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[Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter] It might have become Winter.

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Posts

  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Entaru wrote: »
    Edit: You can also like a game mostly but not like parts of it. Shades of grey and all that.

    I said this in D&D chat the other day: if I criticize something, it's because I see room for improvement. If I thought it was awful, I'd just go "meh" and move on to another game.

    SeidkonaDarkewolfeDr_KeenbeanElvenshae
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    Edit: You can also like a game mostly but not like parts of it. Shades of grey and all that.

    I said this in D&D chat the other day: if I criticize something, it's because I see room for improvement. If I thought it was awful, I'd just go "meh" and move on to another game.

    See the entirity of the Warframe thread :P

    Honestly I dig it, I hope they sort pricing out (though I doubt it somehow) and introduce the idea of multiple specs you can buy once there's more than one paragon path but for the most part I'm really enjoying the game.

    Well, except control wizards in PVP, fuck those guys.

  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Thash grape! Registered User regular
    For me, I don't mind throwing a F2P game some money when I'm having fun with it, as my way of showing support with the added benefit that I get stuff for it. Like Echo said, it's more about the fact that they charge so damn much for things that bothers me and makes me not want to give them any money.

    Sure, I can grind these things out on my own and spend nothing, but chances are greater that, instead, I'll get bored with the game and quit without giving them anything. PWE is counting on the fact, it seems, that this doesn't matter at all because "Whales" will pay up anyways, making up the difference.

    am0n
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    @ironzerg It's still a product, and as consumers we have an interest in how we view the product.

    The problem here is that costs for MMO production are escalating, and developers have to monetize earlier to maintain production. That's understandable, people have to eat. The market won't bear holding off on release and then charging more, people will just go to lower cost entry-games.

    So developers are trying every idea they can to find the sweet spot of sustaining their business of producing a game we want to play. It's not a "high horse" to look at this model and say, "I am attached to the IP associated with this, and I want this game to succeed, therefore I disagree with this particular business model."

    If a game launches in an unready state but still accepts money, in the way this one might be, people can still enjoy it. The problem is that their burn-out point on supporting the game with money, on the whole, will be earlier, which will hurt the long term prospects of the game. We're seeing quite a bit of that now already with free to play games, where people rotate through games, spend less and then move on to the next cheap game, rather than investing in the one that really has the potential to be good.

    Anyway, you're building a straw man by saying there are people decrying the morality of this developer. No one is deeply offended to the core by the evils of this game. It's absolutely not unreasonable, though, to say that the way they're launching with content and a pay model isn't a good idea.

    What is this I don't even.
    SeidkonaAlbino BunnyElvenshae
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I gave Turbine a lot of money for LOTRO over the time I played it and I even have a Lifetime so I didn't even have to.

    The difference between the two is perceived value. I felt like I got enough from LOTRO when I decided to throw $10 or $20 at it and with Neverwinter I just don't.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
    am0n
  • Fartacus_the_MightyFartacus_the_Mighty Brought to you by the letter A.Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Calling a game in NW's state "beta" (open to the public, no wipes, cash shop takes your money) is entirely a CYA tactic by the publisher. It's like walking around with your fingers crossed behind your back all day so that you aren't technically bound by any promises you make.

    The real reason for it doesn't really have much to do with ordinary bugs or stability issues, since all games have those. It's more a last-ditch contingency in the event there's some kind of spectacular fuck up that results in people losing Zen/ADs/stuff bought with Zen or ADs. This isn't as much of an issue with subscription games, since you're basically paying for time instead of specific stuff.

    Not that I'm faulting Cryptic or PWE for anything in this particular case. It's only bullshit when they use it as an excuse for something, and so far they've done at least a fair job in all respects.

    Fartacus_the_Mighty on
    am0nSiskaElvenshae
  • CobellCobell Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    So we've got some lvl 50+s already right? Since respecs cost, I'm trying to plan out my feat tree, how many Paragon feats points do we get? 21? more?

