Act III opens up, Orsino is inciting a riot. You don't catch this before, but now, the guy is a fucking hypocrite!
He blames Merideth's use of heavy handed tactics -which I have yet to actually see- because of a few blood mages. The same blood mages that he supports, assists, and trains with. And that's really the catch, isn't it? Through all of Acts I and II, we have yet to see any real dickish attitude by Merideth's orders. The blood mages in the cave murdered a lot of people, yet they are still alive. Let me say this again, the apostate blood mages that murdered a lot of people, that were taken into the Circle six years ago, were not executed or made tranquil, they are still alive and well!
Merideth had nothing to do with the traquil loving asshole in Act II, she actively rejected his idea. You don't see any other mage abuse, aside from that. Matter of fact, a lot of the mages seem to be given rather fair treatment, given the circumstances. The mages that have demon infested nightmares and used blood magic, are given another chance and not executed or made tranquil. Matter of fact, some of the mages in the gallows even say that they are not that bad off and more mages should accept their life, because of how dangerous magic can be.
Same with the Templar whom was about to become an abomination, he's still alive too. And in the Order still. Most of the Templars seem fairly cool, even Cullin, who is kind of a dick because of what happened to him in DA:O, isn't that agressive towards the mages.
No, this is all Orsino's fault. And Anders. Merideth was just crazy.
Bolded for truth.
Anders
was so insanely spiteful towards the circle/templar dynamic that he effectively murders the one person who had the power to keep the peace and kicked off a brutal war that killed god only knows how many people (templars, mages and common folk) for only some nebulous reason I have never been able to trulywrap my head around.
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Captain ElevenThe last card is a kronkRegistered Userregular
Look, you can argue about the relative merits of mages vs. templars, but for me it comes down to this: one of those sides has both Orsino and Anders.
I agree with you. I think Orsino was enticing the other mages in the circle the use blood magic and then putting on a front of the kind benevolent father figure trying to make sure everyone stay calm.
PSN: Valiant_heartPC: Valiantheart99
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Look, you can argue about the relative merits of mages vs. templars, but for me it comes down to this: one of those sides has both Orsino and Anders.
That side is the wrong side.
Yes, but the other side has Dad Hawke and Bethany.
I think the people who reflexively side with the Templars discount the fact that Hawke was raised in an apostate family. She's spent her life on the run from the Templars to protect her dad and sister, and then she assumed the responsibility of keeping Bethany out of the Circle after her dad died. That's all she knows and all she's done. Living La Vida Apostate was her life until Ostragar.
I mean... you can play Hawke as cold-hearted and unsentimental enough to throw her family and upbringing under the bus and support the Templars, but I don't think the backstory bears that out. Hawke got along great with her dad and her sister. That she has a huge sentimental bias in favor of the mages at the start of the game is pretty much canon. The sheer loathsomeness of Kirkwall's mages feels like the DA2 writers were overcompensating for the pro-mage bias of Hawke's family story. So unless you think hard about Hawke's family canon, the end result is that siding with the Templars seems like an easy, sensible decision because, you know... Anders and Orsino. And who likes them?
I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
Also, I have a question vis a vis Merrill. Why is what she's doing wrong and stupid and idiotic, but you'll happily tromp down to where the Blight and Darkspawn come from, way down in the Deep Roads, in order to make a little coin of Dwarven History? I mean, isn't that effectively the same thing, except instead of magic mirror portal to Demon Dimension, you just physically go into Demon Caves?
It's hard to write emotion in the abstract, if not impossible.
Dad Hawke is dead and barely even mentioned in passing. The Legacy DLC is just that, a DLC. Bethany is dead in four out of six possibilities, three of which we only get a few lines out of her. It's only in one possibility that Bethany is in the Circle.
So while there is only a small chance that we see a sympathetic mage, we see the rest as pure assholes. Murdering, blood mages, and abomonations. Anders, Orsino, Merril, the Starkhaven mages, Quentin, ect. At best, the half-elf boy was coolish, but he is either dead or gone, same as Bethany.
On the flip side, we see sympathetic Templars. Those that wish to protect the mages from the extreme views of Meredith. Cullin has doubts, a couple more actively protect the mages. After Meredith is gone, several mages live.
We really needed a main character that is a sympathetic mage and always in the main game. A reason to doubt it. As it is, siding with the Templars is the least awful.
I'm gonna jot that down for my discription for DA2, to sit along with my description of DA:O.
DA:O is: It all boils down to which shitty choice you want to make.
DA2 is: Just pick the least awful.
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I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
True, but it affects mages more. And if affects the worse.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
Act III opens up, Orsino is inciting a riot. You don't catch this before, but now, the guy is a fucking hypocrite!
