it also helped someone else.
The point is that BL lets you shift to caring about hero HP from an initial "bodies on the board" position. (or, you know, just beat down the board too I guess) Board control is not an end, it's a means to an end. BL turns that means into that end very quickly and decisively.
It's definitely about how you use it. As a standard buff for everyday clearing, it's ok. But it also opens up the ability to open an incredible amount of whoopass very quickly from a not-necessarily-dominant position.
shryke on
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Big Red Tiebeautiful clydesdale style feettoo hot to trotRegistered Userregular
its just hard to get a bloodlust usable board on a good opponent
The problem with Mind Control it is an amazing two for one card. Both 100% efficient removal and summon a powerful minion for yourself.
Usually one has to choose between summoning a minion or playing removal on an opponents minion. There is no choice here.
The way the game works I can't see a way of increasing the cost to reflect its effect so the only answer is to remove some of the value. There are many ways to do so, such as making the effect temporary, or reducing the controlled minions health for example, so I assume that is the way things will go in the end.
+1
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7z192I-mQM
<edit> *looks at the card Millhouse Manastorm* Jesus Christ. Why would anybody want to play this ever... I guess if you instantly silence it with something.
The problem with Mind Control l it is an amazing two for one card. Both 100% efficient removal and summon a powerful minion for yourself.
Usually one has to choose between summoning a minion or playing removal on an opponents minion. There is no choice here.
The way the game works I can't see a way of increasing the cost to reflect its effect so the only answer is to remove some of the value. There are many ways to do so, such as making the effect temporary, or reducing the controlled minions health for example, so I assume that is the way things will go in the end.
Edits for clarity:
Make Mind Control slightly cheaper, but cause it to pull the enemy minion from the board into your hand. It would increase the minions worth MC'ing (since Battlecry would be a consideration), but would have less value against enemy minions that have been buffed to high heaven (still have the removal factor, but less of a game changer). If you kept the cost as is but used this type of effect, maybe give a discount to casting the creature or some other limiter (free to cast, but may only be cast next turn)?
ResIpsaLoquitur on
League of Legends: MichaelDominick; Blizzard(NA): MichaelD#11402; Steam ID: MichaelDominick
Posts
And Mind Games brought Prophet Velen out for me... ridiculous.
Had a massive drawn out game against a mage last night. Can't remember the exact details, but do you know where his pyroblast was? His very last card! It did win him the game though.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
This just in, mages with Pyroblast and Fireball are bullshit in arena.
This also just in, Turn 1 Coin - Defias Ringleaders still wins games for Rogues.
Breaking news, Raging Worgen, Thrallmar Farseer and Blessing of Kings means you're dead by turn fucking 5.
Finally for tonight, fuck going 2-3 in arena.
spend it all on those louis vuitton legendaries
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
i don't know what went wrong :C
Fuck, it's god-damn depressing to realize that you're the terrible scrub player that the "leet" streamers beat the piss out of on a daily basis.
warlock vs. priest
really tight the whole game
at the end I have 6 life and he has 4
I use hellfire (with some +sp damage to make it do 5). He, and all his minions die ... including that leper gnome, which hits me for 2, killing me.
This is considered a defeat? Did the other guy get a defeat also?
Yes, loss for both players.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
Prophet Velen does seem good, but priests aren't my forte.
Now I DO have enough dust to craft myself a legendary, but I don't know where to go with it. Or should I craft some earth elementals? Is there even room in a shammy deck for earth elementals? Should I replace venture co mercs with earth elementals? They're both 5 drops. Earth elementals are more badass, but fuck over your next turn pretty bad. What kinds of legendaries fit into a shammy deck anyway? I see lots of people using Ysera.. is that like a good thing or something...
Earth elementals are better than venture co IMO. Venture co also increases the cost of your minions by 3, so they are essentially the same downside IMO.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
earth elemental is also pretty great
so is ysera
2x Upgrade!
2x Heroic Strike
2x Fiery War Axe
2x Acidic Swamp Ooze
2x Bloodsail Raider
2x Shield Block
2x Big Game Hunter
2x Warsong Commander
2x Bloodsail Corsair
2x Kor'kron Elite
2x Spellbreaker
2x Arcanite Reaper
1x Captain Greenskin
1x Gorehowl
2x Molten Giant
Turn 1 coin into Fiery War Axe, turn 2 drop a 5/3 Bloodsail Raider + your Corsairs if you have them. Or get boned cause you got both Molten Giants in your opening hand but hey, card games.