    Essentially, are there just enough points to get the capstone for one of the 3 branches? or is there room to cap one and dip into a few extra feats?

    Cobell on
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    @darkewolfe People are complaining about the fact that it's open beta, but you can pay them money. Go back and read the last few pages of this thread and the other one.

    But the point is, no one has to give them any money for anything.

    If you want to complain that the cash shop prices at too high (which is a valid argument) then you're absolutely welcome to have that discussion. But that's not what I'm talking about, so please don't confuse the issues.

    People are complaining that Cryptic is charging people money in an open-beta, which I think is a pretty ridiculous thing to get upset about given the fact that you can absolutely and completely play the entire game without spending a single cent. There is, in fact, no charge for being in the "open beta". So in that way, there's absolutely no argument to be had about Cryptic being bad because they're accepting money.

    So yeah, $30 for a companion? $40 for a mount? $6 for a pack of dyes...yes, that's pretty expensive, so if we want to talk about that, we can.

    But Cryptic isn't charging people money for an open beta.

  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Yeah, the thing with Perfect World is that $10 gives you... not much of anything at all.

    And don't even get me started on their whole "pay for keys for lockboxes that might have something highly desirable in them".

    And the constant "A person who isn't you got an Epic Horsey!" in order to "entice" people into paying for keys for the lockboxes so they can get one too. It's to make you feel like lots and lots of people get the epic horseys so why don't you get one too?

    SeidkonaElvenshae
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    ironzerg wrote: »

    People are complaining that Cryptic is charging people money in an open-beta, which I think is a pretty ridiculous thing to get upset about given the fact that you can absolutely and completely play the entire game without spending a single cent. There is, in fact, no charge for being in the "open beta". So in that way, there's absolutely no argument to be had about Cryptic being bad because they're accepting money.

    So yeah, $30 for a companion? $40 for a mount? $6 for a pack of dyes...yes, that's pretty expensive, so if we want to talk about that, we can.

    But Cryptic isn't charging people money for an open beta.

    But are people saying this? I think the conversation is more "They are charging and not wiping characters so this really isn't a Open Beta as we know it and using it as an excuse for issues is sort of a lie."


    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
    Elvenshae
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Yeah, there are varying degrees of value versus consumer manipulative behavior across the spectrum of free games. League of Legends is held up as the most benign example of a game with high value and low consumer manipulation (though there is still, of course, SOME there. Again, people gotta eat.)

    Neverwinter, through Perfect World, is inching awfully close to the "shit" line of low value, high manipulation. The game is good, but the monetization system they chose sucks and that's that.

    And to be clear, I AM complaining about the open beta cash shop thing. I think it's disingenuous. The game is launched, and it's going to have a buggy launch. Call it what it is.

    What is this I don't even.
    PsychoCucumber
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    ironzerg wrote: »
    But Cryptic isn't charging people money for an open beta.

    Did anyone ever say that? Considering I've been reading both threads now.

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Entaru wrote: »
    I gave Turbine a lot of money for LOTRO over the time I played it and I even have a Lifetime so I didn't even have to.

    The difference between the two is perceived value. I felt like I got enough from LOTRO when I decided to throw $10 or $20 at it and here I just don't.

    Ding! Ding! Ding!

    This is the idea to build on. If I throw $15 (let's split the difference) at an MMO, I'd like to get more than some really basic quality of life stuff. I'd like some content, something fancy, and multiple things. Let me buy a backpack, a fancy cape, and a horse I'll phase out of in a dozen levels. Let me feel like my dollars are buying me some choice and some variety. Because I can take that $15 and buy a full single-player game without any locked content, sure... The production values on that value priced game wont be as high, and yeah... It might not be the same IP. But, it's not going to keep asking me for money.