He blames Merideth's use of heavy handed tactics -which I have yet to actually see- because of a few blood mages. The same blood mages that he supports, assists, and trains with. And that's really the catch, isn't it? Through all of Acts I and II, we have yet to see any real dickish attitude by Merideth's orders. The blood mages in the cave murdered a lot of people, yet they are still alive. Let me say this again, the apostate blood mages that murdered a lot of people, that were taken into the Circle six years ago, were not executed or made tranquil, they are still alive and well!
Merideth had nothing to do with the traquil loving asshole in Act II, she actively rejected his idea. You don't see any other mage abuse, aside from that. Matter of fact, a lot of the mages seem to be given rather fair treatment, given the circumstances. The mages that have demon infested nightmares and used blood magic, are given another chance and not executed or made tranquil. Matter of fact, some of the mages in the gallows even say that they are not that bad off and more mages should accept their life, because of how dangerous magic can be.
Same with the Templar whom was about to become an abomination, he's still alive too. And in the Order still. Most of the Templars seem fairly cool, even Cullin, who is kind of a dick because of what happened to him in DA:O, isn't that agressive towards the mages.
No, this is all Orsino's fault. And Anders. Merideth was just crazy.
Bolded for truth.
Anders
was so insanely spiteful towards the circle/templar dynamic that he effectively murders the one person who had the power to keep the peace and kicked off a brutal war that killed god only knows how many people (templars, mages and common folk) for only some nebulous reason I have never been able to trulywrap my head around.
Uh... Violently overthrowing the status quo? The Revered Mother is keeping peace, sure, but she isn't going to change anything about Kirkwall. Anders considers Kirkwall a microcosm of the Mage condition, more likely also recognizing it as a powder keg situation especially after the Viscounts death. It's the old, "Give me liberty or give me death," idea.
You can decry blood mages as much as you want, but considering A.) the power gained from blood magic is only as dangerous and subversive as the one using it and B.) it seems the only way to stay outside of Templar reach is to use blood magic. Tevinter is definitely painted as being not a nice place for non-Mages, but in spite of all that its also not a hellscape overrun by Demons, so obviously the extremes of control to prevent catastrophes isn't as necessary as its made out to be.
Again, I can see people who side with Templars point of view. I just love how most of them don't seem to have a problem with "good" mages, but only the mean nasty ones.
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Has...DA:O choices weren't all bad.
I saved the world and am now father to a god baby.
Act III opens up, Orsino is inciting a riot. You don't catch this before, but now, the guy is a fucking hypocrite!
He blames Merideth's use of heavy handed tactics -which I have yet to actually see- because of a few blood mages. The same blood mages that he supports, assists, and trains with. And that's really the catch, isn't it? Through all of Acts I and II, we have yet to see any real dickish attitude by Merideth's orders. The blood mages in the cave murdered a lot of people, yet they are still alive. Let me say this again, the apostate blood mages that murdered a lot of people, that were taken into the Circle six years ago, were not executed or made tranquil, they are still alive and well!
Merideth had nothing to do with the traquil loving asshole in Act II, she actively rejected his idea. You don't see any other mage abuse, aside from that. Matter of fact, a lot of the mages seem to be given rather fair treatment, given the circumstances. The mages that have demon infested nightmares and used blood magic, are given another chance and not executed or made tranquil. Matter of fact, some of the mages in the gallows even say that they are not that bad off and more mages should accept their life, because of how dangerous magic can be.
Same with the Templar whom was about to become an abomination, he's still alive too. And in the Order still. Most of the Templars seem fairly cool, even Cullin, who is kind of a dick because of what happened to him in DA:O, isn't that agressive towards the mages.
No, this is all Orsino's fault. And Anders. Merideth was just crazy.
Bolded for truth.
Anders
was so insanely spiteful towards the circle/templar dynamic that he effectively murders the one person who had the power to keep the peace and kicked off a brutal war that killed god only knows how many people (templars, mages and common folk) for only some nebulous reason I have never been able to trulywrap my head around.
Uh... Violently overthrowing the status quo? 1)The Revered Mother is keeping peace, sure, but she isn't going to change anything about Kirkwall. 2)Anders considers Kirkwall a microcosm of the Mage condition, more likely also recognizing it as a powder keg situation especially after the Viscounts death. It's the old, "Give me liberty or give me death," idea.
You can decry blood mages as much as you want, but considering 3)A.) the power gained from blood magic is only as dangerous and subversive as the one using it and 4) B.) it seems the only way to stay outside of Templar reach is to use blood magic. 5) Tevinter is definitely painted as being not a nice place for non-Mages, but in spite of all that its also not a hellscape overrun by Demons, so obviously the extremes of control to prevent catastrophes isn't as necessary as its made out to be.
Again, I can see people who side with Templars point of view. I just love how most of them don't seem to have a problem with "good" mages, but only the mean nasty ones.
1) The Revered Mother is waiting for word from the Divine as to what to do.
