Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
If only someone could go through decades of games and find the sexist trends in the medium so people could inform themselves on the subject.
Oh, someone did that you say? And received death threats and rape threats and was called a whore and a slut and a dumb bitch for even imply on hat there is something wrong here?
Huh, yeah guess there isn't a sexism problem in this industry at all.
The only thing what you are speaking about has illustrated is that anonymity on the internet will bring out the misogynists, racists, homophobes, and all other sorts of negative elements.
I agree. Actually your posts so far in this thread are pretty much proof of that.
You're denying at a base level that sexism in the industry is a problem, correct? I don't want to misrepresent your stance. If that's your position, are you saying it doesn't exist, or it isn't a "big deal"?
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
So many pages of people avoiding the fact that the only problem seems to be that woman create/play/buy video games a lot less than men.
There is nothing wrong with sexualization, there's nothing wrong with having the avatars of violence being depicted more often than not as male. If you are upset with either of those things, add to the examples in ways you find appealing, or don't. Dictating what should be created is wrong. The answer to a lack of art you like is "more art".
Too many of the arguments are boiling down to "some game designers aren't as creative as I feel they should be". No shit?
Nope. Welcome to the thread, I recommend reading the OP.
There is a problem with sexualization when it is the norm for a specific gender.
No one has said they should be able to dictate what others create outside of telling someone what they think.
Harmful art doesn't cease to be harmful simply through the creation of other, better art.
There's nothing wrong with calling shitty design shitty.
I don't see the norm for a particular gender being much more than oversimplifications of real humans because of limitations of certain media its forms. Princess peach could be a victim in Super Mario Brothers, or a powerful ruler....Mario could be a violent man with nothing but murder in his eyes....but guess what it's an 8 bit video game without any real story.
and yes people have said they should be able to dictate what others create, you might not be doing it, but its happening.
What does your first sentence even mean? Is this a biological argument? What is a "real human" and what do you mean by "oversimplification"? That men tend to be heroes so no duh Mario is a hero? And women tend to be helpless so no duh Princess is kidnapped? This has got to be a troll or something. Princess Peach is a victim in Super Mario Brothers...she gets kidnapped.
My first sentence means that some games are old, they are very limited in what they can represent because of technology. A few pixels is an oversimplification of the human form. Also 10 lines or less of text in these older games are an oversimplification of the personalities involved. Some games don't even feature humans. I implied the depiction of mario as a violent killer is hurtful to men. The depiction of Peach as his matriarchal overload is damning. These impressions are as valid as any others for a game that contains no story.
Pretty sure even 8-bit Nintendo could display text, thus negating any technological "oversimplifications" in the process. Unless you want to argue that books oversimplify as well? Is your argument that the limits of technology are the reason for gender disparities in videogames? Really? Because I have no idea what your argument is through all this abstract clutter.
Plus, how is Peach a matriarchal overlord? Mario a murderous machine? Don't you even find both of these descriptions as laden with sexist overtones? Eh, nevermind. These are just distractions from the actual issue at hand.
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
After reading through a few pages I just kinda have to ask, why do the creators of Brink need to give a reason for not including women characters? Forcing the option isn't a great way to address the issue. I'd say it is best to just praise the games that do it and allow others to do their own thing, there is a place and a market for everything. While I am male I'm not upset about the choice to make remember me a female protagonist, it was their design decision. I understand there are much less options for women who want to play as women, but I think it does far more to talk about (and buy) the ones that do it well, rather than make the claim that everyone should always give the option to play as either gender. What about the need for androgynous characters for those that identify as gender neutral? I hate slippery slope arguments, but you are never going to please everyone 100% of the time. Game developers should be able to create and continue creating male protagonists without the shouts of 'sexism' being thrown about.
Let's face it a lot of this is the fact that publishers are out to make money, the more characters you have to design for costs more money. If they feel like the possibility of alienating individuals who feel the need to play as their own gender makes more market sense than the cost of creating those customizations, then that is what they are going to do. Businesses make these kind of decisions quite a bit(customer perception over cost analysis), I'll bet some of the designers of games you might mention with this problem wanted to include female models, but were told it wasn't worth the perceived cost. While you might think of that as a 'bad' thing, it is why the publisher is there.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2013
Is armagoddonbound doing this ironically? I am completely unsure if these are genuine opinions or an elaborate parody of what someone who is the sort of sexist, misogynistic individual in gaming this thread is about.
If only someone could go through decades of games and find the sexist trends in the medium so people could inform themselves on the subject.
Oh, someone did that you say? And received death threats and rape threats and was called a whore and a slut and a dumb bitch for even imply on hat there is something wrong here?
Huh, yeah guess there isn't a sexism problem in this industry at all.
The only thing what you are speaking about has illustrated is that anonymity on the internet will bring out the misogynists, racists, homophobes, and all other sorts of negative elements.
Oh, it's just the internet that is the problem. People in real life are much more civil.
Is that your argument?
My argument is that posts on the internet, especially youtube comments and tweets are a terrible judge of the nations character as a whole.
