Wildstar could be an absolute train-wreck of a game, but the fact that these guys are saying it's going to be good enough to justify $15/month has my attention, especially in a market that's demanding F2P and B2P business models.
That takes enormous balls. Whether or not there's more balls than brains behind Wildstar, only time will tell.
I'll approach with caution. I don't mind paying subscription fees. But a lot of people in this thread are treating it as if the content updates to the game will be more regular or of higher quality because of the subscription fee. Past experience in the MMO genre has taught me that this is not even close to the case. Like at all.
yeah I don't really get the reasoning. if companies make less money with a subscription model how are they going to put out content faster?
even with a subscription wow still has a cash shop. it feels to me like that game is just milking the die hards for more and more money to cover their falling subscription numbers
Jars on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
yeah I don't really get the reasoning. if companies make less money with a subscription model how are they going to put out content faster?
I guess the idea is that since the sub is a steady source of income, they can pay their employees a steady salary instead of the F2P/cash shop model of some months paying them nothing and some months paying them a trillion dollars after a particularly popular princess dress launches in the shop, which in turn results in a more steady workflow from the employees and thus they can guarantee a steady amount of content.
I guess the idea is that since the sub is a steady source of income, they can pay their employees a steady salary instead of the F2P/cash shop model of some months paying them nothing and some months paying them a trillion dollars after a particularly popular princess dress launches in the shop
This is how a 7 person indie startup making Android games pays its employees, not a large studio and publisher making an MMORPG on an 8 figure budget.
So, not even remotely applicable to Carbine and Wildstar.
WoW has a cash shop because Acti-Blizzard wants money more than they want good PR, and has a fan base willing to give it to them.
WoW sells expansions for $60 (only MoP was $40) almost a full year after their final content patches from previous expansions, meaning all the sub money from the last patch to the next expansion basically went into a black hole from a consumer standpoint. They are also effectively day-1 purchases for the entire existing user base. For comparison: EVE Online does not charge for their expansions, even though they easily could because it only looks greedy.
Regardless of what Blizzard likes to tell people, almost no one who bought and sold WoW accounts was ever banned since they paid for subscriptions. Hacked accounts also never had gametime removed from them knowing full well they were paid for with stolen credit or 60-day sub cards. I know the guy who ran a major account selling site (tgs.net) and at least 20 people who have sold their accounts that were never banned, even with extremely unique gear and achievements like Atiesh, Black AQ bug mounts, and a smearing of server first titles, all of which are advertised to sell the accounts.
Wildstar seems to have realised the point of having cash shops in games is basically to show off your wealth. They could extremely easily implement a cash shop for stuff to put in your house with very little backlash, but then the majority of the incentive to buy them (see: to show them off) is lacking and would make the housing experience shallower for people that don't want to pay up.
Using the PLEX system from EVE is also fucking genius because it heavily mitigates the RMT market. Anyone who wants to buy gold in games will take the path of least resistance which is entirely controlled by Carbine, and people who want to sell their gold for real money will have to undercut the CREDD market which will establish the value.
The announcement of their pricing structure actually has me more excited to try Wildstar than when it was potentially another adventure into the shitstorm of F2P. Now the game has to live up the hype, which is the hard part.
No one's going to like me saying this, but maybe they fully expect to transition to F2P at some point in the future? They must be aware of all your criticisms of their subscription model already, and they obviously know of all the games that have moved to F2P. Maybe this is just a calculated risk in order for them to recoup development costs as fast as possible, and/or they just want to test the waters and see if they can sustain a subscription based game with their current overhead. They obviously can't move to a subscription later, even if there's an adequate demand for Wildstar at the onset.
Whatever their motivations are, I bet they've got a long term plan. Carbine seems to have an excellent understanding of MMOs (well, from the game mechanics side at least), so I'll uncharacteristically give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
I'm fine with either model and will play the game regardless if I like the what I see in the beta. Though I certainly prefer a subscription model without the cash shop because I will without fail spend more in a game's cash shop than on a subscription.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I guess the idea is that since the sub is a steady source of income, they can pay their employees a steady salary instead of the F2P/cash shop model of some months paying them nothing and some months paying them a trillion dollars after a particularly popular princess dress launches in the shop
This is how a 7 person indie startup making Android games pays its employees, not a large studio and publisher making an MMORPG on an 8 figure budget.
So, not even remotely applicable to Carbine and Wildstar.
Oh I see.
With a sub, they can afford to buy big pots of honey. Then they leave those open next to the coding stations and a giant swarm of fucking bees comes in and they start hitting the keys on the keyboard and boooooom new content!
With a free to play model, they can't afford to buy big pots of honey as often, so sometimes they smear peanut butter on the keyboards and let Spot and Dookie lick the keyboards, resulting in a slower content generation rate.
I guess the idea is that since the sub is a steady source of income, they can pay their employees a steady salary instead of the F2P/cash shop model of some months paying them nothing and some months paying them a trillion dollars after a particularly popular princess dress launches in the shop
This is how a 7 person indie startup making Android games pays its employees, not a large studio and publisher making an MMORPG on an 8 figure budget.
So, not even remotely applicable to Carbine and Wildstar.
Oh I see.
With a sub, they can afford to buy big pots of honey. Then they leave those open next to the coding stations and a giant swarm of fucking bees comes in and they start hitting the keys on the keyboard and boooooom new content!
With a free to play model, they can't afford to buy big pots of honey as often, so sometimes they smear peanut butter on the keyboards and let Spot and Dookie lick the keyboards, resulting in a slower content generation rate.
mojojoeoA block off the park, living the dream.Registered Userregular
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Now the sub/not sub thing. Which btw APB had- and if you are a savvy or lucky player you'll never end up actually paying but trading ion game cash for it. So it could turn out cool.
Whats so awesome about this?
