I have enjoyed PVP before, but I agree with Jeep 100%. Having PVP in your game invites the "how can I fuck with other players" element into the game, and those people are not going to just stay in the PVP area and be content.
Well, yeah, but assholes online are a product of online play, not pvp. I love pvp and I don't grief people. And everyone here that has pugged in ME3 has met an asshole who shouts racist or sexist shit or "teabags" people in MP by rez-canceling or kicking them from group for no reason.
The reason we mostly enjoy ME3 MP is because we have formed a community of PAers who enjoy playing together and not cause grief by being internet assholes. In a pvp option, we'd still have that option, just like when I pvp with my guild in WoW or play Battlefield with my brother.
Assholes will be assholes every where online. Reddit, WoW, Battlefield, Halo, and ME3.
We're actually spoiled here on PA, because our mods do a great job enforcing the Glorious Edict.
No I haven't, man, and I'm on LIVE. That's like, the spawning pool for those people! This is literally the only online MP shooter I will play with strangers, because it's got almost no assholes!
If you add PVP, the "l33t peeveepeeers" will show up, and they will ruin everything they touch.
Mild Confusion - I love you man, but I'm not sold at all on a PvP MP idea. I mean yeah, I was among the luddites who said any MP would make the SP worse - but I was wrong, so there. I love ME3 MP. But I'm thinking of a PvP MP in addition to to a PvE horde mode and all I can think of are nice PA dudes like yourself ditching the PvE environment which I like to play for the more "l33t" environment of PvP and I'm stuck with useless pubbies in PvE with 0.1% of the character of the fine gentlemen and ladies of this thread.
Naw, you'd never have to worry about that. If all I cared about was killing peoples, I would never have stuck with the ME multiplayer.
What I like more than killing people is the community. I can go into WoW or any other online game and kill dudes at will. But I don't unless I'm part of a group of people I know. Killing people online isn't what makes it fun. Killing people with friends is what makes it fun.
That's why I do horde mode on Halo and still sometimes raid in WoW. The only reason I don't do it hardcore anymore is work and kids.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yeah, I don't really see ME PVP being very interesting but I certainly don't agree with the idea that competitive community are automatically worse than PVE communities.
Maybe they aren't inherently, but it sure as hell is easier to be a jackass in PvP than in PvE.
I mean, you really have to go out of your way to be a dick in ME3 Multiplayer, like the example Shadowhope gave - and even then, doing stuff like that hurts yourself as well because your team is less likely to finish the wave.
I'd rather see an improved co-op mode than a PVP mode. Give us co-op campaign or more co-op modes over the ability to energy drain and then snipe someone in the face from half a mile away, rendering them and any class that isn't prepared to handle that obsolete.
This hatred of pvp is unrational. If Bioware added a pvp mode today, it would have zero effect on the horde mode we've been playing for a year.
It's completely optional. It's just like all the hate people had before ME3 was released and people bitched about the completely option multiplayer in the first place.
Just add a limit to how many times a person can be stunned. Vanguard charges and stuns you? Now you can't get stunned for five seconds. Don't want to play pvp? Then don't.
Actually, it would. Note the difference between multiplayer weapons and singleplayer weapons, for one. If you really think they're going to have three sets of weapon stats and attributes for the game then you're smoking something. Consider also that your single player and multiplayer inventories are separate. And what if they do? Well, this could also potentially add for another inventory full of the rares and ultras that so many love to complain about not having. Or maybe the PVP gets preformed kits? Now everybody has to deal with the PVP people wanting the same diversity that would be functionally difficult to maintain.
Now let's throw in the maps, which are built around horde style gameplay. Playing the same maps in a PVP environment would be a quagmire of camping or just wandering around finding people. Or they make a set of maps for a niche within a niche, because really how many people want to PVP mass effect? A lot less than those who wanted Horde, which means resources wasted on making maps designed to support PVP play in addition to maps for PVE and singleplayer content. There's only so much one group of people can do, which potentially means the quality of what's provided suffers or some content is simply wasted.
Then there's the matter of hosting. A lot of games with secondary multiplayer modes don't have dedicated servers, hell games that are primarily multiplayer also lack them. This means one player has an innate advantage over the others assuming that it's asynch matches. If it's synched matches then you have the potential to run into matches that are barely playable due to lag. Either way, the only person having the most fun and/or an experience closer to what was intended is the hosting player. So everybody hosts? Good luck finding a game.
While I understand that PVP is a thing that people for some reason want in ME... it really seems like it's just a Bad Idea.
The rules between single player and multiplayer are already different.
Medigel cannot revive a downed Shepard, it works on squadmates. In MP, it's opposite.
Shepard can carry a heavier load of weapons and up to five, MP gets two.
In SP, the enemy mainly focus on Shepard, making powers like lash (a multiplayer ability) harder to use, because of explosure time. MP is different, because the AI reacts differently to four human players vs one human and two AI allies.
Shepard can sprint, charge, and cloak with the pizza, MP characters cannot.
Bioware already balances between the two different game options. Is it so hard to believe that Bioware couldn't balance between pvp horde mode as well?
More and more MMO's are balancing between pvp and pve. Adding different stats and abilities doing different things when used on a player vs used on an NPC.
The host problem is just shitty netcode, but it's not like games like Battlefield don't suffer from bad host issues.
Maybe we should take a few steps back so I can get an idea of what you are looking for in a "Mass Effect 3 PVP" experience, because medigel, the weapon limit, and sprinting are all mechanical differences between SP and MP, and have nothing to do with balance.
Shepard can't revive himself because that's a game over condition. Shepard going DBNO in singleplayer would trivialize the game even more than shields+infinite hp+cover system already does, or they'd have to balance the game around the AI being able to revive the player, which means gibs and other things found in games where the AI can bring you back.
You only get two weapons because having five and a wheel that pauses the game when accessed to change it simply isn't viable in an MP environment. It's simpler that way. If they had the wheel (when at least 75% of a franchise's base is on the console, it's going to have console-centric gameplay... deal with it) in MP without the pausing then people would get dropped picking their weapon. that also means potentially loading 5 or more weapon models per player. Not ideal for optimizing performance.
That you bring up the pizza in this conversation makes me wonder what kind of PVP experience you're looking for? CTF? Movement speed is impaired when you have the flag in PVP games.
Where are you going with this?
And mechanical issues are all that would seperate between pvp and pve. In horde mode, you can lash a phantom. But what happens if you try to lash something with armor? It gets staggered. So all players fighting other players suffers from that issue.
Lash, stasis, singularity, all those abilities either just stagger the player or just have sets with those abilities be given different powers in different modes. Make it so a person cannot be staggered more than once every X seconds.
Seriously, saying that all the difference between SP and MP are mechanical? Mechanics are what would seperate between pvp and pve. That is why I brought up the pizza, because it shows that Bioware can balance between two different modes. SP has one mechanic, MP has another, pvp would have a third.
Which would take us full-circle back to "a pvp game set in the ME universe would be so neutered that it wouldn't even feel like you're playing an ME game..."?
So you'd have super powerful shepard, super powerful co-op N7 guys, and gimped pvp dudes...
