Captain ElevenThe last card is a kronkRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
I think Booker casually grinding up guys' faces with the skyhook says something about what kind of person he is. He is not a person you'd invite to tea with the queen.
Captain Eleven on
+4
minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
To the writers' credit, she is clearly disgusted and scared when she initially sees you killing people. She just quickly comes to terms with it as a necessity to escape her lifetime of imprisonment and torture, which I think is justifiable.
Everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
+1
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
It's just difficult to maintain a narrative with Comstock and Fitzroy being super evil murderers when you've killed more people than both of them put together.
I think Booker casually grinding up guy's faces with the skyhook says something about what kind of person he is. He is not a person you'd invite to tea with the queen.
There is no question that Booker is a real shitheel. Not as much so as Comstock, but still, a giant selfish asshole. Some people just can't reconcile the PC in a game being such a piece of shit.
Everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
+2
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
To the writers' credit, she is clearly disgusted and scared when she initially sees you killing people. She just quickly comes to terms with it as a necessity to escape her lifetime of imprisonment and torture, which I think is justifiable.
I'm not that terribly far in the story, but I haven't ever really gotten the feeling that she's come to terms with the violence around her. She quips "is it over?" in a way that doesn't speak to me that she was concerned for her safety, she says it in a way that "is the bloodshed over?" This is reinforced by the way that she hides, she never watches the battle, in fact, most of the time, when I'm looking at her, she's behind some crates with her back to the action and a very un-joyful look on her face. AGain, this may change as I progress.
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+1
minor incidentexpert in a dying fieldnjRegistered Userregular
It's just difficult to maintain a narrative with Comstock and Fitzroy being super evil murderers when you've killed more people than both of them put together.
I actually liked Fitzroy's arc.
She's kind of tragic. Basically a slave, framed for murder, turned into a figurehead for rebellion, and it all goes to her head and she becomes worse than her former oppressors.
Everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
I need explanation on something else, MAJOR SPOILER for roughly 3/4 length story stuff
What timeline/multiverse are you in with the creepy Washington-masked guys and their little puppet master with the bugles on his head? That was hands down one of the creepiest moments in my entire gaming life, especially after pulling that lever in the Warden's office. I never jump but I almost quit the fucking game after that section
Like what was the reasoning behind that stuff and those characters? There was little explanation or maybe I missed some voxophones or something.
Have you gotten to the end of that section yet? If not, don't read on.
They're created by Evil!Broken Elizabeth in the bad 1983 future. In that timeline, you get killed every time you try to save Elizabeth and she's denied that knowledge, so she thinks you abandoned her, goes crazy, and decides that free will is The Problem. So she turns Comstock House into a horrible "rehabilitation" clinic and those people are representative of what she does to anyone who opposes or defies her. She murders their alternate universe selves multiple times (note how they all have that weird oscillation which happens when someone's reconciling two timelines) and does other terrible things to them until they're rendered both insane and utterly loyal to her. The Boys of Silence? I'm not sure how she MADE them, but they're her fault and they're a key to controlling the washington-faced people.
Basically that entire timeline is creepy as hell.
Re: Violence, I think the game is MEANT to make you question the horrible war crimes you're committing on everyone. You're SUPPOSED to go "Wow uh, I just killed a dude. I'm not sure how to feel about this." And I think that dumbing down or making the violence less evident wouldn't have served that purpose. It also serves to show what a raging douchecanoe Booker is. Even if you play him at his kindest he's kind of a giant dickwad.
Aside, re: pendant...
I can't remember if it was in this thread or in an IRL discussion I had yesterday, but someone pointed out that choosing the Bird pendant ISN'T kindness in Elizabeth's case. Note that the Cage is empty for one thing, and for another, the Bird is the Songbird... in other words, her captor and prisoner. Meanwhile, the Cage is CAGE, the tune used to control the bird and ultimately set her free.
