First thing is first... If James is really a Jaguars fan, I just want to say thank you for handing us Andrew Luck. Greatly appreciated.
Now, on to what I really wanted to talk about. Your misdirection at the start of the video is ridiculous. I can guarantee you that if a top MOBA player spent some time in prison for killing dogs, he wouldn't be banned from playing the game when he got out. Neither would someone who was indicted (but never convicted) of double homicide. Why should you hold a pro sports league accountable for something like that, when the moderators of a gaming community wouldn't either? It's a logical fallacy, and it made it very hard to take anything else you had to say in this video seriously.
The only thing worse than a bad loser is a bad winner. Trash talkers are automatically in a lower class of player than the true elites. It's the difference between, "They are good." and "They are good, but such jerks."
Skill speaks for itself.
Yes, we shouldn't learn how to deal with people *saying things we don't like* to us, we need the entire world to adhere to the sensibilities of the lowest common denominator. Why ignore or mute the guy, when you can complain that you're being victimized instead? Especially when embracing and celebrating victimhood entitles you to all sorts of things, like de facto moral superiority.
I have a vastly overly competitive mentality that is really quite ugly in many situations. This is one of the primary reasons that I tend to avoid MP competitive games as I really might blow a circuit and say things I later regret.
Trash talk and abusive behavior should not be equated. If someone is trying to piss off the other team to gain an advantage; that is abusive behavior not genuine trash talk.
Think about it this way: two boxers are interviewed before a boxing match, they both trash talk each other, they beat the crap out of each other (it's boxing, thats what they do) in the fight, one wins a belt and a purse [insert joke here] the other wins a smaller purse. They run into each other in a bar the next day, what do they do? They sit down and have a drink. Yeah they trash talked each other before the fight but it was trash talk, it was facetious.
The problem in anything competitive is not trash talk, it's abusive behavior. But (inappropriately at the beginning of a sentence) there are many who behave abusively towards other players and defend it as trash talk. When they do that, they should be called out on not just the abusive behavior but their bullshit defiance as well, tell them trash talk is supposed to be facetious, it's supposed to be friendly ribbing, not abusive and what they are doing is a abusive. Take their defense away.
Oh, I fear this video being used as an argument against people who blame other people and somesuch. What if they start blaming Extra Credits for trying to put the fuzz down?
Really, if someone is so inclined to blame others for not doing as well as they hoped or likes to put others down when they DO perform well, any attempt to get through to them via speaking to them they'll interpret as a threat to their way of life. They're going to get defensive, and trash-talkers and the verbally abusive will do so even more as that defense mechanism for both sore losers and sore winners.
The best course of action, I believe, it to mute them. They yell at you to get their attention. Once it becomes clear it's not happening, they DO calm down.
P.S. I'm so glad Mario Kart Wii doesn't have voice chat. Its Battle Mode would've been hell. It's team-based (with a cumulative score), has a strong element of chance, and, unlike the races, seems to have a wide gap in skill with a few really good players and a bunch of average to bad ones. (You can see this in how in most matches, one or two people from each team will hold more Coins or points than everyone else combined.)
good stuff, but i feel there is one crucial,vital thing that you kinda missed: it's like the pivot of betterment, and an integral part of fixing everything (including the gaming community).
If there is a fault, and in all honesty you see that it might be yours, do the following:
ADMIT.THE.DAMN.FAULT
TAKE.THE.DAMN.FAULT
ACCEPT.THE.DAMN.FAULT
LEARN.FROM.IT
claiming responsibility for one's actions is becoming a lost moral.
I'm going to have to disagree with a single point here.
From personal experience playing MMOs more often than not it's the better player passing around blame, not the worse players. Typically the people who aren't doing as well argue that they know they're not doing so well, but they're trying their best to get better. However, the best players who know the game and their class inside and out and already have gear that far outstrips everyone else will complain that everyone is doing horribly, and everyone should be as good as them. Sometimes this kind of toxisity is simply blaming, but more often than not it's a way for the good player to lord over the other players with his superior playing ability and the gear he has because of it. You see it all the time in World of Warcraft in raids. A player joins a raid simply to be better than everyone else. They feel good by showing people just how much better they are at the game.
Trash talk is absolutely important to gaining a competitive edge, and the best players are hardly the most silent.
By all accounts, Michael Jordan was an absolute douchebag when it came to talking smack, but he always backed it up and thus managed to get in people's heads throughout his illustrious career.
Reggie Miller famously trash-talked John Starks to the point of actually getting him ejected from the game when he finally retaliated physically, leading to a win for the Pacers.
Plus, beating someone who is talking trash is always extra satisfying, and I don't want to take that away from people who don't particularly enjoy doing it themselves.
Kids will tease each other. Been doing it since before written history.
Then combine that with the longstanding history of trash talking in competitions -- Going back to snide remarks and pep-talks prior to battles on the fields of wars.
Now add the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad
(Apologies for language, that's just what it's called)
Given all that: You posit this is a 'problem' among 'gamers', and further that it's one which stands a chance of being 'fixed'? Seems this is just yet another episode where EC folks don't really know what they're talking about... It sounds noble, but is ultimately naive. Also: See any oppressed people for examples of what 'fixing' such things entails. The medicine is far worse than the disease.
The answer is to give the folks who don't want to hear the potty-mouth the means to not hear it. Online: Muting and Party-Chat does wonders. It's the main benefit of XBL, in my opinion. Being able to join a chat with friends and ignore the vitriol is really great -- Though, I'd like more fine-grained control where I could still participate in game-chat when in party chat. You mention investment, but as expected, fail to apply it properly to the problem at hand. Getting to know each other adds incentive for niceness: You stand to lose a relationship you've invested time in. Also, some of my 'friends' were selected precisely for their humorous and silly trash talking skills -- It doesn't always have to be profane or negative.