If you absolutely have to have PVP, then it'd probably only be able to be done with just enemy faction characters. So you can play as a Cannibal or Maurader and go up against a Collector General.
The reason I want ME pvp is because ME3 combat hits the sweet spot in what I enjoy about gameplay. The weapons are responsive, but there is also magic.
I love playing Halo and Battlefield online and shooting people, but shooting gets boring after a while because it's too simple.
I also enjoy playing pvp in WoW and typically play at a 2400 rating (epeen), but there are so many damn abilities that it's frustrating at times because it's overly complex.
ME3 has shooting and powers. The combat is simple and easy to learn, but it also has depth to it. You can choose not only your powers and weapons, but also how you customize those powers and weapons. Biotic, and tech combos, geth scanners, positioning, staggers, weapons powers, biotic bubble, placing a singularity in a choke point, all of this is a combination of strategies taken from both FPS shooters and MMO's.
I want to be able to kill mans with this unique blend of magic and action/shooting/realtime combat.
Fighting people is fun. One thing I see a lot in this thread is how boring platinum is. And it is boring, because it's just bosses with inflated health. You can only get so challenging by fighting an AI. When we fight guys on a harder challenge, we want that challenge to be mentally challanging, not frustrating by facing the same intellect as gold, but with more health. That's where the appeal of pvp comes from. You fight something that is creative, proactive, reactive, and sometimes random. Not something that is programmed to act in a certain way everytime.
I'm not saying that all AI is worse than players. Quite the opposite, a lot of AI's in games are well done. Two games I can think of that have fun AI is Halo and the Citadel DLC.
Halo's Elites are balanced like the player. They have shields that regenerate and can use all the powers and abilities that the player has. Everytime I fight an Elite in Halo, I know I am in for a challange. Each fight is different, because the Halo AI reacts similar to a person.
The Citadel CAT-6 and [REDACTED] enemies are also very fun to fight. Their AI is much better than the base enemies and react more fluidly.
Eh, while I liked PVP in the old WoW, and enjoyed the early battleground days, I had absolutely no interest in the arena and subsequent culture that developed afterward. I haven't played in years, so maybe it changed, but I doubt it has developed beyond the game now being "raiding vs players" or "raiding in dungeons". Just saying. Of course back then servers were more like communities with all the drama and fun that entails and yadda-yadda the times have long a changed.
That said, the very powers and things that you like so much in this game, applied to a PVP environment, would have to be so heavily modified in order to make for a balanced multiplayer experience that they would not feel like a Mass Effect game anymore.
A very good example of this would be the multiplayer in Bioshock 2. That's not to say that I thought that the MP there was horrible (it was fun if you got into a match that wasn't a lagfest), but the same plasmids and stuff really paled in comparison to their singleplayer counterparts. Some of them were also not fun to have spammed on you. Mass Effect's powers are built around crowd control... and there's a hell of more of it in ME than in BS.
What is/was one of the biggest complaint about WoW PvP? Crowd Control abilities. In fact there's a mess of different types of CC that the game has now to somehow straddle the line between keeping defending players from being CC'd to death while still allowing players whose classes depend on CC to still be able to do that. Not to mention trinkets, etc, etc.
What is the biggest feature of Mass Effect 3 Powers? Crowd Control.
Furthermore, there's the matter of dots and priming. Currently the only ways to remove a dot from yourself is to a) die, b) use an ops pack, c) be a class that can boost shields. Even if it was team based MP, that's one dude whose entire cooldown cycle would potentially be spent removing dots and resetting primes.
What about an ability to do that yourself, you ask? ME3 uses a universal cooldown. Such an ability power would have to be short enough to allow for players to have a chance to negate a power, yet long enough to actually allow an attacking player to actually use his or his teammate's priming effect to do something.
At its best, it'd be a one sided slaughter. At worst, a turtle fest of people shooting each other and refreshing their one universal power to keep themselves from being killed by an explosion and/or helpless. It's just not something I can see working without changing the game at its core.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
I have enjoyed PVP before, but I agree with Jeep 100%. Having PVP in your game invites the "how can I fuck with other players" element into the game, and those people are not going to just stay in the PVP area and be content.
Well, yeah, but assholes online are a product of online play, not pvp. I love pvp and I don't grief people. And everyone here that has pugged in ME3 has met an asshole who shouts racist or sexist shit or "teabags" people in MP by rez-canceling or kicking them from group for no reason.
The reason we mostly enjoy ME3 MP is because we have formed a community of PAers who enjoy playing together and not cause grief by being internet assholes. In a pvp option, we'd still have that option, just like when I pvp with my guild in WoW or play Battlefield with my brother.
Assholes will be assholes every where online. Reddit, WoW, Battlefield, Halo, and ME3.
We're actually spoiled here on PA, because our mods do a great job enforcing the Glorious Edict.
No I haven't, man, and I'm on LIVE. That's like, the spawning pool for those people! This is literally the only online MP shooter I will play with strangers, because it's got almost no assholes!
If you add PVP, the "l33t peeveepeeers" will show up, and they will ruin everything they touch.
You're very lucky.
People will grief everywhere. Assholes who host and disconnect in the final wave so you have to start the wave over again. Jerks who invite a fourth person, just to yell bullshit and kick them. People who just kinda move enough to not AFK out, but don't play, so they can get "free" credits. People who exploit by missle glitching or abusing the terrain.
Assholes and pvp are not mutually inclusive.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I am approaching serviceable in Gold. I still get 1 hit boss killed sometimes, cause I don't know the proper timing to biotic charge bosses but I am getting there.
I still score last or second to last. I don't think my weapons do me any favors but I can also use that as an excuse for my suckiness.
I'd rather see an improved co-op mode than a PVP mode. Give us co-op campaign or more co-op modes over the ability to energy drain and then snipe someone in the face from half a mile away, rendering them and any class that isn't prepared to handle that obsolete.
Actually, it's worse than that.
It's an entire team of GI in Hunter mode with Javelins doing that THROUGH WALLS.
Edit: And I'm not saying "PVP is assholes", I'm saying "the kind of people who are primarily attracted to PVP games include a larger percentage of asshole than otherwise present in PVE populations". Look at ANY primarily PVP content. LoL, WoW arena, RTS... I don't want to play with those people. I don't care if they want to play with me or not. They can have their entire genres, just don't get any in mine.
The ones I never get are the 'free' credit guys. I mean the afk timer isn't that lenient, you have to more or less be holding the controller while your doing whatever the fuck you're doing.
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ElixirSaving Your AssAlchemists and Belts EverywhereRegistered Userregular
The ones I never get are the 'free' credit guys. I mean the afk timer isn't that lenient, you have to more or less be holding the controller while your doing whatever the fuck you're doing.
True. You basically can get up and quickly grab a drink/tasty adult beverage. That is about it.
The ones I never get are the 'free' credit guys. I mean the afk timer isn't that lenient, you have to more or less be holding the controller while your doing whatever the fuck you're doing.
My guess is they're rubberbanding.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Eh, while I liked PVP in the old WoW, and enjoyed the early battleground days, I had absolutely no interest in the arena and subsequent culture that developed afterward. I haven't played in years, so maybe it changed, but I doubt it has developed beyond the game now being "raiding vs players" or "raiding in dungeons". Just saying. Of course back then servers were more like communities with all the drama and fun that entails and yadda-yadda the times have long a changed.