Chief Wiggum: "Ladies, please. All our founding fathers, astronauts, and World Series heroes have been either drunk or on cocaine."
I guess I am part of the crowd that doesn't care what the subscription model is. I grew up with Monthly subs and I am about to monthly sub to FFXIV. I never had an issue with them.
I like the model PLEX style model. Does it mean I have to evaluate if I am getting my 15 dollars worth every month? Yah it does, but that's the case with just about everything I do. With the price of entertainment today its hard not to say 'Yah, $15 a month is worth it'. If I play for 3 Hours a day and I am enjoying myself its more then worth it to me. I mean going to see a movie with my wife costs $22 and rising, we also no longer get drinks. that is like 2-3 hours of entertainment for $22. If I am getting 2-3 hours of entertainment a day for $15 a month. That is worth it to me. However its totally subjective and honestly I haven't found a free to play model outside of 'League of legends' which allows me to play dress up with my favorite champions in the game. That actually got me to use it. In this case if I am enjoying the game enough and making the CREED I don't have to put any money into it.
There are pros and cons to sub vs F2P. Neither of which effect me either way. I'll play because its enjoyable and if there is a sub pay wall, I'll pay to get past it until I no longer enjoy it.
I mean if people don't want to pay every month and evaluate if their getting their moneys worth every month, then well that is their prerogative.
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Now the sub/not sub thing. Which btw APB had- and if you are a savvy or lucky player you'll never end up actually paying but trading ion game cash for it. So it could turn out cool.
Whats so awesome about this?
Death Robots and Space Hamsters.
Honestly though a lot of the love comes from; the art style, the combat system and the vision that they have for the game. The funny 'Dev Diary' videos are pretty good to.
The majority of us refuse to read reviews of anything. Mostly because video game review sites are cesspits of anti-journalism and game ratings make the world a worse place. So we watch the videos from carbine, read the patch notes and generally pay attention to whats coming out of their mouth, then take it with a pinch of salt. What we see we like. Until we get our hands on the game itself though we will continue to enjoy being video game voyeurs.
Miniwolf on
League Of Legends: Ulven
+2
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
WoW has a cash shop because Acti-Blizzard wants money more than they want good PR, and has a fan base willing to give it to them.
WoW sells expansions for $60 (only MoP was $40) almost a full year after their final content patches from previous expansions, meaning all the sub money from the last patch to the next expansion basically went into a black hole from a consumer standpoint. They are also effectively day-1 purchases for the entire existing user base. For comparison: EVE Online does not charge for their expansions, even though they easily could because it only looks greedy.
Regardless of what Blizzard likes to tell people, almost no one who bought and sold WoW accounts was ever banned since they paid for subscriptions. Hacked accounts also never had gametime removed from them knowing full well they were paid for with stolen credit or 60-day sub cards. I know the guy who ran a major account selling site (tgs.net) and at least 20 people who have sold their accounts that were never banned, even with extremely unique gear and achievements like Atiesh, Black AQ bug mounts, and a smearing of server first titles, all of which are advertised to sell the accounts.
Wildstar seems to have realised the point of having cash shops in games is basically to show off your wealth. They could extremely easily implement a cash shop for stuff to put in your house with very little backlash, but then the majority of the incentive to buy them (see: to show them off) is lacking and would make the housing experience shallower for people that don't want to pay up.
Using the PLEX system from EVE is also fucking genius because it heavily mitigates the RMT market. Anyone who wants to buy gold in games will take the path of least resistance which is entirely controlled by Carbine, and people who want to sell their gold for real money will have to undercut the CREDD market which will establish the value.
The announcement of their pricing structure actually has me more excited to try Wildstar than when it was potentially another adventure into the shitstorm of F2P. Now the game has to live up the hype, which is the hard part.
I'll keep my response to this flurry of information short and simple by pointing to the above in agreement and adding that as someone who is reasonably financially stable, loves MMOs and has grown to increasingly distrust and disregard F2P titles over the last few years, this announcement really makes me happy and reaffirms my faith that Wildstar will be the one for me long term.
Obviously all this must still be tested as Crip says when the hype train docks at the Nexus station and we actually have the reality of playing the game in our hands. But the way they are handling the business model looks at this moment, to me at least, like both a wise investment and a projection of confidence in their product, something I haven't seen in any F2P game besides GW2.
I've been playing SWTOR again lately, and if it wasn't for the constant in game credit support of @Cambiata and my own savings to unlock the unlocks inherent to that horrible F2P system, I'd have long ago given up on the fun moments I derive from that game and been left playing the same old or some new hotness or some new F2P thing that had it's own issues, like my recent experiences with World of Tanks. Even as it stands I've had to spend a bit of money to get back into SWTOR by switching my characters legacy over to a new server in order to get situated and have access to the renewed PA interest on Cam's server.
All that recent experience has made me all the more interested in having a simple subscription to pay each month and have, if not everything, then the core of the game and it's mechanics/conveniences intact and unmolested by nickel and diming. Sure, NCSoft probably will do a cash shop, most likely on a model of selling us pretty outfits and stuff for our floating houses. Honestly, I would like to have that convenience too even despite the greed it shows. Why? Because at the end of the day that doesn't impede my fun, or anyone else's fun, or imbalance the game, or even if implemented correctly fuck up the economy. It's all cosmetic and something I can buy into if I want, to show off or just to look good while sojourning around Nexus.
I want to see what they can do with it, honestly. Hell, if Carbine decides to go down the line of what EQNext or Valve are trying by giving players the tools to create mods and/or other content for the game, an in game shop could even prove to be a good market for content creators to sell their creations to players.