In real life: being open about the rules and not playing favorites with how they're enforced is key. Many Fighting Game tournaments encourage the hyped up trash talk to heighten the spectacle. It makes for a good circus. Attendees are free not to attend such places without rules prohibiting trash talk. Not all tournaments have the same rules. As in online, players merely need the capability to remove themselves from the situation in order to 'solve' the problem of experiencing vitriolic language.
The icing on the cake is when, despite proposing a solution be found for the comically difficult problem of trash talk, you additionally attempt to address Blame Shifting -- Another human trait going back to the first failed collaborative effort, I'm sure. Are we gamers or psychologists? If psychology could solve such things, don't you think we would have by now?
One thing I'm forced to recall is the universal truth that you can control no action but your own. I can not control your actions. I could say a long string of expletives, or simply "I love kittens." Either could offend you, and I couldn't do anything about it. That's why it's called "taking offense" -- I can't make you be offended, you must take the offense yourself. In a similar vein, I make it a point to assign worth to words from only those I deem worthy. This episode isn't worthless, in my opinion, but close to it. You may take my opinion in the same light, or you could get so offended you strive to do a bit more research before making these silly videos -- I can't control, and thus can't care, which.
If you think fixing this attitude in games will do anything, why not come down to Sydney? You can see a city full of nearly 5 million people who treat each other like this in real life every day. It's the League of Legends community irl. And just like in LoL, when you find more than half of your 'paying' playerbase are these assholes, you just have to learn to let it slide and leave the community. Nothing you can say or do will fix it, nor will any attempts by the community without killing yourself. Hopefully I can afford to get out of Sydney before one of those asshole drivers who decides pedestrians suck enough to run a red light and run me over (for the 4th time) does it fast enough to kill me...
Blaming mana screw is kind of hard for me to put in as blame-shifting.
You can legitimately lose any chance of winning to bad luck, no matter what you do, and that's just a fact of the game - it's not really shifting if you're pointing to the actual root cause.
The constant spill of hatred in a game I do not understand, such as that in the Cross Assault thing. I think that doing so belittles oneself more than what the desired effect is. I usually experience trash talk from people I do not even know who are arrogant and feel they need to spew epithets and racial slurs around as if it makes them a better player. If I hear it, I just mute them. it isn't something I wish to hear.
With that being said, I do engage in cursing and some rage in games. Mostly in games with friends who I actually care to hear my voice. However, I don't try to demean or belittle someone based on racial bias or whatever, it tends to be, "YOU expletive-deleted". By saying that phrase with friends it is playful because, in most cases, they were able to outsmart me or get the upper hand. In my mind it's just being playful and friends having fun. The only time I will engage in anything remotely close to trash talk is when I am absolutely terrible at a game. Marvel VS capcom online for example. And even then, it's more like playing with a delusional idiot who yells "I WIN!" when they have clearly lost.
I respect your commentary that as a "world community" we need to constantly put ourselves in check and be the best human beings we can be but as a hard core gamer I don't want to hold a kindergarten class while playing these games either.
1 Children shouldn't be on the internet without adult supervision, that's a hard fact you need to face.
2 They are.
3 As a paying consumer I am taxed by developers to make this game possible for them.
4 I don't want to spend my time babysitting either, I want to enjoy my free time ~ relaxing.
Developers almost across the board do not cater to those that spend inumerable hours and money on these games they sell to the broadest possible audience. When they don't even have the respect for the consumer that pays their paycheck by offering an Elo system a tiered experience system or any other possible allowance to sepparate the adults that want their free time spent well I have no respect for the company and no patience for the players.
I don't believe in this "online utopia" where all players are equal given the chance, they aren't face it. Deal with it and stop encouraging / peddling this online communistic garbage. Or in the very least place half the blame on terrible game design that doesn't meet the needs of the adult player.
I play World of Tanks on a regular basis, and stop right there before you go "but world of tanks has a pro-game away from mouth breathers, windowlickers, zit poppers and thumbsuckers" It doesn't it has an over zealous time sink for the unemployed and cave dwellers. Opposite ends of the playability spectrum does not a satisfied core audience make.
It REALLY chaps my hide to see that this commonality argument is used when there has been zero advancement in the area of populace segregation based on enjoyment needs. It not only lazy, it looks more like "monetization/microtransaction/metrics" bs.
Do I need to say more? Because I will, I don't come home from work wanting to sip a beer and playa game with other adults, to instead go .. no I should just go over to my neighbors house and babysit his children for the rest of te night.
You don't do it I hope, don't expect hard core players to either~ it's ludicrous.
And furthermore reading some of the comments~ This isn't an accountability/anominity issue only. This is a player accountability problem. When you are crammed in with people that don't speak the common language,people that are drunk,people that have severe handicaps, people that are too young or ignorant to comprehend the game even in the basic W,A,S,D movement, people that play on a team as a part of a whole and don't even consider winning a match impotant and putting thsoe players in with thsoe that do is not only demoralizing but frankly disrespectful for thsoe who do want to have fun being competitive~ without being forced into the ooposite corner of ONLY the hardest core pro play.
And another thing I agree wholeheartedly with the posters that say you have no clue about hard core players ~ the botb. MOST swear like sailors, that doesn't make it right or something I want to be around that is a sociological fact. If you don't like that James, don't play games where people have feelings and are driven to win. Jump on a hard core vent server sometime, they don't talk to you because they don't respect you but they tell their friends exactly what they think. Grading the quality of demenaor from the outside doesn't net you the real people behind the masks.
When you push yourself it hurts, and that is an emotional state you aren't gonna relase by asking the neighbor over for a cup of chai tea and vanilla cookies.