Which is why Sebastian is so important, because it gives you this information and shows you what the Divine is thinking about the Kirkwall situation.
2) This is probably incorrect, though I suppose I can see how someone would get that interpretation. To me,
By Chapter 3, the Anders we all once knew is long dead. The only thing left is that Abomination Vengeance, and he needs to die, as he his becoming a demon. That is why Anders is getting progressively more radical. Its not a choice Anders has made, he has been possessed and corrupted.
3) Also not true. Utilizing Blood magic makes the mage more open to possession and weaken the Veil where Blood Magic is used. This is why Demons are eager to teach Blood Magic to mages. The mage can use Blood Magic with only good intentions, but in the end, it still harms the world as a whole.
4) More things I disagree with. Bethany and Father Hawke did just fine avoiding the Templars without using any Blood Magic at all. What it takes is self restraint and intelligence, not gifts from Demons.
5) Its not overrun with demons because so far the mages have kept them under control. It will not last, as almost their every action weakens the Veil and makes them more vulnerable. Its like keeping a pet tiger. Sure, it may seem safe and your friend, but one slip up and it will eat you.
I thought that death weakened the veil, not Blood Magic in and of itself?
It's debatable. The information comes from the official guide, but it's not directly stated in game. That said, the part of Thedas that has the weakest Veil is Kirkwall, which had a very heavy blood spell used there. Not the countless battle fields that had hundreds of thousands die or the amount of those put to the sword by the Chantry or Qunari, but Kirkwall.
The Band of Three says that maybe only 203 slaves went missing in one particular year. Which is a lot, especially the thousands of deaths that they say that went into the spell, but that's still significantly less death than what Tevinter and the Chantry did to Arlathan or the Qunari did to Par Vollen.
Millions died in those instances, yet it's Kirkwall that has the thinnest Veil. This heavily implies that even if the mages intentions and actions are for the sake of good, the use of blood magic weakens the Veil, which in turn shits up life for everybody, especially mages.
Speaking of Sabastion, just finished up that quest with Leliana. Can you say, "Holy low resolution, Batman!" Her outfit was so awful, that was all I could focus on, which is weird, cause I'm usually thinking, "Man, I want to make out with that voice."
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
Also, I have a question vis a vis Merrill. Why is what she's doing wrong and stupid and idiotic, but you'll happily tromp down to where the Blight and Darkspawn come from, way down in the Deep Roads, in order to make a little coin of Dwarven History? I mean, isn't that effectively the same thing, except instead of magic mirror portal to Demon Dimension, you just physically go into Demon Caves?
This is a terrible comparison. She is making pacts with demons to fix a mirror, you're going into some tunnels to kill some darkspawn and get phat lewt. Blights are caused by darkspawn themselves (DA: Awakenings), so it's not like "whoops tripped on a rock it's another blight! Wah wah waaaaaaaaaah"
Millions died in those instances, yet it's Kirkwall that has the thinnest Veil. This heavily implies that even if the mages intentions and actions are for the sake of good, the use of blood magic weakens the Veil, which in turn shits up life for everybody, especially mages.
You can't really say that's implied without considering what the spell was doing. It's not just "a lot of blood magic was used here," it's "a lot of blood magic was used here to do something." They may have been trying to enter the Black City again, for example.
At any rate the idea that any blood magic automatically weakens the veil is incredibly tenuous given current information.
Millions died in those instances, yet it's Kirkwall that has the thinnest Veil. This heavily implies that even if the mages intentions and actions are for the sake of good, the use of blood magic weakens the Veil, which in turn shits up life for everybody, especially mages.
You can't really say that's implied without considering what the spell was doing. It's not just "a lot of blood magic was used here," it's "a lot of blood magic was used here to do something." They may have been trying to enter the Black City again, for example.
At any rate the idea that any blood magic automatically weakens the veil is incredibly tenuous given current information.
The evidence is circumstancial, but tell me, is there a single instance in any of the games, where there is a blood mage and the Veil is not weakened or torn?
Red Cliff, Circle Tower, Denerim, Blackmarsh, Kirkwall, Vigil's Keep, ect
Yet there are places with a shit load of deaths, via normal magic or otherwise, that don't have that feature. How many thousands died in the Kokari Wilds, for example? There was only one shade there.
So, either blood magic directly weakens the Veil or blood magic is innocent, but all mages that use blood magic will eventually weaken the Veil through their actions, because it's power corrupts.
Even Merril's use of blood magic brought a Pride demon across. Talking to her shows how much influence the Pride demon had over her, despite her protests to the contrary. The Keeper says she became more obsessed with the Mirror over the years. Hell, even Merril herself admits as much. Then Merril states in the beginning of Act III, how she really doesn't want to leave her house anymore and she even saw that elf, Tamrel who was sucked into the mirror ten years ago. The Pride demon is fucking with her mind, so that she will focus only on bringing it across the Veil.