I can understand why people hate subs. I can understand why people hate NCSoft. I can understand people's jaded mistrust. But really, I think it's silly to throw any game away or it's potential simply on the basis of a business model, especially when one hasn't even played the game or seen said model in action, as each time it's implemented it often has unique aspects to it unique to it's developer/publisher's needs and the needs of the game/what it can provide. I say we should still try and get in beta, give Wildstar a fair shake, see what the business model becomes pre-launch as it's fleshed out in practical terms and presented to us in the beta, and then make our final determinations at launch. We have a set date for all that now (aside from not knowing exactly when beta will return).
I for one am glad they went this route and am more convinced then ever in my decision to try and set up a PA Dominion guild and presence in the game that I hope can last a long time, despite these misgivings and the nebulous nature of PAer commitments to a single game.
@Corehealer, the idea that we should actually keep following this game, do our best to get into beta, and intelligently debate whether or not the game is good enough to actually justify a sub fee is crazy.
other games do f2p without locking content behind paywalls. just because tor has a super shitty system doesn't mean others are all just as shitty. really it's hard to think of a worse example than tor because they did pretty much everything wrong.
+1
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
@Corehealer, the idea that we should actually keep following this game, do our best to get into beta, and intelligently debate whether or not the game is good enough to actually justify a sub fee is crazy.
So crazy.
It just might work.
I disagreed with you on Neverwinter, ironzerg, like a lot of people (I look forward to playing Wildstar with you regardless), and a lot of people also would look at me as the guy who hyped GW2 for years then dumped it a month after launch. And that's true. But these various experiences with SWTOR and Neverwinter and GW2 and other games have helped to crystallize, in my mind, what exactly it is I want from a new long term MMO, which I do want. And nostalgia or some renewed appeal to a new WoW is much less a factor then it used to be for me.
I don't want to discredit people's concerns, especially because they may very well be correct about how it'll turn out for both Wildstar's immediate and long term success. But I also don't want those same people to discount Wildstar completely just because NCSoft unjustly pulled the plug on CoH or because they just don't have the money for it right now.
@Entaru, I especially hope you'll still come try and play in the beta at least. Your one of the people I'd be most interested in bankrolling with CREDD to get you in the game so we can play together; I still remember our time playing GW2 together fondly, however brief a time it was, and would be sad if my Mechari dominatrix didn't have someone around to carry the slack adventure with.
I just don't think, for all the immediate success and net positives for us on the face of it, that F2P games in the MMO space, or in any space really, are the only future for games, because they aren't sustainable and do all sorts of horrible things to the balance of the game. I want to see more games go sub again, to counter balance that F2P market and give people who want to put up for a sustained and unmolested experience, cosmetic cash shops included or no, a place for their time and money and entertainment.
+1
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
other games do f2p without locking content behind paywalls. just because tor has a super shitty system doesn't mean others are all just as shitty. really it's hard to think of a worse example than tor because they did pretty much everything wrong.
True, but even in better examples like TF2 or even sometimes World of Tanks, where the only paymasters are optional premium tanks and gold ammo/exp boosts to get to later tiers, there must always be an incentive to pay for something. These games always need to find a hook, or else why bother?
The trick is to find something that sells that doesn't fuck gameplay, or fuck it up too much, and some games like the ones I just mentioned do it better then others. But that incentive is still present in all F2P titles and the temptation is always there to sell a sparkle pony that just happens to be faster then your average bohemian steed.
Wildstar going sub means they can focus on not doing that stuff or doing it in a very tame, cosmetic way, to earn extra revenue here and there without killing game mechanics or fucking up the economy (SWTOR made Artifice crafting crystals essentially dead by adding level 10 crystals that level as you go to their CC marketplace that can be sold on the GTN). We need to avoid that and keep the essential game playable without any need to pay beyond the sub at the most basic level. Add constant content patches and even expansions and chances are good this thing can go far on it's merits.
other games do f2p without locking content behind paywalls. just because tor has a super shitty system doesn't mean others are all just as shitty. really it's hard to think of a worse example than tor because they did pretty much everything wrong.
I want to say the point of his post was not 'SWTORs F2P model is garbage so that means F2P is a bad system'. The central point of his post is that saying 'I am not playing this game because it has a subscription based model, without even playing the game to evaluate its worth in your monthly budget seems silly'. I for one totally agree. Its better if everyone got their hands on the game and make a judgement call from there.
Considering the merits of each system are generally subjective to people, it makes both systems hard to debate with out bias. I for one, like both systems if implemented correctly.
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Penny-Arcade loves games and no matter the actual quality of the game it's extremely likely that you can find a thread on the forums where people adore it. You need a real stinker like Duke Nukem Forever to have the thread turn on it. Not making any sort of value judgment on Wildstar just saying that this forum has never been a place to get a full spectrum of opinions. :P
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Penny-Arcade loves games and no matter the actual quality of the game it's extremely likely that you can find a thread on the forums where people adore it. You need a real stinker like Duke Nukem Forever to have the thread turn on it. Not making any sort of value judgment on Wildstar just saying that this forum has never been a place to get a full spectrum of opinions. :P
My general optimism for upcoming games, especially MMOs, got completely fucking crushed when the seemingly super amazing Guild Wars 2 turned out to be a monotonous grind-filled mediocrity with a handful of really neat ideas that made the game preview really well.
It'll happen to the rest of you at some point, if it already hasn't. When, how, with what game? Them's thar questions.
If Carbine are smart, they have a plan for going free to play or buy to play within 6 months of launch. They may not need one, they may not want one, but they should have one.
+1
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
If Carbine are smart, they have a plan for going free to play or buy to play within 6 months of launch. They may not need one, they may not want one, but they should have one.
After all the deliberations they must have had to come to this conclusion, then chances are high that they do, just in case. Contrasted with SWTOR's lack of a F2P plan after their game started hemorrhaging.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
If Carbine are smart, they have a plan for going free to play or buy to play within 6 months of launch. They may not need one, they may not want one, but they should have one.