I get where you're coming from. I used to play sports back in High School and there was a guy on our basketball team who was a MASTER of trash talk. His name was Dan, and no he wasn't Dan Floyd of EC. Anyway, Dan was a pretty nice guy off the court, but he HATED losing. Just practicing against him was intimidating. He knew how to get into your head and prey on your insecurities on the court with just a few words. And it DID give him an edge against insecure or rookie players. Dan kept it well within "acceptable" levels and so nothing was done about it. One thing about Dan's psychology though: he derived all his enjoyment from WINNING. Playing for its own sake wasn't enough any more. That mentality eventually led to several injuries because Dan valued winning over his own health. I get where that competitive drive comes from and I've seen it openly encouraged in physical sports.
In an online setting, particularly in an "e-sport" environment, you've got this same "ultra competitive" kind of player rubbing shoulders constantly with kids under the age of twelve and people just out to play for the fun of playing. Not to mention all the Jerks and the Griefers. And each and every one of them is anonymous. It's like forcing each member of the starting line to play 5 on 5 with 4 random kids from the lunch room. If your fun comes JUST from winning, or beating someone else, it's HELL.
I have a real problem with the current trend of "e-sports as marketing." In games like World of Tanks and League of Legends you're going to see pretty much EVERY player try to make it in the ladders. Those that don't tend to be treated like second-class citizens. "Normal" games wind up feeling like a public basketball court where the jocks can show up at any time, kick you around for a while to blow off some steam and then leave, never mind the fact that you're still trying to play and have fun at the same time. The various player "subcultures" never completely separate. Trying to "rank" players and separate them based on some kind of "skill" measurement only makes it worse.
Unfortunately, skill is not and has never been the real problem. The problem is just a simple lack of consideration. Getting stuck with a noob is no reason to sound off on the guy for "holding you back" or making mistakes. But this idea that the answer lies solely with players moderating their own behavior is just as inconsiderate and short-sighted as yelling at a newbie for being new. This desire to look for something or someONE else to blame really IS wired into our heads, and we DO need to get past it to be good players. Except most people never will. Scapegoating is more mentally comfortable than self-improvement. Its the same reason why people tend not to give to charities unless the charity's "cause" has already touched those people's lives or why we offer excuses for being late or forgetting to call someone, even when it's completely our fault.
Competitive people see non-competitive or unskilled players as the problem while non-competitive players see trash-talking and ego as the problem. Its a fundamental mismatch in attitude. And Jerks are still Jerks and there will always be Jerks. The problem, then, is human nature. And even GENOCIDE hasn't worked as a cured for that.
I see a lot of people here defending trash talk and by doing so trying to argue with the ideas promoted in this EC episode.
"you keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means"
Trash talk is about challenging, tongue on cheek, defiance. Ali's trash talk used to defy his adversaries, to poke fun at their weakness and to inspire us to believe in his own super-human capabilities.
Trash talk when done right has a bit of a poetic tune to it. Like coaches banters and friends dissing each other. Its consensual, in a way, polite, funny and when well done it inspires fans on both sides of the table. BTW what M.Tyson did in that video further down is not trash talking and obviously by no means was he ever considered a good sportsman.
On the other end its toxic and abusive behaviour. Which is only funny if you have a very particular (and childish) sense of humour. Its offensive, personal, not polite and usually drive the most sensible or least interested in backyard-trailer-park-low-brow conversations, to a rage or even worst, to a depression. Toxic or abusive behaviour has no place in sports or any other sort of competition, and people that use it are ALWAYS marked as very poor sportsmen.
Its not because a lot of people use or does something that we shouldn't advocate to better ourselves.
Not saying toxic and abusive behaviour is not effective to some degree, but lets face it; you are not a professional, you are just playing a video game to entertain yourself before its time to eat again. There's nothing at stake here besides your ego, and you're being rude and offensive to other human beings who never gave you permission for it, and who might even be extremely sensible to that kind of behaviour, just so you can win a nigh time hobby? That says a lot more about you then your hobby of choice.
While I'm not advocating trash talk, I do feel that I need to point out something to those of you who play with us Aussies a lot and think we trash talk a lot more than normal. It's kind of a cultural thing that we jokingly insult each other - like calling someone a lucky bastard for winning a couple of hundred on the lotto. And it transfers over into games, but not always reliably.
With voice chat, tone of voice can make it clear that we're only joking. I've heard people congratulate their killer on their marksmanship in the same breath that they call them a bastard or the like (although worse words than 'bastard' comes up very rarely and only among Aussies who are already kinda foul-mouthed).
But with text chat, well... I'll be honest - you see an Aussie insult you through text and unless his choice of words make the tone clear, it's even odds he's complimenting you or genuinely insulting you. Good rule of thumb is what swear-words he's using, their severity and how many of them. If he's complimenting you, he'll probably keep it short with only one or two swear words (if he calls you something like a 'lucky c**t' then he's probably complimenting you - that word has very little impact these days and some of our more foul-mouthed gamers use it as a compliment) whereas if he's genuinely, toxically trash-talking you, then he's going to use a lot of foul language (and if you're really lucky, he'll have the decency to be a bit creative with it).
So if you're ever playing with some of us from the other end of the world and think some of them are insulting you; pay attention to their tone of voice and choice of words. They could just be congratulating you or each other in our usual manner. It's just part of the national pass-time of screwing with foreigners. :P
I think people need to learn to trash talk the enemy not their allies. Before people get mad that I'm defending trash talking hear me out. Obviously this shouldn't carry over into all chat, but it's a good "out" that can build up the team instead of hurt it.
For instance, while playing a pickup basketball game, if the opponent gets a nice 3 on your team mate you don't tell them they suck, or rage at them, instead you trash talk the opponent to your teammate. "just stick with it, dude got lucky". It's not usually heard only by the person who didn't put up a good enough defense, but it's still a good out for any frustration.