Yes, Hawke and The Warden can use blood magic with no cost to their minds, but that's just protagnium in their veins. It's the same thing with Shepard, never becoming indoctrinated, despite his constant exposure to Reaper tech. How many hours was Shep exposed in Arrival? And on the the derelict Reaper? They don't count.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
Also, I have a question vis a vis Merrill. Why is what she's doing wrong and stupid and idiotic, but you'll happily tromp down to where the Blight and Darkspawn come from, way down in the Deep Roads, in order to make a little coin of Dwarven History? I mean, isn't that effectively the same thing, except instead of magic mirror portal to Demon Dimension, you just physically go into Demon Caves?
THe darkspawn and demons are different things, we're not even clear on how they interact with each other
Worst case scenario with Deep Roads expeditions is that something eats you
Worse case scenario with the Fade is that something gets inside of you and then makes you eat somebody else
I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
Also, I have a question vis a vis Merrill. Why is what she's doing wrong and stupid and idiotic, but you'll happily tromp down to where the Blight and Darkspawn come from, way down in the Deep Roads, in order to make a little coin of Dwarven History? I mean, isn't that effectively the same thing, except instead of magic mirror portal to Demon Dimension, you just physically go into Demon Caves?
The thinness of the Kirkwall Veil puts it in the dimensional vicinity of the plane known as Murica in which Capitalism is good and Curiosity is bad.
The evidence is circumstancial, but tell me, is there a single instance in any of the games, where there is a blood mage and the Veil is not weakened or torn?
Templar phylacteries? Daddy Hawke (haven't played Legacy so this is an actual question)? Merrill was a moron from the start, so I don't see what that proves. Blood magic didn't make her plan any dumber over the years than the original part of "let's work with a pride demon!" was.
When there's something that actually suggests blood magic inherently weakens the veil rather than just some morons with more power than responsibility, then I'll believe it. I suspect that's not where they're going, though.
(I don't want to get all Mass Effect as we do in this thread from time to time, but it's plausible for Shepard not to be indoctrinated from her brief exposures with long gaps. The Arrival team and the derelict research crew, on the other hand, were indoctrinated as they studied reaper tech over the long term.)
No, this is all Orsino's fault. And Anders. Merideth was just crazy.
And ultimately this is why I sided with Orsino. I mean, I'm not a fan of Blood Magic, but when the other side of the fence is saying "KILL ALL JEDI", I can't really let that go.
Being able to side with Merdith as a mage never really made sense to me.
I mean she is ordering a rite of anullment, but she is going to spare the apostate possibly blood mage Hawke who has been hanging out with a known bloodmage and also was a known associate of the abomination who just blew up the Chantry. Shouldn't her first reaction be to try to kill you?
Being able to side with Merdith as a mage never really made sense to me.
I mean she is ordering a rite of anullment, but she is going to spare the apostate possibly blood mage Hawke who has been hanging out with a known bloodmage and also was a known associate of the abomination who just blew up the Chantry. Shouldn't her first reaction be to try to kill you?
It is, she's just letting you do the dirty work first
Being able to side with Merdith as a mage never really made sense to me.
I mean she is ordering a rite of anullment, but she is going to spare the apostate possibly blood mage Hawke who has been hanging out with a known bloodmage and also was a known associate of the abomination who just blew up the Chantry. Shouldn't her first reaction be to try to kill you?
It is, she's just letting you do the dirty work first
Well she tries to kill you no matter what though, you would think as a mage she would make you her first target and all the other templars wouldn't want to work with you. I mean my P.C was a bloodmage who used blood magic in front of literally all the nobles in the town and she still gave me side quests.
Being able to side with Merdith as a mage never really made sense to me.
I mean she is ordering a rite of anullment, but she is going to spare the apostate possibly blood mage Hawke who has been hanging out with a known bloodmage and also was a known associate of the abomination who just blew up the Chantry. Shouldn't her first reaction be to try to kill you?
It is, she's just letting you do the dirty work first
Well she tries to kill you no matter what though, you would think as a mage she would make you her first target and all the other templars wouldn't want to work with you. I mean my P.C was a bloodmage who used blood magic in front of literally all the nobles in the town and she still gave me side quests.
You're somewhat of a big deal in Act 3, remember. You saved every noble from horrible, horrible death, so if she wants to be Viscount she has to wait. You also still have utility to her, in that she can get you to do shit she can't. Before you kill the mages you have less capital (shit has gone down) but plenty of utility. After you clear them out that utility is gone.
She is also batshit insane at that point, which is another thing to remember. She may have let you go if she wasn't!
+1
Ov3rchargeR.I.P. Mass EffectYou were dead to me for yearsRegistered Userregular
The evidence is circumstancial, but tell me, is there a single instance in any of the games, where there is a blood mage and the Veil is not weakened or torn?