After all the deliberations they must have had to come to this conclusion, then chances are high that they do, just in case. Contrasted with SWTOR's lack of a F2P plan after their game started hemorrhaging.
Well why would a surefire success like The Old Republic need a back-up plan? After all, it's a premium game full of premium experiences!
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Penny-Arcade loves games and no matter the actual quality of the game it's extremely likely that you can find a thread on the forums where people adore it. You need a real stinker like Duke Nukem Forever to have the thread turn on it. Not making any sort of value judgment on Wildstar just saying that this forum has never been a place to get a full spectrum of opinions. :P
Thats the nature of forums though. With the majority of us following the 'If I don't like the game I am not going to post in the thread about how much I dislike the game'. A good example, I don't enjoy DOTA2 at all. I don't enjoy the art style I don't enjoy the game play, its not a game I like at all. However I am not going to drop into the DOTA2 thread and post how much I hate the game and start debating with people who obviously enjoy the game and the art style. That would be pointless.
I don't agree with the statement that you are not going to get a good spectrum of opinions The EQNext thread is a good example of people debating the merits of different systems, in a mature manner.
I agree if you walk into thread and be like 'THIS GAME SUCKS' you're going to get jumped on.
League Of Legends: Ulven
+4
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
I dont get the massive love in this thread for this game.... else where the reviews were kinda mixed?
Penny-Arcade loves games and no matter the actual quality of the game it's extremely likely that you can find a thread on the forums where people adore it. You need a real stinker like Duke Nukem Forever to have the thread turn on it. Not making any sort of value judgment on Wildstar just saying that this forum has never been a place to get a full spectrum of opinions. :P
My general optimism for upcoming games, especially MMOs, got completely fucking crushed when the seemingly super amazing Guild Wars 2 turned out to be a monotonous grind-filled mediocrity with a handful of really neat ideas that made the game preview really well.
It'll happen to the rest of you at some point, if it already hasn't. When, how, with what game? Them's thar questions.
I had the same reaction to GW2 that you did, ultimately, despite the fact that I still see some aspects of that game in a good like and the fact that a year later it still has a fair number of PAers playing it every day, even among my own cliche left over from launch.
The difference is, I save my pessimisms for politics and the real world. MMOs are where I come to stay positive and seek the better aspects of humanity and human imagination. Even then it's hardly always the case to find those things here either, but it's better then the alternative.
@corehealer My experiences with Neverwinter have also helped shape my view on F2P, as it's the first big F2P I've really gotten into. I really enjoy the game and the mechanics, but as much as I like that part, there is that clawing of the cash shop, of swiping your credit, earning things via real life bucks instead of in the game that's always there.
Yes, you technically don't "need" anything in the shop. Yes, you can play it totally for free and still have fun.
But the cash shop is there, and the game is purposely set up in nearly every way to tempt you to swipe your credit card.
It's like going to a state fair and having to pay tickets to ride every ride, and different amounts for each attraction. Sure, you can go to the fair and just walk around and not spend a dime (and still have fun), but the real attractions involve you spending money. If you go to the fair, you're going to spend money...that's the way it is. But how much is always going to be a constant battle of will power.
You contrast that with a theme park, which may have a higher upfront ticket cost, but you can ride all the rides to your hearts content all day long. But you go in knowing that you're out $60 or whatever to get in the door. And that sets the expectation of what the experience should be.
And it's what I see in the F2P versus the P2P and even the B2P model. All three of which are trying to get you to spend money, but the ways the game is built are inherently different based on what the revenue model is, and after experiences with all three, none of them outright scare me off, and I won't write a game off based on that.
However how that model impacts the game now has to be a consideration for each and every gamer, because at the end of the day, it's the game that's going to make or break things, not the revenue model. A great game is still a great game, and a stinker is still a stinker whether it's free or not.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
If Carbine are smart, they have a plan for going free to play or buy to play within 6 months of launch. They may not need one, they may not want one, but they should have one.
After all the deliberations they must have had to come to this conclusion, then chances are high that they do, just in case. Contrasted with SWTOR's lack of a F2P plan after their game started hemorrhaging.
Well why would a surefire success like The Old Republic need a back-up plan? After all, it's a premium game full of premium experiences!
Premium is marketing spin and ironzerg should avoid using it in the future. At any rate I blame that game's failures on Bioware relying too heavily on an unfamiliar engine and it's over reliance on fully voiced content as a fifth piller, while ignoring the more important stuff and shooting themselves in the foot. I also blame EA for being EA as usual and sticking their dick in it because we need to wave it in Activision's face.
I still play it because I enjoy the story stuff and some of the PvP despite the static, false nature of the game. And because I found a way for myself to get around the worse excesses of the F2P model therein.
WoW sells expansions for $60 (only MoP was $40) almost a full year after their final content patches from previous expansions, meaning all the sub money from the last patch to the next expansion basically went into a black hole from a consumer standpoint. They are also effectively day-1 purchases for the entire existing user base. For comparison: EVE Online does not charge for their expansions, even though they easily could because it only looks greedy.
Threads on this forum do not exist to be communal cheer squads for games. Having said that, one with a critical or negative opinion on a game should enter a thread under the assumption it will be frequented by fans. Because, unless it's a train wreck like Duke Nukem or Alien: Colonial Marine where everyone is passing out marshmellows and seeing how brighter the flame can get, people aren't going to waste much time making posts on a game they hate.
Therefore, it would behoove a person to be constructive in their criticism and not childish drive-by sniping.
I actually lean toward preferring a subscription model. However, that guarantees I won't pick up the game on day 1.
I find the subscription model is better, IF I'm confident that the game is quality.
With non-sub models, such as GW2, I struggle to find the exact price entry point to maximize my enjoyment. I usually feel that I'm being stiffed if I'm only spending monthly subscription level money to purchase things in the cash shop.