I think this is something that would be beneficial to bring to the gaming scene. As an avid League of Legends player, when someone starts raging at another player, the teamwork just collapses and your chances of winning dwindle by a lot. I like his ideas for "outs" but sometimes people just can't handle attributing it to OP champs or such. The problem is the players. So rather then bashing your own, bash the enemy. It sounds really rude, but as long as you keep it out of all chat, all it's doing is building up your team, it isn't hurting anyone. Online gaming is the only team sport I know of where straight bashing your allies is commonplace and I think that should stop.
Because of boorish players I've encountered, I nearly quit TF2 after my first game 3 years ago. I was completely new, trying to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of the nine classes, when some guy inexplicably began mocking my username for no reason other than my apparent noobishness. Within seconds, the entire server began following the leader, soon moving on to a barrage of denigrating comments about race (even though I'm primarily white), gender (even though I'm a guy) and sexuality (even though I'm straight). Of course, I didn't bother trying to correct them, incorrectly assuming that they'd go back to the game and forget I was even there. Unfortunately, they didn't, and one comment I still recall years later drove me off of the server and away from Team Fortress 2 for months.
It was as follows: "Why the fuck are you here, you gay-ass noob? Are your parents too fucked up to deal with you? I hope they beat your faggot ass every fucking night. Just go kill yourself so they don't have to deal with you anymore."
Maybe it was the utterly hateful way he said it to me, who he doesn't even know, maybe it was the fact I was new to the game, but this was the only time where a douche on the internet actually drove me away from a game. So guys, I implore you: If you rage at your server or act like an ass to others for any reason, STOP. It may be a release to you, but think about the other guy. If he's playing a game you enjoy, maybe he likes it too. Maybe it's his first time playing. Maybe your xeno/homo/theophobic attitude is going to drive him away from the game, maybe for life, and the what are you? Victorious? Successful? No. You're an asshole whose tactic for getting an edge has fractured your community as a whole. So next time you see a noob struggling to get a hold on a game, don't mock him, give him pointers. If that's too hard, then stop talking and play the game.
Because of boorish players I've encountered, I nearly quit TF2 after my first game 3 years ago. I was completely new, trying to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of the nine classes, when some guy inexplicably began mocking my username for no reason other than my apparent noobishness. Within seconds, the entire server began following the leader, soon moving on to a barrage of denigrating comments about race (even though I'm primarily white), gender (even though I'm a guy) and sexuality (even though I'm straight). Of course, I didn't bother trying to correct them, incorrectly assuming that they'd go back to the game and forget I was even there. Unfortunately, they didn't, and one comment I still recall years later drove me off of the server and away from Team Fortress 2 for months.
It was as follows: "Why the fuck are you here, you gay-ass noob? Are your parents too fucked up to deal with you? I hope they beat your faggot ass every fucking night. Just go kill yourself so they don't have to deal with you anymore."
Maybe it was the utterly hateful way he said it to me, who he doesn't even know, maybe it was the fact I was new to the game, but this was the only time where a douche on the internet actually drove me away from a game. So guys, I implore you: If you rage at your server or act like an ass to others for any reason, STOP. It may be a release to you, but think about the other guy. If he's playing a game you enjoy, maybe he likes it too. Maybe it's his first time playing. Maybe your xeno/homo/theophobic attitude is going to drive him away from the game, maybe for life, and the what are you? Victorious? Successful? No. You're an asshole whose tactic for getting an edge has fractured your community as a whole. So next time you see a noob struggling to get a hold on a game, don't mock him, give him pointers. If that's too hard, then stop talking and play the game.
@ The Creped Crusader - I could not possibly agree more. I think the people who indiscriminately defend trash talk may not realize exactly to what lengths others will go to "get the edge." There's a difference between actually playing a psychological game or kidding around, and just being a worthless dick.
Fundamentally getting better at the game requires knowing what is and isn't good in specific situations. Not openly blaming someone if it is their fault will help NO one get better. The problem is the player base isn't playing to get better, this isn't the FGC. They are playing to 'smoke some nubs'. Just lying to them isn't going to help them any better than telling them they did something wrong. Just with lying you are sacrificing your own integrity when it comes to truly trying to get better.
Granted, there is a pretty large difference between "We lost this game because the enemy jungler was able to camp lanes unopposed, our jungler or mid should have been on top of that." and "HOLY FUCK OUR JUNGLER FUCKING UNINSTALLL" which I think is a more common version of that.
I'll start by saying that I don't trash talk beyond mild playful banter with people I play with regularly. The way I handle those who do trash talk in ways that bother me is to mute them. I rarely play competitively but when I do, I consciously avoid getting frustrated with how my opponent is playing. When I get frustrated in casual play, I've learned to walk away, a lesson that many gamers just haven't figured out.
Trash talk is not the same as raging at teammates. One is a skill and weapon used against opponents while the other is an inappropriate outlet for anger. Yes, trash talking can cross social lines which are not acceptable to cross (sexism, racism, religious slurs) and punishment for those who cross it is agreeable. That said, offensive slurs are generally not the most effective tactic. People who are good at getting in the minds of opponents attack their psychological weaknesses. It can seem cruel but as long as both parties understand that it doesn't go outside of the game, life is good. The problem here is usually the victim, especially lower level competitive players.
Personally, I don't think that trash talking has any place in random matchmaking or most pubs. There are some pubs operated by clans where it's a part of the culture and that's great but in random matchmaking, I'm not a fan. I'll also point out that trash talking only works in games with all talk and best in person. This means that it's natural for games like fighters. For games like FPSes, it really doesn't work since you aren't near enough to your opponent for them to hear you.