That said, the very powers and things that you like so much in this game, applied to a PVP environment, would have to be so heavily modified in order to make for a balanced multiplayer experience that they would not feel like a Mass Effect game anymore.
A very good example of this would be the multiplayer in Bioshock 2. That's not to say that I thought that the MP there was horrible (it was fun if you got into a match that wasn't a lagfest), but the same plasmids and stuff really paled in comparison to their singleplayer counterparts. Some of them were also not fun to have spammed on you. Mass Effect's powers are built around crowd control... and there's a hell of more of it in ME than in BS.
What is/was one of the biggest complaint about WoW PvP? Crowd Control abilities. In fact there's a mess of different types of CC that the game has now to somehow straddle the line between keeping defending players from being CC'd to death while still allowing players whose classes depend on CC to still be able to do that. Not to mention trinkets, etc, etc.
What is the biggest feature of Mass Effect 3 Powers? Crowd Control.
Furthermore, there's the matter of dots and priming. Currently the only ways to remove a dot from yourself is to a) die, b) use an ops pack, c) be a class that can boost shields. Even if it was team based MP, that's one dude whose entire cooldown cycle would potentially be spent removing dots and resetting primes.
What about an ability to do that yourself, you ask? ME3 uses a universal cooldown. Such an ability power would have to be short enough to allow for players to have a chance to negate a power, yet long enough to actually allow an attacking player to actually use his or his teammate's priming effect to do something.
At its best, it'd be a one sided slaughter. At worst, a turtle fest of people shooting each other and refreshing their one universal power to keep themselves from being killed by an explosion and/or helpless. It's just not something I can see working without changing the game at its core.
WoW pvp has changed up quite a bit the past few years. CC's were reduced down to 8 seconds and there are now more abilities that share diminishing returns than ever. The focus has been turned from arena to rated battlegrounds and more and more abilities are being seperatly tuned to have different effects based on a boss, normal mob, and a player. They also added a new pvp stat called pvp power, which effects damage and healing done.
There are still issues, but much better than it was years ago.
But anyhow, ME3. I figured CC between players would be just like it is now, a simple stagger. But add in an internal cooldown to how often you can be staggered. A vanguard charges you? You get staggered and cannot get staggered again for five seconds.
Biotics and powers like concussive shot really are not much different than grenades in other games, except that they follow track the player. On the other hand, they can also be dodged. Hit scan powers have always been weaker, plus cannot go around cover. It would even add a new strategy; instead of detonating a biotic/tech combo immediatly, you'd want to wait till they can be staggered again.
The shields/dot thing can be tweaked so that powers like incenerate or warp either tick down faster, like over two seconds, or do all their damage at once, but still leave them debuffed and primed for a detonation for, let's say five seconds.
Change stasis to a cryo blast type debuff where it hitscans you and you walk X% slower to get out of it. Singularity will stagger a person it hits, like the other powers, but will remain for X seconds and anyone who runs into it will also be staggered.
Balancing MP for pvp wouldn't require changing the mechanics too much and it wouldn't have to effect the horde mode.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
But how tough would people be? A vanguard charge + shotgun to the face ends everything up to and including mini-bosses, as does cloak, or a biotic explosion. The only thing less fun than stunlocks in PvP is being one-shot, and reducing numbers would defeat a large part of why I enjoy ME3's multi in the first place.
Yeah, basically all the things that make ME combat fun are things that tend not to be enjoyable in PVP.
Which is what everyones being saying. Yes you could have ME PVP, but by the time you made something fun out of it it wouldn't be ME PVP. It'd just be PVP that happened to be themed the same as ME.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
The thing is I've seen the pvp mindset get carried into PVE, I've been there and watched it happen. I'm thinking specifically of SWTOR and how they added a new area with a cordened off section of PVP... and the pvp people took the "versus" mindset directly into the pve area and started fucking with people trying to down bosses. Yeah there's always been some of that in the game (usually it's the opposing faction either attacking the boss before you can get your team ready, or attacking your raid because one of your people is flagged.) But that area brought it to a whole new level, because the pvp wasn't just faction v faction, it was free for all. So when a republic asshole wanted to stop his fellow republic faction from taking a boss down, he'd taunt it away and make it reset.
Yes, the asshole is universal and there are always going to be those people in the game. But PVP breeds and multiplies a special kind of asshole, and I'd like to keep that out of Mass Effect. Because even the worst pug I've ever dealt with in ME MP wasn't as bad as the "Fuck with everybody, all the time" assholes I've met as a result of pvp.
There's always a balance between one shots and shooting a level 1 Avenger for a minute straight.
Shield gate is kinda already in place to help with that. Just make it so that shotguns can't completely disregard the shield gate.
Rezzing players in pvp would also add a new strategic dynamic. Does the team risk rezzing their guy and getting shot up in the process? Or does the opposing team keep a guy to watch for the dead dude using medi-gel and rezzing themselves or an infiltrator sneaking in.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Ok, I take it back, no ME3 PvP modes, just give me something other then 4 player horde mode to play with friends. I love this game to death and am enjoying getting back into multiplayer now, but I like variety too and it just feels like a wasted opportunity when people are so ravenous for more Mass Effect of any kind.
There's always a balance between one shots and shooting a level 1 Avenger for a minute straight.
Shield gate is kinda already in place to help with that. Just make it so that shotguns can't completely disregard the shield gate.
Rezzing players in pvp would also add a new strategic dynamic. Does the team risk rezzing their guy and getting shot up in the process? Or does the opposing team keep a guy to watch for the dead dude using medi-gel and rezzing themselves or an infiltrator sneaking in.
Charge, melee during stagger, unload Claymore. Get kill.
If that doesn't get a kill then the game no longer feels satisfyingly lethal like ME combat and if it does get a kill then it'd be fucking obnoxious to combat.
Or
Cloak, Energy drain, Widow headshot.
Reave into Warp
Mother fucking Dark channel
So much stuff.
Like I said, I'm not arguing that you can't 'do' ME themed PVP, just that you wouldn't get it feeling like mass effect does and it'd basically be a different game in much more than a few minor mechanical and balance ways like the difference between single and co-op play in ME3.
Outside of reactor hazard never really seen any real griefing on xbox. At least never seem someone grab the delivery and run away which is only clear griefing I can think of.
Granted you get people that ignore objectives, but that is generally a coin toss between them being newbs or people using "advanced" tactics. Thankfully one person almost can't ruin a match.
The thing is I've seen the pvp mindset get carried into PVE, I've been there and watched it happen. I'm thinking specifically of SWTOR and how they added a new area with a cordened off section of PVP... and the pvp people took the "versus" mindset directly into the pve area and started fucking with people trying to down bosses. Yeah there's always been some of that in the game (usually it's the opposing faction either attacking the boss before you can get your team ready, or attacking your raid because one of your people is flagged.) But that area brought it to a whole new level, because the pvp wasn't just faction v faction, it was free for all. So when a republic asshole wanted to stop his fellow republic faction from taking a boss down, he'd taunt it away and make it reset.