If only someone could go through decades of games and find the sexist trends in the medium so people could inform themselves on the subject.
Oh, someone did that you say? And received death threats and rape threats and was called a whore and a slut and a dumb bitch for even imply on hat there is something wrong here?
Huh, yeah guess there isn't a sexism problem in this industry at all.
The only thing what you are speaking about has illustrated is that anonymity on the internet will bring out the misogynists, racists, homophobes, and all other sorts of negative elements.
I agree. Actually your posts so far in this thread are pretty much proof of that.
You're denying at a base level that sexism in the industry is a problem, correct? I don't want to misrepresent your stance. If that's your position, are you saying it doesn't exist, or it isn't a "big deal"?
You are comparing my posts to misogynists, homophobes etc.? That's an ugly thing for you to do.
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
So many pages of people avoiding the fact that the only problem seems to be that woman create/play/buy video games a lot less than men.
There is nothing wrong with sexualization, there's nothing wrong with having the avatars of violence being depicted more often than not as male. If you are upset with either of those things, add to the examples in ways you find appealing, or don't. Dictating what should be created is wrong. The answer to a lack of art you like is "more art".
Too many of the arguments are boiling down to "some game designers aren't as creative as I feel they should be". No shit?
Nope. Welcome to the thread, I recommend reading the OP.
There is a problem with sexualization when it is the norm for a specific gender.
No one has said they should be able to dictate what others create outside of telling someone what they think.
Harmful art doesn't cease to be harmful simply through the creation of other, better art.
There's nothing wrong with calling shitty design shitty.
I don't see the norm for a particular gender being much more than oversimplifications of real humans because of limitations of certain media its forms. Princess peach could be a victim in Super Mario Brothers, or a powerful ruler....Mario could be a violent man with nothing but murder in his eyes....but guess what it's an 8 bit video game without any real story.
and yes people have said they should be able to dictate what others create, you might not be doing it, but its happening.
What does your first sentence even mean? Is this a biological argument? What is a "real human" and what do you mean by "oversimplification"? That men tend to be heroes so no duh Mario is a hero? And women tend to be helpless so no duh Princess is kidnapped? This has got to be a troll or something. Princess Peach is a victim in Super Mario Brothers...she gets kidnapped.
My first sentence means that some games are old, they are very limited in what they can represent because of technology. A few pixels is an oversimplification of the human form. Also 10 lines or less of text in these older games are an oversimplification of the personalities involved. Some games don't even feature humans. I implied the depiction of mario as a violent killer is hurtful to men. The depiction of Peach as his matriarchal overload is damning. These impressions are as valid as any others for a game that contains no story.
Pretty sure even 8-bit Nintendo could display text, thus negating any technological "oversimplifications" in the process. Unless you want to argue that books oversimplify as well? Is your argument that the limits of technology are the reason for gender disparities in videogames? Really? Because I have no idea what your argument is through all this abstract clutter.
Plus, how is Peach a matriarchal overlord? Mario a murderous machine? Don't you even find both of these descriptions as laden with sexist overtones? Eh, nevermind. These are just distractions from the actual issue at hand.
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
Maybe you should re-read the game manual as pointed out earlier.
...The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. She is currently in the clutches of Great Demon King Koopa. Mario has stepped up to defeat the Turtle Tribe, save Princess Peach, and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom...
What's that again, about doing this just for "his" overlord?
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
I think the 47% statistic is being over-focused...especially in regards to the quote immediately below it
women 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the
game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (18%)
Something something market research
It's more "something something almost no information".
It's a PR document that doesn't include crosstabs or the actual study results, so it's pretty much useless. If you read it through, you'll notice it deliberately avoids giving crosstabs or anything related to them or the nature of the study's questions, so it's actually extremely unenlightening and mostly just useless. How does it even define "gamer"? Who knows. It's written by an industry advocacy group, so you can guess what the lean in the presentation is gonna be.
It's irrelevant since the demographics of gamers doesn't suddenly allow them to be sexist regardless of what those demographics are. Just, you know, don't try and read anything in to those stats. They are useless.
If only someone could go through decades of games and find the sexist trends in the medium so people could inform themselves on the subject.
Oh, someone did that you say? And received death threats and rape threats and was called a whore and a slut and a dumb bitch for even imply on hat there is something wrong here?
Huh, yeah guess there isn't a sexism problem in this industry at all.
The only thing what you are speaking about has illustrated is that anonymity on the internet will bring out the misogynists, racists, homophobes, and all other sorts of negative elements.
Oh, it's just the internet that is the problem. People in real life are much more civil.
Is that your argument?
My argument is that posts on the internet, especially youtube comments and tweets are a terrible judge of the nations character as a whole.
Why are we talking about a few pixels and fewer than ten lines of text? Do we need a DeLorean?
It's his red-herring.
I'm sorry you feel that way but many posters "arguing the other side", have also used this as an example. The high profile anita video for one.
Guess, what, it's a pretty damned good way to take the temperature of a community that is mainly based online. Unless the same 10 assholes have accounts on every game forum/comment section on the internet, yes, the game community is full of asshole misogynistic pricks, and the gaming community collective freakout over those videos is a perfect example of that.
