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The Struggle With Spice
joshofalltrades
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
Class TraitorSmoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
One of my friends (who is actually more acquainted with my wife than me) came over last night and reported that her husband has been acting extremely strangely lately. He's having delusions, hallucinations of people on their property, and several other very personal issues. I can't go into any detail about some of the darker things because she wishes to remain anonymous.
What I can say is that those issues have involved sexual assault (yes, in a marriage), her feeling like she's been violated, but no physical rape. Additionally, he is constantly calling her and wanting to know where she is, and believes she is having an affair with several other men even when she provides him with evidence that she is where she says she is (at the park with my wife, for instance; she'll hold out the phone so he can hear the kids playing, and put my wife on the phone and he still won't believe her).
My wife didn't know what might be causing this sudden change in behavior, and I was a little stumped at first too, though I know that he has suffered from PTSD, depression, and anxiety before, and I also know that his age is prime time for latent psychological issues to manifest. I am not a psychiatrist and I told her as much, but I did ask if there is any known drug use (hallucinations made this one of the first things to pop into my head).
Apparently, he has been using spice (slang term for "synthetic marijuana", although the stuff is nothing like marijuana at all). I only knew three things about spice before we had this conversation and I did some research:
1) Spice was determined to be unfit for human consumption by its own creator
2) The specific chemical that was originally synthesized, and several imitators, are now illegal, but now you can literally walk into a gas station and get a pack of the stuff that comforts you with the information that it contains "no illegal ingredients", which is about as reassuring as being air-dropped into the deepest, darkest part of Australia and being told that it contains "very few species that can kill you if you know what to watch out for". Now, unless you have access to an analytical chem lab, it's impossible to know for sure what's in a lot of this stuff.
3) It is crazy bad for you. I'd only heard vague horror stories, enough to make sure I steer clear for forever and ever amen.
So, as soon as I heard he was on this junk, I did some more digging and holy shit this stuff can mess your brain up and how. Pretty much every symptom she is reporting could potentially be caused by the spice. She was a little relieved, I think, to hear that it might be a chemical that's causing his psychosis and delusions and not just, you know, him being a delusional psycho, but a lot of trust is already lost between them regardless. She stayed at our house last night (with her daughter) and doesn't know what the next step is. I'm reading that the stuff can be hard to kick, and even though he is apparently willing to stop using it (she told him what I had found last night) I am familiar enough with the behavior of addicts to be leery of advising her to let him stop cold turkey without monitoring, assistance, or some sort of therapy.
The trouble is, there really isn't a "spice rehab center" here in west Texas. I mean, this isn't exactly the most progressive state already but I don't think there's a lot of awareness about this drug in particular. The packages aren't very forthcoming about the horrors they can inflict upon you and unless you have done your research or have heard about it from someone you know, chances are you've never even heard of spice.
So I want to give her some good advice on how to go about getting him treatment. I am sure I want to recommend he go to a facility that will monitor him and ensure he is drug and symptom-free for some time (I've heard kicking the nastier side effects can take up to a month or more), and my home is open to her for as long as she needs to not be around him, but other than that I don't even know where to start telling her to seek help. All of the psychiatrists in town have a waiting list as long as my leg.
Any advice you guys can lend would be welcome.
What I can say is that those issues have involved sexual assault (yes, in a marriage), her feeling like she's been violated, but no physical rape. Additionally, he is constantly calling her and wanting to know where she is, and believes she is having an affair with several other men even when she provides him with evidence that she is where she says she is (at the park with my wife, for instance; she'll hold out the phone so he can hear the kids playing, and put my wife on the phone and he still won't believe her).
My wife didn't know what might be causing this sudden change in behavior, and I was a little stumped at first too, though I know that he has suffered from PTSD, depression, and anxiety before, and I also know that his age is prime time for latent psychological issues to manifest. I am not a psychiatrist and I told her as much, but I did ask if there is any known drug use (hallucinations made this one of the first things to pop into my head).
Apparently, he has been using spice (slang term for "synthetic marijuana", although the stuff is nothing like marijuana at all). I only knew three things about spice before we had this conversation and I did some research:
1) Spice was determined to be unfit for human consumption by its own creator
2) The specific chemical that was originally synthesized, and several imitators, are now illegal, but now you can literally walk into a gas station and get a pack of the stuff that comforts you with the information that it contains "no illegal ingredients", which is about as reassuring as being air-dropped into the deepest, darkest part of Australia and being told that it contains "very few species that can kill you if you know what to watch out for". Now, unless you have access to an analytical chem lab, it's impossible to know for sure what's in a lot of this stuff.
3) It is crazy bad for you. I'd only heard vague horror stories, enough to make sure I steer clear for forever and ever amen.