Templar phylacteries? Daddy Hawke (haven't played Legacy so this is an actual question)? Merrill was a moron from the start, so I don't see what that proves. Blood magic didn't make her plan any dumber over the years than the original part of "let's work with a pride demon!" was.
When there's something that actually suggests blood magic inherently weakens the veil rather than just some morons with more power than responsibility, then I'll believe it. I suspect that's not where they're going, though.
There is still no evidence to the opposite either. Phylacteries may be a form of blood abilities, like the Joining, but it's not a blood mage doing blood magic.
Every blood mage we meet in every game, fucks shit up around them, no matter their good/evil level or intentions. These are all blood mages who fuck something up.
Avernus: Demons, everyone in Soldier's Peak dies and he murders his fellow Wardens. There are maybe two people in Thedas that know more about blood magic than Anernus, Flemeth )whom we never see use blood magic) and Corypheus.
Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power.
So the joining isn's exactly blood magic, per say.
Caladrius: Tevinter magister and slaver.
Jowan: Just wants to be free of the Circle, ends up training a boy, who then reads his books on demons and summons one, killing thousands of people. Was also tasked to poison Eamon.
Mad Hermit: Summons demons.
Uldred: Summons demons, abomonination.
Zathrian: Binds the Lady of the Forest, creates werewolves.
The Baroness: Literally tears the Veil. Edit: I should also mention that the Baroness is who sets up the circumstances to allow Justice to pass through the Veil, we know how that turns out.
Alain: Involved in dozens of murders when the Starkhaven Circle falls, uses blood magic. Demons were present.
Corypheus: Did something really bad that requires spoilers.
Danarius: Slaver, summons demons.
Decimus: Murders people, summons demons.
Evilina: Kills some Templars in self defense, she wants to protect her adopted family. Taken over by a demon and is an abomination.
Gascard DuPuis: Former apprentice to Quentin. Caught using blood mage on an innocent women to control her.
Grace: Part of the Starkhaven mages who killed a lot of people. If spared, she will will later become an abomination while trying to murder Hawke.
Hadriana: Slave owner, murders the slaves for blood power, summons demons.
Huon: Just wants to return to his wife. Murders her, then summons demons to kill Hawke.
Idunna: Uses blood magic to try to get Hawke to kill himself.
Lady Harimann: Learns blood magic from a Desire demon, murders all of Sebastions family, uses blood magic to control her own family, summons more demons to try to kill Hawke.
Malcolm Hawke: Requires spoilers, but he was forced into it. Things still turned to shit for him.
Merrill: Summons a greater Pride demon.
Orsino: Enough said.
Quentin: Enough said.
Tarohne: Forces demons into people, even non-mages.
The only two people who do not have shit go pear shaped around them by using blood magic are the Warden and Hawke, but they don't count.
Mild Confusion on
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The only two people who do not have shit go pear shaped around them by using blood magic are the Warden and Hawke, but they don't count.
You're shifting the argument—it's not whether "shit goes bad" whenever the game throws blood mages in your path (or a number of other types of cannon fodder), it's whether any use of blood magic inherently weakens the veil. Examples where power-hungry jerks happily summon demons doesn't prove anything relevant.
Also, I'd like to note that while Jowan is a moron, what happened in Redcliffe was a young mage who shouldn't have been under the tutelage of a moron/assassin accepted a demon's offer to save his ailing father. Plus if you let Jowan escape, you find him later escorting travelers as a selfless defender, with nary a sign of random demon attacks or cackling laughter.
It's all implication that when mage uses blood magic, the Veil, either directly or indirectly, is damaged enough for demons to cross.
In pretty much every example of blood magic in the games, there is a demon involved in some way. Now, it could be a coincidence, but it seems more related to me.
Even if the application of blood magic may not be inherently evil... Common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons. The use of blood magic itself is treacherous; as it allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into the physical world... Such power generally requires a terrible sacrifice, however: a debt paid in blood at the cost of the lives of others and one's own humanity. As such, while blood magic itself is merely a tool, it is by far the most dangerous means to any end in the realm of Thedas.
Cite is the Official Game Guide for DA:O.
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I forgot how much chaos Zevran incites after DA:O.
We are in danger, friend. Two of the seven Guildmasters are already in Zevran Arainai's pocket, and the Guildmaster of Rialto is dead. While no proof exists, we both know he was involved whether he claims the deed or not. They should have released him when they discovered he lived, "honor of the Antivan Crows" be damned. What option do we have now?
After centuries of unity that have led us to rule a nation from the shadows and have placed kings and queens in our pockets, we are being torn apart from within by a single elf who didn't even succeed in his mission to kill the so-called Hero of Ferelden.