It may seem logical to say "Oh, but those are a minority" when you can point to this forum, but go anywhere else and you'll see that most of the time even those who moderate community threads are super against any self reflection on this topic. The community is broken, the games are broken, and if you can't see that then you are either blind to sexism or you're being dishonest about your intent in this thread.
After reading through a few pages I just kinda have to ask, why do the creators of Brink need to give a reason for not including women characters? Forcing the option isn't a great way to address the issue. I'd say it is best to just praise the games that do it and allow others to do their own thing, there is a place and a market for everything. While I am male I'm not upset about the choice to make remember me a female protagonist, it was their design decision. I understand there are much less options for women who want to play as women, but I think it does far more to talk about (and buy) the ones that do it well, rather than make the claim that everyone should always give the option to play as either gender. What about the need for androgynous characters for those that identify as gender neutral? I hate slippery slope arguments, but you are never going to please everyone 100% of the time. Game developers should be able to create and continue creating male protagonists without the shouts of 'sexism' being thrown about.
Let's face it a lot of this is the fact that publishers are out to make money, the more characters you have to design for costs more money. If they feel like the possibility of alienating individuals who feel the need to play as their own gender makes more market sense than the cost of creating those customizations, then that is what they are going to do. Businesses make these kind of decisions quite a bit(customer perception over cost analysis), I'll bet some of the designers of games you might mention with this problem wanted to include female models, but were told it wasn't worth the perceived cost. While you might think of that as a 'bad' thing, it is why the publisher is there.
We're not saying that every game needs to have female options.
We're saying it needs to be more common, and that the balance found in Brink - more male customization which nobody can even see in-game at the expense of female characters - was the wrong one.
Is armagoddonbound doing this ironically? I am completely unsure if these are genuine opinions or an elaborate parody of what someone who is the sort of sexist, misogynistic individual in gaming this thread is about.
It only took, what? One page for me to be equated to misogynists. You just shed a light on the problem with this discussion and it's proponents. I'm sorry, I'm used to a level of discourse that is civil. I'll be going back to my normal corners of this board. Good day sir.
It seemed to be predicated on anecdotal examples of misunderstandings and bad behavior.
Then you should really read the OP. Because you're quite incorrect.
The entire first half is anecdotes. Most of which point to misunderstandings.
ok if you're going to discount the actual, real, literally-things-that-happened-to-women accounts as non-important because 'anecdotes and misunderstandings'
then i think i can surmise that you don't view this as a problem
well sir you have a long way to go
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2013
Armageddonbound, you were never interested in any level of civil discourse, or you would have given some degree of evidence of having read the thread first. In particular, I note how you claimed people were avoiding arguments and then ignored this post I wrote to you right here, addressing that argument. So forgive me if I am not going to worry overly much about you matyring yourself.
Wow, armageddonbound. There's no point in trying to convince you. You're like the lunatic that runs around the streets with a sign and a bell shouting "the end is nigh!" While tugging peoples' sleeves going "why won't you listen?!"
Well, you seem to think whether or not the industry suffers from a problem with sexism is even up for discussion. It's not, for your information. The reason you don't see the problem is because you're it. It's pretty obvious that you're an ignorant, sexist, privileged, straight, white male. I feel sorry for you.
Also calling videogames art is not an excuse. Damn, I'm gonna put that line in my signature..
Game developers should be able to create and continue creating male protagonists without the shouts of 'sexism' being thrown about.
I'm going to be honest, and a bit of a dick, but I don't give a shit about the rest of your post. It is a collection of tired arguments that has been addressed in the thread OP, in the thread itself, and in the previous thread.
This, this however is a nice chunk to pull out and focus on.
I love this quote, and use bits of it all the time. It comes from Junot Diaz
I have so many young writers who're like, "Well I was inspired. This was my story." And I'm like, "OK. Sir, your inspiration for your stories is like every other male's inspiration for their stories: that the female is only in there to provide sexual service." There comes a time when this mythical inspiration is exposed for doing exactly what it's truthfully doing: to underscore and reinforce cultural structures, or I'd say, cultural asymmetry.
Now, please to not focus on how this is specifically talking about how not to create shitty female characters. Draw your attention to the bolded.
The reason when we see such a skewed ration of males:females in regards to games protagonists we cry "sexism" is due the bolded. It is complex, to be sure, but at its heart it is because such disparity creates cultural asymmetry, which in turn creates sexism, which in turn goes back and creates more asymmetry.
The other point is, we have games about men. We have tons of games about me. The first video games were about men. Zelda is a game named after a woman, but the game is actually focusing on the man's story in the game.
It is no surprise that the industry is hostile to women, because it is the "man cave" through and through- people are making games about men for men, and whenever they are criticized, they lash out instead of trying to include.
So, I guess my answer to your post is- in a vacuum, no one cares who your protagonist is. However, we don't live in a vacuum, and the continual focus on male-only protagonists to the exclusion of all else sends messages, dogg.
