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Locked because of Katchem_ashe

CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
edited March 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Thanks to the popularity of anime, manga, and other parts of Japanese culture, Japanophilia is on the rise. I will admit to not knowing a lot about Japan. However, what I do know is not gained from manga and other parts of the entertainment industry of Japan. An increasing number of people are getting what they know about Japan through the crap they have on TV there. Imagine how fucked up a person's view of America would be if the only things they knew about it were gained from MTV, 24, Simpsons, and Family Guy. This is what is essentially happening with Japan. From hearing some people talk about Japan, you would think that Shinto is one of the main forces behind their actions. Japanophiles have become annoying on some websites. Why do people have such a love for Japanese culture instead of German, Chinese, or French culture?

Couscous on
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    Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Panties in vending machines.

    Apothe0sis on
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    thorpethorpe Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Thanks to the popularity of anime, manga, and other parts of Japanese culture, Japanophilia is on the rise. I will admit to not knowing a lot about Japan. However, what I do know is not gained from manga and other parts of the entertainment industry of Japan. An increasing number of people are getting what they know about Japan through the crap they have on TV there. Imagine how fucked up a person's view of America would be if the only things they knew about it were gained from MTV, 24, Simpsons, and Family Guy. This is what is essentially happening with Japan. From hearing some people talk about Japan, you would think that Shinto is one of the main forces behind their actions. Japanophiles have become annoying on some websites. Why do people have such a love for Japanese culture instead of German, Chinese, or French culture?



    Japanese culture is a lot more foreign and exciting than German or French culture.

    I dunno 'bout the Chinese. Probably because a lot of their culture doesn't make it over here.

    thorpe on
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    RanxRanx Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    In before Katchem_Ash!

    On topic though, the only japanophiles I know are general social outcasts. I speculate that it's more a form of being totally different from the accepted norm.
    As to why Japanese culture, our culture is already derived from the European countries, and as such we have a lot in common. That's not saying that there aren't differences, but the harsh difference between North American and Japanese culture is much greater than say, North American and German.

    EDIT: Beat'd

    Ranx on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    . Why do people have such a love for Japanese culture instead of German, Chinese, or French culture?
    German, Chinese and French animation suck.

    Have you seen code lyoko? Fuck that shit. It is worse than fucking startrek, they literally have a plot reset button as part of the show.


    I like their cartoons and many of the games the make. Some of their music is pretty neat. I think some of the stuff that went down during their pre-industrial history was kinda keen, and they have some neat mythology. Shinto may not really be much of a driving force, but it does affect a lot of their modes of story telling, and the results are kinda neat and diffrent from what you would get in the west, and combined with Buddhism leads to a very diffrent understanding of the religious experience, and when you look for it that is present in a lot of the media they create.

    redx on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Hey! You stole my idea!

    When I did history, I studied Japanese Marxism and trade unionism during the US occupation. There are huge swathes of Japanese history that are ignored because it's so fucking easy to look at samurai culture, spout off buzzwords about Shinto, and pretend that the Japanese are just different from westerners.

    It's bullshit, it's intellectually lazy, and it's one of the most glaring remnants of Orientalism.

    Zsetrek on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Honestly, I think people only want to hear about what's different, because we're tired of what's similar.

    Only so many people go to France and want to hit McDonalds first thing off the plane.

    Incenjucar on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yes, but you shouldn't mistake travel-guide history/cultural analysis for the real deal. It's condescending to reduce an entire culture's experience to a few key themes.

    EDIT: To clarify - there's nothing wrong with talking about Samurai culture - it's a huge part of what Japan is, and it's impossible to ignore. But to assume that's the entire sum of the Japanese experience is to a) be fucking ignorant, b) over-simplify the issue to the point where "Japanese" becomes a caricature - it creates a kind of feedback loop where the Japanese become defined by a few things - and in that way, it's ideologically unsound.

    Zsetrek on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Honestly, I think people only want to hear about what's different, because we're tired of what's similar.

    Only so many people go to France and want to hit McDonalds first thing off the plane.

    There are a lot of McDonald's in Japan.

    Couscous on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    It's just that nobody give a rat's ass about the non-exotic aspects of other cultures.