The Guildmasters dismissed Zevran's threat without considering just how many assassins were similarly disaffected. Too many of our numbers have been cheated out of their rightful tithes, driven into hiding, or intimidated into silence... and somehow, Zevran is finding them all. You report that he is not in Antiva, but that isn't always the case. He appears in a city until our operatives find him and chase him out into Rivain or the Free Marches—and then we never hear from them again. We have both spoken to the remaining Guildmasters, and they have denied us. They are blind, and it makes me think maybe Zevran is right. Perhaps it is time for a change.
-- From a half-burned letter found in a Treviso warehouse, 9:35 Dragon.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Like I said before, the strongest evidence is a blurb written by Prima, not Bioware, that isn't even very compelling on its own. It's a trope that common wisdom isn't (the protheans built the relays), and it doesn't even say it inherently weakens the veil at all but that it "allows" it to be opened, which is conditional rather than necessitative. And again, Jowan goes on to protect people, and I think the only time someone else's blood is used is if the Arlessa volunteers herself to try and save Connor if you don't go get more mages.
It's all coincidence and correlation until it isn't. But until then, it is.
Like I said before, the strongest evidence is a blurb written by Prima, not Bioware, that isn't even very compelling on its own.
In the Dragon Age Origins Codex Entry "Blood Magic: The Forbidden School" it states "Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."
This implies, to me at least, that regular magic and lyrium enhanced casting do not risk damage to the veil, keeping demons trapped on the otherside. Meanwhile, using blood magic makes a casting so potent that any magic used to cross the veil will open the door completely, letting Demons pass through.
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Anders
That side is the wrong side.
The Divine is getting really old and she hasn't chosen a successor yet. Word is that she may die before one is chosen.
Do I smell a DA3 plot point here?
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yes, but the other side has Dad Hawke and Bethany.
I think the people who reflexively side with the Templars discount the fact that Hawke was raised in an apostate family. She's spent her life on the run from the Templars to protect her dad and sister, and then she assumed the responsibility of keeping Bethany out of the Circle after her dad died. That's all she knows and all she's done. Living La Vida Apostate was her life until Ostragar.
I mean... you can play Hawke as cold-hearted and unsentimental enough to throw her family and upbringing under the bus and support the Templars, but I don't think the backstory bears that out. Hawke got along great with her dad and her sister. That she has a huge sentimental bias in favor of the mages at the start of the game is pretty much canon. The sheer loathsomeness of Kirkwall's mages feels like the DA2 writers were overcompensating for the pro-mage bias of Hawke's family story. So unless you think hard about Hawke's family canon, the end result is that siding with the Templars seems like an easy, sensible decision because, you know... Anders and Orsino. And who likes them?
There was a new one chosen by the newer book
I think this is really important to note, because if the problem were mages who had no self control, then Tevinter wouldn't exist. The problem is that the Veil is real thin at Kirkwall, and was designed that way. (Yes by blood mages, but it affects everybody.)
Also, I have a question vis a vis Merrill. Why is what she's doing wrong and stupid and idiotic, but you'll happily tromp down to where the Blight and Darkspawn come from, way down in the Deep Roads, in order to make a little coin of Dwarven History? I mean, isn't that effectively the same thing, except instead of magic mirror portal to Demon Dimension, you just physically go into Demon Caves?
Dad Hawke is dead and barely even mentioned in passing. The Legacy DLC is just that, a DLC. Bethany is dead in four out of six possibilities, three of which we only get a few lines out of her. It's only in one possibility that Bethany is in the Circle.
So while there is only a small chance that we see a sympathetic mage, we see the rest as pure assholes. Murdering, blood mages, and abomonations. Anders, Orsino, Merril, the Starkhaven mages, Quentin, ect. At best, the half-elf boy was coolish, but he is either dead or gone, same as Bethany.
On the flip side, we see sympathetic Templars. Those that wish to protect the mages from the extreme views of Meredith. Cullin has doubts, a couple more actively protect the mages. After Meredith is gone, several mages live.
We really needed a main character that is a sympathetic mage and always in the main game. A reason to doubt it. As it is, siding with the Templars is the least awful.
I'm gonna jot that down for my discription for DA2, to sit along with my description of DA:O.
DA:O is: It all boils down to which shitty choice you want to make.
DA2 is: Just pick the least awful.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Ah well.
True, but it affects mages more. And if affects the worse.
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Uh... Violently overthrowing the status quo? The Revered Mother is keeping peace, sure, but she isn't going to change anything about Kirkwall. Anders considers Kirkwall a microcosm of the Mage condition, more likely also recognizing it as a powder keg situation especially after the Viscounts death. It's the old, "Give me liberty or give me death," idea.