So, as soon as I heard he was on this junk, I did some more digging and holy shit this stuff can mess your brain up and how. Pretty much every symptom she is reporting could potentially be caused by the spice. She was a little relieved, I think, to hear that it might be a chemical that's causing his psychosis and delusions and not just, you know, him being a delusional psycho, but a lot of trust is already lost between them regardless. She stayed at our house last night (with her daughter) and doesn't know what the next step is. I'm reading that the stuff can be hard to kick, and even though he is apparently willing to stop using it (she told him what I had found last night) I am familiar enough with the behavior of addicts to be leery of advising her to let him stop cold turkey without monitoring, assistance, or some sort of therapy.
The trouble is, there really isn't a "spice rehab center" here in west Texas. I mean, this isn't exactly the most progressive state already but I don't think there's a lot of awareness about this drug in particular. The packages aren't very forthcoming about the horrors they can inflict upon you and unless you have done your research or have heard about it from someone you know, chances are you've never even heard of spice.
So I want to give her some good advice on how to go about getting him treatment. I am sure I want to recommend he go to a facility that will monitor him and ensure he is drug and symptom-free for some time (I've heard kicking the nastier side effects can take up to a month or more), and my home is open to her for as long as she needs to not be around him, but other than that I don't even know where to start telling her to seek help. All of the psychiatrists in town have a waiting list as long as my leg.
Any advice you guys can lend would be welcome.
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is a big huge bright red flag that she needs to get somewhere safe. I don't know if she'd be receptive of it, untangling yourself from a relationship with an abuser is extraordinarily difficult, but this is absolutely a situation where I would gently suggest calling the cops and help her investigate women's shelters and other exit strategies.
I don't believe he is normally physically or sexually abusive. I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but I just want to give the correct context for that part of the post. I haven't had to deal with drug-induced paranoid delusions before and don't know whether that should mean he should be seen as an abuser now.
In any case, she is staying with us while she decides what to do about all of this. Her daughter is here too.
I'm glad that you're helping her and her daughter out with a safe space, maybe suggest she look into Nar-Anon meetings if there's one near you?
but they're listening to every word I say
Do most insurance companies have a BHH? How would one go about finding out? In my experience, asking your insurance company for help finding services that will lead to them giving you money isn't terribly productive.
My girlfriend works for a major health insurance company on one. Usually your company will give out pamphlets that say something like "stressed? Depressed? Drug concerns? Call this number." She says that all the other insurance companies that she knows have similar lines.
It's confidential. Most of their job is to provide you with a list of in network providers, which will be covered.
Given that he has paranoid delusions, drug use, and already harmed someone else, he will almost certainly be escalated to a clinician. This wont be proper therapy or anything but they know how to convince people to get help.
The numbers should also be online. If you know what the insurance company is I might have the numbers already.
but they're listening to every word I say
She also says she knows what spice is and they will too. And it is bad news bears.
And be patient, the phone call might take a bit and you might be transferred a lot till you get to the right place.
He needs help. Drug induced paranoid delusions are the kind of thing where people get violent. If things get really out of hand dont be afraid to call 911. Like if he starts showing up at your house flying off the handle.
but they're listening to every word I say
I'm not going to ban the words, but I will warn right now that it's an automatic three points to whoever starts joking around in this thread.
Not material. The reasoning doesn't matter. There is no excuse good enough. There is no context to make that better.
And they have a daughter. This shouldn't be a matter of keeping their daughter away until she figures out what to do.. it should be keeping their daughter away until he is better. Paranoid delusions can take all kinds of forms, he could get literally just about anything into his head, and if any of that ever involves his daughter.. well.. it's really not safe to have her around him. She can't afford to take promises that he'll stop using and be fine and just try to go back to how everything was before.
She needs to call all those numbers and do everything Jebus is saying, but she will probably have to talk to him about it at some point and if she does I really think that she should have a few other people around to look out for her. If he's already shown he's not above doing shitty faithfulness checks of her body against her will, she's no longer a person to him in his current state of mind and her personal agency probably means very little to him. If he gets angry and takes it into his head to get more violent, that could get serious fast.
From the standpoint of someone who has been in an abusive situation where all you want is to be able to give the benefit of the doubt, I know that it is really hard not to do that. It's hard to put your foot down and say "nope, this was the line." And it's scary and no one wants to think they're ever going to be the person who ends up there, but for right now she needs to put all of that aside and think really, really practically about all of this. And as soon as she can get him checked in somewhere and get him help, she should probably start going to therapy herself. This sort of thing can mess you up in ways you just can't see at the time.