I vastly, vastly prefer a model that makes me feel like I have full game access for the price of a subscription, and that's a price I'm willing to pay. If you don't do that way and go cash shop instead, too often you get a mode where everyone is a less important cash shop user except for the whales.
However, when you sell a box tied to a subscription, I have to wait at least a month before buying in to make sure you aren't part of the swathe of overhyped games that quickly burn out.
GW2 is just clearly a better model from the consumer perspective. The only thing that you can even argue is "necessary" with quote marks is 3 character slots to have an alt of every class in the game, and probably another bank tab. Everything else is just fluff, and you can very comfortably reach both the level cap and participate in the most elite content in the game without spending anything.
Subscriptions are the bad old way of doing MMO funding. GW2 has proven you can do a AAA MMO with biweekly content updates without a monthly subscription or hiding away content behind a cash shop (with the single real exception above).
The infinite use mining equipment mentioned above, for example, is cool because you can equip it once and never think about it again, but it's not actually even gold efficient. It costs 45,400 uses of the in-game currency worth of gold in gems, and the merchants are located everywhere, so it's basically the least necessary or offensive cash shop purchase ever.
+1
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Threads on this forum do not exist to be communal cheer squads for games. Having said that, one with a critical or negative opinion o a game should enter a thread under the assumption it will be frequented by fans. Because, unless it's a train wreck like Duke Nukem or Alien: Colonial Marine where everyone is passing out marshmellows and seeing how brighter the flame can get, people aren't going to waste much time making posts on a game they hate.
Therefore, it would behoove a person to be constructive in their criticism and not childish drive-by sniping.
Agreed.
Hope to see you in Nexus, Raz.
0
kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
I just don't want to deal with subscription fees anymore.
Maybe I am particularly psychologically vulnerable to the forces at play here, but I really dislike how a sub makes me continuously evaluate whether I'm getting my dollar's worth out of a game, and especially how it erects a huge barrier to me ever coming back to the game and checking it out later after leaving it for a period of time. There are certainly buy to play or free to play games where you have to weigh the value of items in the cash shop, but that's a thing you can generally assess once and never have to worry about again rather than something constantly in the back of my mind.
I recently fired up GW2 and started playing it casually after not touching it since last year, and that categorically would never have happened if I had to whip out my credit card to do it. I'm sure I will pop back in later in the year to check out some of the future content updates. There is a pretty strong appeal to being able to freely leave and come back to an MMORPG with zero opportunity cost, and it will make me more willing to give a game another try after a hiatus, or purchase it in the first place.
As it stands, I am pretty disenchanted with the entire genre in general, and Wildstar has always looked like a polished re-shuffling of well established paradigms, but there's a good chance I would have given it a try regardless if I could just buy the box and "have" it. The subscription fee simply means that I will absolutely never play the game. I feel pretty much exactly the same way about FF14.
Sub games occasionally have a "come back and try free" promotions - they seemed more common in the era when everything was sub-based. But they always want a good CC# from you so you can get put on autorenew. Seems like the way to successfully lure customers back is to offer a free one-hour trial or something, and then lure customers back in by prompting them to enter their CC# at that time, rather than making them do it to try the game again at all.
The only MMO pay model that doesn't make me raise one or both of my eyebrows in skepticism is Buy-2-Play, like Guild Wars 2. Subscription models raise my monetary eyebrow, and free-to-play models raise my annoying bullshit eyebrow. A really good game that I get enjoyment out of is sufficient to suppress either brow.
+3
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
With all that eyebrow movement, your face must be twitchier than a 13-year old drinking his fourth Slurpee.
Are that many people that hard up that $15/mo (or less if you get like a 3mo sub) is some monumental monetary investment? I'm glad to see the subscription choice, but also expected there to be some kind of F2P option as well. I would rather slap down my money and just play -- the opposite of Scosglen -- that I don't want to constantly have to evaluate *while playing* what X Y or Z is going to cost me. Or what onerous BS I'm dealing with that constantly breaks immersion to eliminate with said funbux items when I could just pay a sub and go.
Premium is marketing spin and ironzerg should avoid using it in the future.
I take issue with this because there is definitely a consumer perception about what is and isn't premium. And just having a marketing blitz toss the word out ain't it, because consumers will toss that back in your face so fast you won't hear all the money you're NOT making.
Go buy a suit. Go to Men's Warehouse. Go to Hugo Boss. One is premium. One is not. Now whether or not a consumer finds value in paying for that extra premium is a totally subjective argument. But the idea that one suit is premium over the other isn't.
I think the idea that such a disparity could exist or evolve in the MMO market isn't too far-fetched of an idea to warrant outright dismissal.
GW2 is just clearly a better model from the consumer perspective. The only thing that you can even argue is "necessary" with quote marks is 3 character slots to have an alt of every class in the game, and probably another bank tab. Everything else is just fluff, and you can very comfortably reach both the level cap and participate in the most elite content in the game without spending anything.
Which is a problem with a business designed to make money.
And GW2 is still a "wait and see". It's only been a year. They've sold 3 million copies, which does put a lot of money in the bank. But where will they be after year two. Year three. Year four. Especially with the promise that all the content updates are going to be free, with no expansions. As cash flows become tighter and tighter and GW2 is forced to chase revenue outside of box copies, it'll be interesting indeed to see where B2P goes.
If the first year for GW2 is any indication, they'll be putting out major content updates daily by year 2. Their content patches are now coming more frequently than when they launched, every two weeks, and it's not small things either: New zones, new puzzles, world events, personal story, new dungeons, new mini-dungeon, new outfits, temporary event themed mini pvp games... Really everything you could imagine save for new classes.
I get that there's plenty of people that don't like the style of the game. If nothing else, GW2 is a great example of how constant content updates can be funded by adorable hats, convenience items and slot machine treasure chests.
BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
David [email protected]_Scooter Fixing some links and minor grammar tweaks on the biz model page. The evil part of me wants to go in and change it to "JK $75 A MONTH LOL"
You know, I'm not sure I would have picked up FFXIV:ARR if they had charged a full $60 box price. The fact that the box was only $30 made the monthly fee much more palatable. I know its a mostly negligible amount of money either way in the long run, and I know everybody puts their own value on these decisions, but something about the cheap initial investment really put me over the edge into buying it. Then again, I had enough fun with the beta that I might have caved in and paid $60 anyway... nobody tell Square that.
I guess the lesson here is, make a good enough game and I'll pay you more money than I probably should for it? Oh and you have to let me play in your beta, I'm not spending $60 + $15xN without trying it out first.
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That takes enormous balls. Whether or not there's more balls than brains behind Wildstar, only time will tell.
That's all.
even with a subscription wow still has a cash shop. it feels to me like that game is just milking the die hards for more and more money to cover their falling subscription numbers
I guess the idea is that since the sub is a steady source of income, they can pay their employees a steady salary instead of the F2P/cash shop model of some months paying them nothing and some months paying them a trillion dollars after a particularly popular princess dress launches in the shop, which in turn results in a more steady workflow from the employees and thus they can guarantee a steady amount of content.
This is how a 7 person indie startup making Android games pays its employees, not a large studio and publisher making an MMORPG on an 8 figure budget.
So, not even remotely applicable to Carbine and Wildstar.
WoW sells expansions for $60 (only MoP was $40) almost a full year after their final content patches from previous expansions, meaning all the sub money from the last patch to the next expansion basically went into a black hole from a consumer standpoint. They are also effectively day-1 purchases for the entire existing user base. For comparison: EVE Online does not charge for their expansions, even though they easily could because it only looks greedy.
Regardless of what Blizzard likes to tell people, almost no one who bought and sold WoW accounts was ever banned since they paid for subscriptions. Hacked accounts also never had gametime removed from them knowing full well they were paid for with stolen credit or 60-day sub cards. I know the guy who ran a major account selling site (tgs.net) and at least 20 people who have sold their accounts that were never banned, even with extremely unique gear and achievements like Atiesh, Black AQ bug mounts, and a smearing of server first titles, all of which are advertised to sell the accounts.
Wildstar seems to have realised the point of having cash shops in games is basically to show off your wealth. They could extremely easily implement a cash shop for stuff to put in your house with very little backlash, but then the majority of the incentive to buy them (see: to show them off) is lacking and would make the housing experience shallower for people that don't want to pay up.
Using the PLEX system from EVE is also fucking genius because it heavily mitigates the RMT market. Anyone who wants to buy gold in games will take the path of least resistance which is entirely controlled by Carbine, and people who want to sell their gold for real money will have to undercut the CREDD market which will establish the value.
The announcement of their pricing structure actually has me more excited to try Wildstar than when it was potentially another adventure into the shitstorm of F2P. Now the game has to live up the hype, which is the hard part.
Whatever their motivations are, I bet they've got a long term plan. Carbine seems to have an excellent understanding of MMOs (well, from the game mechanics side at least), so I'll uncharacteristically give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
I'm fine with either model and will play the game regardless if I like the what I see in the beta. Though I certainly prefer a subscription model without the cash shop because I will without fail spend more in a game's cash shop than on a subscription.
Oh I see.
With a sub, they can afford to buy big pots of honey. Then they leave those open next to the coding stations and a giant swarm of fucking bees comes in and they start hitting the keys on the keyboard and boooooom new content!
With a free to play model, they can't afford to buy big pots of honey as often, so sometimes they smear peanut butter on the keyboards and let Spot and Dookie lick the keyboards, resulting in a slower content generation rate.
This made me LOLZ at work, thanks for that.
Now the sub/not sub thing. Which btw APB had- and if you are a savvy or lucky player you'll never end up actually paying but trading ion game cash for it. So it could turn out cool.
Whats so awesome about this?
I like the model PLEX style model. Does it mean I have to evaluate if I am getting my 15 dollars worth every month? Yah it does, but that's the case with just about everything I do. With the price of entertainment today its hard not to say 'Yah, $15 a month is worth it'. If I play for 3 Hours a day and I am enjoying myself its more then worth it to me. I mean going to see a movie with my wife costs $22 and rising, we also no longer get drinks. that is like 2-3 hours of entertainment for $22. If I am getting 2-3 hours of entertainment a day for $15 a month. That is worth it to me. However its totally subjective and honestly I haven't found a free to play model outside of 'League of legends' which allows me to play dress up with my favorite champions in the game. That actually got me to use it. In this case if I am enjoying the game enough and making the CREED I don't have to put any money into it.
There are pros and cons to sub vs F2P. Neither of which effect me either way. I'll play because its enjoyable and if there is a sub pay wall, I'll pay to get past it until I no longer enjoy it.
I mean if people don't want to pay every month and evaluate if their getting their moneys worth every month, then well that is their prerogative.
Death Robots and Space Hamsters.
Honestly though a lot of the love comes from; the art style, the combat system and the vision that they have for the game. The funny 'Dev Diary' videos are pretty good to.
The majority of us refuse to read reviews of anything. Mostly because video game review sites are cesspits of anti-journalism and game ratings make the world a worse place. So we watch the videos from carbine, read the patch notes and generally pay attention to whats coming out of their mouth, then take it with a pinch of salt. What we see we like. Until we get our hands on the game itself though we will continue to enjoy being video game voyeurs.
I'll keep my response to this flurry of information short and simple by pointing to the above in agreement and adding that as someone who is reasonably financially stable, loves MMOs and has grown to increasingly distrust and disregard F2P titles over the last few years, this announcement really makes me happy and reaffirms my faith that Wildstar will be the one for me long term.