You can decry blood mages as much as you want, but considering A.) the power gained from blood magic is only as dangerous and subversive as the one using it and B.) it seems the only way to stay outside of Templar reach is to use blood magic. Tevinter is definitely painted as being not a nice place for non-Mages, but in spite of all that its also not a hellscape overrun by Demons, so obviously the extremes of control to prevent catastrophes isn't as necessary as its made out to be.
Again, I can see people who side with Templars point of view. I just love how most of them don't seem to have a problem with "good" mages, but only the mean nasty ones.
I saved the world and am now father to a god baby.
Pretty cool.
1) The Revered Mother is waiting for word from the Divine as to what to do.
2) This is probably incorrect, though I suppose I can see how someone would get that interpretation. To me,
3) Also not true. Utilizing Blood magic makes the mage more open to possession and weaken the Veil where Blood Magic is used. This is why Demons are eager to teach Blood Magic to mages. The mage can use Blood Magic with only good intentions, but in the end, it still harms the world as a whole.
4) More things I disagree with. Bethany and Father Hawke did just fine avoiding the Templars without using any Blood Magic at all. What it takes is self restraint and intelligence, not gifts from Demons.
5) Its not overrun with demons because so far the mages have kept them under control. It will not last, as almost their every action weakens the Veil and makes them more vulnerable. Its like keeping a pet tiger. Sure, it may seem safe and your friend, but one slip up and it will eat you.
It's debatable. The information comes from the official guide, but it's not directly stated in game. That said, the part of Thedas that has the weakest Veil is Kirkwall, which had a very heavy blood spell used there. Not the countless battle fields that had hundreds of thousands die or the amount of those put to the sword by the Chantry or Qunari, but Kirkwall.
The Band of Three says that maybe only 203 slaves went missing in one particular year. Which is a lot, especially the thousands of deaths that they say that went into the spell, but that's still significantly less death than what Tevinter and the Chantry did to Arlathan or the Qunari did to Par Vollen.
Millions died in those instances, yet it's Kirkwall that has the thinnest Veil. This heavily implies that even if the mages intentions and actions are for the sake of good, the use of blood magic weakens the Veil, which in turn shits up life for everybody, especially mages.
Speaking of Sabastion, just finished up that quest with Leliana. Can you say, "Holy low resolution, Batman!" Her outfit was so awful, that was all I could focus on, which is weird, cause I'm usually thinking, "Man, I want to make out with that voice."
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
This is a terrible comparison. She is making pacts with demons to fix a mirror, you're going into some tunnels to kill some darkspawn and get phat lewt. Blights are caused by darkspawn themselves (DA: Awakenings), so it's not like "whoops tripped on a rock it's another blight! Wah wah waaaaaaaaaah"
You can't really say that's implied without considering what the spell was doing. It's not just "a lot of blood magic was used here," it's "a lot of blood magic was used here to do something." They may have been trying to enter the Black City again, for example.
At any rate the idea that any blood magic automatically weakens the veil is incredibly tenuous given current information.
The evidence is circumstancial, but tell me, is there a single instance in any of the games, where there is a blood mage and the Veil is not weakened or torn?
Red Cliff, Circle Tower, Denerim, Blackmarsh, Kirkwall, Vigil's Keep, ect
Yet there are places with a shit load of deaths, via normal magic or otherwise, that don't have that feature. How many thousands died in the Kokari Wilds, for example? There was only one shade there.
So, either blood magic directly weakens the Veil or blood magic is innocent, but all mages that use blood magic will eventually weaken the Veil through their actions, because it's power corrupts.
Even Merril's use of blood magic brought a Pride demon across. Talking to her shows how much influence the Pride demon had over her, despite her protests to the contrary. The Keeper says she became more obsessed with the Mirror over the years. Hell, even Merril herself admits as much. Then Merril states in the beginning of Act III, how she really doesn't want to leave her house anymore and she even saw that elf, Tamrel who was sucked into the mirror ten years ago. The Pride demon is fucking with her mind, so that she will focus only on bringing it across the Veil.
Yes, Hawke and The Warden can use blood magic with no cost to their minds, but that's just protagnium in their veins. It's the same thing with Shepard, never becoming indoctrinated, despite his constant exposure to Reaper tech. How many hours was Shep exposed in Arrival? And on the the derelict Reaper? They don't count.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
THe darkspawn and demons are different things, we're not even clear on how they interact with each other
Worst case scenario with Deep Roads expeditions is that something eats you
Worse case scenario with the Fade is that something gets inside of you and then makes you eat somebody else
The thinness of the Kirkwall Veil puts it in the dimensional vicinity of the plane known as Murica in which Capitalism is good and Curiosity is bad.
Templar phylacteries? Daddy Hawke (haven't played Legacy so this is an actual question)? Merrill was a moron from the start, so I don't see what that proves. Blood magic didn't make her plan any dumber over the years than the original part of "let's work with a pride demon!" was.