Told her to call the GTFO of there and call the cops if he tries anything
I still have precious few details about what went down but I was very damn close to calling the police, and I know that something went bad despite her making it out and getting her things in the process
I've used some Synth Cannabis before it was outlawed and you could just buy it everywhere over here and it was horrible.
Strangely enough it still seems to be sorta legal in the states, probably because it took some time for the trend to cross the atlantic.
However, the drug is not addictive. At least not physically.
This man is dangerous right now and she needs to take herself and her daughter out of that situation until he is better, if that ever happens.
I told her that she needs to get a restraining order at least. She is having a tough time doing that even now. It sucks because right now it would be super easy for him to manipulate her back into a place where he could hurt her by picking their daughter up from school, which without any police report or court document he has every right to do.
It's a weekend now, and I don't know how old their daughter is, but is it possible for her to be kept home for a few days until paperwork for a restraining order is sorted?
Does anyone know if it would speed things along to get CPS involved? I actually have no idea.
Honest to God, I know it's going to be hard for her to do. It is not easy to start to take steps to fix a bad situation when you want to believe the best of the person you chose to spend your life with. It's damn near impossible. But... daughter. Be understanding, but.. try to help her see. Your wife saw everything, maybe she can help.
Seeing as this situation seems to have reached dangerous levels already the best response from your wife's friend is to call 911 and inform EMS and police what is going on. People who are in paranoid or aggressive psychotic episodes often times will simply not respond to calls to get help and may even feel that suggesting that they seek assistance as betrayal and a threat, which can cause them to lash out sometimes violently.
This guy has a number of conditions (PTSD, Depression, anxiety) that place him at a greater risk of substance abuse. I don’t think that it is a simple matter of him not wanting to stop but a complex mix of both an attempt to self medicate and ab increasing loss of touch with reality. If he does have a latent mental disorder then recreational drugs can cause a massive increase in its severity, drugs can also trigger an illness that was not otherwise presenting itself. PTSD can sometimes result in delusions and aggression but I’ve never heard of something that is like what you are describing.
Many drugs can cause psychosis either from a bad reaction or as an emergent effect from continued use. The chance of this occurring can increase if drugs are mixed with other drugs or “cut” with additional chemicals. This guys condition is unlikely to subsided until his supply of drugs is exhausted or he becomes incapacitated (passes out) for long enough that that the high wears off.
Going to where this guy is staying is not safe and she should leave that to the police. If this is so bad a mental health hospital is offering service then I don’t think that this guy is going to be released after a 72 hour hold. Calling an insurance hotline is not going to put the kinds of services this woman needs into her hands. Insurance run call lines are more about directing people to some of the basic mental health services that an insurance company might offer. The goal of those lines is to get someone to seek help early because it dramatically reduces the costs of treatment; not unlike most other health issues.
In short call 911.
CPS is not someone I would call. The child’s mother seems to be keeping her kid safe. The child's welfare is what CPS is concerned with so if the mother is fulfilling her parental duties CPS doesn't have a whole lot of extra tools to make things better in this situation. There is a small risk that their involvement could make things worse if they make a poor assessment of the circumstances this family is in. I think that bringing CPS into it would just make things more volatile for little gain.
Also I though of one more thing while i was writing this. A call to the authorities doesn't have to come from your wife's freind it can come from you. If you have enogh information that you can show that this guy is a credible threat for harm to himself or others then they have to intervene. Even if they don't find it credible they still do a welfare check and if the house is in the state you say and this guy is acting as you say he is then it is unlikely they won't pick him up.
Talk to your friend and if she wont call the cops do it yourself that way she cant be lured back. You don't have to tell her that you did it, you could just say "The cops got a call from someone and your husband got picked up. it was probably one of the neighbors". its not normally police procedure to go into who made the complaint so when they start talking to your friend it's not likely that she would find out what you did. even if you did tell her or she knew it was you she seems to be so distressed that any resolution to this is going to look pretty good.
Thanks for clearing that up. My thinking was for purposes of custody, but I wasn't sure if that might make things worse.
This you do not know, one of the things that makes the synthetic form (if you even want to call it) is that whatever company is making it can put basically anything into it because it isn't regulated. Mentally however depending on the person it can hook its claws in deep, it shouldn't be physically addictive but we don't know the formula or what crap is in with it.
It also isn't legal in many states for this exact reason and as a whole in the US many of the formulas are banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_Drug_Abuse_Prevention_Act_of_2012
All this is to say that the effects of spice are very unpredictable. Spice-induced psychosis is a real thing. It's NOT just synthetic marijuana, and the fact that it's the result of regulatory cat-and-mouse between the DEA and dorm-room chemists just makes it that much more dangerous. It also CAN be addictive, and you can develop chemical dependence to it. I have had clients who described serious withdrawal-type symptoms who have had to go to the emergency room for detox and then done in-patient rehab, all for spice.