Yes, having a drawn out losing match is a struggle, but it makes those infrequent comebacks all the more sweeter. Your worth as a gamer and a team player are tested in those times and if you're just going to give up when things aren't going your way then you're probably one of those 'flailing' players EC mentions when they start pointing blame.
When the outcome of the effort you put in is determined by the actions of others then blame will always spring from the people with the weaker team work. Anyone who has worked on a collaborative project knows that blame solves nothing and you might as well work harder if you want to succeed.
TD is right about what makes traditional MOBAs so incredibly frustrating, especially on a casual level. One bad player on your team of five can lose you the match in the first 10 minutes and you can be stuck there for another 50 minutes. Yeah, you theoretically could come back but having a bad player on your team in MOBAs not only makes your team less effective but makes more opponents more effective. In the best situations, this leads to a faster end to the game (a 35-40 minute match) or even a surrender but it's usually drawn out. The worst situation is getting stuck with two bad players or, worse yet, griefers who refuse to surrender. Quitting a match early punishes players, creating more frustration and a sense of imprisonment. It's just plain bad news bears.
As an Aussie I can surely attest that people do take things the wrong way regarding what we say as competitive or complimentary banter (not extreme). Just so we're clear, Aussie's aren't rude, we're just misunderstood.
However I believe it's also important that as Aussies, we respect the rules and regulations regarding boundaries of competitive trash talk. While it is in our culture, in no way do we have to right to impose that as reasoning to break the rules and restrictions placed on competitive trash talk. If our cultural form of banter is deemed acceptable or at least we can explain it is (and accepted) then I say go nuts, otherwise we should respect the culture that the game makers are trying to encourage and refrain from using words that will cause misunderstanding.
Regarding any competitive game that anyone has played, fact is we all started from somewhere and were probably helped along the way by another individual (direct or not) so if we're going do them justice then we gotta learn to follow in their steed and help those below us. Some people just don't adapt fast enough to the game as other people do but that is in no way a justified reason to bash at them just you can adapt quicker. Instead we should strive to build a better community through helping out said players whether thats from tips and tricks to learning basic skills like map awareness. All of this is in the greater pursuit of a better community of the game.
As Extra Credits have stated before, "The use of social constructs as a means to abuse another player and justifying that as the norm of culture within the gaming community is just not good enough " and quite frankly a load of bullshit.
I understand that as a "gamer" we are suppose to be oblivious to sports and what goes on, but you could have done a little research with Ray Lewis to see that the murder charges against Lewis were dismissed in exchange for his testimony against Oakley and Sweeting, and his guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstruction of justice. However I can see how its just easier to label the jock as a murderer because you got beat up in high school or something like that. And no I am not a Ravens fan or Ray Lewis fan. I am a gamer and a sports fan. Go Cowboys and Spurs!
Part of me kind of misses the Xbox One's planned DRM measures. If you were banned, you'd lose your games. A bit harsh, sure, however it'd be a real consequence that would give virulent players a real consequence to being toxic.
What about when you're trying to coach others? Does that elitism deserve lashback?
In LoL, I often try to call MIAs, ask people to check various buffs' locations, etc. No, I don't do build advices-I think that's a very personal thing. But often, whether winning or losing, saying things like "Enemy A is missing from top lane, will get to mid in 8sec. Ready to pull back" will often get people VERY riled up against me. Most often, people will tell me to STFU, etc, for actually trying to relay info.
"Can I get a hand at x tower/dragon/buffs/etc?" is just as bad. Or things like "We can stall them with 4 ppl--you keep pushing"...oh, how people hate seeing strategic choices being made. I guess maybe I'm ordering them around too much? I think I did them rather nicely...but yeah, never worked, man.
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Now, on to what I really wanted to talk about. Your misdirection at the start of the video is ridiculous. I can guarantee you that if a top MOBA player spent some time in prison for killing dogs, he wouldn't be banned from playing the game when he got out. Neither would someone who was indicted (but never convicted) of double homicide. Why should you hold a pro sports league accountable for something like that, when the moderators of a gaming community wouldn't either? It's a logical fallacy, and it made it very hard to take anything else you had to say in this video seriously.
Skill speaks for itself.
Think about it this way: two boxers are interviewed before a boxing match, they both trash talk each other, they beat the crap out of each other (it's boxing, thats what they do) in the fight, one wins a belt and a purse [insert joke here] the other wins a smaller purse. They run into each other in a bar the next day, what do they do? They sit down and have a drink. Yeah they trash talked each other before the fight but it was trash talk, it was facetious.
The problem in anything competitive is not trash talk, it's abusive behavior. But (inappropriately at the beginning of a sentence) there are many who behave abusively towards other players and defend it as trash talk. When they do that, they should be called out on not just the abusive behavior but their bullshit defiance as well, tell them trash talk is supposed to be facetious, it's supposed to be friendly ribbing, not abusive and what they are doing is a abusive. Take their defense away.
Really, if someone is so inclined to blame others for not doing as well as they hoped or likes to put others down when they DO perform well, any attempt to get through to them via speaking to them they'll interpret as a threat to their way of life. They're going to get defensive, and trash-talkers and the verbally abusive will do so even more as that defense mechanism for both sore losers and sore winners.
The best course of action, I believe, it to mute them. They yell at you to get their attention. Once it becomes clear it's not happening, they DO calm down.
P.S. I'm so glad Mario Kart Wii doesn't have voice chat. Its Battle Mode would've been hell. It's team-based (with a cumulative score), has a strong element of chance, and, unlike the races, seems to have a wide gap in skill with a few really good players and a bunch of average to bad ones. (You can see this in how in most matches, one or two people from each team will hold more Coins or points than everyone else combined.)
