In the wake of the deadly explosion at a Texas fertilizer plant, reporter Mike Elk of In These Times magazine joins us to discuss the plant’s safety record and the troubling regulatory environment for workplaces in Texas and nationwide. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has not inspected West Fertilizer Co. in five years, and the EPA fined the plant in 2006 for failing to have a risk management plan. Elk says OSHA is understaffed and underfunded nationwide, across all industries.
"OSHA has not inspected this plant in at least five years," notes reporter Mike Elk. "And that’s not uncommon. This is a non-union facility. The way OSHA typically works, and as well as EPA, is that they get a call from a worker, and then inspectors show up, and they inspect the plant, and they find problems. When you have a non-union workforce, like you have in this plant, that’s a lot less likely, since many folks are scared of losing their jobs."
Why don't we have mandatory inspections every other year or so? Why on Earth would you make that voluntary?
EPA? OSHA?
Sounds like big government and socialism to me.
Rick Perry himself wanted to eradicate one of the very government bodies that could have helped prevent this disaster.
Yea, I know, and you can see in the film that they are a decent ways away. I just saw the number and (knowing that it exploded) I was like "jesus that's close".
In the wake of the deadly explosion at a Texas fertilizer plant, reporter Mike Elk of In These Times magazine joins us to discuss the plant’s safety record and the troubling regulatory environment for workplaces in Texas and nationwide. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has not inspected West Fertilizer Co. in five years, and the EPA fined the plant in 2006 for failing to have a risk management plan. Elk says OSHA is understaffed and underfunded nationwide, across all industries.
"OSHA has not inspected this plant in at least five years," notes reporter Mike Elk. "And that’s not uncommon. This is a non-union facility. The way OSHA typically works, and as well as EPA, is that they get a call from a worker, and then inspectors show up, and they inspect the plant, and they find problems. When you have a non-union workforce, like you have in this plant, that’s a lot less likely, since many folks are scared of losing their jobs."
Why don't we have mandatory inspections every other year or so? Why on Earth would you make that voluntary?
EPA? OSHA?
Sounds like big government and socialism to me.
Rick Perry himself wanted to eradicate one of the very government bodies that could have helped prevent this disaster.
I'd like to see more qualified people working for groups like OSHA and the EPA so that proper inspections can take place. Of course that costs money, and it'll find problems at plants that cost money to fix, so lobbyists will never let that happen.
Unfortunately it would also probably result in a knee-jerk downturn in the chemical/refining industry which could possibly lose me my job, but I'd still prefer that everyone do this stuff safely and efficiently.
Edit: I should clarify that I think the vast majority of the industry runs things safely because nobody wants something like this to happen, but man it's frustrating that outliers exist and things like this occur.
I would never put politics above human suffering and I hope West gets enough government aid to get back on its feet.
Yet, it's a bitter pill to read about Perry clearing the way for government aid after the stunt the Republicans pulled over H. Sandy disaster relief here on the east coast. Bitter.
I was informed that Texas is not required to comply with OSHA regulations. It is not an OSHA state.
I was then promptly informed that "Don't worry, I'm sure Comrade Obama will use this as an excuse to force his communist agenda on ALL the states"
Eyes rolled right out mah head. Just right out.
Wait what? Pretty sure OSHA compliance is federally mandated via the Department of Labor
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
They absolutely are under federal jurisdiction, but "<state> isn't required to comply with <federal law> because of <nonsense argument about the constitution>" is a pretty common urban legend these days.
The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate - which can also be used in bomb making - unaware of any danger there.
Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 pounds or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren't shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year.
The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate - which can also be used in bomb making - unaware of any danger there.
Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 pounds or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren't shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
This is just about the easiest lawsuit you could make.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
What does reporting it to the DHS actually do though? It could just be a case of DHS wanting to know, not necessarily that they would have done much. Maybe get them to add security, which probably wasn't the issue here.
Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
so, I guess the government is going to take the plant owners, pry open their jaws and shit down their throats, over this.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
That's kind of a kick in the pants for DHS that they weren't aware that a fertilizer plant would have more than 400 pounds of fertilizer on hand, but I don't really see how it's material to the explosion. DHS doesn't do safety oversight so much as security oversight.
Yeah, it looks like this may just be shining a spotlight on a significant gap in any kind of oversight in general, not just improper enforcement. I'm sure we can expect lots of scapegoating though.
Yes, what we need now is to rage and find some convenient people to scapegoat and throw charges at instead of figuring out how we plug loopholes that allow this to happen.
Pfft. Fuck Texas. Let "small government" conservatism handle this shit. I'm sick of assholes like them and in my own state of TN whining and trying to block help for other states, but when something happens at home "Oh no! We need big daddy to come save us!" Actually, it's more like "Come save us NOW you useless fuck that we make useless by our actions!" So no, no help for them, fuck them.
That's kind of a kick in the pants for DHS that they weren't aware that a fertilizer plant would have more than 400 pounds of fertilizer on hand, but I don't really see how it's material to the explosion. DHS doesn't do safety oversight so much as security oversight.
Adding on to this, the DHS thing is a bit of a red herring. Security and safety are two different issues. DHS' purview would be security, which is keeping stuff like ammonium nitrate out of the hands of Bad Guys. They'd be looking at locks, security cameras, security guards, local police involvement and so on. We don't know yet, but I doubt those were the issues in this case. Safety would be covered by someone like OSHA. To me it seems more likely that this was the result of safety problems, not security problems.
Which isn't to say that there aren't multiple fuckups that led to this, both at the plant and on the government side. The site could have also had security problems, we just don't know because it blew up before someone could try to steal it.
Pfft. Fuck Texas. Let "small government" conservatism handle this shit. I'm sick of assholes like them and in my own state of TN whining and trying to block help for other states, but when something happens at home "Oh no! We need big daddy to come save us!" Actually, it's more like "Come save us NOW you useless fuck that we make useless by our actions!" So no, no help for them, fuck them.
yes let's punish a bunch of people for the actions of elected reps with their heads up their asses trying to veto or reduce aid funds for other areas
that will certainly teach them
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
I want them to get any help they need, but I'd like it to be made abundantly clear that they are receiving aid that they wanted to deny to other people, and that they want to reduce overall on principle, and that maybe they should think about that before they get huffy next time
Yeah Rick Perry's a shitheel and no doubt about that. I dunno. We didn't make New Jersey apologize or tell them that they could have aid this time even though some of their representatives voted against Hurricane Katrina relief. Mostly I just don't dig punishing constituents for their elected representatives acting like assholes, because as the gun control bill failure shows, elected reps sort of do what they want even when a vast majority of America is telling them something different.
Yes, what we need now is to rage and find some convenient people to scapegoat and throw charges at instead of figuring out how we plug loopholes that allow this to happen.
OK West has a population of approximately three thousand so even if they had all voted for someone else they would have been able to change exactly zero of the people who represent them. I understand it's frustrating to have someone say "no you can't have money" and then a year or two or three down the road say "wait, I was wrong, now give me money" but remember when less than a year after Governor Christie called Obama useless and asked why we're paying him he turned around tail between legs and asked Obama for relief money? Or the rep from New Jersey who voted no for Katrina funds but is still in office? Like... you're talking about whacking someone on the nose with a newspaper, at best, or at worst leaving them to rebuild without any assistance because of political circumstances they absolutely could not on any level control because they are such a small town.
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HunterChemist with a heart of AuRegistered Userregular
OK West has a population of approximately three thousand so even if they had all voted for someone else they would have been able to change exactly zero of the people who represent them. I understand it's frustrating to have someone say "no you can't have money" and then a year or two or three down the road say "wait, I was wrong, now give me money" but remember when less than a year after Governor Christie called Obama useless and asked why we're paying him he turned around tail between legs and asked Obama for relief money? Or the rep from New Jersey who voted no for Katrina funds but is still in office? Like... you're talking about whacking someone on the nose with a newspaper, at best, or at worst leaving them to rebuild without any assistance because of political circumstances they absolutely could not on any level control because they are such a small town.