Don't you feel like a dick now for picking the bird (I know I do)
To the writers' credit, she is clearly disgusted and scared when she initially sees you killing people. She just quickly comes to terms with it as a necessity to escape her lifetime of imprisonment and torture, which I think is justifiable.
I'm not that terribly far in the story, but I haven't ever really gotten the feeling that she's come to terms with the violence around her. She quips "is it over?" in a way that doesn't speak to me that she was concerned for her safety, she says it in a way that "is the bloodshed over?" This is reinforced by the way that she hides, she never watches the battle, in fact, most of the time, when I'm looking at her, she's behind some crates with her back to the action and a very un-joyful look on her face. AGain, this may change as I progress.
I agree, actually. She accepts that it's got to happen, but is never fully comfortable about it.
Everything looks beautiful when you're young and pretty
To the writers' credit, she is clearly disgusted and scared when she initially sees you killing people. She just quickly comes to terms with it as a necessity to escape her lifetime of imprisonment and torture, which I think is justifiable.
I'm not that terribly far in the story, but I haven't ever really gotten the feeling that she's come to terms with the violence around her. She quips "is it over?" in a way that doesn't speak to me that she was concerned for her safety, she says it in a way that "is the bloodshed over?" This is reinforced by the way that she hides, she never watches the battle, in fact, most of the time, when I'm looking at her, she's behind some crates with her back to the action and a very un-joyful look on her face. AGain, this may change as I progress.
I agree, actually. She accepts that it's got to happen, but is never fully comfortable about it.
Would you want her to be?
I mean, yes, there's the survivalists out there who are comfortable with "do what you need to" and feel the need to harden the folks around them. I'm more concerned with the preservation of innocence. People don't need to be hardened, it's much tougher and riskier to be a soft human being. You'll get taken advantage off, stolen from, possibly (probably) murdered, but, in the end you'll have your humanity intact. Not being faced with particularly horrid situations I have the freedom to wax poetic, but my philosophy is that it's better to die early with your humanity intact, than to survive for a long time as a hardened and feral humanoid. The Walking Dead is a show I love watching specifically for that, because, you know what? I'd be one of the first to go, I'm not willing to do what's needed to be done for survival's sake. Still, we can all have all kinds of philosophies and ride our white horses, but we must recognize that all of that is subject to instantaneous change once we're staring down the barrel of a cocked gun.
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Nah, it's just a fad. Questioning violence in video games is the Thing To Do This Year, according to Serious Game People (TM).
I entirely disagree.
I think you've missed something -- How human beings deal with violence was a core theme in the game. And I think the player was supposed to be bothered by it; that was a thematic choice by the developers.
A spoiler-filled analysis follows:
Zachary Comstock publicly preaches a message that violence can be used to cleanse the sinner from the earth. This is a common religious message, as the game points out: According to each Abarahamic religion, God cleansed the world of all sinners by destroying it with a flood, save a few select individuals. According to both Islam and Christianity, which are eschatological faiths (i.e., concerned with the end of the world), the world will undergo a final violent cleansing once again just before the end.
Privately, Comstock uses violence as a tool to remove individuals who have leverage over him.
Diasy Fizroy sees violence as a way of washing away the oppressors so the oppressed can start anew. Like Comstock's message, this absolutely has grounding the real world.
Slate sees violence as a path to glory. He commands his men to fight the player (as Booker) because he believes that he can give them a worthy, honorable death.
Elizabeth abhors violence initially, but slowly comes around to seeing it as a necessary tool in some cases (thanks to Booker). We're told that if left unchecked, she eventually comes to believe Comstock's message about the cleansing power of violence.
Booker DeWitt, at the point the player finds him, is a man broken by the violence in his life. He's ashamed of the things he's done, and yet continues doing them, for some reason. He wants redemption, but doesn't think it will ever find him... until Elizabeth comes along and gives him the chance.
--
On top of all of the above, you have a game where the player is asked to do extremely severe violence: Executions are incredibly violent. Many of the vigors are horrifying and would probably be banned in real war.