After reading through a few pages I just kinda have to ask, why do the creators of Brink need to give a reason for not including women characters? Forcing the option isn't a great way to address the issue. I'd say it is best to just praise the games that do it and allow others to do their own thing, there is a place and a market for everything. While I am male I'm not upset about the choice to make remember me a female protagonist, it was their design decision. I understand there are much less options for women who want to play as women, but I think it does far more to talk about (and buy) the ones that do it well, rather than make the claim that everyone should always give the option to play as either gender. What about the need for androgynous characters for those that identify as gender neutral? I hate slippery slope arguments, but you are never going to please everyone 100% of the time. Game developers should be able to create and continue creating male protagonists without the shouts of 'sexism' being thrown about.
Let's face it a lot of this is the fact that publishers are out to make money, the more characters you have to design for costs more money. If they feel like the possibility of alienating individuals who feel the need to play as their own gender makes more market sense than the cost of creating those customizations, then that is what they are going to do. Businesses make these kind of decisions quite a bit(customer perception over cost analysis), I'll bet some of the designers of games you might mention with this problem wanted to include female models, but were told it wasn't worth the perceived cost. While you might think of that as a 'bad' thing, it is why the publisher is there.
no you know what i am fucking sick of this logic
IT'S NOT AN 'OPTION'
NO. NO NO NO NO.
it's not an 'extra' to make your game more welcoming to 50% of humanity. it's just not. it's common fucking sense.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
So many pages of people avoiding the fact that the only problem seems to be that woman create/play/buy video games a lot less than men.
There is nothing wrong with sexualization, there's nothing wrong with having the avatars of violence being depicted more often than not as male. If you are upset with either of those things, add to the examples in ways you find appealing, or don't. Dictating what should be created is wrong. The answer to a lack of art you like is "more art".
Too many of the arguments are boiling down to "some game designers aren't as creative as I feel they should be". No shit?
Nope. Welcome to the thread, I recommend reading the OP.
There is a problem with sexualization when it is the norm for a specific gender.
No one has said they should be able to dictate what others create outside of telling someone what they think.
Harmful art doesn't cease to be harmful simply through the creation of other, better art.
There's nothing wrong with calling shitty design shitty.
I don't see the norm for a particular gender being much more than oversimplifications of real humans because of limitations of certain media its forms. Princess peach could be a victim in Super Mario Brothers, or a powerful ruler....Mario could be a violent man with nothing but murder in his eyes....but guess what it's an 8 bit video game without any real story.
and yes people have said they should be able to dictate what others create, you might not be doing it, but its happening.
What does your first sentence even mean? Is this a biological argument? What is a "real human" and what do you mean by "oversimplification"? That men tend to be heroes so no duh Mario is a hero? And women tend to be helpless so no duh Princess is kidnapped? This has got to be a troll or something. Princess Peach is a victim in Super Mario Brothers...she gets kidnapped.
My first sentence means that some games are old, they are very limited in what they can represent because of technology. A few pixels is an oversimplification of the human form. Also 10 lines or less of text in these older games are an oversimplification of the personalities involved. Some games don't even feature humans. I implied the depiction of mario as a violent killer is hurtful to men. The depiction of Peach as his matriarchal overload is damning. These impressions are as valid as any others for a game that contains no story.
Pretty sure even 8-bit Nintendo could display text, thus negating any technological "oversimplifications" in the process. Unless you want to argue that books oversimplify as well? Is your argument that the limits of technology are the reason for gender disparities in videogames? Really? Because I have no idea what your argument is through all this abstract clutter.
Plus, how is Peach a matriarchal overlord? Mario a murderous machine? Don't you even find both of these descriptions as laden with sexist overtones? Eh, nevermind. These are just distractions from the actual issue at hand.
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
Maybe you should re-read the game manual as pointed out earlier.
...The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. She is currently in the clutches of Great Demon King Koopa. Mario has stepped up to defeat the Turtle Tribe, save Princess Peach, and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom...
What's that again, about doing this just for "his" overlord?
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
If only someone could go through decades of games and find the sexist trends in the medium so people could inform themselves on the subject.
Oh, someone did that you say? And received death threats and rape threats and was called a whore and a slut and a dumb bitch for even imply on hat there is something wrong here?
Huh, yeah guess there isn't a sexism problem in this industry at all.
The only thing what you are speaking about has illustrated is that anonymity on the internet will bring out the misogynists, racists, homophobes, and all other sorts of negative elements.
I agree. Actually your posts so far in this thread are pretty much proof of that.
You're denying at a base level that sexism in the industry is a problem, correct? I don't want to misrepresent your stance. If that's your position, are you saying it doesn't exist, or it isn't a "big deal"?
You are comparing my posts to misogynists, homophobes etc.? That's an ugly thing for you to do.
Hey, I'm not the one denying there's an issue here.
And yes, I'm comparing your posts and your lack of reading up on the subject to a negative element on the internet. Not necessarily any of those things you listed off, however.
