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Strip Search - You Are Your Brand

1235

Posts

  • DevoninDevonin Registered User regular
    Fyndir wrote: »
    I think it's pretty clear they're referring to "he" "him" "his" etc. Pretty sure the dog park tweet at least contained a couple of those.

    I'd think it's most likely, given what Kurtz said as he was introducing the tweets, that they were all tweets that either he or possibly Mike and Jerry had actually received. IE: Those were direct quotes and not written from scratch for the competition.

    Using 'they' or 'he or she' would have made the impact of the harsher tweets less, in my opinion, than the chance that one of the female contestants would get upset that they said 'he'

  • JayeEmmJayeEmm Registered User regular
    I have no problem with Lexxy explaining the reasons for her own tweets at all - what sort of irritated me here was that she first interrupted the discussion of Abby's tweets, and then when Scott mentioned that he liked Katie's, she sort of backhandedly ripped on what Katie wrote. Ok to reply to feedback on your own stuff when it's your turn - but not fair to interject in, or rip on other people's feedback IMO.

    And not for nothing but if Scott Kurtz was in earshot of me giving anyone advice on life as a webcomic, I'd shut up and listen whether I agreed or not.

    Of course I say this as someone who has a really hard time keeping my mouth shut when I feel like I have a point to make - so I get where she was coming from to an extent. But - time and place. This wasn't it.

    Bucho
  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    I don't think the issue was whether Lexxy should have defender her choices, it was a) the manner she did it (covered by others, particularly @Jayeemm did a good summary below) and b) that she doesn't even have a product out yet and she's telling someone who has been doing this professionally for 15 years that she is right and he is wrong.

    Now, granted, this was about a secondary part of the job (the "brand"), but Kurtz has 42K followers (which probably means about 30K are real), once you start getting into those numbers, you can't possibly start having email conversations about subjective topics like Lexxy was proposing. You will end up spending all your time engaging in with the vocal 1% who are irrational and want nothing more than to waste your time. Might as well start putting your comic (or any art for that matter) in front of focus groups at that point.

    You can answer people without being a DB, but once you gain any measure of celebrity, engaging everyone in conversation who disagrees with something you did (or something they perceive you did) is a losing proposition.

  • dtgdtgdtgdtgdtgdtg Registered User regular
    The new poll says we are a quarter of the way through the season so, in an effort to get a taste of what's to come, I re-familiarized myself with the behind the scenes infographic that was posted before episode 1. (http://penny-arcade.com/strip-search/news-post/the-lesser-known-facts-of-making-a-reality-game-show)

    By my count, we've still got...
    105 Pineapples to find
    Something involving water beyond the Duck tour, because they said they used 26 condoms for waterproofing microphones
    A Hazmat-related relocation
    Some drama involving a line cook
    2 Speeding tickets and
    5 more people to see cry (if they are counting Amy's crying after winning the tablet with Erika)

    I can't wait!

  • tbugtbug Registered User regular
    There were a lot of pineapples on that cushion just before the 20:00 mark. Does that count as one, or do each of those count individually?

    Wasn't it raining on Duck Day? Some of the waterproofing might have been necessary then.

  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    For those of you who haven't been on duck tours (there are two competing duck tours in Wisconsin Dells and I've been on both a couple times each), depending on how fast the driver goes into the water, those on the outside seats can very easily end up wet. Waterproofing microphones for that is a good idea; you don't know how rowdy the driver may be feeling that day.

    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X The woods are lovely dark and deepRegistered User regular
    So according to the quarter through poll,
    Tavis

    is the favourite to win, huh?

    Interesting!

    My money is on Amy.

    And miles to go before I sleep.
    THESPOOKYmcp
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    makitori has been kidnapped by spool32 and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    You got a problem?
    I'll SOLVE it
    Dispense BANS and ADVICE
    while the DJ revolves it
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    I think that on the site that gave us the Dickwolves and Fruit Fucker, we probably have a clear idea how the creators feel about responding to fan complaints. Kurtz's opinions seem to fall right in line with the way PA itself is run, and I think that puts Lexxy's opinion somewhat outside the circle.

    spool32 on
  • deltax20adeltax20a This Guy ConnecticutRegistered User regular
    Late on the response because I just saw this today, but for what it's worth:

    My first question I thought of while watching this, is how many artists have worked a customer service or support job, or marketing, or sales, or any job that involves customer interaction? I think that is an important role to work in if you are going to be an artist, because selling or supporting a product is similar to selling and supporting your ideas, they go hand-in-hand. What you draw and post, what you push to the public, you have to be able to handle those who have an issue with it, or do not plain like it. It's been my professional experience, that those who worked in service-sector jobs, were much better equipped to handle customer complaints with a higher ratio of retention. Too many times I had L1 techs come to me and ask me to handle a bad customer because they did not know how to. It's troublesome, but it's not impossible. In that respect, I had to disagree with Scott's notion that some of those responses should not be responded to, because no matter what, these people are your customers, and the word of mouth is especially powerful in today's internet age. I did agree though that Lexxy kind of overdid some of her responses. It's a fine line. Sometimes, the simplest response is "I apologize for the inconvenience".

    Overall though, this was an excellent challenge that only Scott could do, and it opened up the remaining artists' character quite a bit, I was having trouble really separating their personalities from a single "hive-mind", but now I'm starting to see who is who. If PA ever does a second season of this, I would consider trying the Top Shot approach and dividing them into teams and showing more individual interactions amongst the team, I think it would help viewers establish an idea of who these people are, especially if you are not well-versed in the webcomic "scene" and only see faces, like I do.

  • escape908escape908 Engineer Westbury, NYRegistered User regular
    Oh noes, Lexxy! :O Seems like she earned her place in the elimination though. I felt like Tavis got a raw deal, and I'm surprised that more people aren't "playing the game." It seems like people are afraid to upset anyone and strategically eliminate people at this point. Hopefully that will change. The trend has been for the group to go along with whatever is set out by the hosts/judges. I noticed on the blind drawing challenge that the first group set the tone for how all of the other groups would compete. There's a lot of maybe peer pressure or group conformity going on for a bunch of creative artists.

  • gamewispgamewisp Nashville, TNRegistered User regular
    It is unfortunate that she decided to really just go crazy with over analyzing things, but I do think that it is ok to stand your ground in general. However, Strip Search is about feedback from professionals to folks who are trying to make comic-ing into career.

    I do think it would be best to listen in this case. It's hard in Lexxy's case because she has experience in this already, so I can see how it would be hard to go against what you have already done IRL for cases like this.

    Michael Anderson
    Current project: GameWisp: cloud backup for PC Game content, plus a social network for sharing game saves.
    http://gamewisp.com
  • ElbasunuElbasunu Registered User regular
    Fyndir wrote: »
    Nijhazer wrote: »
    petebuc wrote: »
    The first is the way that the show seems increasingly to be about educating the artists about the business side of comics. But in order for this education to be useful, it has to recognize that webcomic artists are different. This was rather painfully evident here in the fact that the tweets use the masculine pronoun, even in the spoilers section, where it seems downright odd to have Monica, Erika, and the gang responding to tweets that were obviously not written with them in mind.

    A few people have said something like this and I can only assume that they're referring to the lack of any tweets calling the artist a whore or some such. There was nothing inherently masculine about the tweets that were selected.

    I think it's pretty clear they're referring to "he" "him" "his" etc. Pretty sure the dog park tweet at least contained a couple of those.

    That's because these are tweets that scott received, or are very similar to them.

    The "him" or "her" in these tweets is completely irrelevant, though. These are tweets anyone could have gotten.

    As for the business side of comics:

    It. Is. Important.

    More than anyone can really understand until you do it. Everyone has something they are good at, but being able to take that something and monetize it? It is the HARDEST. Most webcomics are one man shows that find the artists wearing a lot of hats: Accounting, Marketing, Drawing, Writing, Coding, PR.

    I wouldn't be surprised if an upcomming episode is about fixing/creating a website and putting it online in a certain time period. This stuff is important.

    g1xfUKU.png?10zfegkyoor3b.png
    Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    gamewisp has been kidnapped by spool32 and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    I make my money through ONOMONOPEIA!
    I drink that shit up like fresh sangria
    Is that enough to FILL YA?
    Now quiet you’re interrupting my animes.
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • RaphDSRaphDS Registered User regular
    I do agree with both Lexxy and Tavis. The "don't feed the trolls" school of web etiquette is very applicable and actually the right way to go. I suppose the question I have is "are we judging them because it's a game, and so we have to see who 'plays' best?" or is it more of "we judge this way because we have different/higher/new standards for a public figure/webcomic artist"?