Yes, the asshole is universal and there are always going to be those people in the game. But PVP breeds and multiplies a special kind of asshole, and I'd like to keep that out of Mass Effect. Because even the worst pug I've ever dealt with in ME MP wasn't as bad as the "Fuck with everybody, all the time" assholes I've met as a result of pvp.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I quit TOR, the pvp scene was awful. I blame that more on the balancing team than pvp though. People will exploit anything they can get away with.
Like back in Ultima days, where people would offer a trade and then once the sucker dropped the loot, he would be ganked and then lose out on the trade. It wasn't that pvp was bad, just shitty balancing and people taking advantage of the shitty game mechanics.
But Gears of War doesn't have that issue because the pvp is balanced differently.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
There's always a balance between one shots and shooting a level 1 Avenger for a minute straight.
Shield gate is kinda already in place to help with that. Just make it so that shotguns can't completely disregard the shield gate.
Rezzing players in pvp would also add a new strategic dynamic. Does the team risk rezzing their guy and getting shot up in the process? Or does the opposing team keep a guy to watch for the dead dude using medi-gel and rezzing themselves or an infiltrator sneaking in.
Charge, melee during stagger, unload Claymore. Get kill.
If that doesn't get a kill then the game no longer feels satisfyingly lethal like ME combat and if it does get a kill then it'd be fucking obnoxious to combat.
Or
Cloak, Energy drain, Widow headshot.
Reave into Warp
Mother fucking Dark channel
So much stuff.
Like I said, I'm not arguing that you can't 'do' ME themed PVP, just that you wouldn't get it feeling like mass effect does and it'd basically be a different game in much more than a few minor mechanical and balance ways like the difference between single and co-op play in ME3.
I don't see how that's any different than cloak -> sniper headshot in Halo or using the energy sword or tossing a bunch of grenades in a room and then armor locking.
It's all a matter of balance and strategy.
People don't use claymores on vanguards now, because it messes up their cooldown time. If charge > claymore isn't enough to one shot someone -and it wouldn't be because of shield gate- then they'd be counter killed, because vanguards charge in to the middle of the arena and their cooldown is so high that they wouldn't be able to charge again.
Just like in WoW pvp if a warrior charges into the middle away from his team and tries to one shot someone while they are stunned. If he doesn't? He dies.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Eh, while I liked PVP in the old WoW, and enjoyed the early battleground days, I had absolutely no interest in the arena and subsequent culture that developed afterward. I haven't played in years, so maybe it changed, but I doubt it has developed beyond the game now being "raiding vs players" or "raiding in dungeons". Just saying. Of course back then servers were more like communities with all the drama and fun that entails and yadda-yadda the times have long a changed.
That said, the very powers and things that you like so much in this game, applied to a PVP environment, would have to be so heavily modified in order to make for a balanced multiplayer experience that they would not feel like a Mass Effect game anymore.
A very good example of this would be the multiplayer in Bioshock 2. That's not to say that I thought that the MP there was horrible (it was fun if you got into a match that wasn't a lagfest), but the same plasmids and stuff really paled in comparison to their singleplayer counterparts. Some of them were also not fun to have spammed on you. Mass Effect's powers are built around crowd control... and there's a hell of more of it in ME than in BS.
What is/was one of the biggest complaint about WoW PvP? Crowd Control abilities. In fact there's a mess of different types of CC that the game has now to somehow straddle the line between keeping defending players from being CC'd to death while still allowing players whose classes depend on CC to still be able to do that. Not to mention trinkets, etc, etc.
What is the biggest feature of Mass Effect 3 Powers? Crowd Control.
Furthermore, there's the matter of dots and priming. Currently the only ways to remove a dot from yourself is to a) die, b) use an ops pack, c) be a class that can boost shields. Even if it was team based MP, that's one dude whose entire cooldown cycle would potentially be spent removing dots and resetting primes.
What about an ability to do that yourself, you ask? ME3 uses a universal cooldown. Such an ability power would have to be short enough to allow for players to have a chance to negate a power, yet long enough to actually allow an attacking player to actually use his or his teammate's priming effect to do something.
At its best, it'd be a one sided slaughter. At worst, a turtle fest of people shooting each other and refreshing their one universal power to keep themselves from being killed by an explosion and/or helpless. It's just not something I can see working without changing the game at its core.
WoW pvp has changed up quite a bit the past few years. CC's were reduced down to 8 seconds and there are now more abilities that share diminishing returns than ever. The focus has been turned from arena to rated battlegrounds and more and more abilities are being seperatly tuned to have different effects based on a boss, normal mob, and a player. They also added a new pvp stat called pvp power, which effects damage and healing done.
There are still issues, but much better than it was years ago.
But anyhow, ME3. I figured CC between players would be just like it is now, a simple stagger. But add in an internal cooldown to how often you can be staggered. A vanguard charges you? You get staggered and cannot get staggered again for five seconds.
Biotics and powers like concussive shot really are not much different than grenades in other games, except that they follow track the player. On the other hand, they can also be dodged. Hit scan powers have always been weaker, plus cannot go around cover. It would even add a new strategy; instead of detonating a biotic/tech combo immediatly, you'd want to wait till they can be staggered again.
The shields/dot thing can be tweaked so that powers like incenerate or warp either tick down faster, like over two seconds, or do all their damage at once, but still leave them debuffed and primed for a detonation for, let's say five seconds.
Change stasis to a cryo blast type debuff where it hitscans you and you walk X% slower to get out of it. Singularity will stagger a person it hits, like the other powers, but will remain for X seconds and anyone who runs into it will also be staggered.
Balancing MP for pvp wouldn't require changing the mechanics too much and it wouldn't have to effect the horde mode.
Unless they changed the way the DR worked it's probably still possible to lock a player out of being able to play for a good 20-30 seconds. Fear, MC, Root, Horror, Silence or Disarm so they can't fight back, repeat. But back to the topic...
Really at this point I'm specifically addressing just this hypothetical PVP mode in ME, and the crux of everything I've said is that PVP in Mass Effect would likely have to be altered so much that it'd be a fundamentally different experience from what Mass Effect is. Your suggestion that instead of levitating/freezing or throwing a player across the map that all powers should just stagger or slow is pretty much making fundamental changes to the powers to the extent that it would be Mass Effect in name only.
Waiting out an internal cooldown on your opponent? Not Mass Effect... or if anything that's pretty much every fight featuring a Phantom/Praetorian/Banshee power stopper with no cooldown and a 100% trigger rate. Un-fun.
But let's look at the Vanguard and how that'd work. Currently the average player character has about 800 shields. A human Vanguard charge would more or less knock off a defender. They follow it up with a Nova or two, player is dead. A krogan pops the shield and heavy melee's and the player is dead. The stagger factor there is more or less irrelevant. So, they significantly reduce the damage to make it so Vanguards can't do that, or inflate the base player shields and HP to make them be able to withstand that. Since you're suggesting that a vanguard can't stagger for a five second window, then no player would charge someone unless they could top-end enough damage to kill the person outright (as in, within those 5 seconds)... so peep and shoot peep and shoot. Vanguards aren't really the hide in cover first type.