    Price point in F2P MMO's is a point of serious contention. There's a little too much of a "caste" system being formed by people who justify those costs, and people who don't. Everyone gets at each other's throats about an over willingness or a lack of willingness to spend money. Instead of classifying people as "morons for spending that much" or "just spend money if you like the game GOSH!" We might want to look at these companies who set the prices, not that they are a great evil or anything (they are just trying to make money), but instead as just... Missguided.

    Personally, I think Neverwinter looks good, and plays well. I can't get over the fact that the basic quality of life stuff costs so much. The bill on "Stuff I feel would make my game experience more fun, or widgets I really want cause I'm a vain asshole, and some quality of life stuff" is more than a full priced game. On top of that, unless Perfect World is going to shatter the paradigm they've set up with STO, I know they they're going to keep asking me for money and keep locking content I want behind dollar bills. Which is fine! I don't expect to play for free, that's not the point and it's a god damn misnomer that we call this business model "Free to Play".

    What I do expect though, is to be respected as a consumer. Asking me for money for basic services, which historically hasn't been gated in premium games, which would cost as much or more than a premium game and a subscription... Then asking me for more, is a little insulting and frustrating.

    I like the game, and if I could just pay $15 a month and have access to everything (gate the vanity stuff behind quests or crafting), I'd gladly buy the box and give them my credit card for a few months. But the fact that they always tease me to spend money after I've spent money is really killing it for me.

    Anon the Felon on
    EchoSeidkonaAlbino BunnyDarkewolfeElvenshae
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    We'll see how things work out for Neverwinter. I think Star Trek Online has way more "whales" than D&D has.

    Delmain
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    IMHO game is good at respecting customers in terms of not making me feel shit for not paying money.

    It's just really bad at rewarding me for when I do give them money.

    Like making outfits default to faded green. Dicks.

    EchoSnicketysnick
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    ironzerg wrote: »
    But Cryptic isn't charging people money for an open beta.

    Did anyone ever say that? Considering I've been reading both threads now.
    If a game is at the point where they can take my credit card information and give me in-game benefits...

    That's no longer a beta. I don't care how 'complete' they think the game is. Apparently they think it's complete enough to open their cash shop. I understand the marketing reason behind it, but it's a shitty reason. Game companies need to stop releasing their products and then be in "open beta...except you can totally pay us 5 dollars for a hat!" for as long as they want. That's not what a beta is.



  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    We'll see how things work out for Neverwinter. I think Star Trek Online has way more "whales" than D&D has.

    Perhaps. I think they got away with this in STO because they managed to transition Cryptic's store into the PWE store. I'm not sure if you were around for that transition, but it wasn't like we woke up one day and prices doubled. It was slow and methodical. The player base acclimated to the new prices and model well, I think because the majority remembered the "good 'ol days" of Cryptic. NWO is a different case. We're not building on $5 ships and monthly content patches. It's hitting the ground running with $30 NPC companions.

    It's a hard pill to swallow when the lowest tier is almost the same cost as a happy hour dinner for two (where I live). Me? I'd rather go to dinner. I'll spend $30 on a cash shop without batting an eye, but for just one thing... Yikes.

    EchoAlbino Bunny
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited May 2013
    That's not saying that they charge for the beta. That's saying that the payments are implemented.

    Echo on
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    IMHO game is good at respecting customers in terms of not making me feel shit for not paying money.

    It's just really bad at rewarding me for when I do give them money.

    Like making outfits default to faded green. Dicks.

    I'd agree with this. If for example you could buy a bag for say £4 or a bag for all of your characters, old and new for £10, that would make things a bit better. On the other hand I think things may be balanced out in the long term by the fact that a good majority of Zen items can actually go on the AH/Be resold. Which incidentally is the one thing that SWTOR's ftp model got right.

    7qmGNt5.png
    D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I'd rather them charge me a reasonable ($20 or so) amount for new classes but make all of the store stuff account wide as opposed to free classes and per character purchases.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Would I feel less ripped off if I was just paying $15 a month for a subscription? If yes, monetization model is bad.