  • pariah164pariah164 Registered User regular
    Yay, Katie is safe! YOU GO KATIE!

    escape908
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    NotaCylon has been kidnapped by Gosling and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    What do you call one mod yelling in a cave?
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    pariah164 has been kidnapped by Product Placement and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    DIRECTION is my moniker
    A easy form of ID
    GENDER is another barometer
    To know it's truly me
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    escape908 has been kidnapped by Anialos and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    My name is something you’d find near toilets
    But that’s nothing compared to the shit I deal with
    For a brief stint, I tried adoption
    But the kid I got turned out to be rotten
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    deltax20a has been kidnapped by Gosling and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    I am excitable and passionate
    always looking for fun
    Although you may not see it
    I'm an APE in more ways than one
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • pariah164pariah164 Registered User regular
    Kidnapped? Really?

    HATE this holiday.

  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    MichyGeary has been kidnapped by Cambiata and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    Do I really have to STRIP for this job?
    XXX rated is one too many for me!
    A beemer is nice, but I’d really like a…
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    tbug has been kidnapped by Gosling and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    Munkus is an IMPOSTOR!
    I'm the true RODENT of esteem
    You could also say I foster
    a deep love affair with STEAM
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
    FloydHereNow
  • FloydHereNowFloydHereNow Registered User regular
    Really liked this challenge. I think a good response to Lexxy's exhaustive defense of her twitter style would have been to simply repeat the first point Scott made:

    That when you're a creative artist, your brand is YOU.

    When you start asking "what do you want?" you lose that brand identity. You can't ask open-ended questions like some Fortune-500 market researcher. Going down that path leads to mediocrity, and ultimately doesn't work anyway, because you literally cannot please everybody.

    Artists who are successful seem to be those who consistently create stuff that THEY think is cool/funny/interesting, and spread it around as widely as possible so that their audience of like-minded people can find them. Unless you're some kind of freak of nature, there are probably a lot of people who think like you. These become your champions, advocates, and fans.

    People can't tell you what to create. You have to create stuff, put it in front of people, and THEN they'll tell you if they like it.

  • TinklesTinkles YAY! Never Past Bedtime LandRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    FloydHereNow has been kidnapped by spool32 and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!

    I’m on your SIX like an AIRPLANE PILOT
    I’m the FASTEST there is, best not try it
    It’s not about the ending, it’s about the JOURNEY
    Isn’t that nice? Wait til you get to know me!
    Which forumer am I?

    1gVsb9o.png
  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    So according to the quarter through poll,
    Tavis

    is the favourite to win, huh?

    From earlier in the week the poll read entirely differently. Looks like it's been tampered with.

  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    When you start asking "what do you want?" you lose that brand identity. You can't ask open-ended questions like some Fortune-500 market researcher. Going down that path leads to mediocrity, and ultimately doesn't work anyway, because you literally cannot please everybody.

    I really disagree with this. I don't understand the vilification of an individual's assessment. Listening to feedback comes with no obligation to follow it. Agreeing with feedback does not somehow nullify someone's artistic voice. And claiming that asking for outside input is wrong would imply that anything done in collaboration sacrifices artistic merit.

    Sejarki on
    Cambiatafoo
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Sejarki wrote: »
    When you start asking "what do you want?" you lose that brand identity. You can't ask open-ended questions like some Fortune-500 market researcher. Going down that path leads to mediocrity, and ultimately doesn't work anyway, because you literally cannot please everybody.

    I really disagree with this. I don't understand the vilification of an individual's assessment. Listening to feedback comes with no obligation to follow it. Agreeing with feedback does not somehow nullify someone's artistic voice. And claiming that asking for outside input is wrong would imply that anything done in collaboration sacrifices artistic merit.

    Disagree across the board. In the public medium, asking for feedback leaves you two options:

    1) follow
    2) ignore

    Choosing 1 creates the perception that your readers are in charge of your content based on how they feel about it, and the only time you want your readers in charge of your content is when you've asked them on your own terms. Choosing 2 could've been done without the extra effort of asking. So, neither one is a really good option.

    Art done in collaboration is not the same as asking for and bending to reader opinions & pressure. It's also agreed-upon beforehand.

  • ElbasunuElbasunu Registered User regular
    Sejarki wrote: »
    When you start asking "what do you want?" you lose that brand identity. You can't ask open-ended questions like some Fortune-500 market researcher. Going down that path leads to mediocrity, and ultimately doesn't work anyway, because you literally cannot please everybody.

    I really disagree with this. I don't understand the vilification of an individual's assessment. Listening to feedback comes with no obligation to follow it. Agreeing with feedback does not somehow nullify someone's artistic voice. And claiming that asking for outside input is wrong would imply that anything done in collaboration sacrifices artistic merit.