I think the game is asking us to think about that. I think the game wants us to feel conflicted about what we're doing, just as learn how Booker has been conflicted all his life.
+4
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Nah, it's just a fad. Questioning violence in video games is the Thing To Do This Year, according to Serious Game People (TM).
I entirely disagree.
I think you've missed something -- How human beings deal with violence was a core theme in the game. And I think the player was supposed to be bothered by it; that was a thematic choice by the developers.
A spoiler-filled analysis follows:
Zachary Comstock publicly preaches a message that violence can be used to cleanse the sinner from the earth. This is a common religious message, as the game points out: According to each Abarahamic religion, God cleansed the world of all sinners by destroying it with a flood, save a few select individuals. According to both Islam and Christianity, which are eschatological faiths (i.e., concerned with the end of the world), the world will undergo a final violent cleansing once again just before the end.
Privately, Comstock uses violence as a tool to remove individuals who have leverage over him.
Diasy Fizroy sees violence as a way of washing away the oppressors so the oppressed can start anew. Like Comstock's message, this absolutely has grounding the real world.
Slate sees violence as a path to glory. He commands his men to fight the player (as Booker) because he believes that he can give them a worthy, honorable death.
Elizabeth abhors violence initially, but slowly comes around to seeing it as a necessary tool in some cases (thanks to Booker). We're told that if left unchecked, she eventually comes to believe Comstock's message about the cleansing power of violence.
Booker DeWitt, at the point the player finds him, is a man broken by the violence in his life. He's ashamed of the things he's done, and yet continues doing them, for some reason. He wants redemption, but doesn't think it will ever find him... until Elizabeth comes along and gives him the chance.
--
On top of all of the above, you have a game where the player is asked to do extremely severe violence: Executions are incredibly violent. Many of the vigors are horrifying and would probably be banned in real war.
I think the game is asking us to think about that. I think the game wants us to feel conflicted about what we're doing, just as learn how Booker has been conflicted all his life.
You know, now that you've mentioned it, I see how the Vigors are absolutely torture-devices, rather than actual utilitarian increases to quality of life. In Bioshock 1, the flame thing was advertised as a convenient way to light a cigarette, in this game, it's advertised as a convenient way to turn your enemies into charred corpses. There is no Vigor (so far) that doesn't cause extreme duress to the victim, even the somewhat-benign Possession Vigor eventually gets upgraded to giving the target an irresistable urge to kill themselves. The whole game is steeped with violence, which, then, brings to light their decision to take away our option of doing things non-lethally, which we somewhat could in the first Bioshock. I mean you still had to kill, but you could easily stealth around and minimize the amount of death that you sewed in Rapture.
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It's probably already been mentioned but a cool little thing I noticed on my second playthrough.
When you look through the first set of binoculars you can see the Lutece's down below you but they're gone when you're not looking through the binoculars.
+1
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
I really wouldn't put Booker on the level of Fitzroy and Comstock.
First of all, he doesn't actively seek out the fights he gets into, and he doesn't have other people do his dirty work. Also realize that the two of them have been waging a war in Columbia for months before you arrive, so you have no idea how many deaths they are responsible for.
It may not seem like a large distinction, but doing the nasty things yourself is much more ethical than getting other people to do those nasty things for you. That would be the moral high ground Booker has that allows him to judge both antagonists.
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But, he
A. Doesn't think hes a good person
B. The people he kills (during the game) are generally people also trying to murder him.
He doesn't think he is good, but he is:
1. Killing out of necessity is not evil. Think of this: The goal is to get Elizabeth out of Columbia. Who is stopping him? People with guns. Would he be killing these people if they let him leave? No. He fought in wars. He is not murdering innocent civilians, although he did in the wounded knee massacre? I'm not justifying war as being good, but it doesn't make him evil.
