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Strip Search - You Are Your Brand

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  • hotzphotzp Rochester, NYRegistered User regular
    I think Lexxy does an excellent job of managing her public persona according to the guidelines she explained in this episode, based on reaction to her here and on Twitter; she seems like a genuinely nice and polite person who doesn't want to engage in negativity.

    Unfortunately, she definitely got caught in the meta-challenge about not engaging trolls too much in person, which might happen at a con or a panel. Having sat on a few con panels before, I know from personal experience that you will get some awkward or thinly-veiled hostile questions from the crowd either addressed to the group or you, individually.

    Splive
  • GeekfatherGeekfather Registered User regular
    I used to hang out in the PVP Forums a long, looooong time ago. SKurtz knows trolls. That place was rife with them.

    Hardman
  • WangchangbackupWangchangbackup Registered User regular
    Poor Nick. Win the social challenge, get a tablet; win the real challenge, have to send people to Thunderdome.

    I agree with the choice, though. I understand what Tavis was going for, but rejecting the challenge is different than not feeding the trolls. The whole idea was "How would you respond to these people," and to not even try was a bold risk, but I get why that counts as a cop-out.

    And I felt like Lexxy was just digging a hole, not necessarily on purpose or even by saying anything wrong or offensive but just by piling it on. Some of that may be editing, they focused more on her because it became a factor in the episode, but it was kind of uncomfortable to watch. Which I thought was kind of interesting, because Lexxy's Twitter is one of the better-maintained and more engaging among the remaining artists. I think it just got away from her, really.

    BLTankxdeathknightx
  • NijhazerNijhazer Sunnyvale, CARegistered User regular
    Yeah, this one's bound to be controversial. But I agree with Kurtz. Lexxy's take is valid, if you're a customer service representative. As a creator of content, though, you need to prioritize your creative voice over whether or not people think you're a rational and well-adjusted individual.

    tapeslinger
  • WarmthWarmth Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I feel like Lexxy's only problem was being like a lot of us and extremely over-thinking something she's good at. I feel like I'm doing exactly what she did any time someone asks me about something I've thought too long about.

    Warmth on
    hotzp
  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    Exactly, wangchang. It wasn't the content of Lexxy's argument that was the problem. It was the length. At some point you just need to let it go. She got sucked into a flamewar, however low the voltage, and when you have a brand to protect, flamewars are generally a terrible idea.

    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
    BLTank
  • Shi no TenshiShi no Tenshi Registered User new member
    I find it funny that one of the reasonings Lexxy used for not putting depreciating was not wanting white knights to come to her rescue. Yet there are a large amount of her supporters doing exactly what she said she doesn't like....

  • GamercowGamercow Registered User regular
    I think my content was eaten by a grue.

    In short: I think Lexxy's stubbornness/need to be right got her in trouble here, and her time management will make her lose the elimination.

    Still on Team Monica.

    HalenNotaCylonGgrecoRaakam
  • GamercowGamercow Registered User regular
    Also, was Tavis/Nick humming "Apache" by Sugar Hill Gang? I think he was. Am I showing my age?

    Mynt
  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    Gamercow wrote: »
    Also, was Tavis/Nick humming "Apache" by Sugar Hill Gang? I think he was. Am I showing my age?
    Yes, that's what the dance was to :)

    86diUMN.png5OEMupX.png
    Mynt
  • GamercowGamercow Registered User regular
    I find it very interesting that they had Scott Kurtz as the moderator here, because I've seen him get in some very inappropriate exchanges on twitter, and put forth a bad image/stick to his guns a little too much. The one that comes first to my mind is in a podcast, he basically said "I don't want people to come to my booth to just shoot the shit. Buy something or GTFO." For me, that ruined my image of him, and made me wary of his persona. Almost made me write off his comic, but not quite.

    To the challenge at hand: Lexxy absolutely did the wrong thing here. Not so much in her responding to the reader in the way she did, but moreso the way she reacted to Scott. It appears that she likes getting the last word, and/or has a hard time agreeing to disagree. Scott is the wrong person to do this to, because he will absolutely dig in for the fight. I also agree with the second selection, and I think Tavis was as well. That endears me to him, as it shows the maturity to say "Yup, I fucked up. Bring the elimination challenge." I also found it interesting that Scott said zero about Erika and Mac's, but that may have been some LRR editing for time magic.