You already know how dangerous it can be from recent experience, but other people here minimizing it's effects are flat wrong. It can be addictive, sometimes seriously so, and it can also induce a very serious psychotic break.
If this guy is not willing or able to see reason at this point, is making threats -- and he's armed, as you say -- it's time for your friend to start thinking about long-term solutions. Divorce lawyer. Police involvement. Restraining order (that covers the daughter too, if that's possible). Visit family (not local, and ideally someone whose address the husband can't get hold of). I'm not sure if there's a system in place to allow her to pull her daughter out of school and flee without him attempting to drag her back on some sort of trumped-up parental kidnapping charge, but that should be investigated.
It's sad though. I know how tough it can be to escape that kind of situation.
I mean he literally vomited and pooed all over the floor. And then physically threatened his wife. If that isn't grounds for hospitalization for yourself and the protection of others then I don't know what is.
but they're listening to every word I say
She seemed like she was going to stick to her guns and get him committed. Then she totally surprised us by running out the door like, 5 minutes after saying she wasn't going to.
Have you considered having the guy put on a 72 hour psych hold? Texas has such a thing:
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/get-help/know-the-laws-in-your-state
http://treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/documents/Emergency_Hospitalization_for_Evaluation.pdf
Sounds like you can make the complaint on behalf of his wife and daughter; if what your wife saw matches the criteria. This would be a pretty intrusive move, but if they're in real danger then they're in real danger and fuck inter-personal politics.
Edit: Short of playing batman, I'm not sure what else you can do here as a private citizen. I would strongly suggest calling the local police department (as opposed to 911) and asking them about this. Tell them what you told us, and they will be able to tell you the ins and outs, and hopefully advise you on the best course of action.
The real problem with the drugs this guy is smoking is that, at this point, I think we're way past JWH chemicals. As the laws are continually updated to ban old and new substances chemists simply tweak their formula or change it outright. As such we've gone from what was actually a pretty simple compound to god knows what the fuck this is and how it will affect you. That said there is still zero research on any of it.
JOAT given everything you have posted I feel the best advice is that you need to alert the authorities to this man and his behavior. There is a very real threat present especially if this guy has access to firearms. By involving you and your wife with this lady and her husband you guys are putting risks to yourselves just by being in proximity to this guy and his situation.
Shogun Streams Vidya
If he starts to think you're trying to steal her away into your sex-cult, and/or you're one of the guys that she's been fucking (hence why your wife could be present on the phone, or your kids could be heard in the background, and "why does he care so much about my wife all of a sudden?"), then you're going to become part of his delusion and that's not a great place to be.
If the wife is not willing to get help, you can't make her. She has to decide to stop being a victim. You can potentially assist with this by involving the authorities, but understand that its going to be pretty obvious who took that step to both him and her and you have no guarantee how that will turn out if she gets dead set on defending him.
If you decide it is worth it to stay involved, then you really need to contact the police and explore your options. Trying to fix this directly, at this point, strikes me as a terrible idea. For that matter, any further contact between your family and this man is a terrible idea. This has escalated beyond a "keep it in the family" mentality and requires professional assistance.
It is a difficult situation and I hope everything turns out for the best.
I know we established that she is taking care of her daughter so you don't want to call CPS because things might end up worse, but if she had the poor judgment to bring the girl back there I would seriously question that.
anecdote time! Our neighbor asked us to watch her kid for the day once (normal 9 to 5 thing) and then disappeared for two days. CPS was called and they wouldn't even come out. They asked who was watching the kid (7 years old at the time) and we said we were. CPS said as long as someone responsible was watching her that they couldn't do anything. The police said the same thing.
None of that sounded right at the time (and it still doesn't sound right to me), but after calling the two agencies responsible for the welfare of children, who else do you call?
either way, she came back and there haven't been any problems since.
I'd personally call both the police and CPS. The worst that can happen is that they are unable to help currently. The best is a speedier resolution to their problems.
sometimes fear IS a rational emotion. you've already reached a conclusion, even if you don't realize it yet.
call the police, or wash your hands of this situation entirely (and make sure your wife does as well)
this guy sounds like he is thoroughly beyond your control. it's in or out at this point. call the cops and tell them what you've told us, or cut ties and look after your own.
Just protect yourself, if he threatened or touched your wife (when he cut between the two of them?) you should consider a PPO. It's a double edged sword, but it might be the right choice and give you more options down the line. Also, creating a report / file on him may help you and your wife, his wife, or his daughter when and if something happens down the line.
Where we live, you have to have multiple documented incidents before you can get a PPO, so check your local laws to see if that's the case.