2. When Elizabeth vows to kill Comstock, Booker tries to do the right thing by stating that he will do it for her, becuase he knows what it's like to kill a man and doesn't want her to have that blood on her hands. He could've just said no and dragged her kicking and screaming to New York.
Robes on
"Wait" he says... do I look like a waiter?
+1
EvilBadmanDO NOT TRUST THIS MANRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
I don't know if anyone figured this minor name nod out yet, but:
Lutèce is the French form of Lutetia, the Roman city where Paris now stands.
Who's the dead guy in the lighthouse?
After Booker is dropped off by the Luteces, he finds a dead man tied to a chair. He has a pillowcase pulled over his head, and appears to have been executed. It's clearly the work of a professional, and not just a random murder. On the floor below, a note signed 'C' is pinned to a map charting Columbia's movements: 'Be prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him.'
The note was left by Comstock. He knew Booker, the 'False Shepherd', was on his way to Columbia, and instructed the lighthouse keeper (or an assassin posing as one) to stop him reaching the rocket. But the Luteces got there first and killed him, because they didn't want him interfering with their plans. Why was he killed so violently, though? And left out on display with a sign saying 'Don't disappoint us' hung around his neck? To show Booker that his employers mean business, and not bringing them Elizabeth would have similarly gruesome consequences.
It makes sense that the note was left by Comstock. But I don't think there's any evidence that the Luteces killed him. It seems out of character for the them -- I don't believe that they've killed anyone, ever, themselves.
I don't see how anyone could have not thrown the baseball at the couple. Remember when he lands in the chapel in the very beginning, and he asks the attendant, "Where am I?" He gets his cryptic answer, then proceeds to mumble to himself "Better not ask any questions unless I want to get made."
To me, though grudgingly, I threw the ball at the couple because I had to avoid capture. I didn't know what was going to come next, so I had to appear to be among the populace in their fervent belief of Racial Purity. If I hadn't, these people, who see no shades of grey, would automatically lump me in with Vox Populi and then I'd be screwed. Plus, throwing a baseball at Fink is unimaginable, Fink is a legend in Columbia. So yes, while I personally want to bean Fink, I have to keep up pretenses if I'm going to get closer to Elizabeth.
Also, noticed on my second playthrough now that at the beginning, Elizabeth clobbers you with Homer's Odyssey, and then presumably Lutece's works on Quantum Mechanics (As Dirac would not write the 1st Principles of Quantum Mechanics until the 30's). I think I'd be utterly proud of myself to be nailed with a copy of Quantum Mechanics by a pretty woman. I mean, you know that girl is a winner. Ha. *Edit:* Just watched a Youtube video of meeting Elizabeth, holy shit, the version of Quant she uses *is* Rosalind's, ha.
Also, I'm tentatively waiting for a fanfic revolving around Elizabeth's natural talent for portals to be used in Chell's emancipation and final confrontation with GlaDOS.
Also, I'm tentatively waiting for a fanfic revolving around Elizabeth's natural talent for portals to be used in Chell's emancipation and final confrontation with GlaDOS.
Oh my god.
+1
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
I don't see how anyone could have not thrown the baseball at the couple. Remember when he lands in the chapel in the very beginning, and he asks the attendant, "Where am I?" He gets his cryptic answer, then proceeds to mumble to himself "Better not ask any questions unless I want to get made."
To me, though grudgingly, I threw the ball at the couple because I had to avoid capture. I didn't know what was going to come next, so I had to appear to be among the populace in their fervent belief of Racial Purity. If I hadn't, these people, who see no shades of grey, would automatically lump me in with Vox Populi and then I'd be screwed. Plus, throwing a baseball at Fink is unimaginable, Fink is a legend in Columbia. So yes, while I personally want to bean Fink, I have to keep up pretenses if I'm going to get closer to Elizabeth.