    Elimination should be interesting, because I really don't think that Lexxy has the time management skills to get it done. I liked that Mike harped on that a little, too, possibly trying to rattle her a bit.

    NotaCylontapeslinger
  • Roger WilcoRoger Wilco Registered User regular
    Gamercow wrote: »
    I find it very interesting that they had Scott Kurtz as the moderator here, because I've seen him get in some very inappropriate exchanges on twitter, and put forth a bad image/stick to his guns a little too much. The one that comes first to my mind is in a podcast, he basically said "I don't want people to come to my booth to just shoot the shit. Buy something or GTFO." For me, that ruined my image of him, and made me wary of his persona. Almost made me write off his comic, but not quite.

    To the challenge at hand: Lexxy absolutely did the wrong thing here. Not so much in her responding to the reader in the way she did, but moreso the way she reacted to Scott. It appears that she likes getting the last word, and/or has a hard time agreeing to disagree. Scott is the wrong person to do this to, because he will absolutely dig in for the fight. I also agree with the second selection, and I think Tavis was as well. That endears me to him, as it shows the maturity to say "Yup, I fucked up. Bring the elimination challenge." I also found it interesting that Scott said zero about Erika and Mac's, but that may have been some LRR editing for time magic.

    Elimination should be interesting, because I really don't think that Lexxy has the time management skills to get it done. I liked that Mike harped on that a little, too, possibly trying to rattle her a bit.

    Yeah they addressed that a bit in the show. He was a good judge of a bad or good tweet, not because he was good at it, but because he was bad at it.

    "Not far below you is a large horizontal plane which proves beneficial in maximizing the exploitation of gravity."
    tapeslinger
  • korviskorvis Registered User regular
    Everyone is noting Lexxy's time management skills and I'm sure that will be a factor in her failure but I'm not even confident in her ability to write a funny comic. She is a good artist but she doesn't even have a strip of her own yet does she?

    Ggreco
  • CNECNE Registered User regular
    I thought this episode had great pacing and some very nice humanizing moments (like Kurtz & the Strippers talking shop in the kitchen).

    What makes this show different from other reality TV shows - and very enjoyable - is how there is very little competition in the competitors. There's no polarizing contestant like Boston Rob: They all like each other and it seems like they all would be very happy if anybody of the group won. This dynamic wouldn't have developed if Strip Search forced the competitors into teams.

    Because the contestants all like each other, they all feel awful watching two of their number nominated for elimination and are likewise genuinely relieved when one returns. Even discussion about game theory from Amy & the others seems a lot less cutthroat when cross-cut with reaction shots of welcoming the elimination winner.

    It makes the show feels less like a reality TV game show and more like a reality TV horror show. PATV Presents: artSAW, starring Jerry Holkins as Billy the puppet.


    Ggreco
  • ProprietyPropriety Registered User regular
    edited March 2013

    Yeah they addressed that a bit in the show. He was a good judge of a bad or good tweet, not because he was good at it, but because he was bad at it.

    That's ridiculous, though. That'd be like Project Runway bringing on a judge who has designed terrible clothing. That doesn't necessarily give them any unique perspective on what is right or wrong.

    I've interacted with Scott at PAX and he seemed very nice, very cordial. I was near his booth and had no intention of buying anything from him and we somehow got into a conversation on Doctor Who. It was delightful. But given his history of how I've seen him act on the internet and his attitude when it comes to fans, I don't think he was the right judge for this challenge. He's not an expert on this subject, and he doesn't claim to be. Forcing him to be a judge on it was, I think, unfair to both him and the contestants.

    I don't think Mike would have been the right judge either. Look at his newspost today: he seems to legitimately believe that they only three types of people who would engage him with complaints are trolls, idiots who accidentally say his name, or people who hate him. There's apparently no room in his worldview for people who have legitimate complaints. Which was Lexxy's entire point, it seemed. That she's open to, you know, addressing legitimate complaints about representation, if they should arise.

    You can have your "voice" as an artist, but if the response you get from your audience isn't what you're intending to get from the projection of that voice, then there is DEFINITELY reason to change that voice. This idea that an artist should just shut off their ears and spew whatever comes out of their brain directly onto the internet might work for some people (Scott and Mike, for example) but it's not the only way to be.