    What is this I don't even.
    SeidkonaEchoToxic Pickleam0nArthilErin The Red
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    If anyone's interested about learning about the foundry I just found this from one of the game's producers.

    Video Foundry Walkthrough

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • grouch993grouch993 Both a man and a numberRegistered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Page- wrote: »
    Ran into my first real dumbness.

    I was given the quest to do a skirmish, but I've outlevelled it and apparently there's no way to manually enter a skirmish once it's not available in the queue. Looks like this quest will be impossible to complete now.

    The fun parts? If you are in a dungeon or skirmish and out level before it is completed, you will not get quest credit. Aka, hit a level while in the dungeon.

    If you have a daily quest that requires a particular skirmish or dungeon to be run and you out level that, that daily is not able to be completed. Has to be abandoned and get the next one.

    And levels come very quick past 30. I wasn't even trying last night and went from 47-50 with a couple foundry missions and about eight quests. Followed by abandoning a bunch of dailies and heading back to town to pick up new ones.


    *edit*

    On the crafting, is there any point to running the rare quests? At level 8 leadership for 12 hours of time I can get less than the 2 hour protect the caravan mission.

    grouch993 on
    Steam Profile Origin grouchiy
  • CobellCobell Registered User regular
    grouch993 wrote: »
    Page- wrote: »
    Ran into my first real dumbness.

    I was given the quest to do a skirmish, but I've outlevelled it and apparently there's no way to manually enter a skirmish once it's not available in the queue. Looks like this quest will be impossible to complete now.

    The fun parts? If you are in a dungeon or skirmish and out level before it is completed, you will not get quest credit. Aka, hit a level while in the dungeon.

    If you have a daily quest that requires a particular skirmish or dungeon to be run and you out level that, that daily is not able to be completed. Has to be abandoned and get the next one.

    And levels come very quick past 30. I wasn't even trying last night and went from 47-50 with a couple foundry missions and about eight quests. Followed by abandoning a bunch of dailies and heading back to town to pick up new ones.

    Seems like a horrid design decision (especially given how fast you level in the game). Why wouldn't you want people to play (and get credit for) older content?

  • RizziRizzi Sydney, Australia.Registered User regular
    Is there any real value in the $60 founders pack? Or is it better to just play without paying anything?

  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Rizzi wrote: »
    Is there any real value in the $60 founders pack? Or is it better to just play without paying anything?

    There is about $12 worth of Astral Diamonds (using current AD to Zen conversions) in there, a pretty nice starter weapon that makes the initial leveling process easier, and an extra character slot.

    The rest of it comes down to if you like the cosmetics or not.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Hey Entaru, since you are here

    Great OP-, but I think the coins need to be talked about

    Namely the Ardent and Celestial coins, because this mechanic is A) useful and B) kind of evil

    I will write it for you!

    Ardent Coins: You get one of these coins per day, the first time you do an Invocation. These are permanent coins, unlike their counterparts, and can be spent in the Vault of Piety to gain seals, potions that give long buffs, or saved to purchase mounts, weapons, and even a Guardian Angel companion (although this takes 360 coins)

    Celestial Coins: These are temporary, fleeting pieces of currency that you can use to buy rare crafting materials and enchantments for your gear. The catch? You get one per day, to a maximum of seven...and they disappear if you forget to pray daily. Sorry atheist cleric roleplayers, none for you!

    Seidkona
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    The celestial coin packs don't look like something particularly worth coveting, at least.

    What is this I don't even.
  • CorriganXCorriganX Jacksonville, FLRegistered User regular
    The crafter items are super useful. Also if you buy in the $60 pack you get a 110% speed horse at level 20. At 20 you wouldn't have the gold to buy a regular 50% mount, and would probably be level 25 before then.

    n1woEHJ.png
    CorriganX on Steam and just about everywhere else.
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    @Arch Added to the OP. Thanks!