Alternate scenario: another player has already staggered the target and triggered this window. The vanguard charges and it fails to stagger. The defending player gets a significant advantage over his opponent (roll out of nova range), and will very likely be able to kill the vanguard. Why? Because his own teammate "helped" him. Either way the flow of the game is still bizzarro ME.
IDK though, I get that you really want to play a PVP Mass Effect but it's just not an idea I can get behind. I'm content to leave it at that.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Naw, cloak is a power you start with now. They added that feature of powers back in Halo: Reach. You choose your starting power. It's all balanced pretty well.
Armor lock lets you live a bit longer and discharge players shields if they are too close or you can one-shot vehicles if they try to splatter you now.
Jetpacks. Rolling. Cloak. ect, it's all part of the starting powers.
Edit: I'd play Halo more often if it was on the PC and there was a better community. The combat is really good with the powers and vehicles and weapons, but it's hard to make friends on Live for me.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I don't play Halo though :P And when my friends and I messed around with couch play back in Halo 2, we generally had fun with Juggernaut mode and no Plasma pistols.
I guess that's neat. Though ED+BW would still be either not as fun to use because it doesn't gib dudes any more or it'd be annoying to fight because lol suddenly dead.
I agree I'd like more power based MP shooters. I dig them a lot (which is why I'm so sad Warframes kinda meh) but I just struggle to think of ME3 multiplayer working without so much of a shift that it's not like ME any more.
Unless they changed the way the DR worked it's probably still possible to lock a player out of being able to play for a good 20-30 seconds. Fear, MC, Root, Horror, Silence or Disarm so they can't fight back, repeat. But back to the topic...
Really at this point I'm specifically addressing just this hypothetical PVP mode in ME, and the crux of everything I've said is that PVP in Mass Effect would likely have to be altered so much that it'd be a fundamentally different experience from what Mass Effect is. Your suggestion that instead of levitating/freezing or throwing a player across the map that all powers should just stagger or slow is pretty much making fundamental changes to the powers to the extent that it would be Mass Effect in name only.
Waiting out an internal cooldown on your opponent? Not Mass Effect... or if anything that's pretty much every fight featuring a Phantom/Praetorian/Banshee power stopper with no cooldown and a 100% trigger rate. Un-fun.
But let's look at the Vanguard and how that'd work. Currently the average player character has about 800 shields. A human Vanguard charge would more or less knock off a defender. They follow it up with a Nova or two, player is dead. A krogan pops the shield and heavy melee's and the player is dead. The stagger factor there is more or less irrelevant. So, they significantly reduce the damage to make it so Vanguards can't do that, or inflate the base player shields and HP to make them be able to withstand that. Since you're suggesting that a vanguard can't stagger for a five second window, then no player would charge someone unless they could top-end enough damage to kill the person outright (as in, within those 5 seconds)... so peep and shoot peep and shoot. Vanguards aren't really the hide in cover first type.
Alternate scenario: another player has already staggered the target and triggered this window. The vanguard charges and it fails to stagger. The defending player gets a significant advantage over his opponent (roll out of nova range), and will very likely be able to kill the vanguard. Why? Because his own teammate "helped" him. Either way the flow of the game is still bizzarro ME.
IDK though, I get that you really want to play a PVP Mass Effect but it's just not an idea I can get behind. I'm content to leave it at that.
Yeah, but you are thinking in terms of player vs NPC. A vanguard can charge immediatly because NPC's run out into the open. But what does a person do when they start a match in ME MP and pretty much any game, including WoW? They take cover and assess the situation. The vanguard won't be able to just charge and oneshot, because he won't have a target to charge. The opponents will be abusing the third person camera to assess the other team, just like other games. Once they see a vanguard, they would want him to charge, because he'd be on their side and the other three guys can counter stagger him and concentrate fire.
Also, charge is more than a damage and stagger tool for players. It's also an escape and a shield recharge tool. So a smart vanguard would get close to the opponent by acting like a mortal and walking, then use charge to set up an oppertunity stagger or get their shields back.
Shield numbers a character has and how much damage a nova or claymore or widow or dark channel does is all a matter of simple number balancing.
Hitscan powers cannot go around cover. Powers that travel can, but can also be dodged. Classes with no dodge have more shields. A lot of the balance is already in the game.
Vanguards are still high risk/reward in the horde mode, but it takes a degree of skill to be played well on gold or above. How often do we see a poor player survive as a novaguard on gold?
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
The thing is I've seen the pvp mindset get carried into PVE, I've been there and watched it happen. I'm thinking specifically of SWTOR and how they added a new area with a cordened off section of PVP... and the pvp people took the "versus" mindset directly into the pve area and started fucking with people trying to down bosses. Yeah there's always been some of that in the game (usually it's the opposing faction either attacking the boss before you can get your team ready, or attacking your raid because one of your people is flagged.) But that area brought it to a whole new level, because the pvp wasn't just faction v faction, it was free for all. So when a republic asshole wanted to stop his fellow republic faction from taking a boss down, he'd taunt it away and make it reset.
Yes, the asshole is universal and there are always going to be those people in the game. But PVP breeds and multiplies a special kind of asshole, and I'd like to keep that out of Mass Effect. Because even the worst pug I've ever dealt with in ME MP wasn't as bad as the "Fuck with everybody, all the time" assholes I've met as a result of pvp.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I quit TOR, the pvp scene was awful. I blame that more on the balancing team than pvp though. People will exploit anything they can get away with.
Like back in Ultima days, where people would offer a trade and then once the sucker dropped the loot, he would be ganked and then lose out on the trade. It wasn't that pvp was bad, just shitty balancing and people taking advantage of the shitty game mechanics.
But Gears of War doesn't have that issue because the pvp is balanced differently.
But my story wasn't about getting angry at the balance of PVP in warzones or designated pvp areas. It's about people doing nothing at all pvp related, but taking the "Versus" aspect to it's logical conclusion and just fucking around with people because you can. Another guardian taunting off of my guardian is not an issue of balance.
I have enjoyed PVP before, but I agree with Jeep 100%. Having PVP in your game invites the "how can I fuck with other players" element into the game, and those people are not going to just stay in the PVP area and be content.
One of the games I played last week while grinding out waves was on Bronze-Reactor-Hazard. (Yes, it was Bronze, but I was sick at the time and didn't want to deal with anything remotely a challenge.) I wandered into the reactor early on, and the doors shut on me and killed me. Fine, whatever. Mash space, some one ressed me. A few waves later, it happened again. Ugh, didn't whomever see that there were no mobs in the reactor at the time? Whatever. Mash space, someone picked me up.
Wave nine, it happened again. And this time, the guy hitting the button goes "Fuckin' owned again, noob."
I let myself bleed out without hitting space.
Without me, the team wiped on that wave. The guy who killed me dropped a "Fucking scrubs" and left.
After that, I mostly kept to Silver for the rest of the grind.
For the record? I always push the button on Reactor Hazard. Always. I will go out of my way, running past enemies with every intention of popping a medigel if that's what it takes, to push the button.
If there is a button? I. Will. Push. The. Button.
