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[Babylon 5] Our Last, Best Hope For Victory

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Posts

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited August 2018
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    Jacobkosh on
    monikerBlackDragon480chrono_traveller
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Also, I don't think there's really that much to infer about the technological development of the Minbari 1000 years ago. We get a glimpse of two of their spaceships.

    The original Babylon stations were a collaboration between the various involved worlds, and Babylon 4 was the biggest and best of them all. It may not have been purely Earth technology.

    But even if it was, it's not like the station is the only thing that came back to the past: there was also a dude who'd been living on present-day Minbar for years and could well have brought back a bunch of knowledge with him.

    And Zathras. But nobody listens to poor Zathras.

    EntaruMorganVKneelSnicketysnickJacobkoshShadowenhawkboxShadowfireCommander ZoomWotanAnubisgrumblethornchrono_travellerBolthornevilbob
  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    MINbari.

    MINbari.

    It's raining MINbari.

    Delenn was Manbari. ;)

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    Jacobkosh
  • EntaruEntaru Goddess with a blade Registered User regular
    Zathras used to being beast of burden. Zathras have sad life, probably have sad death, but at least there is symmetry

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
    KneelMorganVNaphtaliHefflingmonikerhawkboxDracomicronShadowfireCommander ZoomMan in the MistsBlackDragon480grumblethornchrono_travellerBolthornMazzyx
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    Zathras used to being beast of burden. Zathras have sad life, probably have sad death, but at least there is symmetry

    I think you mean Zathras, not Zathras.

    hawkboxEntaruDracomicronShadowfiregrumblethorn
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    Zathras used to being beast of burden. Zathras have sad life, probably have sad death, but at least there is symmetry

    I think you mean Zathras, not Zathras.

    Xathras used to people arguing over spelling his name more than actually talking to him

  • grumblethorngrumblethorn Registered User regular
    I wanted to share this with you guys. Had these made for my wife's birthday.

    vhz8cvc58hhb.png

    see317iguanacusBlackDragon480DanHibikiMorganVmonikershrykeNaphtaliMazzyxdaveNYCShadowenjkylefultonMan in the Mistschrono_travellerNobodyHefflingInquisitor77SnicketysnickDrovekWho-PsydRichyInvectivusAegisautono-wally, erotibot300ShadowfireColanutboogedybooRingo
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Null Registered User regular
    God damn if those were real I'd have to actually buy Funko pops

    B.net: Naphtali#1830 | Steam | Nintendo ID: Naphtali | PSN: EI-Naphtali | Wish List
    Drovek
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Only thing worse for my wallet would be B5 lego kits.

    Naphtalisee317Colanut
  • BogartBogart I Will Cure You Registered User, Moderator mod
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    On a darker note, I kinda hate that my first thought whenever I see this thread bob to the top is "damn, did someone else die?"

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    MorganVsee317jkylefultonmonikerDrovekInvectivusAegisShadowfireVoodooV
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    zszzddn08ig7.jpg
    Can we get one done up in the Black Omega colors?
    I could also use a Bester minifig.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    zszzddn08ig7.jpg
    Can we get one done up in the Black Omega colors?
    I could also use a Bester minifig.
    You could get the man himself. He's tiny.

    I met him a decade or so ago, and could not believe how small he is. I mean, I didn't think he was huge, but damn.

    Miracles of television.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    jkylefulton
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    One thing about the Vorlon system is that by the time we see them everything they're doing has been bent towards the goal of getting the Shadows to admit they're wrong. They want peace and diplomacy I guess, but what they really want are the Shadows to show up and for the entire galaxy to hate them. So having everyone perceive them as angels while the Shadows look like spiders with the creepy screaming ships fits.

  • EntaruEntaru Goddess with a blade Registered User regular
    Oh good. No one is dead.

    Carry on.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
    DrovekMorganVCommander ZoomAegisNaphtaliShadowen
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    The Vorlons also suppress some technology and push advancement towards their own ends.
    There was the episode with an immortality serum. The catch being that to make the immortality serum you had to kill some other sentient being and use their brain juices, which would have plunged the galaxy into war as each race sought to kill the others to make themselves immortal. B5 let the person go, only to have a Vorlon ship show up and blow the ship apart before it could hit the jump gate.

    Vorlons are responsible for telepaths among the humans, and it's implied among all of the other races as well. Sure, it was just to use them as anti-Shadow weapons, but it's still Vorlon development along the ordered path they chose for you. Other than that, they also advanced Mimbari weapon tech in the Whitestars, shaped Mimbari culture for the past 1000 years through Valen forming the Rangers and the Grey Council.