    Two of the tweets were definitely troll tweets. The last one, though, was a legit complaint, and knocking Lexxy for inviting an email about it was ridiculous. If it turns out to be another troll, she can just delete the email. :/

    Propriety on
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  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    Great episode, loved seeing Kurtz.

    Can't wait for the next one, I can't choose between them! Again!

    Tavis should draw a dad comic; he's the only one there who can tap that well.

  • enderandrewenderandrew Registered User regular
    Specifically on an accusation of stereotypes, I might engage a reader for feedback because writers could care about avoiding tropes and stereotypes. Writers should seek to improve.

    It is odd seeing Scott as a judge on how to manage a brand, and not someone like Khoo. I think Scott is a neat person, but he has famously blown up at people online repeatedly. I get that with his work and his site, he is fully entitled to express whatever opinion he wants, but it seems at times he thinks readers aren't entitled to have their opinions (even if they post them other than on his site).

    Scott is an enigma because sometimes I think he cares more about his strip than any other web-cartoonist I read. He really wants to do a good job. But he actively avoids criticism.

    I once made a passing criticism of him (not even thinking he'd see it) on Google+ and his response was to make a joke about my name being silly. So obviously, he doesn't blow up all time time in regards to criticism. But he is certainly inconsistent in how he responds, which makes him an odd judge for this challenge.

    I did agree with Lexxy's viewpoint initially, but I also understand her continuing to argue her point to someone judging her ultimately did her no favors.

    CambiataNotaCylon
  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    Propriety wrote: »
    Yeah they addressed that a bit in the show. He was a good judge of a bad or good tweet, not because he was good at it, but because he was bad at it.
    I don't think Mike would have been the right judge either. Look at his newspost today: he seems to legitimately believe that they only three types of people who would engage him with complaints are trolls, idiots who accidentally say his name, or people who hate him. There's apparently no room in his worldview for people who have legitimate complaints. Which was Lexxy's entire point, it seemed. That she's open to, you know, addressing legitimate complaints about representation, if they should arise.
    That's actually not what Mike said at all. He said there were three types of Trolls that he gets on twitter. Not only three types of people.
    Gabriel wrote:
    I have learned that there are really three major types of trolls that I tend to get on Twitter.

    86diUMN.png5OEMupX.png
  • seegruseegru Master of None St. PaulRegistered User regular
    Another great episode. Agree with the choices for elimination. Lexy,... Waaaay too soft with your fan interactions (tweets) IMHO.

  • smallviziersmallvizier Registered User regular
    I believe that an artist should find their own voice and method. But that's as far as I agree with Scott.

    Tavis and Lexxi had both thought deeply about how they wanted to engage with their fans. They each came up with a coherent method and stuck to it. To my mind that means they've cracked it.

    Deciding not to engage with 'haters' is completely legitimate. So is being consistently sympathetic. Eventually the fans who stick with you will be the ones who respond to your approach.

    Cambiata
  • piLpiL Registered User regular
    Ouch, this is harsh. I guess when it comes down to it, everybody I like but one person has to go. Happy to see Katie is not on the chopping block this week.

    I hope things went well for you Lexxy, but if not, that's OK too; you're still great!

  • DCAarmusDCAarmus Registered User regular
    I think the problem with Lexxy's approach was not so much her philosophy, but the amount of time spent on deep engagement. It's a dangerous rabbit whole that might lead of some happy fans, but kills creative output. This can murder a daily strip and can't be good for general productivity on a long form project. Comics aren't made with Gmail. Keeping engagement thoughtful and concise is essential for time management.

    I have a feeling this elimination is going to be rough.

  • UNHchaboUNHchabo Registered User regular
    Propriety wrote: »

    Yeah they addressed that a bit in the show. He was a good judge of a bad or good tweet, not because he was good at it, but because he was bad at it.

    That's ridiculous, though. That'd be like Project Runway bringing on a judge who has designed terrible clothing. That doesn't necessarily give them any unique perspective on what is right or wrong.

    As long as that judge has also designed good clothing, I'd say some bad experiences in their career will help them judge. What useful critiques can be given by a judge who has always succeeded?

    zerzhulWassermelone
  • Shi no TenshiShi no Tenshi Registered User new member
    Propriety wrote: »
    I don't think Mike would have been the right judge either. Look at his newspost today: he seems to legitimately believe that they only three types of people who would engage him with complaints are trolls, idiots who accidentally say his name, or people who hate him. There's apparently no room in his worldview for people who have legitimate complaints.