    If Japan was just America with Japanese people, people would not be able to find it on a map.

    Incenjucar on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    So? Who gives a fuck if they can find it on a map?

    If the Irish were always portrayed - and seriously academically studied - as Guinness-swilling leprechauns it might be the tourist capital of the world - but it would be a dangerous lie.

    Zsetrek on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yes, that's very nice.

    It doesn't change that, if Japan didn't have ZOMG ANIME and ZOMG NINJAS and so forth, people would be COMPLETELY ignorant of it, instead of just LARGELY ignorant of it.

    Incenjucar on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2007
    I fail to see the difference.

    Elki on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I think part of being a "weeaboo" would be obsessing over anime and manga, wanting to travel to Japan, etc. but not actually knowing much about Japanese culture, especially the flaws.

    DarkPrimus on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Yes, but you have to kick the intellectual rigour up a notch if you want to knowledgeably discuss something (especially in an academic setting, which is primarily what I'm talking about - although random internet nerds who think that watching Naruto gives them vast cultural insight shit me too). In everyday life we can get away with baguette-munching, bicycle-riding Frenchmen, but if I were to submit that the French were fundamentally different from Americans because of their bread-eating and bicycle-riding habits, I'd be laughed out of any serious discussion on French culture. I don't think it should be any different for Japan.

    Zsetrek on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    People tend to be aware that Japan has raw fish foods, a still-appreciated pre-Christian religious tradition, a noble class defined partly by their right to wield katana/wakizashi sets, a higher degree of comfort with what American culture considers "kid stuff," and so forth.

    It's a LIMITED awareness of the culture, but it's better than "Mommy, what's a Japan?"

    At least people might actually get interested enough in the flashy stuff to go and experience the reality.

    --

    I'll certainly agree that such limited awareness is not grounds for Serious Business, I just fail to see why this has to be labeled Orientalism. It applies to any fricking Other culture. People still Romanticize the hell out of Europe and even the Middle East (Prince of Persia, baby).

    --

    Yeah. Knowing even a bit of actual Japanese culture makes me frightened to actually be around it, as awesome as some of the cultural artifacts are.

    Incenjucar on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Why do people have such a love for Japanese culture instead of German, Chinese, or French culture?

    I'm assuming you're American; apologies if that's incorrect. German, French (and, Italian) culture have been a part of ours for hundreds of years, to the point that we don't even notice any more. We use their language ("gesundheit", "bon appétit", "graffiti"), we use their food (hamburgers, croissants, pasta), and we watch their movies. We've accumulated pieces of hundreds of cultures over time, Japanese culture is no different. There's no massive wave of Japan love hitting the nation, they're simply gaining a foothold. When "konichiwa" becomes as commonly used as "ciao", you'll have a point.

    Janin on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zsetrek, could you give examples or links to serious academic or intellectual studies/discussions of japan that are so obviously flawed as you describe?


    Yeah, the genral public is largely ignorant of... well... most everything and generally their ideas are based in broad generalizations and the small amount of knowledge they have about a subject. That this is true of japan isn't really anything special. A lot of folks don't really know much about all 20 or 30 of Frances revolutions and their causes. Don't understand much about British common law and the importance of the magna carta.


    Say Frankfurter instead of hamburger there. Our version and their version of hamburgers are pretty diffrent historically.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    redx wrote: »
    Zsetrek, could you give examples or links to serious academic or intellectual studies/discussions of japan that are so obviously flawed as you describe?

    Not easily, sorry - most of the examples I'm thinking of are books that I scanned and abandoned in favour of ones that I thought were more useful. I could recommend you some good books - but that's not really what you're after. I'll try to hook you up when I get back from school tonight.

    Zsetrek on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zsetrek wrote: »
    Yes, but you have to kick the intellectual rigour up a notch if you want to knowledgeably discuss something (especially in an academic setting, which is primarily what I'm talking about - although random internet nerds who think that watching Naruto gives them vast cultural insight shit me too). In everyday life we can get away with baguette-munching, bicycle-riding Frenchmen, but if I were to submit that the French were fundamentally different from Americans because of their bread-eating and bicycle-riding habits, I'd be laughed out of any serious discussion on French culture. I don't think it should be any different for Japan.