If there is a fault, and in all honesty you see that it might be yours, do the following:
ADMIT.THE.DAMN.FAULT
TAKE.THE.DAMN.FAULT
ACCEPT.THE.DAMN.FAULT
LEARN.FROM.IT
claiming responsibility for one's actions is becoming a lost moral.
I WILL REPORT U!!1
UEHUEHEUHEUEHEUHEUEHUEHEUHEUEEUHEUHEUEHUEH
Yeah, I feel ashamed of most people of my country...
To Seek,
To Learn,
To Do.
-QFG2
If the speed of light is faster then the speed of sound, is that why people always appear bright until they speak? o_O
From personal experience playing MMOs more often than not it's the better player passing around blame, not the worse players. Typically the people who aren't doing as well argue that they know they're not doing so well, but they're trying their best to get better. However, the best players who know the game and their class inside and out and already have gear that far outstrips everyone else will complain that everyone is doing horribly, and everyone should be as good as them. Sometimes this kind of toxisity is simply blaming, but more often than not it's a way for the good player to lord over the other players with his superior playing ability and the gear he has because of it. You see it all the time in World of Warcraft in raids. A player joins a raid simply to be better than everyone else. They feel good by showing people just how much better they are at the game.
By all accounts, Michael Jordan was an absolute douchebag when it came to talking smack, but he always backed it up and thus managed to get in people's heads throughout his illustrious career.
Reggie Miller famously trash-talked John Starks to the point of actually getting him ejected from the game when he finally retaliated physically, leading to a win for the Pacers.
Plus, beating someone who is talking trash is always extra satisfying, and I don't want to take that away from people who don't particularly enjoy doing it themselves.
Chocholate factory called. They want their pink shades back.
Chocholate factory called. They want their pink shades back.
Then combine that with the longstanding history of trash talking in competitions -- Going back to snide remarks and pep-talks prior to battles on the fields of wars.
Now add the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad
(Apologies for language, that's just what it's called)
Given all that: You posit this is a 'problem' among 'gamers', and further that it's one which stands a chance of being 'fixed'? Seems this is just yet another episode where EC folks don't really know what they're talking about... It sounds noble, but is ultimately naive. Also: See any oppressed people for examples of what 'fixing' such things entails. The medicine is far worse than the disease.
The answer is to give the folks who don't want to hear the potty-mouth the means to not hear it. Online: Muting and Party-Chat does wonders. It's the main benefit of XBL, in my opinion. Being able to join a chat with friends and ignore the vitriol is really great -- Though, I'd like more fine-grained control where I could still participate in game-chat when in party chat. You mention investment, but as expected, fail to apply it properly to the problem at hand. Getting to know each other adds incentive for niceness: You stand to lose a relationship you've invested time in. Also, some of my 'friends' were selected precisely for their humorous and silly trash talking skills -- It doesn't always have to be profane or negative.
In real life: being open about the rules and not playing favorites with how they're enforced is key. Many Fighting Game tournaments encourage the hyped up trash talk to heighten the spectacle. It makes for a good circus. Attendees are free not to attend such places without rules prohibiting trash talk. Not all tournaments have the same rules. As in online, players merely need the capability to remove themselves from the situation in order to 'solve' the problem of experiencing vitriolic language.
The icing on the cake is when, despite proposing a solution be found for the comically difficult problem of trash talk, you additionally attempt to address Blame Shifting -- Another human trait going back to the first failed collaborative effort, I'm sure. Are we gamers or psychologists? If psychology could solve such things, don't you think we would have by now?
One thing I'm forced to recall is the universal truth that you can control no action but your own. I can not control your actions. I could say a long string of expletives, or simply "I love kittens." Either could offend you, and I couldn't do anything about it. That's why it's called "taking offense" -- I can't make you be offended, you must take the offense yourself. In a similar vein, I make it a point to assign worth to words from only those I deem worthy. This episode isn't worthless, in my opinion, but close to it. You may take my opinion in the same light, or you could get so offended you strive to do a bit more research before making these silly videos -- I can't control, and thus can't care, which.
You can legitimately lose any chance of winning to bad luck, no matter what you do, and that's just a fact of the game - it's not really shifting if you're pointing to the actual root cause.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
With that being said, I do engage in cursing and some rage in games. Mostly in games with friends who I actually care to hear my voice. However, I don't try to demean or belittle someone based on racial bias or whatever, it tends to be, "YOU expletive-deleted". By saying that phrase with friends it is playful because, in most cases, they were able to outsmart me or get the upper hand. In my mind it's just being playful and friends having fun. The only time I will engage in anything remotely close to trash talk is when I am absolutely terrible at a game. Marvel VS capcom online for example. And even then, it's more like playing with a delusional idiot who yells "I WIN!" when they have clearly lost.
1 Children shouldn't be on the internet without adult supervision, that's a hard fact you need to face.
2 They are.
3 As a paying consumer I am taxed by developers to make this game possible for them.
4 I don't want to spend my time babysitting either, I want to enjoy my free time ~ relaxing.
Developers almost across the board do not cater to those that spend inumerable hours and money on these games they sell to the broadest possible audience. When they don't even have the respect for the consumer that pays their paycheck by offering an Elo system a tiered experience system or any other possible allowance to sepparate the adults that want their free time spent well I have no respect for the company and no patience for the players.
I don't believe in this "online utopia" where all players are equal given the chance, they aren't face it. Deal with it and stop encouraging / peddling this online communistic garbage. Or in the very least place half the blame on terrible game design that doesn't meet the needs of the adult player.
I play World of Tanks on a regular basis, and stop right there before you go "but world of tanks has a pro-game away from mouth breathers, windowlickers, zit poppers and thumbsuckers" It doesn't it has an over zealous time sink for the unemployed and cave dwellers. Opposite ends of the playability spectrum does not a satisfied core audience make.