    This seems more like you projecting what you think of his attitude on him more than what he said. He was directly addressing types of trolls; it was you that decided to use that as a lens to see his entire view on a subject. Not exactly a fair way to view somebody, is it?

    zerzhul
  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2013
    Propriety wrote: »
    I don't think Mike would have been the right judge either. Look at his newspost today: he seems to legitimately believe that they only three types of people who would engage him with complaints are trolls, idiots who accidentally say his name, or people who hate him. There's apparently no room in his worldview for people who have legitimate complaints.
    This seems more like you projecting what you think of his attitude on him more than what he said. He was directly addressing types of trolls; it was you that decided to use that as a lens to see his entire view on a subject. Not exactly a fair way to view somebody, is it?
    It could also be that he mis-read it and therefore ended up misinterpreting it. Slow down on the "I think you're projecting" stuff.

    zerzhul on
    86diUMN.png5OEMupX.png
    Cambiata
  • romangororomangoro Registered User regular
    For me the best thing on this episode is when Nick says "not that Scott is a troll" and you can see Grant hold a laugh because he inmediately thought what he said seconds later.

    NotaCylontapeslinger
  • NijhazerNijhazer Sunnyvale, CARegistered User regular
    I'm on Team Nick after this episode. His reasoning for selecting Tavis was what sold me: "I respect you and I know that you can do better than this if you challenge yourself". That reasoning is similar to why he said he picked Ty last time, and I heard no bullshit in his voice. Choosing other artists for elimination not for strategic reasons, but out of respect? I've gotta get behind that.

    NotaCylonmageormike
  • Patrick RenniePatrick Rennie Registered User new member
    edited March 2013
    I can't think of a single person in the entire comics industry that would be a worse judge of personal brand management issues than Scott. Sure, he's seen many, many examples of how you screw that up, but it doesn't stop him from setting new lows. I'm a big fan of his work and he can also be a really nice guy, but good lord is he high maintenance. Kick him again, Lexxy!

    Seriously gang, Scott is the opposite of an authority figure on this issue. Lexxy's feedback wasn't the only time he wasn't even in the ballpark on how you do business. If the room was uncomfortable, it was because Scott would not fold when he was faced with someone with a deeper understanding of the issue.

    On the other hand, Tavis passes audience engagement 101. Brushing off the negative voices is the first thing you are supposed to learn when you start interacting with an audience. It wasn't a real stab at winning the competition unless nobody else took the same position, but it sure as hell wasn't a losing one.

    So, yeah. I have no idea how either of them ended up getting sent to the elimination round.

    Patrick Rennie on
    HalenCambiataNotaCylon
  • Shi no TenshiShi no Tenshi Registered User new member
    zerzhul wrote: »
    It could also be that he mis-read it and therefore ended up misinterpreting it. Slow down on the "I think you're projecting" stuff.

    Sorry, wasn't trying to be that harassing in my comment, but I see what you are saying as the same thing I was saying. That when you mis-read/misinterpret, then fill in the blanks with your own logic set, that is being projecting. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you on that.

    Otherwise, I'm perfectly on board with Scott being a judge for this. The guy has went through all of this growth and done it on his own, I would imagine he'd know many pitfalls to avoid. He wouldn't have made it as far as he has, or be nearly as successful as he has, without being able to adapt and learn from mistakes he makes. I don't understand how there can be people that would say he's a horrible judge because he made mistakes; doesn't that mean he knows exactly what to look for? Didn't he in fact say that when he was judging, that he saw himself in a tweet and realizes it was a bad thing in that instance?

  • CyberJackalCyberJackal Registered User regular
    Scott was absolutely right about Lexxy. This was not an issue about being snarky or self-deprecating, or ignoring criticism vs soliciting feedback. The issue was that her responses to the critical fans were asking them how they would do it. Even if that was just to humor them, it still can create the impression that an irate minority can have an influence on the artist's work. I'm sure that was not her intention, but that's how I read it and I know I'm not alone.

  • BdonBdon Registered User regular
    I think contestants are getting trapped by still thinking of this as a fun and friendly experience instead of a competition. Tavis and Lexxy had completely respectable approaches for dealing with twitter, especially for a niche audience. It just wasn't viable for showing you are the best person here at gaining and maintaining a fanbase on the scale of Penny Arcade. How do you even solicit feedback from people with a fanbase that big? Just like there was no "nicest dude" award for Alex, there is no "most loved by their corner of the internet award" either. Not what this show is about.