    Ah, but what if you were to write a paper that assumes the Spanish siesta is the result of a fundamentally different view towards leisure time? Or that some French people's insistence upon a "pure" language stems from a poor view of other cultures? Suddenly, thinking that cultural artifacts such as hikikomori syndrome indicate some very serious problems doesn't seem too ignorant.

    Janin on
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    poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I think Japanese culture is interesting (for me) because it's an economically strong, developed country with a highly literate populace, whose art/literature/animation/music has very little western influence. I'm not saying NO influence, but it's just really interesting to read poetry or novels which have different assumptions. For example, I and my wife (she's Japanese) arrived at a friend's house while he was (unfortunately) watching Six Days Seven Nights. My mates are all sarcastically saying things like 'oh they don't like each other! I wonder if that will become grudging respect followed by love? Will it all end happily ever after, I wonder?'. My wife goes 'Why are they being sarcastic? Oh right, it's an American film. If it was Japanese it wouldn't go like that.'

    Personally I get sick of the samurai stuff. I like martial arts, I like history, but samurai were the aristocracy, only some of who were really bushi. And I'm really not sure it's relevant nowadays. All those 'learn about the Samurai spirit of Japan' 'Bushido and the Salaryman' books really piss me off. I don't recognise the people or country they talk about.

    poshniallo on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Japan's animation industry was basically started by American animation. Betty Boop is the reason big eyes and no nose are now considered "anime style". And with the recent upturn in anime in the west, the animation has certainly become more westernized.

    Janin on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek wrote: »
    Yes, but you have to kick the intellectual rigour up a notch if you want to knowledgeably discuss something (especially in an academic setting, which is primarily what I'm talking about - although random internet nerds who think that watching Naruto gives them vast cultural insight shit me too). In everyday life we can get away with baguette-munching, bicycle-riding Frenchmen, but if I were to submit that the French were fundamentally different from Americans because of their bread-eating and bicycle-riding habits, I'd be laughed out of any serious discussion on French culture. I don't think it should be any different for Japan.

    Ah, but what if you were to write a paper that assumes the Spanish siesta is the result of a fundamentally different view towards leisure time? Or that some French people's insistence upon a "pure" language stems from a poor view of other cultures? Suddenly, thinking that cultural artifacts such as hikikomori syndrome indicate some very serious problems doesn't seem too ignorant.

    I'm not saying that typically "Japanese" ideas are a forbidden subject - hikikomori syndrome is something that needs to be studied. I'm just saying that falling back on tired ideas like Shinto and samurai culture to analyse Japan is intellectually lazy - especially in instances where it's not at all relevant to what's being discussed. It leads to an intellectual culture that can't see the forest for the trees - people focusing on all of the ways in which their culture is unique, but ignoring the ways in which it is similar - it's like denying the Japanese their fundamental humanity by saying that the only way their society can be examined is through a certain lens.

    Zsetrek on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.

    Janin on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    Thanks to the popularity of anime, manga, and other parts of Japanese culture, Japanophilia is on the rise. I will admit to not knowing a lot about Japan. However, what I do know is not gained from manga and other parts of the entertainment industry of Japan. An increasing number of people are getting what they know about Japan through the crap they have on TV there. Imagine how fucked up a person's view of America would be if the only things they knew about it were gained from MTV, 24, Simpsons, and Family Guy. This is what is essentially happening with Japan. From hearing some people talk about Japan, you would think that Shinto is one of the main forces behind their actions. Japanophiles have become annoying on some websites. Why do people have such a love for Japanese culture instead of German, Chinese, or French culture?
    Orientalism. Japan's hardly unique in this aspect, as a number of other cultures are subjected to the process as well. There's no objective difference between the uniqueness of Germany or France compared to Japan (and I'd group China in with Japan here, not with the European countries as you have; I'll get to why in a second), but an awful lot of idiots in academia, politics, and elsewhere have a lot invested in the cultural Otherness of the oriental. These are the blithering morons who drone on about the "exoticness", the "alienness", they talk about the mysticism of the Shinto and Samurai, the "OMG Japan is so scary and fucked up"ness without ever recognizing who little difference their is between a Japan and a "non-exotic" Germany or Spain. It's a discourse that implicitly draws a line between Us and Them. Discourse surrounding China or the Middle East is utterly laden with this bullshit.