Also, noticed on my second playthrough now that at the beginning, Elizabeth clobbers you with Homer's Odyssey, and then presumably Lutece's works on Quantum Mechanics (As Dirac would not write the 1st Principles of Quantum Mechanics until the 30's). I think I'd be utterly proud of myself to be nailed with a copy of Quantum Mechanics by a pretty woman. I mean, you know that girl is a winner. Ha. *Edit:* Just watched a Youtube video of meeting Elizabeth, holy shit, the version of Quant she uses *is* Rosalind's, ha.
Also, I'm tentatively waiting for a fanfic revolving around Elizabeth's natural talent for portals to be used in Chell's emancipation and final confrontation with GlaDOS.
I found I couldn't not do it (I had to throw it at Fink). Like, everything about Columbia up to that point is giving me the "this place is pretty weird" vibe and then I found myself in a crowd of people about to stone a couple to death.
Fuck those people. I didn't feel bad about what I did to the cops after either.
Finished the game on 1999 mode, and I actually enjoyed how the higher difficulty emphasized tactically approaching fights and using the rights vigors at the right times. It didn't mean sitting in cover all the time, but it did mean you really needed to use everything around to your advantage.
Kind of bummed the game's over, even after playing through it twice in rapid succession. It'll be interesting to see what they'll do with DLC.
Yup fuck those people. I'm not about to go through this game peacefully in any case so there's no point in delaying the inevitable. And as a bonus,
I'm not throwing a baseball at two innocent people.
You could look at it from a purely immersed way. For example, let's say you're not the Savior of the World. You're Joe Everyman, when you throw a baseball at Fink, you don't get to heroically slaughter cops, you are, right there and then, taken, chained, bound, and then probably flayed to death...would you be willing to do that when you know that the end result would be torturous death? Spoilered or not, we all came into the game with the knowledge that we are not going to be just somebody, we are going to be a really Big Somebody...after all, it's a game, that's what we are in all games.
What would you do if faced with a real-world scenario like that? Would you be willing to die for your beliefs?
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
Yup fuck those people. I'm not about to go through this game peacefully in any case so there's no point in delaying the inevitable. And as a bonus,
I'm not throwing a baseball at two innocent people.
You could look at it from a purely immersed way. For example, let's say you're not the Savior of the World. You're Joe Everyman, when you throw a baseball at Fink, you don't get to heroically slaughter cops, you are, right there and then, taken, chained, bound, and then probably flayed to death...would you be willing to do that when you know that the end result would be torturous death? Spoilered or not, we all came into the game with the knowledge that we are not going to be just somebody, we are going to be a really Big Somebody...after all, it's a game, that's what we are in all games.
What would you do if faced with a real-world scenario like that? Would you be willing to die for your beliefs?
I don't find the game immersive enough that that question entered my mind while playing.
I mean, hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't move to a floating city full of racists or enter a raffle where the prize is getting to hurt people. I'd probably drop the ball and leave, and that would be pretty boring.
0
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
Yup fuck those people. I'm not about to go through this game peacefully in any case so there's no point in delaying the inevitable. And as a bonus,
I'm not throwing a baseball at two innocent people.
You could look at it from a purely immersed way. For example, let's say you're not the Savior of the World. You're Joe Everyman, when you throw a baseball at Fink, you don't get to heroically slaughter cops, you are, right there and then, taken, chained, bound, and then probably flayed to death...would you be willing to do that when you know that the end result would be torturous death? Spoilered or not, we all came into the game with the knowledge that we are not going to be just somebody, we are going to be a really Big Somebody...after all, it's a game, that's what we are in all games.
What would you do if faced with a real-world scenario like that? Would you be willing to die for your beliefs?
I don't find the game immersive enough that that question entered my mind while playing.
I mean, hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't move to a floating city full of racists or enter a raffle where the prize is getting to hurt people. I'd probably drop the ball and leave, and that would be pretty boring.
Lol, I can see it now. Reach the light house, see bloody corpse "Fuck this shit", get back to the dock and wait for your ride.