    The Vorlon influence on cultures seems much more subtle and restrained than the Shadows, but it also seem more pervasive.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    monikerDrovek
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    The Vorlons also suppress some technology and push advancement towards their own ends.
    There was the episode with an immortality serum. The catch being that to make the immortality serum you had to kill some other sentient being and use their brain juices, which would have plunged the galaxy into war as each race sought to kill the others to make themselves immortal. B5 let the person go, only to have a Vorlon ship show up and blow the ship apart before it could hit the jump gate.

    Vorlons are responsible for telepaths among the humans, and it's implied among all of the other races as well. Sure, it was just to use them as anti-Shadow weapons, but it's still Vorlon development along the ordered path they chose for you. Other than that, they also advanced Mimbari weapon tech in the Whitestars, shaped Mimbari culture for the past 1000 years through Valen forming the Rangers and the Grey Council.

    The Vorlon influence on cultures seems much more subtle and restrained than the Shadows, but it also seem more pervasive.

    I think view the immortality serum thing as suppressing technological advancement for it's own sake or anything. That does not seem to be part of their agenda. Rather, in retrospect, the serum would probably help demonstrate that the Shadows are right. The results are antithetical to Vorlon philosophy about how one should act. So, in their paternalistic way, they stop it to make our lives better.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    I think Kosh goes native. Ulkesh embodies and follows the standard Vorlon philosophy. Kosh kinda likes the younger races and eventually Sheridan browbeats him into coming around and joining the younger race's side. After he dies, he gets replaced by a Vorlon who sticks to the company line.

    monikerNaphtaliCommander ZoomjkylefultonMan in the Mists
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    The Vorlons also suppress some technology and push advancement towards their own ends.
    There was the episode with an immortality serum. The catch being that to make the immortality serum you had to kill some other sentient being and use their brain juices, which would have plunged the galaxy into war as each race sought to kill the others to make themselves immortal. B5 let the person go, only to have a Vorlon ship show up and blow the ship apart before it could hit the jump gate.

    Vorlons are responsible for telepaths among the humans, and it's implied among all of the other races as well. Sure, it was just to use them as anti-Shadow weapons, but it's still Vorlon development along the ordered path they chose for you. Other than that, they also advanced Mimbari weapon tech in the Whitestars, shaped Mimbari culture for the past 1000 years through Valen forming the Rangers and the Grey Council.

    The Vorlon influence on cultures seems much more subtle and restrained than the Shadows, but it also seem more pervasive.

    I think view the immortality serum thing as suppressing technological advancement for it's own sake or anything. That does not seem to be part of their agenda. Rather, in retrospect, the serum would probably help demonstrate that the Shadows are right. The results are antithetical to Vorlon philosophy about how one should act. So, in their paternalistic way, they stop it to make our lives better.

    I would think that Immortality is right up the Vorlon's ideological alley. What could be more stable and ordered than a galaxy where the races didn't age or change or grow or develop?
    But, because the serum itself required death to work, it would have sparked massive wars, development of slave races to harvest for immortality, chaos on a galactic scale. The process to get to immortality is antithetical to Vorlons, but not immortality itself (otherwise, why would the Vorlons have allowed themselves to become immortal?).

    It wouldn't be surprising to learn that the immortality serum itself was based on Shadow tech based on the chaos and war it would inevitably cause among the younger races, even if they chose not to use it themselves because the kind of ordered stagnation that immortality would impose on their race is just as antithetical as the chaos caused by getting there would be to the Vorlons. But I don't think the possible Shadow origins for the serum where ever hinted at, let alone confirmed.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    Oh good. No one is dead.

    Carry on.

    William Morgan Sheppard did last week. He played the Soul Hunter, as well as G'Sten.

    Sorry. :(

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited January 12
    Bogart wrote: »
    zszzddn08ig7.jpg

    2o8nd2rfu8vp.jpg

    Oh god

    Do the Spin Gravity Decks spin?[/spoiler]

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    jkylefulton
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    Oh good. No one is dead.

    Carry on.

    William Morgan Sheppard did last week. He played the Soul Hunter, as well as G'Sten.

    Sorry. :(

    Awww. He was awesome in such a small role. In terms of one-off's, I think it's him, and Sebastian*, that I always remember.

    Condolences to his family.

    Which includes one of the best "genre" actors of the current generation.

    * Yes, I'm aware Wayne Alexander (Sebastian) had multiple appearances on the show, but only one as Sebastian (and the only one sans prosthetics).