Also, Shield Slam is actually the opposite of garbage? This was a relevation to me.
yaaaaaaaaay!
should i commence with dropping at 8 if i don't play constructed?
Why Bloodlust is a bad card and you shouldn't play it
A theorycrafting exercise by this guy on a forum
First the facts.
Bloodlust: 5 mana, give all your minions +3 attack this turn
Savage Roar: 3 mana, give all your characters +2 attack this turn
Unleash the Hounds: 1 mana, give all your beast +1 attack this turn and charge
Flametongue Totem: 2 mana, 0/3 body, give adjacent minions +2 attack
Now the analysis.
Bloodlust is only good if you have a sizable number of minions on the board already. It can't be used as removal (like Savage Roar and attacking with your hero) when you have nothing. It can't be used for OTK hunter-style, because it is too expensive and you have no charge. Like kaleedity said, it is a dead card in situations where you have nothing on the board.
If you have 1 or 2 minions out, then the Totem is just better, imo. Yes, you get less attack out of it, but a) it is way cheaper and b) it stays on the board. So either it draws a removal spell or it works again on the opponent's turn for even better trades. Even if the opponent just runs a minion in, you are still up those 3 mana (that could be another minion on the board, a totem and a Lighning Bolt and so on).
Now you are saying: "I can only play two Flametongue, I just play both it and Bloodlust". But you don't even have to compare Bloodlust with those. For 4 mana you get a Yeti (4/5 body). If you have 1-2 minions, you are comparing 3-6 damage to a 4/5 body. I'd take the body anyday.
Now if you have 3 or more minions, then obviously Bloodlust looks very strong*. But is it really? I argue the following: If you use Bloodlust as a minion-trading-enhancer, then any mass removal spell would have been better. If both boards are full, then why play Bloodlust and trade all minions? Rather play Lightning Storm (3+2 mana, 2-3 damage to everything, but you have a full board, so hopefully 3-4 damage) and save your totems. If the opponent only has few minions, then even Hex or Lightning Bolt are better. Also if you are trading, you can use Flametongue to machine-gun minions (place between minion 1 and 2, trade with 2, now minion 3 gets the bonus).
But what if the opponents board is empty? Those are the big plays that make Bloodlust so bad. It's a deceptive card that generates plays that feel incredibly good: You have 3 totems and some minion out, you play Bloodlust and swing for 16 to the face. But you had board control anyway. Your opponent has no way to deal with that, because otherwise he would have, he knows Bloodlust is a thing that exists. If you had played a Yeti, you would have cemented your board control. Sure, your win comes a round or two later. But who cares?
Aggro decks do care. They need that win as fast as possible before they burn out. But I would argue that Shaman is shitty for aggro decks. The hero power is just not aggro in any way. It's board control, it's utility, but not aggro. It's too random to count on any specific effect and the only worthwhile (hero power) totem for aggro is the spellpower one. Overload as a mechanic is iffy for aggro. Yes, you get damage now and pay later, but in most cases you will still have to pay before the opponent is dead. Shaman doesn't have the card draw other classes have. There is a reason Murloc is mostly played in Warlock decks, they can keep drawing and playing those murlocs. A Shaman on turn 5 has seen/played 7 cards and hopefully topdecks the Bloodlust. A Warlock can have 4 cards more, that's huge.
Now the caveat that directly contradicts the provocative headline: If you find a way to make Shaman aggro work, then by all means play Bloodlust. It is a great aggro play.
But for all other circumstances, I think of Bloodlust as a very typical win-more-card. It feels like it gives you those wins, but you would have gotten them without it.
And here I link my Shaman Deck again: http://hearthhead.com/deck=4768/thrallball
The power of Bloodlust is turning a single turn bit of board advantage into a potential immediate win. BL lets you drop huge damage anytime your opponent doesn't clear out enough of your minions at the end of his turn or anytime he doesn't defend himself.
Basically, anytime your opponent leaves you with 3-4 minions of any sort up (and that's not that hard with totems) and no Taunt in your way, BL allows you to turn that into a huge damage spike on the enemy. Or his minions, although I'd generally consider this a lesser attack.
You don't need board control when you drop BL. It's often best to play it when you don't, cause that usually means you both have a bunch of minions out and the clearing hasn't begun yet. All you need is an opening and alot of warm bodies to absorb that +3 attack.
cause
That's why you make sure you kill him or get him close enough it you can do it very very soon afterwords.