    Spman2099FranklinBluthNotaCylonhotzp
  • BlueBlueBlueBlue Registered User regular
    I do think it's funny that not responding to an overreaching interview question is correct because of course it's up to you to decide what's too much and you gotta take the reigns of your own destiny etc, but when it comes to twitter not responding to vague trolling is a cop out because now the point of the challenge is to respond to something difficult anyway rather than acting as you actually would.

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  • BdonBdon Registered User regular
    I do wish the feedback and judging was more tailored to the type of comic each artist creates. I *want* snark from Mike, Jerry, and Scott. It's part of the persona I want to believe in. I don't want snark from Tom of GC or Karl of ABCC. I just want to gush over their art and cuteness. The aspect of making your twitter persona jive with your product was a bit missing. It felt more all from Scott's persona. Understandable but it would have been nice to see his vast experience colored with their individual situations instead only offering it as a static point for them to learn from.

    Cambiata
  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Mingo413 wrote: »
    Just want to point out for the people scrolling down/up and reading comments, Sejarki was using the last nega-tweet as the basis for his comment. No need to downvote!

    Thank you for pointing this out, I thought it was obvious. Though I am amused one of the Downvotes was from Levin. (Did he just fail their own challenge?)

    Looking over the full list of tweets on the spoilers page is interesting and somewhat disappointing at the same time. Some artists responded very tamely who I would have thought to do otherwise.

    Sejarki on
  • zerzhulzerzhul Registered User, Moderator mod
    I haven't seen it posted here yet
    Ten wrote: »
    Nice writeup from Scott Kurtz about his 'argument' with @Lexxy (plus her great illustration!): http://pvponline.com/news/lexxy

    86diUMN.png5OEMupX.png
    MyntMekkaBGgrecomageormike
  • GamercowGamercow Registered User regular
    One more thought on the Lexxy thing. She doesn't have a webcomic currently, and therefore doesn't have to worry about "losing readers". Her main focus, as I understand it, is commissions, art projects, and the like. More business-y than webcomics, where you present an idea to the client, they give feedback, and you change the product, and iterate until both sides are happy. Webcomics are more personal, and it is someone telling a story, and projecting, as Scott said, their brand. It kind of clicked for me that this could very well be the reason why Lexxy did what she did and said what she said. From a business/commission standpoint, her statements, tweets, and responses totally made sense.

    AvrahamNotaCylonMontyRohdemageormike
  • enderandrewenderandrew Registered User regular
    @CYBERJACKAL - The first question that started the argument between Scott and Lexxy was on stereotypes.

    Let's say as a male writer, someone takes exception to how I write female characters. All I see is a brief tweet that my female characters are falling into stereotypes.

    I absolutely would engage that reader/fan to see if there is some legitimacy to the criticism because it is easy for a writer to fall into tropes without realizing it. If the response from the fan turns out to be a troll, then screw them. But if they respond with meaningful criticism, then maybe it is something that should be taken to heart.

    As gamers, how many of us were outraged by the endings of Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3? People were furious that the game designers hadn't taken fan input and opinions to heart enough.

    Obviously, you get fans by doing your own thing well. And you can't please everyone. But outside perspective is important to get from time to time. If you shun all outside criticism, you never grow.

    NotaCylon
  • GojiraXGojiraX Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    This challenge was weird. The whole thing felt a little forced this time, perhaps because there was no real context to the tweets (i.e. no con, no web-comic, no coffee bar, no dog to walk) so the information presented wasn't really enough to construct a meaningful response, thus in the end it all amounted to troll control.

    With that in mind, I don't really understand what got into Lexxy. They did present Scott as a judge and not a debate leader.

    GojiraX on
    duddles
  • MyntMynt Registered User, Strip Search regular
    Hmmm... Looks like all that time I spend on twitter actually was worth something! Seriously... The hardest part of that challenge was having to hand write 5 tweets. :P

    GojiraXWanderlustKid_AlexTavismaidenNotaCylon
  • enderandrewenderandrew Registered User regular
    Scott's post on the subject really is interesting.

    http://pvponline.com/news/lexxy

    Ggrecomageormike
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