    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed anime dorks? The weeaboo phenomenon is driven by the fact that th kind of loser who characterizes it is a total social outcast to begin with; fat 30 year old men who like to dress up like cats and watch cartoons all day in their mom's basement aren't exactly destined to ever be popular. They come to mistake the orientalist discourse for reality, to identify in the otherness, the alienness projected onto Japan in orientalist discourse something akin to their own aliennation. Society rejects them as foreign, so they identify with something else foreign, despite in many cases demonstrably having no real knowledge of or about what it is they're identifying with, because they aren't identifying with Japan the nation, but rather Japan the Orientalist Myth.

    Senjutsu on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    poshniallo:

    1. Japan itself has a pretty long history of having a pretty... uh... romantic view of the Samurai, and considering things like the continued popularity of books like the art of war(yes, I know) and (more relevantly) certain works by Miyamoto Musashi and his contemporaries by folks in the business world(some of the best selling books ever over there), it isn't really that much of something to be pissed about. It is a big chunk of history, and something that a lot of 'type a' personalty folks over there would be expected to identify with.

    Meh, sounds like they are aimed at american businessmen, and some small voice in the back of my mind is implying that they, for the most part, were not exactly shining beacon of success, so you probably have a pretty good point about the book being utter bullshit.

    2. Yeah, your wife was right. In japan, one of the characters would, almost always, start off with a crush. It is not as if their stuff is any less formulaic.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.

    It's not an issue of bad research, though. The research could be thorough, sensitive and thought-provoking - but if everyone's still examining the same themes, then the field of study becomes stale and boring - there's no new influx of ideas and old ways of thinking don't get challenged.

    Study on England or France is going to be very well-rounded. Academics have examined those cultures from nearly every angle. Study on Japan, however, tends to come from one angle - the exotic.

    Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I don't think I am. I think that Japanese study has been significantly short-changed, and is traditionally quite shallow.

    Zsetrek on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    "OMG Japan is so scary and fucked up"ness without ever recognizing who little difference their is between a Japan and a "non-exotic" Germany or Spain. It's a discourse that implicitly draws a line between Us and Them. Discourse surrounding China or the Middle East is utterly laden with this bullshit.

    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed anime dorks?

    :|:|:|

    Is that entire post some sort of elaborate joke, or did you honestly write those words without being overwhelmed by hypocrisy?

    Janin on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.
    Articles of the type he's describing weren't just taken seriously, they were practically the only academic work done regarding Japan until the late '70's. Orientalist cock-mongers like Edward Reischauer, who engaged in precisely what he's describing, weren't just well respected professors at the time, but actively shaped US foreign policy in the region and later was appointed ambassador to the country.

    The fact that such shoddy research wasn't just of the "sure, some researchers are lazy about any culture", but instead dominated the discourse of the country and got a free pass because of its flaws is kind of the point of what the whole attempt to understand and eliminate Orientalism, at least as it's now understood in the context of East Asia, is about.

    Senjutsu on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    "OMG Japan is so scary and fucked up"ness without ever recognizing who little difference their is between a Japan and a "non-exotic" Germany or Spain. It's a discourse that implicitly draws a line between Us and Them. Discourse surrounding China or the Middle East is utterly laden with this bullshit.

    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed anime dorks?

    :|:|:|

    Is that entire post some sort of elaborate joke, or did you honestly write those words without being overwhelmed by hypocrisy?
    What hyporcricy? Orientalism operates on the level of cultural and national formations. Fat weeaboos don't count as a culture.

    Note I'm not attempting to describe anyone who watches anime there, but the sort of fat, Japan obsessive loser whose fanboyness goes far beyond enjoying the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever.

    Senjutsu on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.
    Articles of the type he's describing weren't just taken seriously, they were practically the only academic work done regarding Japan until the late '70's. Orientalist cock-mongers like Edward Reischauer, who engaged in precisely what he's describing, weren't just well respected professors at the time, but actively shaped US foreign policy in the region and later was appointed ambassador to the country.