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I think Booker casually grinding up guy's faces with the skyhook says something about what kind of person he is. He is not a person you'd invite to tea with the queen.
There is no question that Booker is a real shitheel. Not as much so as Comstock, but still, a giant selfish asshole. Some people just can't reconcile the PC in a game being such a piece of shit.
+4
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I really found it hard to decide what to do in that situation, I really did not want to throw the ball at people who didn't seem like they'd done any wrong, but I wanted to remain inconspicuous, too.
In the end I ran out of time.
I would have totally done this in a real-world situation. That or drop the ball and twenty-three-skidooooooo
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I don't see how anyone could have not thrown the baseball at the couple. Remember when he lands in the chapel in the very beginning, and he asks the attendant, "Where am I?" He gets his cryptic answer, then proceeds to mumble to himself "Better not ask any questions unless I want to get made."
To me, though grudgingly, I threw the ball at the couple because I had to avoid capture. I didn't know what was going to come next, so I had to appear to be among the populace in their fervent belief of Racial Purity. If I hadn't, these people, who see no shades of grey, would automatically lump me in with Vox Populi and then I'd be screwed. Plus, throwing a baseball at Fink is unimaginable, Fink is a legend in Columbia. So yes, while I personally want to bean Fink, I have to keep up pretenses if I'm going to get closer to Elizabeth.
Also, noticed on my second playthrough now that at the beginning, Elizabeth clobbers you with Homer's Odyssey, and then presumably Lutece's works on Quantum Mechanics (As Dirac would not write the 1st Principles of Quantum Mechanics until the 30's). I think I'd be utterly proud of myself to be nailed with a copy of Quantum Mechanics by a pretty woman. I mean, you know that girl is a winner. Ha. *Edit:* Just watched a Youtube video of meeting Elizabeth, holy shit, the version of Quant she uses *is* Rosalind's, ha.
Also, I'm tentatively waiting for a fanfic revolving around Elizabeth's natural talent for portals to be used in Chell's emancipation and final confrontation with GlaDOS.
I found I couldn't not do it (I had to throw it at Fink). Like, everything about Columbia up to that point is giving me the "this place is pretty weird" vibe and then I found myself in a crowd of people about to stone a couple to death.
Fuck those people. I didn't feel bad about what I did to the cops after either.
It was a pretty primal reaction.
Columbia represents everything I hate about America, past and present. When I reached that point, I wanted to burn the place to the ground.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
+5
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
It's just difficult to maintain a narrative with Comstock and Fitzroy being super evil murderers when you've killed more people than both of them put together.
Which leads to an interesting topic about how game mechanics often clashes with the themes and plot of the story in video games.
Chugging along in 1999 mode. I saved up my pennies and bought the two Possession upgrades (that second one is freakin' expensive!) as soon as I could. Now I'm possessing dudes every fight; I don't think I could win them without it. I don't know how I'm going to fight a Handyman in 1999 mode - I suspect they can take me from full health to dead in three hits.
Is there an easy way to go back and finish the collectable achievements? I have like ten voxcoders and telescope/kinetiscopes left to find but I have no idea which ones I do and don't already have.
Chugging along in 1999 mode. I saved up my pennies and bought the two Possession upgrades (that second one is freakin' expensive!) as soon as I could. Now I'm possessing dudes every fight; I don't think I could win them without it. I don't know how I'm going to fight a Handyman in 1999 mode - I suspect they can take me from full health to dead in three hits.
Charged upgraded possession is the best AoE in the game. It will instantly kill all humanoid targets in the area except for the one that is left mind controlled, causing all the others to mass suicide.
}
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There is no question that Booker is a real shitheel. Not as much so as Comstock, but still, a giant selfish asshole. Some people just can't reconcile the PC in a game being such a piece of shit.