(I will also make every attempt to revive you if you happen to get caught inside. I will also probably be laughing when I do it)
The thing is I've seen the pvp mindset get carried into PVE, I've been there and watched it happen. I'm thinking specifically of SWTOR and how they added a new area with a cordened off section of PVP... and the pvp people took the "versus" mindset directly into the pve area and started fucking with people trying to down bosses. Yeah there's always been some of that in the game (usually it's the opposing faction either attacking the boss before you can get your team ready, or attacking your raid because one of your people is flagged.) But that area brought it to a whole new level, because the pvp wasn't just faction v faction, it was free for all. So when a republic asshole wanted to stop his fellow republic faction from taking a boss down, he'd taunt it away and make it reset.
Yes, the asshole is universal and there are always going to be those people in the game. But PVP breeds and multiplies a special kind of asshole, and I'd like to keep that out of Mass Effect. Because even the worst pug I've ever dealt with in ME MP wasn't as bad as the "Fuck with everybody, all the time" assholes I've met as a result of pvp.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I quit TOR, the pvp scene was awful. I blame that more on the balancing team than pvp though. People will exploit anything they can get away with.
Like back in Ultima days, where people would offer a trade and then once the sucker dropped the loot, he would be ganked and then lose out on the trade. It wasn't that pvp was bad, just shitty balancing and people taking advantage of the shitty game mechanics.
But Gears of War doesn't have that issue because the pvp is balanced differently.
But my story wasn't about getting angry at the balance of PVP in warzones or designated pvp areas. It's about people doing nothing at all pvp related, but taking the "Versus" aspect to it's logical conclusion and just fucking around with people because you can. Another guardian taunting off of my guardian is not an issue of balance.
Balance in the meaning of making the game mechanics of not being allowed to exploit and grief other players.
Gonna bring up WoW again, (and I guess Rift and Guild Wars 2). It used to have open world bosses as well, people would do this same thing and nobody liked it because guilds on the same faction would try to set up ways to sabatoge a competing guild. When Rift was released, and Guild Wars 2, they made it so that everyone in the zone or attacking the world boss would automatically be joined in the same group.
WoW recently adopted this mechanic when bringing back world bosses. Instead of people griefing each other to get the mad lootz, the whole of the Alliance (or the Horde, they still compete against each other) will all get loot if thet take part in the fight. Blizzard changed their game mechanics to not allow people to grief each other.
This is actually a great way to make the game better in all three cases, because the community as a whole has less of a reason to be jerks and more of a reason to be helpful.
Not that there isn't ways to exploit still, like nature, assholes will find a way. But a good developer will take measures to keep their community healthy instead of toxic.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
3DS friend code: 4811-7214-5053
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
In a general way: You're not really missing much if you skip side missions, but you have to do a large percentage of them to get to 50, I think (or you can just do NG+ and get to 50 much easier).
There is a payoff joke in ME3 for ME1 completionists, though. But you can always youtube that.
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
If you plan on carrying the same Shepard through all three games I recommended doing all the side quests. It will create some additional content/dialog in future games. Or if your Shep 'ain't got time for dat', just go for it. There is no real wrong way to play Commander Shepard.
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Fondor_YardsElite Four Member: HydraRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
There's something refreshing about being able to pop into a gold game as the original asari adept and outscoring all the new 'over powered' classes.
I am approaching serviceable in Gold. I still get 1 hit boss killed sometimes, cause I don't know the proper timing to biotic charge bosses but I am getting there.
I still score last or second to last. I don't think my weapons do me any favors but I can also use that as an excuse for my suckiness.
If you don't know, enemies must melee first before they can sync kill you*or for Brutes roar/have glowly eyes*. Once you know that, you really shouldn't be synced much other then by ninja phantoms/praetorians and the below case. This makes Atlases actually pretty easy to tank as a vanguard. Charge and nova, roll back till it starts shooting, then repeat. Unless it does that bullshit where the missile/cannon shot follows you and hits after the charge, so you don't get your shields back.
Of course there's an exception to this rule is, Banshees. Which is why like 90% of sync kill deaths are from Banshees, any time you get within 5-10ft of one you're rolling the dice on an intestinal skis-kabob.
Fondor_Yards on
Secrets, lies, and tragedy. The trifecta.
3DS Code: 5043-2172-1361
Xbone Tag: Salal al Din
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
Don't stress over it. It doesn't really unlock anything. It just gives you, like, one extra level in ME2. Maybe two levels, I forget.
You're not missing out on any story element or weapon if you go in at level 49.
Things you do want though are all the Matriarch writings and store liscenses.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
+2
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
If you plan on carrying the same Shepard through all three games I recommended doing all the side quests. It will create some additional content/dialog in future games. Or if your Shep 'ain't got time for dat', just go for it. There is no real wrong way to play Commander Shepard.
Yeah I realized it's not just that one payoff, there are several side missions where you see the people in later games. It just depends on whether that appeals to you or not, because it's not like you (generally) get whole new missions surrounding these people, you just get to see them again and maybe chat, and at most they ask you to talk to someone else to help them out.
I do think there's one wrong way to play Shepard, and that is to not complete the Conrad Vernor quest with either a renegade or paragon conversation choice. If Conrad Vernor doesn't appear in every one of your Mass Effect games, you are a Mass Effect criminal.
How important is it that I complete a lot of side quests in ME1? I heard that ideally I want to get my Shepard to level 50 to unlock things in ME2 but I'm at level 40 now and just really sick of repeating the same tasks over and over. Am I missing out on much if I just go straight into the virmire missions now?
If you plan on carrying the same Shepard through all three games I recommended doing all the side quests. It will create some additional content/dialog in future games. Or if your Shep 'ain't got time for dat', just go for it. There is no real wrong way to play Commander Shepard.
Yeah I realized it's not just that one payoff, there are several side missions where you see the people in later games. It just depends on whether that appeals to you or not, because it's not like you (generally) get whole new missions surrounding these people, you just get to see them again and maybe chat, and at most they ask you to talk to someone else to help them out.
I do think there's one wrong way to play Shepard, and that is to not complete the Conrad Vernor quest with either a renegade or paragon conversation choice. If Conrad Vernor doesn't appear in every one of your Mass Effect games, you are a Mass Effect criminal.
Ha! Agreed. Lets make sure that gets into the bylaws.
Posts
No I haven't, man, and I'm on LIVE. That's like, the spawning pool for those people! This is literally the only online MP shooter I will play with strangers, because it's got almost no assholes!
If you add PVP, the "l33t peeveepeeers" will show up, and they will ruin everything they touch.
Naw, you'd never have to worry about that. If all I cared about was killing peoples, I would never have stuck with the ME multiplayer.
What I like more than killing people is the community. I can go into WoW or any other online game and kill dudes at will. But I don't unless I'm part of a group of people I know. Killing people online isn't what makes it fun. Killing people with friends is what makes it fun.
That's why I do horde mode on Halo and still sometimes raid in WoW. The only reason I don't do it hardcore anymore is work and kids.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Maybe they aren't inherently, but it sure as hell is easier to be a jackass in PvP than in PvE.