It REALLY chaps my hide to see that this commonality argument is used when there has been zero advancement in the area of populace segregation based on enjoyment needs. It not only lazy, it looks more like "monetization/microtransaction/metrics" bs.
Do I need to say more? Because I will, I don't come home from work wanting to sip a beer and playa game with other adults, to instead go .. no I should just go over to my neighbors house and babysit his children for the rest of te night.
You don't do it I hope, don't expect hard core players to either~ it's ludicrous.
When you push yourself it hurts, and that is an emotional state you aren't gonna relase by asking the neighbor over for a cup of chai tea and vanilla cookies.
I get where you're coming from. I used to play sports back in High School and there was a guy on our basketball team who was a MASTER of trash talk. His name was Dan, and no he wasn't Dan Floyd of EC. Anyway, Dan was a pretty nice guy off the court, but he HATED losing. Just practicing against him was intimidating. He knew how to get into your head and prey on your insecurities on the court with just a few words. And it DID give him an edge against insecure or rookie players. Dan kept it well within "acceptable" levels and so nothing was done about it. One thing about Dan's psychology though: he derived all his enjoyment from WINNING. Playing for its own sake wasn't enough any more. That mentality eventually led to several injuries because Dan valued winning over his own health. I get where that competitive drive comes from and I've seen it openly encouraged in physical sports.
In an online setting, particularly in an "e-sport" environment, you've got this same "ultra competitive" kind of player rubbing shoulders constantly with kids under the age of twelve and people just out to play for the fun of playing. Not to mention all the Jerks and the Griefers. And each and every one of them is anonymous. It's like forcing each member of the starting line to play 5 on 5 with 4 random kids from the lunch room. If your fun comes JUST from winning, or beating someone else, it's HELL.
I have a real problem with the current trend of "e-sports as marketing." In games like World of Tanks and League of Legends you're going to see pretty much EVERY player try to make it in the ladders. Those that don't tend to be treated like second-class citizens. "Normal" games wind up feeling like a public basketball court where the jocks can show up at any time, kick you around for a while to blow off some steam and then leave, never mind the fact that you're still trying to play and have fun at the same time. The various player "subcultures" never completely separate. Trying to "rank" players and separate them based on some kind of "skill" measurement only makes it worse.
Unfortunately, skill is not and has never been the real problem. The problem is just a simple lack of consideration. Getting stuck with a noob is no reason to sound off on the guy for "holding you back" or making mistakes. But this idea that the answer lies solely with players moderating their own behavior is just as inconsiderate and short-sighted as yelling at a newbie for being new. This desire to look for something or someONE else to blame really IS wired into our heads, and we DO need to get past it to be good players. Except most people never will. Scapegoating is more mentally comfortable than self-improvement. Its the same reason why people tend not to give to charities unless the charity's "cause" has already touched those people's lives or why we offer excuses for being late or forgetting to call someone, even when it's completely our fault.
Competitive people see non-competitive or unskilled players as the problem while non-competitive players see trash-talking and ego as the problem. Its a fundamental mismatch in attitude. And Jerks are still Jerks and there will always be Jerks. The problem, then, is human nature. And even GENOCIDE hasn't worked as a cured for that.
"you keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means"
Trash talk is about challenging, tongue on cheek, defiance. Ali's trash talk used to defy his adversaries, to poke fun at their weakness and to inspire us to believe in his own super-human capabilities.
Trash talk when done right has a bit of a poetic tune to it. Like coaches banters and friends dissing each other. Its consensual, in a way, polite, funny and when well done it inspires fans on both sides of the table. BTW what M.Tyson did in that video further down is not trash talking and obviously by no means was he ever considered a good sportsman.
On the other end its toxic and abusive behaviour. Which is only funny if you have a very particular (and childish) sense of humour. Its offensive, personal, not polite and usually drive the most sensible or least interested in backyard-trailer-park-low-brow conversations, to a rage or even worst, to a depression. Toxic or abusive behaviour has no place in sports or any other sort of competition, and people that use it are ALWAYS marked as very poor sportsmen.
Its not because a lot of people use or does something that we shouldn't advocate to better ourselves.
Not saying toxic and abusive behaviour is not effective to some degree, but lets face it; you are not a professional, you are just playing a video game to entertain yourself before its time to eat again. There's nothing at stake here besides your ego, and you're being rude and offensive to other human beings who never gave you permission for it, and who might even be extremely sensible to that kind of behaviour, just so you can win a nigh time hobby? That says a lot more about you then your hobby of choice.
With voice chat, tone of voice can make it clear that we're only joking. I've heard people congratulate their killer on their marksmanship in the same breath that they call them a bastard or the like (although worse words than 'bastard' comes up very rarely and only among Aussies who are already kinda foul-mouthed).
But with text chat, well... I'll be honest - you see an Aussie insult you through text and unless his choice of words make the tone clear, it's even odds he's complimenting you or genuinely insulting you. Good rule of thumb is what swear-words he's using, their severity and how many of them. If he's complimenting you, he'll probably keep it short with only one or two swear words (if he calls you something like a 'lucky c**t' then he's probably complimenting you - that word has very little impact these days and some of our more foul-mouthed gamers use it as a compliment) whereas if he's genuinely, toxically trash-talking you, then he's going to use a lot of foul language (and if you're really lucky, he'll have the decency to be a bit creative with it).
So if you're ever playing with some of us from the other end of the world and think some of them are insulting you; pay attention to their tone of voice and choice of words. They could just be congratulating you or each other in our usual manner. It's just part of the national pass-time of screwing with foreigners. :P
For instance, while playing a pickup basketball game, if the opponent gets a nice 3 on your team mate you don't tell them they suck, or rage at them, instead you trash talk the opponent to your teammate. "just stick with it, dude got lucky". It's not usually heard only by the person who didn't put up a good enough defense, but it's still a good out for any frustration.