Obviously all this must still be tested as Crip says when the hype train docks at the Nexus station and we actually have the reality of playing the game in our hands. But the way they are handling the business model looks at this moment, to me at least, like both a wise investment and a projection of confidence in their product, something I haven't seen in any F2P game besides GW2.
I've been playing SWTOR again lately, and if it wasn't for the constant in game credit support of @Cambiata and my own savings to unlock the unlocks inherent to that horrible F2P system, I'd have long ago given up on the fun moments I derive from that game and been left playing the same old or some new hotness or some new F2P thing that had it's own issues, like my recent experiences with World of Tanks. Even as it stands I've had to spend a bit of money to get back into SWTOR by switching my characters legacy over to a new server in order to get situated and have access to the renewed PA interest on Cam's server.
All that recent experience has made me all the more interested in having a simple subscription to pay each month and have, if not everything, then the core of the game and it's mechanics/conveniences intact and unmolested by nickel and diming. Sure, NCSoft probably will do a cash shop, most likely on a model of selling us pretty outfits and stuff for our floating houses. Honestly, I would like to have that convenience too even despite the greed it shows. Why? Because at the end of the day that doesn't impede my fun, or anyone else's fun, or imbalance the game, or even if implemented correctly fuck up the economy. It's all cosmetic and something I can buy into if I want, to show off or just to look good while sojourning around Nexus.
I want to see what they can do with it, honestly. Hell, if Carbine decides to go down the line of what EQNext or Valve are trying by giving players the tools to create mods and/or other content for the game, an in game shop could even prove to be a good market for content creators to sell their creations to players.
I can understand why people hate subs. I can understand why people hate NCSoft. I can understand people's jaded mistrust. But really, I think it's silly to throw any game away or it's potential simply on the basis of a business model, especially when one hasn't even played the game or seen said model in action, as each time it's implemented it often has unique aspects to it unique to it's developer/publisher's needs and the needs of the game/what it can provide. I say we should still try and get in beta, give Wildstar a fair shake, see what the business model becomes pre-launch as it's fleshed out in practical terms and presented to us in the beta, and then make our final determinations at launch. We have a set date for all that now (aside from not knowing exactly when beta will return).
I for one am glad they went this route and am more convinced then ever in my decision to try and set up a PA Dominion guild and presence in the game that I hope can last a long time, despite these misgivings and the nebulous nature of PAer commitments to a single game.
Heh that turned out to be not so simple or short.
So crazy.
It just might work.
I disagreed with you on Neverwinter, ironzerg, like a lot of people (I look forward to playing Wildstar with you regardless), and a lot of people also would look at me as the guy who hyped GW2 for years then dumped it a month after launch. And that's true. But these various experiences with SWTOR and Neverwinter and GW2 and other games have helped to crystallize, in my mind, what exactly it is I want from a new long term MMO, which I do want. And nostalgia or some renewed appeal to a new WoW is much less a factor then it used to be for me.
I don't want to discredit people's concerns, especially because they may very well be correct about how it'll turn out for both Wildstar's immediate and long term success. But I also don't want those same people to discount Wildstar completely just because NCSoft unjustly pulled the plug on CoH or because they just don't have the money for it right now.
@Entaru, I especially hope you'll still come try and play in the beta at least. Your one of the people I'd be most interested in bankrolling with CREDD to get you in the game so we can play together; I still remember our time playing GW2 together fondly, however brief a time it was, and would be sad if my Mechari dominatrix didn't have someone around to carry the slack adventure with.
I just don't think, for all the immediate success and net positives for us on the face of it, that F2P games in the MMO space, or in any space really, are the only future for games, because they aren't sustainable and do all sorts of horrible things to the balance of the game. I want to see more games go sub again, to counter balance that F2P market and give people who want to put up for a sustained and unmolested experience, cosmetic cash shops included or no, a place for their time and money and entertainment.
True, but even in better examples like TF2 or even sometimes World of Tanks, where the only paymasters are optional premium tanks and gold ammo/exp boosts to get to later tiers, there must always be an incentive to pay for something. These games always need to find a hook, or else why bother?
The trick is to find something that sells that doesn't fuck gameplay, or fuck it up too much, and some games like the ones I just mentioned do it better then others. But that incentive is still present in all F2P titles and the temptation is always there to sell a sparkle pony that just happens to be faster then your average bohemian steed.
Wildstar going sub means they can focus on not doing that stuff or doing it in a very tame, cosmetic way, to earn extra revenue here and there without killing game mechanics or fucking up the economy (SWTOR made Artifice crafting crystals essentially dead by adding level 10 crystals that level as you go to their CC marketplace that can be sold on the GTN). We need to avoid that and keep the essential game playable without any need to pay beyond the sub at the most basic level. Add constant content patches and even expansions and chances are good this thing can go far on it's merits.
I want to say the point of his post was not 'SWTORs F2P model is garbage so that means F2P is a bad system'. The central point of his post is that saying 'I am not playing this game because it has a subscription based model, without even playing the game to evaluate its worth in your monthly budget seems silly'. I for one totally agree. Its better if everyone got their hands on the game and make a judgement call from there.
Considering the merits of each system are generally subjective to people, it makes both systems hard to debate with out bias. I for one, like both systems if implemented correctly.
Penny-Arcade loves games and no matter the actual quality of the game it's extremely likely that you can find a thread on the forums where people adore it. You need a real stinker like Duke Nukem Forever to have the thread turn on it. Not making any sort of value judgment on Wildstar just saying that this forum has never been a place to get a full spectrum of opinions. :P
My general optimism for upcoming games, especially MMOs, got completely fucking crushed when the seemingly super amazing Guild Wars 2 turned out to be a monotonous grind-filled mediocrity with a handful of really neat ideas that made the game preview really well.