You don't lose any minions going for the face anyway, you just put yourself a turn behind on trading and that's not always a big deal, especially when you can trade it for most of your opponents remaining health. You act like clearing your board isn't gonna cost your opponent minions too. You aren't anywhere close to a guaranteed lose after they've chewed through your line.
BL is a way to turn an uncleared board on your side into a huge damage spike. And because of that, it forces your opponent to constantly spend resources keeping your numbers down because they potentially can't afford to eat a BL to the face.
If you want to use BL you maintain board presence and when your opponent gives you what on any other class wouldn't even count as an opening, you can hammer them incredibly hard.
Including totems?
Not uncommon at all.
(addressing those paragraphs in order)
I argued that you can't do anything afterwards because your board would be gone.
Your opponent loses less than you, because your totems have no attack on his turn.
I get that benefit even without playing Bloodlust, just by playing a Shaman deck. (well, at least as long as most Shaman decks still pack BL) I would argue that good players do this anyway against everyone.
I argued that if you maintain board presence, you win with BL or without and you can use any number of cards to tip things in your favor for 5 mana.
Even if BL was the best play in the situation you describe, it's still a dead card in many other situations. Now this is true for a lot of cards and not necessarily bad, but for me Flametongue plugs the same hole (also same drawback) and is better, so I choose to play only one of them.
edit: also note that I have a lot of removal and direct damage spells in my deck, if that's a factor.
It's not though. Flametongue is only +4 damage. Over a long time it MIGHT be more (if it's not cleared) but that's the whole point. You can't necessarily win without BL because things can change. BL allows you to quickly capitalize on an opening to the extent that you can end the game.
And your opponent may lose a few less minions because of totems, but that ignores that the more totems he's clearing (and thus not trading minions for) the less dominant your position was and the more power BL added to your attack. A 4 totem and nothing else army is worth shit all on it's own. It's 1 damage, 1 spell power and a 2 HP tank. It's not dominant at all, even if it's 4 minions. Without BL, it's nothing. With BL, it's 13 damage, which can easily win the game. (That's why BL affects totems after all.)
And, of course, attacking totems just chews up attacks from your opponent allowing you breathing room to regain board presence.
The easiest way to see the difference is with a control-style deck from any other class. You have to maintain board superiority for longer in order to slowly whittle down the enemy and keep his side clear. And all of that introduces chances for reverses. Which do happen because BL does not require a fully dominant position either on the board or with hand size. It lets you turn what would not be a guaranteed win position, or even close to one, into a potentially instant win.
Yeah, it should probably be noted that the Basic-only Shaman deck has basically zero removal. It's got Frost Shock and that's it.
Which generally means you are doing alot more trading to keep the other guy's board presence down.
Anyway it was nice to get some discussion going, hopefully it also helped someone else.
I don't think a bad Arena run is a waste! You get a pack, so that's 100 of your 150 entrance fee, and then you get a handful of gold and dust too. So at worst you've paid like 20-30 extra gold for the chance to play Arena, which seems still pretty OK.
4-2 so far in my current run; like you, I find sometimes I play apparently terrible scrubs and sometimes I sit there marveling at the Machievellian brilliance of my opponent.
I never said it was BAD.
It's just nothing like BL. They don't serve anything close to the same purpose.
The point is that BL lets you shift to caring about hero HP from an initial "bodies on the board" position. (or, you know, just beat down the board too I guess) Board control is not an end, it's a means to an end. BL turns that means into that end very quickly and decisively.
It's definitely about how you use it. As a standard buff for everyday clearing, it's ok. But it also opens up the ability to open an incredible amount of whoopass very quickly from a not-necessarily-dominant position.
card is too situational
I feel sad even playing a minion. Dulce et decorum, little dudes.
Usually one has to choose between summoning a minion or playing removal on an opponents minion. There is no choice here.
The way the game works I can't see a way of increasing the cost to reflect its effect so the only answer is to remove some of the value. There are many ways to do so, such as making the effect temporary, or reducing the controlled minions health for example, so I assume that is the way things will go in the end.
I just found the best use of Milhouse ever
(Noxious is playing a deck loaded with random effects there)
Edits for clarity:
Make Mind Control slightly cheaper, but cause it to pull the enemy minion from the board into your hand. It would increase the minions worth MC'ing (since Battlecry would be a consideration), but would have less value against enemy minions that have been buffed to high heaven (still have the removal factor, but less of a game changer). If you kept the cost as is but used this type of effect, maybe give a discount to casting the creature or some other limiter (free to cast, but may only be cast next turn)?