I think that unless you are actively, consciously working against the gravitational pull of the culture, you will predictably, thematically, create these sort of fucked-up representations. Without fail. The only way not to do them is to admit to yourself [that] you're fucked up, admit to yourself that you're not good at this shit, and to be conscious in the way that you create these characters. It's so funny what people call inspiration. I have so many young writers who're like, "Well I was inspired. This was my story." And I'm like, "OK. Sir, your inspiration for your stories is like every other male's inspiration for their stories: that the female is only in there to provide sexual service." There comes a time when this mythical inspiration is exposed for doing exactly what it's truthfully doing: to underscore and reinforce cultural structures, or I'd say, cultural asymmetry.
At heart, "your inspiration is the same inspiration as everyone else's. Keep going. Push yourself to break out of the mold your culture has put around you. You are an artist, act like one. Push boundaries. Defy culture. Break tradition. Make art"
It seemed to be predicated on anecdotal examples of misunderstandings and bad behavior.
Then you should really read the OP. Because you're quite incorrect.
The entire first half is anecdotes. Most of which point to misunderstandings.
ok if you're going to discount the actual, real, literally-things-that-happened-to-women accounts as non-important because 'anecdotes and misunderstandings'
then i think i can surmise that you don't view this as a problem
well sir you have a long way to go
I don't know if they are real. I just know they are anecdotes. You know what an anecdote is and why it's not actual evidence correct?
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
It seemed to be predicated on anecdotal examples of misunderstandings and bad behavior.
Then you should really read the OP. Because you're quite incorrect.
The entire first half is anecdotes. Most of which point to misunderstandings.
ok if you're going to discount the actual, real, literally-things-that-happened-to-women accounts as non-important because 'anecdotes and misunderstandings'
then i think i can surmise that you don't view this as a problem
well sir you have a long way to go
I don't know if they are real. I just know they are anecdotes. You know what an anecdote is and why it's not actual evidence correct?
No, in this case you're confusing "anecdotal evidence" with "evidence comprised of anecdotes"
THe former is usually down to a single person's experience
The latter is a picture made up of many, many, many people's stories, representing a significant portion of the group being represented
It seemed to be predicated on anecdotal examples of misunderstandings and bad behavior.
Then you should really read the OP. Because you're quite incorrect.
The entire first half is anecdotes. Most of which point to misunderstandings.
ok if you're going to discount the actual, real, literally-things-that-happened-to-women accounts as non-important because 'anecdotes and misunderstandings'
then i think i can surmise that you don't view this as a problem
well sir you have a long way to go
I don't know if they are real. I just know they are anecdotes. You know what an anecdote is and why it's not actual evidence correct?
sir do you think if there was a police report or perhaps an email chain or some real hard evidence for each instance talked about that you'd accept it?
i mean for all we know, bullying is something whiners just make up, they're constantly telling anecdotes about it and it's not actual evidence.
and when they commit suicide over it, eh, that's not related to something anecdotal like bullying, right?
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
So many pages of people avoiding the fact that the only problem seems to be that woman create/play/buy video games a lot less than men.
There is nothing wrong with sexualization, there's nothing wrong with having the avatars of violence being depicted more often than not as male. If you are upset with either of those things, add to the examples in ways you find appealing, or don't. Dictating what should be created is wrong. The answer to a lack of art you like is "more art".
Too many of the arguments are boiling down to "some game designers aren't as creative as I feel they should be". No shit?
Nope. Welcome to the thread, I recommend reading the OP.
There is a problem with sexualization when it is the norm for a specific gender.
No one has said they should be able to dictate what others create outside of telling someone what they think.
Harmful art doesn't cease to be harmful simply through the creation of other, better art.
There's nothing wrong with calling shitty design shitty.
I don't see the norm for a particular gender being much more than oversimplifications of real humans because of limitations of certain media its forms. Princess peach could be a victim in Super Mario Brothers, or a powerful ruler....Mario could be a violent man with nothing but murder in his eyes....but guess what it's an 8 bit video game without any real story.
and yes people have said they should be able to dictate what others create, you might not be doing it, but its happening.
What does your first sentence even mean? Is this a biological argument? What is a "real human" and what do you mean by "oversimplification"? That men tend to be heroes so no duh Mario is a hero? And women tend to be helpless so no duh Princess is kidnapped? This has got to be a troll or something. Princess Peach is a victim in Super Mario Brothers...she gets kidnapped.
My first sentence means that some games are old, they are very limited in what they can represent because of technology. A few pixels is an oversimplification of the human form. Also 10 lines or less of text in these older games are an oversimplification of the personalities involved. Some games don't even feature humans. I implied the depiction of mario as a violent killer is hurtful to men. The depiction of Peach as his matriarchal overload is damning. These impressions are as valid as any others for a game that contains no story.
Pretty sure even 8-bit Nintendo could display text, thus negating any technological "oversimplifications" in the process. Unless you want to argue that books oversimplify as well? Is your argument that the limits of technology are the reason for gender disparities in videogames? Really? Because I have no idea what your argument is through all this abstract clutter.
Plus, how is Peach a matriarchal overlord? Mario a murderous machine? Don't you even find both of these descriptions as laden with sexist overtones? Eh, nevermind. These are just distractions from the actual issue at hand.