It'll happen to the rest of you at some point, if it already hasn't. When, how, with what game? Them's thar questions.
After all the deliberations they must have had to come to this conclusion, then chances are high that they do, just in case. Contrasted with SWTOR's lack of a F2P plan after their game started hemorrhaging.
Well why would a surefire success like The Old Republic need a back-up plan? After all, it's a premium game full of premium experiences!
Thats the nature of forums though. With the majority of us following the 'If I don't like the game I am not going to post in the thread about how much I dislike the game'. A good example, I don't enjoy DOTA2 at all. I don't enjoy the art style I don't enjoy the game play, its not a game I like at all. However I am not going to drop into the DOTA2 thread and post how much I hate the game and start debating with people who obviously enjoy the game and the art style. That would be pointless.
I don't agree with the statement that you are not going to get a good spectrum of opinions The EQNext thread is a good example of people debating the merits of different systems, in a mature manner.
I agree if you walk into thread and be like 'THIS GAME SUCKS' you're going to get jumped on.
I had the same reaction to GW2 that you did, ultimately, despite the fact that I still see some aspects of that game in a good like and the fact that a year later it still has a fair number of PAers playing it every day, even among my own cliche left over from launch.
The difference is, I save my pessimisms for politics and the real world. MMOs are where I come to stay positive and seek the better aspects of humanity and human imagination. Even then it's hardly always the case to find those things here either, but it's better then the alternative.
Yes, you technically don't "need" anything in the shop. Yes, you can play it totally for free and still have fun.
But the cash shop is there, and the game is purposely set up in nearly every way to tempt you to swipe your credit card.
It's like going to a state fair and having to pay tickets to ride every ride, and different amounts for each attraction. Sure, you can go to the fair and just walk around and not spend a dime (and still have fun), but the real attractions involve you spending money. If you go to the fair, you're going to spend money...that's the way it is. But how much is always going to be a constant battle of will power.
You contrast that with a theme park, which may have a higher upfront ticket cost, but you can ride all the rides to your hearts content all day long. But you go in knowing that you're out $60 or whatever to get in the door. And that sets the expectation of what the experience should be.
And it's what I see in the F2P versus the P2P and even the B2P model. All three of which are trying to get you to spend money, but the ways the game is built are inherently different based on what the revenue model is, and after experiences with all three, none of them outright scare me off, and I won't write a game off based on that.
However how that model impacts the game now has to be a consideration for each and every gamer, because at the end of the day, it's the game that's going to make or break things, not the revenue model. A great game is still a great game, and a stinker is still a stinker whether it's free or not.
Premium is marketing spin and ironzerg should avoid using it in the future. At any rate I blame that game's failures on Bioware relying too heavily on an unfamiliar engine and it's over reliance on fully voiced content as a fifth piller, while ignoring the more important stuff and shooting themselves in the foot. I also blame EA for being EA as usual and sticking their dick in it because we need to wave it in Activision's face.
I still play it because I enjoy the story stuff and some of the PvP despite the static, false nature of the game. And because I found a way for myself to get around the worse excesses of the F2P model therein.
Therefore, it would behoove a person to be constructive in their criticism and not childish drive-by sniping.
GW2 is just clearly a better model from the consumer perspective. The only thing that you can even argue is "necessary" with quote marks is 3 character slots to have an alt of every class in the game, and probably another bank tab. Everything else is just fluff, and you can very comfortably reach both the level cap and participate in the most elite content in the game without spending anything.
Subscriptions are the bad old way of doing MMO funding. GW2 has proven you can do a AAA MMO with biweekly content updates without a monthly subscription or hiding away content behind a cash shop (with the single real exception above).
The infinite use mining equipment mentioned above, for example, is cool because you can equip it once and never think about it again, but it's not actually even gold efficient. It costs 45,400 uses of the in-game currency worth of gold in gems, and the merchants are located everywhere, so it's basically the least necessary or offensive cash shop purchase ever.
Agreed.
Hope to see you in Nexus, Raz.
Sub games occasionally have a "come back and try free" promotions - they seemed more common in the era when everything was sub-based. But they always want a good CC# from you so you can get put on autorenew. Seems like the way to successfully lure customers back is to offer a free one-hour trial or something, and then lure customers back in by prompting them to enter their CC# at that time, rather than making them do it to try the game again at all.
I take issue with this because there is definitely a consumer perception about what is and isn't premium. And just having a marketing blitz toss the word out ain't it, because consumers will toss that back in your face so fast you won't hear all the money you're NOT making.
Go buy a suit. Go to Men's Warehouse. Go to Hugo Boss. One is premium. One is not. Now whether or not a consumer finds value in paying for that extra premium is a totally subjective argument. But the idea that one suit is premium over the other isn't.
I think the idea that such a disparity could exist or evolve in the MMO market isn't too far-fetched of an idea to warrant outright dismissal.
Which is a problem with a business designed to make money.
And GW2 is still a "wait and see". It's only been a year. They've sold 3 million copies, which does put a lot of money in the bank. But where will they be after year two. Year three. Year four. Especially with the promise that all the content updates are going to be free, with no expansions. As cash flows become tighter and tighter and GW2 is forced to chase revenue outside of box copies, it'll be interesting indeed to see where B2P goes.
Not being critical, just an observation.
I get that there's plenty of people that don't like the style of the game. If nothing else, GW2 is a great example of how constant content updates can be funded by adorable hats, convenience items and slot machine treasure chests.
Fixing some links and minor grammar tweaks on the biz model page. The evil part of me wants to go in and change it to "JK $75 A MONTH LOL"
"...only mights and maybes."
I guess the lesson here is, make a good enough game and I'll pay you more money than I probably should for it? Oh and you have to let me play in your beta, I'm not spending $60 + $15xN without trying it out first.