I mean, you really have to go out of your way to be a dick in ME3 Multiplayer, like the example Shadowhope gave - and even then, doing stuff like that hurts yourself as well because your team is less likely to finish the wave.
Eh, while I liked PVP in the old WoW, and enjoyed the early battleground days, I had absolutely no interest in the arena and subsequent culture that developed afterward. I haven't played in years, so maybe it changed, but I doubt it has developed beyond the game now being "raiding vs players" or "raiding in dungeons". Just saying. Of course back then servers were more like communities with all the drama and fun that entails and yadda-yadda the times have long a changed.
That said, the very powers and things that you like so much in this game, applied to a PVP environment, would have to be so heavily modified in order to make for a balanced multiplayer experience that they would not feel like a Mass Effect game anymore.
A very good example of this would be the multiplayer in Bioshock 2. That's not to say that I thought that the MP there was horrible (it was fun if you got into a match that wasn't a lagfest), but the same plasmids and stuff really paled in comparison to their singleplayer counterparts. Some of them were also not fun to have spammed on you. Mass Effect's powers are built around crowd control... and there's a hell of more of it in ME than in BS.
What is/was one of the biggest complaint about WoW PvP? Crowd Control abilities. In fact there's a mess of different types of CC that the game has now to somehow straddle the line between keeping defending players from being CC'd to death while still allowing players whose classes depend on CC to still be able to do that. Not to mention trinkets, etc, etc.
What is the biggest feature of Mass Effect 3 Powers? Crowd Control.
Furthermore, there's the matter of dots and priming. Currently the only ways to remove a dot from yourself is to a) die, b) use an ops pack, c) be a class that can boost shields. Even if it was team based MP, that's one dude whose entire cooldown cycle would potentially be spent removing dots and resetting primes.
What about an ability to do that yourself, you ask? ME3 uses a universal cooldown. Such an ability power would have to be short enough to allow for players to have a chance to negate a power, yet long enough to actually allow an attacking player to actually use his or his teammate's priming effect to do something.
At its best, it'd be a one sided slaughter. At worst, a turtle fest of people shooting each other and refreshing their one universal power to keep themselves from being killed by an explosion and/or helpless. It's just not something I can see working without changing the game at its core.
You're very lucky.
People will grief everywhere. Assholes who host and disconnect in the final wave so you have to start the wave over again. Jerks who invite a fourth person, just to yell bullshit and kick them. People who just kinda move enough to not AFK out, but don't play, so they can get "free" credits. People who exploit by missle glitching or abusing the terrain.
Assholes and pvp are not mutually inclusive.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I still score last or second to last. I don't think my weapons do me any favors but I can also use that as an excuse for my suckiness.
Origin: Broncbuster
Actually, it's worse than that.
It's an entire team of GI in Hunter mode with Javelins doing that THROUGH WALLS.
Edit: And I'm not saying "PVP is assholes", I'm saying "the kind of people who are primarily attracted to PVP games include a larger percentage of asshole than otherwise present in PVE populations". Look at ANY primarily PVP content. LoL, WoW arena, RTS... I don't want to play with those people. I don't care if they want to play with me or not. They can have their entire genres, just don't get any in mine.
True. You basically can get up and quickly grab a drink/tasty adult beverage. That is about it.
My guess is they're rubberbanding.
WoW pvp has changed up quite a bit the past few years. CC's were reduced down to 8 seconds and there are now more abilities that share diminishing returns than ever. The focus has been turned from arena to rated battlegrounds and more and more abilities are being seperatly tuned to have different effects based on a boss, normal mob, and a player. They also added a new pvp stat called pvp power, which effects damage and healing done.
There are still issues, but much better than it was years ago.
But anyhow, ME3. I figured CC between players would be just like it is now, a simple stagger. But add in an internal cooldown to how often you can be staggered. A vanguard charges you? You get staggered and cannot get staggered again for five seconds.
Biotics and powers like concussive shot really are not much different than grenades in other games, except that they follow track the player. On the other hand, they can also be dodged. Hit scan powers have always been weaker, plus cannot go around cover. It would even add a new strategy; instead of detonating a biotic/tech combo immediatly, you'd want to wait till they can be staggered again.
The shields/dot thing can be tweaked so that powers like incenerate or warp either tick down faster, like over two seconds, or do all their damage at once, but still leave them debuffed and primed for a detonation for, let's say five seconds.
Change stasis to a cryo blast type debuff where it hitscans you and you walk X% slower to get out of it. Singularity will stagger a person it hits, like the other powers, but will remain for X seconds and anyone who runs into it will also be staggered.
Balancing MP for pvp wouldn't require changing the mechanics too much and it wouldn't have to effect the horde mode.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Which is what everyones being saying. Yes you could have ME PVP, but by the time you made something fun out of it it wouldn't be ME PVP. It'd just be PVP that happened to be themed the same as ME.
Yes, the asshole is universal and there are always going to be those people in the game. But PVP breeds and multiplies a special kind of asshole, and I'd like to keep that out of Mass Effect. Because even the worst pug I've ever dealt with in ME MP wasn't as bad as the "Fuck with everybody, all the time" assholes I've met as a result of pvp.
Shield gate is kinda already in place to help with that. Just make it so that shotguns can't completely disregard the shield gate.
Rezzing players in pvp would also add a new strategic dynamic. Does the team risk rezzing their guy and getting shot up in the process? Or does the opposing team keep a guy to watch for the dead dude using medi-gel and rezzing themselves or an infiltrator sneaking in.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Charge, melee during stagger, unload Claymore. Get kill.
If that doesn't get a kill then the game no longer feels satisfyingly lethal like ME combat and if it does get a kill then it'd be fucking obnoxious to combat.
Or
Cloak, Energy drain, Widow headshot.
Reave into Warp
Mother fucking Dark channel
So much stuff.
Like I said, I'm not arguing that you can't 'do' ME themed PVP, just that you wouldn't get it feeling like mass effect does and it'd basically be a different game in much more than a few minor mechanical and balance ways like the difference between single and co-op play in ME3.
Granted you get people that ignore objectives, but that is generally a coin toss between them being newbs or people using "advanced" tactics. Thankfully one person almost can't ruin a match.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I quit TOR, the pvp scene was awful. I blame that more on the balancing team than pvp though. People will exploit anything they can get away with.
Like back in Ultima days, where people would offer a trade and then once the sucker dropped the loot, he would be ganked and then lose out on the trade. It wasn't that pvp was bad, just shitty balancing and people taking advantage of the shitty game mechanics.
But Gears of War doesn't have that issue because the pvp is balanced differently.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I don't see how that's any different than cloak -> sniper headshot in Halo or using the energy sword or tossing a bunch of grenades in a room and then armor locking.
It's all a matter of balance and strategy.
People don't use claymores on vanguards now, because it messes up their cooldown time. If charge > claymore isn't enough to one shot someone -and it wouldn't be because of shield gate- then they'd be counter killed, because vanguards charge in to the middle of the arena and their cooldown is so high that they wouldn't be able to charge again.
Just like in WoW pvp if a warrior charges into the middle away from his team and tries to one shot someone while they are stunned. If he doesn't? He dies.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
In Mass Effect you spawn with cloak and a sniper.