    A great deal has changed in fourty years. From his post, it sounds like he's angry about modern articles containing the same attitude. I'm just wondering if that's really the outlook of the majority of academics, or just a few idiots on the fringe.

    Janin on
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    poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    I don't think Japan is unique - or any more unique than anywhere else. There are a couple of interesting factors going on though. Sakoku, when the country was closed, allowed the culture to develop in a vacuum. I'm sure geopolitically it was a huge mistake, but it has had some interesting effects. Also the country has moved from feudalism to a supposedly modern democracy in a very short time. I often see, hmm, crypto-feudal elements in the politics here (e.g. children inheriting their parents parliamentary seat).

    Hikikomori is an interesting thing to study, but I doubt it's unique. Kanashibari is often touted as unique, but it's not.

    One problem is that the Nihonjinron industry is devoted to explaining the 'uniqueness' to Japanese and Westerners, and there's far too much money involved to let anyone be fair-minded.

    poshniallo on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.
    Articles of the type he's describing weren't just taken seriously, they were practically the only academic work done regarding Japan until the late '70's. Orientalist cock-mongers like Edward Reischauer, who engaged in precisely what he's describing, weren't just well respected professors at the time, but actively shaped US foreign policy in the region and later was appointed ambassador to the country.

    A great deal has changed in fourty years. From his post, it sounds like he's angry about modern articles containing the same attitude. I'm just wondering if that's really the outlook of the majority of academics, or just a few idiots on the fringe.

    Well, of course it's changing - but there's a loop at work here - if the only articles published focus on the exotic, then following works in the field have to break new ground in order to move beyond that - and breaking new ground is hard.

    So, the quality and thoughtfulness of research has vastly improved - but it still falls back into those established lines of discourse because it's come to the point where that's just how you examine Japan.

    Zsetrek on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Zsetrek, unless the articles you're talking about are taken seriously, it's a bit unfair to bring them up. Examples of badly researched articles could no doubt be found for any culture under study.
    Articles of the type he's describing weren't just taken seriously, they were practically the only academic work done regarding Japan until the late '70's. Orientalist cock-mongers like Edward Reischauer, who engaged in precisely what he's describing, weren't just well respected professors at the time, but actively shaped US foreign policy in the region and later was appointed ambassador to the country.

    A great deal has changed in fourty years. From his post, it sounds like he's angry about modern articles containing the same attitude. I'm just wondering if that's really the outlook of the majority of academics, or just a few idiots on the fringe.
    Starting in the '90s, I think, it stopped being say 50%+1 of the work done on the East Asian region, but it's still far far more common that those kinds of works will be written in seriousness and treated seriously (moreso now in non-accademic areas like news reporting and book publishing than Journals) than in academic research into Western Europe.

    Senjutsu on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    "OMG Japan is so scary and fucked up"ness without ever recognizing who little difference their is between a Japan and a "non-exotic" Germany or Spain. It's a discourse that implicitly draws a line between Us and Them. Discourse surrounding China or the Middle East is utterly laden with this bullshit.

    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed anime dorks?

    :|:|:|

    Is that entire post some sort of elaborate joke, or did you honestly write those words without being overwhelmed by hypocrisy?
    What hyporcricy? Orientalism operates on the level of cultural and national formations. Fat weeaboos don't count as a culture.

    Note I'm not attempting to describe anyone who watches anime there, but the sort of fat, Japan obsessive loser whose fanboyness goes far beyond enjoying the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever.

    As I've watched more media from Japan than the rest of the world the past few years, I feel at least a bit inclined to defend "anime dorks". You're phrasing "the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever" makes anime sound like some sort of vice. I've got dozens of shows, comprising hundreds of episodes, almost all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. Does that lead you to toss me in among Ketchem_Ash and his brethren?

