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I need help transitioning my relationship to non-monogamy
nonmono
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Hey, folks. Any constructive advice is appreciated here.
I'm a guy in my mid-twenties who has been in a monogamous relationship with a woman (in her mid-twenties) for about two years now. We don't have kids or property, and we're not married. Everything has been going really well on all fronts, but I can no longer repress my non-monogamous feelings.
I've been researching and thinking about this for months, and I've decided on opening up a frank discussion with her about my feelings. To help aid this conversation, I wrote up a kind of script that I can follow.
I would really appreciate any feedback about my "script." Anything I can add, tweak, or remove to make this clearer and non-hostile?
Thanks for everything.
I'm a guy in my mid-twenties who has been in a monogamous relationship with a woman (in her mid-twenties) for about two years now. We don't have kids or property, and we're not married. Everything has been going really well on all fronts, but I can no longer repress my non-monogamous feelings.
I've been researching and thinking about this for months, and I've decided on opening up a frank discussion with her about my feelings. To help aid this conversation, I wrote up a kind of script that I can follow.
I would really appreciate any feedback about my "script." Anything I can add, tweak, or remove to make this clearer and non-hostile?
Thanks for everything.
Preface:
First and foremost, I love you. I want to continue to be with you, and I’ve only grown more attracted to you as a person as I’ve known you longer.
I find you attractive physically, sexually, psychologically, and emotionally. I think we have a connection that is very rarely found between two people.
I love you for who you are, and I only want the best for you, me, and us. You’ve made enormous steps forward in making your life better, and I admire you and your courage.
I want you, I love you, and I’m pretty sure you feel the same way towards me. Under no circumstance should this discussion be construed as a desire to break-up or become less attached. Quite the opposite, in fact.
I’m using this script-of-sorts as a way of opening up a discussion for us. I’m not making demands or expecting anything to change overnight. This is as sincere and open as I can possibly be, and I have gone to great lengths to think this through. I’m presenting these ideas to you in the hopes that you’ll understand where I’m coming from.
This is not an indictment of you and your choices, me and my choices, or the quality of our relationship. I am actually quite pleased with how our physical and emotional relationship has continued to grow. I’m having the best sex of my life with you, and I feel like we’re closer than ever as a couple.
My desires:
As you’re well aware, I am extremely sexually aroused at the idea of sex with multiple people. Our shared sexual exploration and fantasy-play has lead me to believe that this is a turn-on for you too.
Instead of feeling jealous when I think about you with another man or woman, I feel what is called “compersion.” I wasn’t familiar with the word until recently, so I won’t assume you know the definition either. Fundamentally, compersion is the opposite of jealousy. It’s an appreciation of the happiness of other people. When I think of you having sex another person, it’s a turn on. Period. I don’t feel jealously like I’m told I’m supposed to feel.
I, too, find the idea of having sex with other women extremely arousing. I find the idea of having group sex arousing. I am aroused at the idea of watching you have sex.
Under no circumstance will I ever consider cheating a viable action. Lying and going behind my loved one’s back is the opposite of how I live my life. It’s unethical, disgusting, and demeaning to everyone involved.
I’m aware of how poorly your attempt went in a previous relationship to bring another girl into the equation. I’m aware we have both expressed concerns about non-monogamous sex before. I’m aware of what our society expects from relationships and sex. Still, my desires haven’t subsided in the least, so I went looking for answers.
My research:
Despite being told over and over again by supposed experts that exclusively monogamous coupling is the only healthy kind of relationship, I knew deep down that can’t be right. Instead of rashly jumping to conclusions, I started looking at the information available. There are many resources to pull from, and I’ve tried to absorb as much information as possible.
I’ve read three wonderful books talking about human sexuality, and they have opened my eyes and heart to the possibility that humans can, in fact, have many meaningful sexual relationships without sacrificing anything.
First, I read Opening Up by Tristan Taormino. This book focuses mainly on realizing that you have specific sexual desires for multiple sexual and/or relationship configurations, and how to deal with that in your environment.
Next, I read The Ethical Slut by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy. This book talks all about the feelings and realities about being sexually open in any configuration. It’s extremely well written, and helped me come to terms with my feelings.
Thirdly, I read Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá. This provides a scientific explanation about human sexuality and evolution. This was the nail in the coffin for me. Humans don’t have to be exclusively monogamous to be happy. What other supposed sex experts have been saying isn’t actually based in fact. The idea that human beings can only be happy and healthy in monogamous pairings is patently false, and there is massive amounts of evidence to prove it. After reading Sex at Dawn, I knew for sure this was what felt right for me.
In addition, I also listened to real world experiences with non-monogamy on the podcasts “Life on the Swingset” and “Pedestrian Polyamory.” It was very heartening to hear from regular people who feel the same way that I do.
While problems obviously still exist for people practicing non-monogamy, following your heart, and being completely open about your feelings to your loved ones are the only ways to find happiness and fulfillment.
My requests:
Before we start to make any sort of agreements or decisions, I want to hear about your concerns. Your feelings matter to me. I want you to be completely honest, and hopefully I will be able to respond intelligently about any specific questions you have.