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
Maybe you should re-read the game manual as pointed out earlier.
...The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. She is currently in the clutches of Great Demon King Koopa. Mario has stepped up to defeat the Turtle Tribe, save Princess Peach, and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom...
What's that again, about doing this just for "his" overlord?
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
Where is his friends threatened in the text? She has power over lifting a curse, you don't think that's different than escaping a prison? How does she watch Mario when she's locked in a castle far away? She doesn't have the power over life and death...
I find inserting details that are just not in the text. She can lift a spell, one spell, from her people; how does this give her the authority over life and death and also make her a god? I don't see your interpretation as valid because it's, plainly, making shit up.
Armageddonbound, you were never interested in any level of civil discourse, or you would have given some degree of evidence of having read the thread first. In particular, I note how you claimed people were avoiding arguments and then ignored this post I wrote to you right here, addressing that argument. So forgive me if I am not going to worry overly much about you matyring yourself.
Missing one post by you does not mean someone isn't interested in discourse. It could possibly mean that they missed it because of how fast attack the vultures are in this thread or any number of things. I've been insulted in a terrible way for daring to have a different opinion than the creator of this thread. Take a look in the mirror.
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
Wow.
Hey, you seem to understand how reading too much into an 8bit video game with little text is so ridiculous.
Thats a misleading statistic and you know it. What percentage of the genders games that cost more than 1.99? What percentage buy games that have depictions of human forms? What percentage own and purchased their own gaming system? How many systems do they own? How many games per system?
So many pages of people avoiding the fact that the only problem seems to be that woman create/play/buy video games a lot less than men.
There is nothing wrong with sexualization, there's nothing wrong with having the avatars of violence being depicted more often than not as male. If you are upset with either of those things, add to the examples in ways you find appealing, or don't. Dictating what should be created is wrong. The answer to a lack of art you like is "more art".
Too many of the arguments are boiling down to "some game designers aren't as creative as I feel they should be". No shit?
Nope. Welcome to the thread, I recommend reading the OP.
There is a problem with sexualization when it is the norm for a specific gender.
No one has said they should be able to dictate what others create outside of telling someone what they think.
Harmful art doesn't cease to be harmful simply through the creation of other, better art.
There's nothing wrong with calling shitty design shitty.
I don't see the norm for a particular gender being much more than oversimplifications of real humans because of limitations of certain media its forms. Princess peach could be a victim in Super Mario Brothers, or a powerful ruler....Mario could be a violent man with nothing but murder in his eyes....but guess what it's an 8 bit video game without any real story.
and yes people have said they should be able to dictate what others create, you might not be doing it, but its happening.
What does your first sentence even mean? Is this a biological argument? What is a "real human" and what do you mean by "oversimplification"? That men tend to be heroes so no duh Mario is a hero? And women tend to be helpless so no duh Princess is kidnapped? This has got to be a troll or something. Princess Peach is a victim in Super Mario Brothers...she gets kidnapped.
My first sentence means that some games are old, they are very limited in what they can represent because of technology. A few pixels is an oversimplification of the human form. Also 10 lines or less of text in these older games are an oversimplification of the personalities involved. Some games don't even feature humans. I implied the depiction of mario as a violent killer is hurtful to men. The depiction of Peach as his matriarchal overload is damning. These impressions are as valid as any others for a game that contains no story.
Pretty sure even 8-bit Nintendo could display text, thus negating any technological "oversimplifications" in the process. Unless you want to argue that books oversimplify as well? Is your argument that the limits of technology are the reason for gender disparities in videogames? Really? Because I have no idea what your argument is through all this abstract clutter.
Plus, how is Peach a matriarchal overlord? Mario a murderous machine? Don't you even find both of these descriptions as laden with sexist overtones? Eh, nevermind. These are just distractions from the actual issue at hand.
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
Maybe you should re-read the game manual as pointed out earlier.
...The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. She is currently in the clutches of Great Demon King Koopa. Mario has stepped up to defeat the Turtle Tribe, save Princess Peach, and restore peace to the Mushroom Kingdom...
What's that again, about doing this just for "his" overlord?
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
Where is his friends threatened in the text? She has power over lifting a curse, you don't think that's different than escaping a prison? How does she watch Mario when she's locked in a castle far away? She doesn't have the power over life and death...
I find inserting details that are just not in the text. She can lift a spell, one spell, from her people; how does this give her the authority over life and death and also make her a god? I don't see your interpretation as valid because it's, plainly, making shit up.
The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. You find me inserting details that aren't there in the text? Darn, now I feel like Anita.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2013
You posted a good chunk of the replies on that page and somehow missed a large post with a direct response to you? Uh-huh.
I am still hanging out hope you are just doing this as an elaborate parody, but you really are serious aren't you? Have you even made any attempt to understand what the concept of agency is and why the overuse of feminine damsel in distress tropes in games is even about? Because right now you are just making shit up and expecting us to think this is somet amazing clever refutation.
I mean hey there must not be any sexism if you ignore and hand wave away all the sexism.