I'm not that terribly far in the story, but I haven't ever really gotten the feeling that she's come to terms with the violence around her. She quips "is it over?" in a way that doesn't speak to me that she was concerned for her safety, she says it in a way that "is the bloodshed over?" This is reinforced by the way that she hides, she never watches the battle, in fact, most of the time, when I'm looking at her, she's behind some crates with her back to the action and a very un-joyful look on her face. AGain, this may change as I progress.
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I actually liked Fitzroy's arc.
Have you gotten to the end of that section yet? If not, don't read on.
Basically that entire timeline is creepy as hell.
Re: Violence, I think the game is MEANT to make you question the horrible war crimes you're committing on everyone. You're SUPPOSED to go "Wow uh, I just killed a dude. I'm not sure how to feel about this." And I think that dumbing down or making the violence less evident wouldn't have served that purpose. It also serves to show what a raging douchecanoe Booker is. Even if you play him at his kindest he's kind of a giant dickwad.
Aside, re: pendant...
Don't you feel like a dick now for picking the bird (I know I do)
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
I agree, actually. She accepts that it's got to happen, but is never fully comfortable about it.
Would you want her to be?
I mean, yes, there's the survivalists out there who are comfortable with "do what you need to" and feel the need to harden the folks around them. I'm more concerned with the preservation of innocence. People don't need to be hardened, it's much tougher and riskier to be a soft human being. You'll get taken advantage off, stolen from, possibly (probably) murdered, but, in the end you'll have your humanity intact. Not being faced with particularly horrid situations I have the freedom to wax poetic, but my philosophy is that it's better to die early with your humanity intact, than to survive for a long time as a hardened and feral humanoid. The Walking Dead is a show I love watching specifically for that, because, you know what? I'd be one of the first to go, I'm not willing to do what's needed to be done for survival's sake. Still, we can all have all kinds of philosophies and ride our white horses, but we must recognize that all of that is subject to instantaneous change once we're staring down the barrel of a cocked gun.
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I entirely disagree.
I think you've missed something -- How human beings deal with violence was a core theme in the game. And I think the player was supposed to be bothered by it; that was a thematic choice by the developers.
A spoiler-filled analysis follows:
Privately, Comstock uses violence as a tool to remove individuals who have leverage over him.
Diasy Fizroy sees violence as a way of washing away the oppressors so the oppressed can start anew. Like Comstock's message, this absolutely has grounding the real world.
Slate sees violence as a path to glory. He commands his men to fight the player (as Booker) because he believes that he can give them a worthy, honorable death.
Elizabeth abhors violence initially, but slowly comes around to seeing it as a necessary tool in some cases (thanks to Booker). We're told that if left unchecked, she eventually comes to believe Comstock's message about the cleansing power of violence.
Booker DeWitt, at the point the player finds him, is a man broken by the violence in his life. He's ashamed of the things he's done, and yet continues doing them, for some reason. He wants redemption, but doesn't think it will ever find him... until Elizabeth comes along and gives him the chance.
--
On top of all of the above, you have a game where the player is asked to do extremely severe violence: Executions are incredibly violent. Many of the vigors are horrifying and would probably be banned in real war.
I think the game is asking us to think about that. I think the game wants us to feel conflicted about what we're doing, just as learn how Booker has been conflicted all his life.
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First of all, he doesn't actively seek out the fights he gets into, and he doesn't have other people do his dirty work. Also realize that the two of them have been waging a war in Columbia for months before you arrive, so you have no idea how many deaths they are responsible for.
It may not seem like a large distinction, but doing the nasty things yourself is much more ethical than getting other people to do those nasty things for you. That would be the moral high ground Booker has that allows him to judge both antagonists.
But, he
A. Doesn't think hes a good person
B. The people he kills (during the game) are generally people also trying to murder him.
Not to mention that she frequently cries out in terror during executions!
That was pretty special.
He doesn't think he is good, but he is:
2. When Elizabeth vows to kill Comstock, Booker tries to do the right thing by stating that he will do it for her, becuase he knows what it's like to kill a man and doesn't want her to have that blood on her hands. He could've just said no and dragged her kicking and screaming to New York.