When there's something that actually suggests blood magic inherently weakens the veil rather than just some morons with more power than responsibility, then I'll believe it. I suspect that's not where they're going, though.
(I don't want to get all Mass Effect as we do in this thread from time to time, but it's plausible for Shepard not to be indoctrinated from her brief exposures with long gaps. The Arrival team and the derelict research crew, on the other hand, were indoctrinated as they studied reaper tech over the long term.)
She is also batshit insane at that point, which is another thing to remember. She may have let you go if she wasn't!
It's okay, I still love you.
Not for the same reasons a lot of the time, but still both pretty fun games.
fucking hell steam
why can't you be free from the goddamn rorting of the Australian games market
My dollar is STRONGER than your US dollar right now, but I pay $12.50 for Origins and you pay $7.50?
This isn't 1995 when the AUD was 0.6 USD. Fuck.
There is still no evidence to the opposite either. Phylacteries may be a form of blood abilities, like the Joining, but it's not a blood mage doing blood magic.
Every blood mage we meet in every game, fucks shit up around them, no matter their good/evil level or intentions. These are all blood mages who fuck something up.
Avernus: Demons, everyone in Soldier's Peak dies and he murders his fellow Wardens. There are maybe two people in Thedas that know more about blood magic than Anernus, Flemeth )whom we never see use blood magic) and Corypheus.
So the joining isn's exactly blood magic, per say.
Caladrius: Tevinter magister and slaver.
Jowan: Just wants to be free of the Circle, ends up training a boy, who then reads his books on demons and summons one, killing thousands of people. Was also tasked to poison Eamon.
Mad Hermit: Summons demons.
Uldred: Summons demons, abomonination.
Zathrian: Binds the Lady of the Forest, creates werewolves.
The Baroness: Literally tears the Veil. Edit: I should also mention that the Baroness is who sets up the circumstances to allow Justice to pass through the Veil, we know how that turns out.
Alain: Involved in dozens of murders when the Starkhaven Circle falls, uses blood magic. Demons were present.
Corypheus: Did something really bad that requires spoilers.
Danarius: Slaver, summons demons.
Decimus: Murders people, summons demons.
Evilina: Kills some Templars in self defense, she wants to protect her adopted family. Taken over by a demon and is an abomination.
Gascard DuPuis: Former apprentice to Quentin. Caught using blood mage on an innocent women to control her.
Grace: Part of the Starkhaven mages who killed a lot of people. If spared, she will will later become an abomination while trying to murder Hawke.
Hadriana: Slave owner, murders the slaves for blood power, summons demons.
Huon: Just wants to return to his wife. Murders her, then summons demons to kill Hawke.
Idunna: Uses blood magic to try to get Hawke to kill himself.
Lady Harimann: Learns blood magic from a Desire demon, murders all of Sebastions family, uses blood magic to control her own family, summons more demons to try to kill Hawke.
Malcolm Hawke: Requires spoilers, but he was forced into it. Things still turned to shit for him.
Merrill: Summons a greater Pride demon.
Orsino: Enough said.
Quentin: Enough said.
Tarohne: Forces demons into people, even non-mages.
The only two people who do not have shit go pear shaped around them by using blood magic are the Warden and Hawke, but they don't count.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
You're shifting the argument—it's not whether "shit goes bad" whenever the game throws blood mages in your path (or a number of other types of cannon fodder), it's whether any use of blood magic inherently weakens the veil. Examples where power-hungry jerks happily summon demons doesn't prove anything relevant.
Also, I'd like to note that while Jowan is a moron, what happened in Redcliffe was a young mage who shouldn't have been under the tutelage of a moron/assassin accepted a demon's offer to save his ailing father. Plus if you let Jowan escape, you find him later escorting travelers as a selfless defender, with nary a sign of random demon attacks or cackling laughter.
In pretty much every example of blood magic in the games, there is a demon involved in some way. Now, it could be a coincidence, but it seems more related to me.
Cite is the Official Game Guide for DA:O.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Like I said before, the strongest evidence is a blurb written by Prima, not Bioware, that isn't even very compelling on its own. It's a trope that common wisdom isn't (the protheans built the relays), and it doesn't even say it inherently weakens the veil at all but that it "allows" it to be opened, which is conditional rather than necessitative. And again, Jowan goes on to protect people, and I think the only time someone else's blood is used is if the Arlessa volunteers herself to try and save Connor if you don't go get more mages.
It's all coincidence and correlation until it isn't. But until then, it is.
In the Dragon Age Origins Codex Entry "Blood Magic: The Forbidden School" it states "Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world."
This implies, to me at least, that regular magic and lyrium enhanced casting do not risk damage to the veil, keeping demons trapped on the otherside. Meanwhile, using blood magic makes a casting so potent that any magic used to cross the veil will open the door completely, letting Demons pass through.