I think this is something that would be beneficial to bring to the gaming scene. As an avid League of Legends player, when someone starts raging at another player, the teamwork just collapses and your chances of winning dwindle by a lot. I like his ideas for "outs" but sometimes people just can't handle attributing it to OP champs or such. The problem is the players. So rather then bashing your own, bash the enemy. It sounds really rude, but as long as you keep it out of all chat, all it's doing is building up your team, it isn't hurting anyone. Online gaming is the only team sport I know of where straight bashing your allies is commonplace and I think that should stop.
It was as follows: "Why the fuck are you here, you gay-ass noob? Are your parents too fucked up to deal with you? I hope they beat your faggot ass every fucking night. Just go kill yourself so they don't have to deal with you anymore."
Maybe it was the utterly hateful way he said it to me, who he doesn't even know, maybe it was the fact I was new to the game, but this was the only time where a douche on the internet actually drove me away from a game. So guys, I implore you: If you rage at your server or act like an ass to others for any reason, STOP. It may be a release to you, but think about the other guy. If he's playing a game you enjoy, maybe he likes it too. Maybe it's his first time playing. Maybe your xeno/homo/theophobic attitude is going to drive him away from the game, maybe for life, and the what are you? Victorious? Successful? No. You're an asshole whose tactic for getting an edge has fractured your community as a whole. So next time you see a noob struggling to get a hold on a game, don't mock him, give him pointers. If that's too hard, then stop talking and play the game.
It was as follows: "Why the fuck are you here, you gay-ass noob? Are your parents too fucked up to deal with you? I hope they beat your faggot ass every fucking night. Just go kill yourself so they don't have to deal with you anymore."
Maybe it was the utterly hateful way he said it to me, who he doesn't even know, maybe it was the fact I was new to the game, but this was the only time where a douche on the internet actually drove me away from a game. So guys, I implore you: If you rage at your server or act like an ass to others for any reason, STOP. It may be a release to you, but think about the other guy. If he's playing a game you enjoy, maybe he likes it too. Maybe it's his first time playing. Maybe your xeno/homo/theophobic attitude is going to drive him away from the game, maybe for life, and the what are you? Victorious? Successful? No. You're an asshole whose tactic for getting an edge has fractured your community as a whole. So next time you see a noob struggling to get a hold on a game, don't mock him, give him pointers. If that's too hard, then stop talking and play the game.
Also: "Boorish" is a great word.
Granted, there is a pretty large difference between "We lost this game because the enemy jungler was able to camp lanes unopposed, our jungler or mid should have been on top of that." and "HOLY FUCK OUR JUNGLER FUCKING UNINSTALLL" which I think is a more common version of that.
Trash talk is not the same as raging at teammates. One is a skill and weapon used against opponents while the other is an inappropriate outlet for anger. Yes, trash talking can cross social lines which are not acceptable to cross (sexism, racism, religious slurs) and punishment for those who cross it is agreeable. That said, offensive slurs are generally not the most effective tactic. People who are good at getting in the minds of opponents attack their psychological weaknesses. It can seem cruel but as long as both parties understand that it doesn't go outside of the game, life is good. The problem here is usually the victim, especially lower level competitive players.
Personally, I don't think that trash talking has any place in random matchmaking or most pubs. There are some pubs operated by clans where it's a part of the culture and that's great but in random matchmaking, I'm not a fan. I'll also point out that trash talking only works in games with all talk and best in person. This means that it's natural for games like fighters. For games like FPSes, it really doesn't work since you aren't near enough to your opponent for them to hear you.
TD is right about what makes traditional MOBAs so incredibly frustrating, especially on a casual level. One bad player on your team of five can lose you the match in the first 10 minutes and you can be stuck there for another 50 minutes. Yeah, you theoretically could come back but having a bad player on your team in MOBAs not only makes your team less effective but makes more opponents more effective. In the best situations, this leads to a faster end to the game (a 35-40 minute match) or even a surrender but it's usually drawn out. The worst situation is getting stuck with two bad players or, worse yet, griefers who refuse to surrender. Quitting a match early punishes players, creating more frustration and a sense of imprisonment. It's just plain bad news bears.
As an Aussie I can surely attest that people do take things the wrong way regarding what we say as competitive or complimentary banter (not extreme). Just so we're clear, Aussie's aren't rude, we're just misunderstood.
However I believe it's also important that as Aussies, we respect the rules and regulations regarding boundaries of competitive trash talk. While it is in our culture, in no way do we have to right to impose that as reasoning to break the rules and restrictions placed on competitive trash talk. If our cultural form of banter is deemed acceptable or at least we can explain it is (and accepted) then I say go nuts, otherwise we should respect the culture that the game makers are trying to encourage and refrain from using words that will cause misunderstanding.
As Extra Credits have stated before, "The use of social constructs as a means to abuse another player and justifying that as the norm of culture within the gaming community is just not good enough " and quite frankly a load of bullshit.
In LoL, I often try to call MIAs, ask people to check various buffs' locations, etc. No, I don't do build advices-I think that's a very personal thing. But often, whether winning or losing, saying things like "Enemy A is missing from top lane, will get to mid in 8sec. Ready to pull back" will often get people VERY riled up against me. Most often, people will tell me to STFU, etc, for actually trying to relay info.
"Can I get a hand at x tower/dragon/buffs/etc?" is just as bad. Or things like "We can stall them with 4 ppl--you keep pushing"...oh, how people hate seeing strategic choices being made. I guess maybe I'm ordering them around too much? I think I did them rather nicely...but yeah, never worked, man.