Also, this article does an AMAZING JOB of answering lingering questions.
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/bioshock-infinite-spoilers-2/
Game|Life on WIRED has another long analysis post up
Annnd today's podcast also talks about symbolism and themes (in addition to LucasArts and Roger Ebert)
if anyone's interested
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/04/gamelife-podcast-bioshock/
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Awesome.
Yeah I dunno about some of those things --
It makes sense that the note was left by Comstock. But I don't think there's any evidence that the Luteces killed him. It seems out of character for the them -- I don't believe that they've killed anyone, ever, themselves.
The rest seems spot on though.
I don't see how anyone could have not thrown the baseball at the couple. Remember when he lands in the chapel in the very beginning, and he asks the attendant, "Where am I?" He gets his cryptic answer, then proceeds to mumble to himself "Better not ask any questions unless I want to get made."
To me, though grudgingly, I threw the ball at the couple because I had to avoid capture. I didn't know what was going to come next, so I had to appear to be among the populace in their fervent belief of Racial Purity. If I hadn't, these people, who see no shades of grey, would automatically lump me in with Vox Populi and then I'd be screwed. Plus, throwing a baseball at Fink is unimaginable, Fink is a legend in Columbia. So yes, while I personally want to bean Fink, I have to keep up pretenses if I'm going to get closer to Elizabeth.
Also, noticed on my second playthrough now that at the beginning, Elizabeth clobbers you with Homer's Odyssey, and then presumably Lutece's works on Quantum Mechanics (As Dirac would not write the 1st Principles of Quantum Mechanics until the 30's). I think I'd be utterly proud of myself to be nailed with a copy of Quantum Mechanics by a pretty woman. I mean, you know that girl is a winner. Ha. *Edit:* Just watched a Youtube video of meeting Elizabeth, holy shit, the version of Quant she uses *is* Rosalind's, ha.
Also, I'm tentatively waiting for a fanfic revolving around Elizabeth's natural talent for portals to be used in Chell's emancipation and final confrontation with GlaDOS.
Oh my god.
GB is doing a livecast of the bioshock infinite ending
heavy, incredible spoilers, obviously
I found I couldn't not do it (I had to throw it at Fink). Like, everything about Columbia up to that point is giving me the "this place is pretty weird" vibe and then I found myself in a crowd of people about to stone a couple to death.
Fuck those people. I didn't feel bad about what I did to the cops after either.
It was a pretty primal reaction.
Kind of bummed the game's over, even after playing through it twice in rapid succession. It'll be interesting to see what they'll do with DLC.
You could look at it from a purely immersed way. For example, let's say you're not the Savior of the World. You're Joe Everyman, when you throw a baseball at Fink, you don't get to heroically slaughter cops, you are, right there and then, taken, chained, bound, and then probably flayed to death...would you be willing to do that when you know that the end result would be torturous death? Spoilered or not, we all came into the game with the knowledge that we are not going to be just somebody, we are going to be a really Big Somebody...after all, it's a game, that's what we are in all games.
What would you do if faced with a real-world scenario like that? Would you be willing to die for your beliefs?
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I don't find the game immersive enough that that question entered my mind while playing.
I mean, hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't move to a floating city full of racists or enter a raffle where the prize is getting to hurt people. I'd probably drop the ball and leave, and that would be pretty boring.
Lol, I can see it now. Reach the light house, see bloody corpse "Fuck this shit", get back to the dock and wait for your ride.
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In the end I ran out of time.
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Columbia represents everything I hate about America, past and present. When I reached that point, I wanted to burn the place to the ground.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Which leads to an interesting topic about how game mechanics often clashes with the themes and plot of the story in video games.
Charged upgraded possession is the best AoE in the game. It will instantly kill all humanoid targets in the area except for the one that is left mind controlled, causing all the others to mass suicide.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".