    What matters is where the feedback is coming from. This is the key. If a peer in the field, or someone you know has thoughts on your work, or your upcomming project, then by all means LISTEN.

    A single upset twitter user? Move on.

    g1xfUKU.png?10zfegkyoor3b.png
    Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
  • PeterBmanPeterBman Registered User regular
    Sejarki wrote: »
    From earlier in the week the poll read entirely differently. Looks like it's been tampered with.

    Yeah, no kidding. Check out the results of the previous poll as well. Tavis "won" that one by almost a thousand votes. Something doesn't compute.

  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    Elbasunu wrote: »
    What matters is where the feedback is coming from. This is the key. If a peer in the field, or someone you know has thoughts on your work, or your upcomming project, then by all means LISTEN.

    A single upset twitter user? Move on.

    What if it's an enthusiastic fan? Listen or move on?

  • DevoninDevonin Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Enthusiastic fans don't say that your mistake has cost you a viewer, or that you're a sadsack mofo.

    Also enthusiastic fans rarely tell you to change what you're doing. That's why they are fans: They like what you're doing.

    Devonin on
    Elbasunu
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Man, what? I see enthusiastic fans with helpful criticism all the time. Certainly their enthusiasm gives their criticism a really positive spin "You are the greatest cartoonist that ever lived! However though I really hate to say it..."

    In any case, I am unilaterally opposed to the idea that artists need to cut themselves off from all criticism. Look how that worked out for Casey Hudson, ya'll.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Actually the definitive example of "artist who refuses to listen to any voice but his own" is George Lucas. No artist should want to be George Lucas.

  • SejarkiSejarki Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Devonin wrote: »
    That's why they are fans: They like what you're doing.

    Or they like what you have done in the past. It's possible to be a fan of some of an artist's work without being a fan of everything they'll ever do. Fans are often some of the harshest critics.

    Hell, these threads are often full of criticisms about the layout of Strip Search. If the next season doesn't continue with the format of having the competition winners pick those up for elimination, does that mean the producers have suddenly allowed the entire show to be dictated by the fans?

    Sejarki on
    Cambiata
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Actually the definitive example of "artist who refuses to listen to any voice but his own" is George Lucas. No artist should want to be George Lucas.

    Or Andy Warhol.

    Or Bob Dylan.

    This game could go on on a while, @Cambiata!

    Tinkles
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Geth stays true to his own vision. :bz

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Sejarki wrote: »
    Devonin wrote: »
    That's why they are fans: They like what you're doing.

    Or they like what you have done in the past. It's possible to be a fan of some of an artist's work without being a fan of everything they'll ever do. Fans are often some of the harshest critics.

    Hell, these threads are often full of criticisms about the layout of Strip Search. If the next season doesn't continue with the format of having the competition winners pick those up for elimination, does that mean the producers have suddenly allowed the entire show to be dictated by the fans?

    It's more complicated than that. Whether or not they decide to do it, if they respond to the criticism with a request to elaborate, and then make a change, it'll be perceived as a change based on demands from the community.

    That could be good or bad press, but either way it impacts perception of the brand and creates a larger sense of entitlement among those who demanded, and got, the change they wanted.

    Elbasunu
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    For every Andy Warhol there's a Mr. Brainwash

    Personally I think the idea that real artists never, ever listen to outside criticism is more of a myth than anything else. Great artists perhaps know which pieces of criticsm are best ignored, but no one creates in a vacuum.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Sejarki wrote: »
    Devonin wrote: »
    That's why they are fans: They like what you're doing.

    Or they like what you have done in the past. It's possible to be a fan of some of an artist's work without being a fan of everything they'll ever do. Fans are often some of the harshest critics.

    Hell, these threads are often full of criticisms about the layout of Strip Search. If the next season doesn't continue with the format of having the competition winners pick those up for elimination, does that mean the producers have suddenly allowed the entire show to be dictated by the fans?

    It's more complicated than that. Whether or not they decide to do it, if they respond to the criticism with a request to elaborate, and then make a change, it'll be perceived as a change based on demands from the community.

    That could be good or bad press, but either way it impacts perception of the brand and creates a larger sense of entitlement among those who demanded, and got, the change they wanted.

    So then what you're saying is that artists should be at the mercy of their fans, in the sense that they'd better always do the opposite of what the fans want or "bad press."

    Or maybe artists can, I dunno, listen to criticism and react in a way that's honest for them. Just a thought.

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