    Janin on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I don't think Japan is unique - or any more unique than anywhere else. There are a couple of interesting factors going on though. Sakoku, when the country was closed, allowed the culture to develop in a vacuum. I'm sure geopolitically it was a huge mistake, but it has had some interesting effects. Also the country has moved from feudalism to a supposedly modern democracy in a very short time. I often see, hmm, crypto-feudal elements in the politics here (e.g. children inheriting their parents parliamentary seat).

    Like, I think the whole WWII thing kinda had a somewhat profound impact on their culture as a whole as well.



    like... some of the events and stuff involved, and with the rebuilding, add to the uniqueness.

    redx on
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    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    As I've watched more media from Japan than the rest of the world the past few years, I feel at least a bit inclined to defend "anime dorks". You're phrasing "the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever" makes anime sound like some sort of vice. I've got dozens of shows, comprising hundreds of episodes, almost all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. Does that lead you to toss me in among Ketchem_Ash and his brethren?

    Jeez. No-one's saying you're not allowed to enjoy Japanese culture - just that you shouldn't mistake pop-academia for the real thing.

    Zsetrek on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Starting in the '90s, I think, it stopped being say 50%+1 of the work done on the East Asian region, but it's still far far more common that those kinds of works will be written in seriousness and treated seriously (moreso now in non-accademic areas like news reporting and book publishing than Journals) than in academic research into Western Europe.

    That is depressing, then. I had hoped at least those who study a culture could move beyond stereotypes. Hopefully older ideas dying off with their adherents will correct that stupidity.

    Janin on
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    SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    "OMG Japan is so scary and fucked up"ness without ever recognizing who little difference their is between a Japan and a "non-exotic" Germany or Spain. It's a discourse that implicitly draws a line between Us and Them. Discourse surrounding China or the Middle East is utterly laden with this bullshit.

    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed anime dorks?

    :|:|:|

    Is that entire post some sort of elaborate joke, or did you honestly write those words without being overwhelmed by hypocrisy?
    What hyporcricy? Orientalism operates on the level of cultural and national formations. Fat weeaboos don't count as a culture.

    Note I'm not attempting to describe anyone who watches anime there, but the sort of fat, Japan obsessive loser whose fanboyness goes far beyond enjoying the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever.

    As I've watched more media from Japan than the rest of the world the past few years, I feel at least a bit inclined to defend "anime dorks". You're phrasing "the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever" makes anime sound like some sort of vice. I've got dozens of shows, comprising hundreds of episodes, almost all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. Does that lead you to toss me in among Ketchem_Ash and his brethren?
    I don't know, I've never met you. There's a specific type of person who fairly clearly falls into the weeaboo category; would a venn diagram help? Not all anime watchers are obsessive weeaboo freaks, but all weaboo freaks are anime watchers.

    Senjutsu on
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    JaninJanin Registered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Zsetrek wrote: »
    jmillikin wrote: »
    As I've watched more media from Japan than the rest of the world the past few years, I feel at least a bit inclined to defend "anime dorks". You're phrasing "the occasional episode of Cowboy Bebop or whatever" makes anime sound like some sort of vice. I've got dozens of shows, comprising hundreds of episodes, almost all of which I thoroughly enjoyed. Does that lead you to toss me in among Ketchem_Ash and his brethren?

    Jeez. No-one's saying you're not allowed to enjoy Japanese culture - just that you shouldn't mistake pop-academia for the real thing.

    Would Senjutsu's post make sense at all if it were "movies" instead of anime?
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    So what's up with those mouth-breathing, unwashed movie dorks? The trekkie phenomenon is driven by the fact that th kind of loser who characterizes it is a total social outcast to begin with; fat 30 year old men who like to dress up like aliens and watch movies all day in their mom's basement aren't exactly destined to ever be popular.

    See what I did there? I took a small population (trekkies), and extrapolated their extreme actions to cover anybody who watches movies of any kind. That sort of nonsense is exactly what this thread is complaining about, except targeted toward a different group.

    Janin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited March 2007
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    I don't know, I've never met you. There's a specific type of person who fairly clearly falls into the weeaboo category; would a venn diagram help? Not all anime watchers are obsessive weeaboo freaks, but all weaboo freaks are anime watchers.
    you know, there are obsessive samurai/martial arts movie fans, that don't like anime.

    would they count?

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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