+3
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wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
I've been considering posting specific criticisms (and/or elaborations upon) of the 'male power fantasy' and 'damel' arguments in this thread for a while, but damn armageddonbround you are making me facepalm.
After reading through a few pages I just kinda have to ask, why do the creators of Brink need to give a reason for not including women characters? Forcing the option isn't a great way to address the issue. I'd say it is best to just praise the games that do it and allow others to do their own thing, there is a place and a market for everything. While I am male I'm not upset about the choice to make remember me a female protagonist, it was their design decision. I understand there are much less options for women who want to play as women, but I think it does far more to talk about (and buy) the ones that do it well, rather than make the claim that everyone should always give the option to play as either gender. What about the need for androgynous characters for those that identify as gender neutral? I hate slippery slope arguments, but you are never going to please everyone 100% of the time. Game developers should be able to create and continue creating male protagonists without the shouts of 'sexism' being thrown about.
Let's face it a lot of this is the fact that publishers are out to make money, the more characters you have to design for costs more money. If they feel like the possibility of alienating individuals who feel the need to play as their own gender makes more market sense than the cost of creating those customizations, then that is what they are going to do. Businesses make these kind of decisions quite a bit(customer perception over cost analysis), I'll bet some of the designers of games you might mention with this problem wanted to include female models, but were told it wasn't worth the perceived cost. While you might think of that as a 'bad' thing, it is why the publisher is there.
no you know what i am fucking sick of this logic
IT'S NOT AN 'OPTION'
NO. NO NO NO NO.
it's not an 'extra' to make your game more welcoming to 50% of humanity. it's just not. it's common fucking sense.
I really don't see the reason for this line of thought. Why aren't we complaining about them not releasing Iron-woman 3 this weekend along side Iron-man 3?
Posts
I think the 47% statistic is being over-focused...especially in regards to the quote immediately below it
Something something market research
It's his red-herring.
I agree. Actually your posts so far in this thread are pretty much proof of that.
You're denying at a base level that sexism in the industry is a problem, correct? I don't want to misrepresent your stance. If that's your position, are you saying it doesn't exist, or it isn't a "big deal"?
That is actually kind of shocking
Yes 8-bit games could display text. The game examples we are using dont have much however, because they are action adventure games. How is Peach a matriachal overlord? How is mario a murderous machine with no thought for his own well being that both lives and dies (billions of times) for no other purpose than his overlord? How indeed. How can we jump to conclusions about these characters with such little narrative to go on.
Let's face it a lot of this is the fact that publishers are out to make money, the more characters you have to design for costs more money. If they feel like the possibility of alienating individuals who feel the need to play as their own gender makes more market sense than the cost of creating those customizations, then that is what they are going to do. Businesses make these kind of decisions quite a bit(customer perception over cost analysis), I'll bet some of the designers of games you might mention with this problem wanted to include female models, but were told it wasn't worth the perceived cost. While you might think of that as a 'bad' thing, it is why the publisher is there.
Also that report shows that both online and on mobile platforms, puzzle based games make up the largest percentage of games by a wide margin
fukkin casuals
(although their categories for the graphs are really fucking weird)
EDIT: Like, what makes a "downloadable" game different than, say, a Puzzle game from steam? Did you not download it?
My argument is that posts on the internet, especially youtube comments and tweets are a terrible judge of the nations character as a whole.
I'm sorry you feel that way but many posters "arguing the other side", have also used this as an exmaple. The high profile anita video for one.
You are comparing my posts to misogynists, homophobes etc.? That's an ugly thing for you to do.
Maybe you should re-read the game manual as pointed out earlier.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/super-mario-bros/manuals/
What's that again, about doing this just for "his" overlord?
here we are
again
remember guys, don't post angry!
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
It's more "something something almost no information".
It's a PR document that doesn't include crosstabs or the actual study results, so it's pretty much useless. If you read it through, you'll notice it deliberately avoids giving crosstabs or anything related to them or the nature of the study's questions, so it's actually extremely unenlightening and mostly just useless. How does it even define "gamer"? Who knows. It's written by an industry advocacy group, so you can guess what the lean in the presentation is gonna be.
It's irrelevant since the demographics of gamers doesn't suddenly allow them to be sexist regardless of what those demographics are. Just, you know, don't try and read anything in to those stats. They are useless.
Guess, what, it's a pretty damned good way to take the temperature of a community that is mainly based online. Unless the same 10 assholes have accounts on every game forum/comment section on the internet, yes, the game community is full of asshole misogynistic pricks, and the gaming community collective freakout over those videos is a perfect example of that.
It may seem logical to say "Oh, but those are a minority" when you can point to this forum, but go anywhere else and you'll see that most of the time even those who moderate community threads are super against any self reflection on this topic. The community is broken, the games are broken, and if you can't see that then you are either blind to sexism or you're being dishonest about your intent in this thread.
We're not saying that every game needs to have female options.
We're saying it needs to be more common, and that the balance found in Brink - more male customization which nobody can even see in-game at the expense of female characters - was the wrong one.