Unless they changed the way the DR worked it's probably still possible to lock a player out of being able to play for a good 20-30 seconds. Fear, MC, Root, Horror, Silence or Disarm so they can't fight back, repeat. But back to the topic...
Really at this point I'm specifically addressing just this hypothetical PVP mode in ME, and the crux of everything I've said is that PVP in Mass Effect would likely have to be altered so much that it'd be a fundamentally different experience from what Mass Effect is. Your suggestion that instead of levitating/freezing or throwing a player across the map that all powers should just stagger or slow is pretty much making fundamental changes to the powers to the extent that it would be Mass Effect in name only.
Waiting out an internal cooldown on your opponent? Not Mass Effect... or if anything that's pretty much every fight featuring a Phantom/Praetorian/Banshee power stopper with no cooldown and a 100% trigger rate. Un-fun.
But let's look at the Vanguard and how that'd work. Currently the average player character has about 800 shields. A human Vanguard charge would more or less knock off a defender. They follow it up with a Nova or two, player is dead. A krogan pops the shield and heavy melee's and the player is dead. The stagger factor there is more or less irrelevant. So, they significantly reduce the damage to make it so Vanguards can't do that, or inflate the base player shields and HP to make them be able to withstand that. Since you're suggesting that a vanguard can't stagger for a five second window, then no player would charge someone unless they could top-end enough damage to kill the person outright (as in, within those 5 seconds)... so peep and shoot peep and shoot. Vanguards aren't really the hide in cover first type.
Alternate scenario: another player has already staggered the target and triggered this window. The vanguard charges and it fails to stagger. The defending player gets a significant advantage over his opponent (roll out of nova range), and will very likely be able to kill the vanguard. Why? Because his own teammate "helped" him. Either way the flow of the game is still bizzarro ME.
IDK though, I get that you really want to play a PVP Mass Effect but it's just not an idea I can get behind. I'm content to leave it at that.
Armor lock lets you live a bit longer and discharge players shields if they are too close or you can one-shot vehicles if they try to splatter you now.
Jetpacks. Rolling. Cloak. ect, it's all part of the starting powers.
Edit: I'd play Halo more often if it was on the PC and there was a better community. The combat is really good with the powers and vehicles and weapons, but it's hard to make friends on Live for me.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I agree I'd like more power based MP shooters. I dig them a lot (which is why I'm so sad Warframes kinda meh) but I just struggle to think of ME3 multiplayer working without so much of a shift that it's not like ME any more.
Yeah, but you are thinking in terms of player vs NPC. A vanguard can charge immediatly because NPC's run out into the open. But what does a person do when they start a match in ME MP and pretty much any game, including WoW? They take cover and assess the situation. The vanguard won't be able to just charge and oneshot, because he won't have a target to charge. The opponents will be abusing the third person camera to assess the other team, just like other games. Once they see a vanguard, they would want him to charge, because he'd be on their side and the other three guys can counter stagger him and concentrate fire.
Also, charge is more than a damage and stagger tool for players. It's also an escape and a shield recharge tool. So a smart vanguard would get close to the opponent by acting like a mortal and walking, then use charge to set up an oppertunity stagger or get their shields back.
Shield numbers a character has and how much damage a nova or claymore or widow or dark channel does is all a matter of simple number balancing.
Hitscan powers cannot go around cover. Powers that travel can, but can also be dodged. Classes with no dodge have more shields. A lot of the balance is already in the game.
Vanguards are still high risk/reward in the horde mode, but it takes a degree of skill to be played well on gold or above. How often do we see a poor player survive as a novaguard on gold?
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
But my story wasn't about getting angry at the balance of PVP in warzones or designated pvp areas. It's about people doing nothing at all pvp related, but taking the "Versus" aspect to it's logical conclusion and just fucking around with people because you can. Another guardian taunting off of my guardian is not an issue of balance.
For the record? I always push the button on Reactor Hazard. Always. I will go out of my way, running past enemies with every intention of popping a medigel if that's what it takes, to push the button.
If there is a button? I. Will. Push. The. Button.
(I will also make every attempt to revive you if you happen to get caught inside. I will also probably be laughing when I do it)
Balance in the meaning of making the game mechanics of not being allowed to exploit and grief other players.
Gonna bring up WoW again, (and I guess Rift and Guild Wars 2). It used to have open world bosses as well, people would do this same thing and nobody liked it because guilds on the same faction would try to set up ways to sabatoge a competing guild. When Rift was released, and Guild Wars 2, they made it so that everyone in the zone or attacking the world boss would automatically be joined in the same group.
WoW recently adopted this mechanic when bringing back world bosses. Instead of people griefing each other to get the mad lootz, the whole of the Alliance (or the Horde, they still compete against each other) will all get loot if thet take part in the fight. Blizzard changed their game mechanics to not allow people to grief each other.
This is actually a great way to make the game better in all three cases, because the community as a whole has less of a reason to be jerks and more of a reason to be helpful.
Not that there isn't ways to exploit still, like nature, assholes will find a way. But a good developer will take measures to keep their community healthy instead of toxic.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
If I want PVP I have a plenty of games available
I mean, I don't own them or anything because fuck PVP
But they're out there if I ever decide I do want to deal with that proverbial nail through my dick of a playerbase again
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In a general way: You're not really missing much if you skip side missions, but you have to do a large percentage of them to get to 50, I think (or you can just do NG+ and get to 50 much easier).
There is a payoff joke in ME3 for ME1 completionists, though. But you can always youtube that.
If you plan on carrying the same Shepard through all three games I recommended doing all the side quests. It will create some additional content/dialog in future games. Or if your Shep 'ain't got time for dat', just go for it. There is no real wrong way to play Commander Shepard.
If you don't know, enemies must melee first before they can sync kill you*or for Brutes roar/have glowly eyes*. Once you know that, you really shouldn't be synced much other then by ninja phantoms/praetorians and the below case. This makes Atlases actually pretty easy to tank as a vanguard. Charge and nova, roll back till it starts shooting, then repeat. Unless it does that bullshit where the missile/cannon shot follows you and hits after the charge, so you don't get your shields back.
Of course there's an exception to this rule is, Banshees. Which is why like 90% of sync kill deaths are from Banshees, any time you get within 5-10ft of one you're rolling the dice on an intestinal skis-kabob.
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There's a few minor things but it's not critical
Don't stress over it. It doesn't really unlock anything. It just gives you, like, one extra level in ME2. Maybe two levels, I forget.
You're not missing out on any story element or weapon if you go in at level 49.
Things you do want though are all the Matriarch writings and store liscenses.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yeah I realized it's not just that one payoff, there are several side missions where you see the people in later games. It just depends on whether that appeals to you or not, because it's not like you (generally) get whole new missions surrounding these people, you just get to see them again and maybe chat, and at most they ask you to talk to someone else to help them out.
I do think there's one wrong way to play Shepard, and that is to not complete the Conrad Vernor quest with either a renegade or paragon conversation choice. If Conrad Vernor doesn't appear in every one of your Mass Effect games, you are a Mass Effect criminal.
Ha! Agreed. Lets make sure that gets into the bylaws.