[PATV] Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - Extra Credits Season 6, Ep. 8: Like a Ninja

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  • TarrkerTarrker PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    As a sort of "ninja" myself, I'm a little disappointed to yet have seen an accurate representation of the shinobi and their ideology in any video game. The Metal Gear games and Mark of the Ninja come really close but fall just short, I feel. I know there are other modern "ninja" out there but I doubt they are avid gamers like me. Still, I imagine they would feel the very same way.

  • hardluckhardluck Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    @OgreSamanosuke
    @regstacks

    It occurred to me that maybe trying to combine action and stealth isn't the way to go. They are often opposite and exclusive. The mention of the voyeristic aspect made me think what would it be like if someone combined stealth and adventure games. Not strictly in the way horror games do, where monsters are avoided and the narrative comes from objects, but the kind of game where narrative would advance by listening in on people talking. It seems a lot more rewarding use for stealth than just to have it as an option fighting.

    hardluck on
    Cynicism is a great help when trying to be sarcastic.
  • rrhrrh Registered User regular
    See Abe's Oddysee for a clear demonstration of the intersection between stealth and puzzle.

  • smilomaniacsmilomaniac Registered User regular
    The way I see it, stealth is ALL about power, being secure in the knowledge that you have the ability to do something that leaves the rest unaware of your actions. Power of self.
    My motorcycle is a good example.
    I went from a small, 500cc two cylindered sportsbike, to a 750cc four cylindered cruiser.
    I have more acceleration, more torque and a higher topspeed, but I don't use any of those tools unless I need them. So, on this cruiser of mine, I drive more carefully and comfortably, than I did on my comparatively underpowered sportsbike.

    I am secure in the knowledge that if I so wish, I could rev up the engine and outperform any average vehicle on the street, but I don't.

    I have the same approach to stealthgames. To me, combat is not the power, but takedowns are. Avoiding takedowns and relying on pure stealth is what I see as being truly powerful.

  • Vanila-Iced-TeeVanila-Iced-Tee Registered User new member
    Testy testy

  • Vanila-Iced-TeeVanila-Iced-Tee Registered User new member
    @likalaruku
    You should definitely try being a thief character in the elder scrolls games, and check out the thief games. Both pretty cool stealth experiences n a fantasy setting.

  • Luis GuimaraesLuis Guimaraes Registered User new member
    IMO the best stealth games are actually not puzzles. Play Crysis 1 trying to do side-quests without being spotted or killing anybody, it's awesome. Check the upcoming Sir You're Being Hunted, just looks great already. Those puzzle-stealth games that have many pre-made solutions for you, where guys stop right with their backs to the door or right bellow the pipe (Spliter Cell) are boring.

    What makes stealth actually nice is unpredictability. Go to Kongregate a play through Stealth Assasin 2, that's one of the most exciting stealth experiences ever.

  • AetrionAetrion Registered User regular
    I think one of the main reasons why stealth games are so hit and miss is because success is so binary in them. Either you successfully sneak up on someone or you don't, there is not a whole lot of granularity there like there is in a shooter where you have hitpoints, ammo and consumables, which mean you can win a fight while wasting a lot of resources, which essentially amounts to a degree of failure.
    Stealth games don't have that level of variance in what constitutes a success or a failure other than maybe costing you some time, and that's sort of what makes them obnoxious. If you played a shooter where every enemy died in one hit but could also kill you in one hit I'm sure a lot of people would feel a similar frustration.

    My favorite type of stealth gameplay is when combat and stealth mesh together seamlessly. I just love that. For example in Far Cry you frequently run into fights where you're hidding in a thicket somewhere on top of a hill firing at a whole camp of advancing badies who are trying to find you. In Deus Ex you could engage guards in wild firefights, quickly take one out, then disappear into a vent somewhere and emerge somewhere else. I think that's when stealth is at its most entertaining, when it's not used in a context of "Do this entire level without anyone seeing you" but as a defensive mechanism that you employ right in the middle of a fight.

  • rrhrrh Registered User regular
    @smilomaniac: A lot of stealth games I think the power element is about having better senses than your enemies. There's the radar in the MGS games, and Tenchu had that vibration thing to sense an enemy's distance even when you can't see them. And even without that, these games are full of enemies who seem to have no peripheral vision.

    The take down is common in the genre, but it's not as important as the sensory superiority, I think.

  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    The letters on his podium keep shifting from side to side and it drives me batty!

    steam_sig.png
  • meustrusmeustrus Registered User new member
    edited May 2013
    I have a great example of a non-stealth game that manages to pull off a stealth section perfectly: Metroid: Zero Mission. Building on the SA-X mechanics from Metroid Fusion, the epilogue portion of Zero Mission features Samus forced to sneak past enemies capable of killing her with only a few hits. The player isn't tempted to try and solve the problem with excessive force because Samus has been stripped of all the badassery she's been accumulating throughout the entire game. Although armed only with a delay-use stun gun, she does still retain all of her mobility. The stun gun even serves as an extra tool for opening passages, trapping enemies, and as a last-ditch attempt to get past an enemy despite having to deal with others storming in on you. And if you fail at the stealth? Run the frack out of there screaming "OH SHIT OH SHIT" until you can find a hiding spot and sit there for about 5 seconds (unless it only looks like a hiding spot, in which case, surprise!).

    Ultimately it works because the whole game includes skill-based puzzles, and then in the stealth section the player is forced to use those timing skills to avoid being killed instead of to snag the power-up. The reward for all this weakling-overcoming-huge-difficulty? Getting back all that badassery Samus had before *and more*. It's the right way to set up and conclude a stealth section. Going back through the whole area and effortlessly gunning down the Space Pirates that were just minutes before hunting you makes for a very satisfying return to Metroid action.

    meustrus on
  • mariusbcmariusbc Registered User new member
    The sniper level in CoD4 Modern Warfare is an amazing example of a great stealth level inside an action packed game.

  • RaginRednecKRaginRednecK Registered User regular
    Alpha Protocol, for all its flaws (mostly UI flaws), was one of those games that was able to be both a stealth title AND an action title at the same time by allowing the player the choice of how he wanted to advance through a level, hell I played through that game once with the goal of killing, alerting, or harming the absolute minimum number of combatants just to see if i could and STILL have the game be playable. Guess what not only was it still playable that title actually rewards whichever choice you want to make in a way that is appropriate for that choice. The DRM almost broke that game though......

  • padoylepadoyle Registered User regular
    A lot of people are mentioning this, but I think it's worth attempting to sum up:

    Stealth in action games CAN have a place; the key, however, is that it's a unique tool or approach that has its own benefits and pitfalls. Crytek knows how to do this, and in the first Crysis game and more recently in Far Cry 3 they do a fantastic job of making stealth gameplay feel like an option for the perfectionist rather than an obligation or a requirement.

    Notably, in Far Cry 3, there's dozens of bases to capture and all are relatively similar aside from maybe the surrounding terrain. But the wealth of options is so engaging. I can drive up in a car, jump out, and detonate with C4 while attempting to gun down everyone in sight. I can stay hidden and release a caged animal in the camp, and then clean up when all hell breaks loose. I can circle around, tagging enemies, planning meticulously, and then snipe them in just the right order so they can't reach the alarm to call reinforcements. This kind of variety, in which stealth is an alternative tool rather than a sudden expectation or shift in pacing, is where stealth in an action game can shine.

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