It only took, what? One page for me to be equated to misogynists. You just shed a light on the problem with this discussion and it's proponents. I'm sorry, I'm used to a level of discourse that is civil. I'll be going back to my normal corners of this board. Good day sir.
ok if you're going to discount the actual, real, literally-things-that-happened-to-women accounts as non-important because 'anecdotes and misunderstandings'
then i think i can surmise that you don't view this as a problem
well sir you have a long way to go
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Well, you seem to think whether or not the industry suffers from a problem with sexism is even up for discussion. It's not, for your information. The reason you don't see the problem is because you're it. It's pretty obvious that you're an ignorant, sexist, privileged, straight, white male. I feel sorry for you.
Also calling videogames art is not an excuse. Damn, I'm gonna put that line in my signature..
I'm going to be honest, and a bit of a dick, but I don't give a shit about the rest of your post. It is a collection of tired arguments that has been addressed in the thread OP, in the thread itself, and in the previous thread.
This, this however is a nice chunk to pull out and focus on.
I love this quote, and use bits of it all the time. It comes from Junot Diaz
Now, please to not focus on how this is specifically talking about how not to create shitty female characters. Draw your attention to the bolded.
The reason when we see such a skewed ration of males:females in regards to games protagonists we cry "sexism" is due the bolded. It is complex, to be sure, but at its heart it is because such disparity creates cultural asymmetry, which in turn creates sexism, which in turn goes back and creates more asymmetry.
The other point is, we have games about men. We have tons of games about me. The first video games were about men. Zelda is a game named after a woman, but the game is actually focusing on the man's story in the game.
It is no surprise that the industry is hostile to women, because it is the "man cave" through and through- people are making games about men for men, and whenever they are criticized, they lash out instead of trying to include.
So, I guess my answer to your post is- in a vacuum, no one cares who your protagonist is. However, we don't live in a vacuum, and the continual focus on male-only protagonists to the exclusion of all else sends messages, dogg.
no you know what i am fucking sick of this logic
IT'S NOT AN 'OPTION'
NO. NO NO NO NO.
it's not an 'extra' to make your game more welcoming to 50% of humanity. it's just not. it's common fucking sense.
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Her dominance and agency supersedes his on such a level that not only is she his matriarchal overlord, but his god-ruler. If he ever wants to see his friends again he must give his very life for her. It also implies that she has such power, that she is most likely capable of freeing herself, and is merely playing at being a prisoner to watch Mario (a veritable Jobe) suffer for her amusement. For someone over the power of life and death should be able to escape mere stone walls.
Hey, I'm not the one denying there's an issue here.
And yes, I'm comparing your posts and your lack of reading up on the subject to a negative element on the internet. Not necessarily any of those things you listed off, however.
Maybe a bit intellectually dishonest.
I guess I should provide the whole thing
At heart, "your inspiration is the same inspiration as everyone else's. Keep going. Push yourself to break out of the mold your culture has put around you. You are an artist, act like one. Push boundaries. Defy culture. Break tradition. Make art"
And that is what we (I) want to see in games.
I don't know if they are real. I just know they are anecdotes. You know what an anecdote is and why it's not actual evidence correct?
Wow.
Are you hear to play golf, or are you just fucking around?
No, in this case you're confusing "anecdotal evidence" with "evidence comprised of anecdotes"
THe former is usually down to a single person's experience
The latter is a picture made up of many, many, many people's stories, representing a significant portion of the group being represented
sir do you think if there was a police report or perhaps an email chain or some real hard evidence for each instance talked about that you'd accept it?
i mean for all we know, bullying is something whiners just make up, they're constantly telling anecdotes about it and it's not actual evidence.
and when they commit suicide over it, eh, that's not related to something anecdotal like bullying, right?
Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
Where is his friends threatened in the text? She has power over lifting a curse, you don't think that's different than escaping a prison? How does she watch Mario when she's locked in a castle far away? She doesn't have the power over life and death...
I find inserting details that are just not in the text. She can lift a spell, one spell, from her people; how does this give her the authority over life and death and also make her a god? I don't see your interpretation as valid because it's, plainly, making shit up.
Missing one post by you does not mean someone isn't interested in discourse. It could possibly mean that they missed it because of how fast attack the vultures are in this thread or any number of things. I've been insulted in a terrible way for daring to have a different opinion than the creator of this thread. Take a look in the mirror.
Hey, you seem to understand how reading too much into an 8bit video game with little text is so ridiculous.
The only one who can lift the spell on the Mushroom People and bring them back to life is the Mushroom Kingdom’s Princess Peach. You find me inserting details that aren't there in the text? Darn, now I feel like Anita.
I am still hanging out hope you are just doing this as an elaborate parody, but you really are serious aren't you? Have you even made any attempt to understand what the concept of agency is and why the overuse of feminine damsel in distress tropes in games is even about? Because right now you are just making shit up and expecting us to think this is somet amazing clever refutation.
It isn't.
I really don't see the reason for this line of thought. Why aren't we complaining about them not releasing Iron-woman 3 this weekend along side Iron-man 3?