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
    Arch
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    The celestial coin packs don't look like something particularly worth coveting, at least.

    Like Corrigan said, the crafting mats are really good, and the enchantments aren't bad either

  • DecoyDecoy Registered User regular
    The direwolf taunts me... other than that the rest is window dressing to me.

  • Catastrophe_XXVICatastrophe_XXVI Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    Well, I have not had a chance to try this out yet. But after playing GW2 since launch, I can say that the freemium model can work so much better than how most games are handling it.

    Edit: yes, I had to buy GW2 for $50 or $60. But never once have I felt like it wasn't worth and never once have I felt the need to spend real money on it since. However, I see why some people do spend real $.

    Edit 2: I'm also coming off of the Marvel Heroes beta and being appalled at what they are charging.

    Catastrophe_XXVI on
    PSN ID: Catastrophe_xxvi
    3DS FC: 5086-1134-6451
    Shiny Code: 3837
    Vae
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Rizzi wrote: »
    Is there any real value in the $60 founders pack? Or is it better to just play without paying anything?

    It has a 110% speed mount for all your characters, and one extra character slots. That alone isn't worth $60, but it's pretty damn nice.

    Blood Drive
  • Catastrophe_XXVICatastrophe_XXVI Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    Rizzi wrote: »
    Is there any real value in the $60 founders pack? Or is it better to just play without paying anything?

    It has a 110% speed mount for all your characters, and one extra character slots. That alone isn't worth $60, but it's pretty damn nice.

    just an upfront $60 cost and everything is free after that? what's the, "play without paying anything" part?

    PSN ID: Catastrophe_xxvi
    3DS FC: 5086-1134-6451
    Shiny Code: 3837
  • Toxic PickleToxic Pickle Thash grape! Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    You can play without paying anything, but you only get 2 character slots, and have to pay for your own mount (in-game currency or real $$$ for a better/prettier one). Whatever weapons and armor you use are found in-game and you don't get any cash shop money or cosmetic items. That's pretty much it.

    Linky: http://nw.perfectworld.com/founderspack/guardian

    I'm kinda tempted by this package... I think I'd be instantly sold if only it contained extra inventory for all my characters.

    Toxic Pickle on
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    Also, so far (I think) all cosmetic items are fashion only, meaning out of combat stuff without stats. So yeah, purely cosmetic.

    I'd expect them to add weapon/armor skins eventually.

  • QuintessinQuintessin Registered User regular
    The mount. If you make 2 characters, the mount from the $60 pack is worth it. Companion, too. The mount is 110% speed (Which I think in the Zen store, cost $40 EACH CHARACTER) and the Companion is Max-Rank 30, also worth $30 a piece. The $60 pack gives you the Mount+Companion on every character.

    Echo
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited May 2013
    I've improved the readability of the OP.

    Seidkona on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    Cobell wrote: »
    grouch993 wrote: »
    Page- wrote: »
    Ran into my first real dumbness.

    I was given the quest to do a skirmish, but I've outlevelled it and apparently there's no way to manually enter a skirmish once it's not available in the queue. Looks like this quest will be impossible to complete now.

    The fun parts? If you are in a dungeon or skirmish and out level before it is completed, you will not get quest credit. Aka, hit a level while in the dungeon.

    If you have a daily quest that requires a particular skirmish or dungeon to be run and you out level that, that daily is not able to be completed. Has to be abandoned and get the next one.

    And levels come very quick past 30. I wasn't even trying last night and went from 47-50 with a couple foundry missions and about eight quests. Followed by abandoning a bunch of dailies and heading back to town to pick up new ones.

    Seems like a horrid design decision (especially given how fast you level in the game). Why wouldn't you want people to play (and get credit for) older content?

    To encourage you to roll an alt to see what you missed, and thus pay them $6 for a new character slot. :rotate:

    ZvOMJnu.png
    - The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
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