While I agree with you that West, Texas deserves federal aid and that the government should help, comparing Texas to New Jersey is not apples to oranges. It's apples to a state that has threatened secession multiple times like a petulant child.
Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
I am willing to guess the response from generally anti-federal people to receiving federal relief is "well I finally done got mine, it's only fair!"
I forget the name for this delightful fallacy but it's the idea that, say, other people are lazy moochers while you've just fallen on hard times
Those guys should have had money saved up for an emergency, but you, well, how could you have known something like this would happen? You live hand to mouth since the gubbmint takes all your money for taxes, so you couldn't save up, so now the gubbmint owes you after all they've taken from you!
Posts
EPA? OSHA?
Sounds like big government and socialism to me.
Rick Perry himself wanted to eradicate one of the very government bodies that could have helped prevent this disaster.
well
sometimes
other times when it rains it just sprinkles
those goddamn chemicals man
I was then promptly informed that "Don't worry, I'm sure Comrade Obama will use this as an excuse to force his communist agenda on ALL the states"
Eyes rolled right out mah head. Just right out.
The Apocalypse Has Never Been More Fun
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http://www.today.com/news/witness-texas-plant-blast-lifted-my-truck-ground-1C9503042
I hope all of the other people watching with that guy are ok. Kinda scary him talking about them being nowhere to be seen after the explosion...
3 football fields endzone to endzone. Minus a bit.
I'd like to see more qualified people working for groups like OSHA and the EPA so that proper inspections can take place. Of course that costs money, and it'll find problems at plants that cost money to fix, so lobbyists will never let that happen.
Unfortunately it would also probably result in a knee-jerk downturn in the chemical/refining industry which could possibly lose me my job, but I'd still prefer that everyone do this stuff safely and efficiently.
Edit: I should clarify that I think the vast majority of the industry runs things safely because nobody wants something like this to happen, but man it's frustrating that outliers exist and things like this occur.
Yet, it's a bitter pill to read about Perry clearing the way for government aid after the stunt the Republicans pulled over H. Sandy disaster relief here on the east coast. Bitter.
Off the top of my head I think it was an Italian war surplus Carcano.
6.5 mm Carcano bolt action rifle.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
Wait what? Pretty sure OSHA compliance is federally mandated via the Department of Labor
jesus fucking christ
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NOW I'm pissed.
Arrest everyone, please.
Yes, what we need now is to rage and find some convenient people to scapegoat and throw charges at instead of figuring out how we plug loopholes that allow this to happen.
Adding on to this, the DHS thing is a bit of a red herring. Security and safety are two different issues. DHS' purview would be security, which is keeping stuff like ammonium nitrate out of the hands of Bad Guys. They'd be looking at locks, security cameras, security guards, local police involvement and so on. We don't know yet, but I doubt those were the issues in this case. Safety would be covered by someone like OSHA. To me it seems more likely that this was the result of safety problems, not security problems.
Which isn't to say that there aren't multiple fuckups that led to this, both at the plant and on the government side. The site could have also had security problems, we just don't know because it blew up before someone could try to steal it.
yes let's punish a bunch of people for the actions of elected reps with their heads up their asses trying to veto or reduce aid funds for other areas
that will certainly teach them
You would think
lets do both
While I agree with you that West, Texas deserves federal aid and that the government should help, comparing Texas to New Jersey is not apples to oranges. It's apples to a state that has threatened secession multiple times like a petulant child.
Secret Satan 2013 Wishlist
I forget the name for this delightful fallacy but it's the idea that, say, other people are lazy moochers while you've just fallen on hard times
Those guys should have had money saved up for an emergency, but you, well, how could you have known something like this would happen? You live hand to mouth since the gubbmint takes all your money for taxes, so you couldn't save up, so now the gubbmint owes you after all they've taken from you!