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    It definitely could have been done better. Though I do feel like a lot of the incongruity there can be made up in the clear differences between Kosh and Ulkesh. Kosh is basically Vorlon Jesus meanwhile Ulkesh hasn't 'gone native' and simply demands obedience and following whatever plan the Vorlons have for you even if they work in mysterious ways.

    I always took it as Kosh did something which Vorlons normally don't do at all - he got involved. And he got killed for it. The Vorlons are basically immortal, so in this grand ideological fight this is a big deal and Ulkesh represents the collective panic of the Vorlon government over what the escalation is going to mean. All of which manifests, notably, when the Shadows and Vorlons target everyone else's planets but not each other.

    The Vorlons also suppress some technology and push advancement towards their own ends.
    There was the episode with an immortality serum. The catch being that to make the immortality serum you had to kill some other sentient being and use their brain juices, which would have plunged the galaxy into war as each race sought to kill the others to make themselves immortal. B5 let the person go, only to have a Vorlon ship show up and blow the ship apart before it could hit the jump gate.

    Vorlons are responsible for telepaths among the humans, and it's implied among all of the other races as well. Sure, it was just to use them as anti-Shadow weapons, but it's still Vorlon development along the ordered path they chose for you. Other than that, they also advanced Mimbari weapon tech in the Whitestars, shaped Mimbari culture for the past 1000 years through Valen forming the Rangers and the Grey Council.

    The Vorlon influence on cultures seems much more subtle and restrained than the Shadows, but it also seem more pervasive.

    I think view the immortality serum thing as suppressing technological advancement for it's own sake or anything. That does not seem to be part of their agenda. Rather, in retrospect, the serum would probably help demonstrate that the Shadows are right. The results are antithetical to Vorlon philosophy about how one should act. So, in their paternalistic way, they stop it to make our lives better.

    I would think that Immortality is right up the Vorlon's ideological alley. What could be more stable and ordered than a galaxy where the races didn't age or change or grow or develop?
    But, because the serum itself required death to work, it would have sparked massive wars, development of slave races to harvest for immortality, chaos on a galactic scale. The process to get to immortality is antithetical to Vorlons, but not immortality itself (otherwise, why would the Vorlons have allowed themselves to become immortal?).

    It wouldn't be surprising to learn that the immortality serum itself was based on Shadow tech based on the chaos and war it would inevitably cause among the younger races, even if they chose not to use it themselves because the kind of ordered stagnation that immortality would impose on their race is just as antithetical as the chaos caused by getting there would be to the Vorlons. But I don't think the possible Shadow origins for the serum where ever hinted at, let alone confirmed.

    Kosh doesn't say humanity or the younger races shouldn't be immortal, he just states "you are not ready". He doesn't even comment on why that path to immortality would be horrible, just that humans or Minbari or likely all the younger races are not yet sufficiently advanced to handle living forever.

    I doubt the Vorlons or Shadows or any of the old ones had to rely on a murder serum for immortality, it wouldn't make any sense for biological immortality to be reliant on sapping life goo out of one of your fellow aliens and shooting it into yourself.

    moniker
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    To touch on the earlier discussion about the Vorlon and Shadow conflict:

    We get to see how the Shadows operate: we see Morden making deals, we understand from a very early point that they're fomenting galactic war, even if we don't know why. Learning that it's an ideological battle makes sense and is congruent with what we've seen before.

    But from what we see in the show, the Vorlons champion order by...making primitive societies believe in angels? I guess? And once those primitive societies advance to spaceflight, the Vorlons clam up and stop speaking to you unless you're Minbari or a TV show protagonist. You'd think the natural counterbalance to the Shadows' plan would be for Kosh to try to champion peace and diplomacy in the council meetings, but instead he's mostly AWOL. We learn that the Vorlons created telepaths, but that's a tool to fight the Shadows, not their ideology.

    It's an incongruity that bugs me in the final episodes of the war arc. It's suggested that the Vorlons represent suffocating stasis (Sheridan literally talks to a block of ice!) but that makes me feel like I missed a chapter of the book, because the ground work hasn't been done to set that up. It feels like the Vorlons go from pointedly uninvolved and not really active drivers of the plot to genocidal in the space of about fifty minutes. It's not a big deal but it's a speed bump that makes me think JMS's ideas about the Vorlons changed and mutated as the show went on.

    Most sci-fi writers tend to go on the fritz when they try to create, "angelic" forces, because they don't really have a firm concept of what they're supposed to be. Other than either galactic killjoys or freedom hating tyrants.

    The Vorlons are ok, but conceptually its easier to for viewers to grasp something like the Shadows, which are about survival of the fittest. Rather than try to portray a benevolent, but sometimes misguided precursor race.

    moniker
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