Next, I ask that you read the three books that I did: Opening Up, The Ethical Slut, and Sex at Dawn. These books are filled to the brim with answers and information, and I think it’s important to use these resources before making any decisions about our way forward. I already own them in audiobook form, but I’d be happy to buy them in any format you prefer.
I encourage us to have multiple discussions about this topic, and I’m completely willing to see your therapist if you so choose. Nothing needs to happen right now, and I don’t want to pressure you into anything you’re not comfortable with. All I ask is that you have an open mind, speak honestly with me, and take this slowly with your hand placed firmly in mine.
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You probably won't get through the second section before she makes her thoughts abundantly clear, either positive or negative.
I still want to convey all of this information (especially in a kind, open, and caring way), so do you have suggestions on how to better structure it?
Because that's probably the first step and then the conversation will take very different paths depending on her answer--bombarding her with information isn't going to make her any more receptive.
She had a bad experience in a previous relationship when they tried to bring in another woman. That's because her previous partner acted out very irresponsibly.
She isn't fundamentally against non-monogamy as a concept, but she has shown hesitancy about the potential problems relating to it (jealousy, hurt feelings, etc.). She is well aware of my non-monogamous feelings, but I have been keeping them restrained and down-played until now.
If she isn't interested in non-monogamy, that is a bridge we'll have to cross. But I don't think it's fair to say "Hey, this was the way your relationship started. You have to stay that exact same way if you want it to continue." Humans change and grow constantly.
I appreciate that you took a moment to comment, but I fundamentally disagree with the basis of your statement.
It's totally valid for you to disagree but this is the fundamental structure of your relationship, if your partner is expecting the status quo you may be pulling the rug out from under her
And rather than project my own very specific opinions onto you and yours, you should probably find a place to ask about this that has a broader depth of experience than a video game forum. While I know we do have some forumers who are non-monogamous I would feel really weird about @'ing them, so I guess my advice would be to go and ask advice on another forum/internet resource dedicated to non-traditional relationships
When you bring it up, she's probably going to immediately jump back to that bad experience she had before.
I don't think hitting her with a giant monologue and a reading list is going to be super-helpful in that case. Just talk to her naturally and don't make it A Thing. If she seems receptive, then maybe introduce one of the books.
But we won't be there when you're talking to her, so we can't give you exact advice. Just don't sit down and start reading a script at her, please.
LAUNCH FAILURE ABORT ABORT ABORT
If she had a bad experience in the past, and you've only been together for two years, there's no way that it's a good idea to try to mess with the status quo in this way at this time. If she's well aware of your interest in group sex, swinging, or whatever, then she doesn't need a(nother) spiel about how totally awesome you think it would be to have sex with a bunch of other people. If and when she feels the same way, she can talk to you.
I won't be taking most of the advice to heart — I've made my decision about how I want to live my life, but I will be using Usagi and a5ehren's ideas. I'll scrap the script, and just print out a bare-bones list of references if I need them mid-conversation. I'll try to keep it light and conversational. Thanks for taking the time to advise.
What do I want more? A relationship with this woman, or a non-monogamous relationship in general?
I'm not sure you can have both.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
If no, the OP says you can't repress it anymore. If that's the case, do you end the relationship? The only other option is to lie and say it is okay, but that means you'll end up cheating.
Also, I have had three modestly successful "open" relationships in my life, two of which transitioned from monogamous relationships like yours. I'd be happy to talk to you about this in more depth, should you have any questions, but I think that PMs would be a more appropriate medium for that. Feel free to contact me if you'd like.
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There are undeniable benefits to getting all your thoughts out at once, giving the other person time to digest them and think about what has been said, and then continuing the conversation on step 2 whenever both of you are ready.
Some of the best communication I've had with a significant other has started asynchronous and moved into real time conversation. It's not like you're breaking up with her via text.
You are absolutely not "giving the other person time to digest" anything. You are assaulting them with a fully-realized argument as to why they should do what you're saying, even if you do not intend to do that. Your feelings are already fully formed and come complete with a bibliography, making it uncomfortable for for someone to express sentiments out of line with your presentation. Also, I'm sorry, but I believe that for most people, beginning a conversation with a written letter or a script comes off as over-earnest and desperate. There are probably a lot of folks that believe it would be acceptable, but then there are a lot of introverted people who have trouble socializing and parsing the boundaries many people have with social interactions. There is a level of emotional disconnect with communication-through-presentation that a lot of people are going to be fundamentally uncomfortable with.
OP, I would certainly suggest you avoid treating this like a legal case or a dissertation defense. Tell her your thoughts and feelings, and if she seems open, then talk to her about the books or share some of your other ideas with her. Do not barrage her with a scripted presentation or a list of sources supporting your opinions. Doing so could very well have precisely the opposite result of what you intend.
At the risk of derailing this, that's the last I will say about the script/letter thing.
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Along this line of reasoning, it also begins to look like you're holding your relationship hostage. Probably not the best way to start a (in my opinion doomed) conversation.
If she goes with it, expect restrictions at the start. They may well lift over time, but the first relationship where you attempt poly is HELLA scary. Speaking from experience here. My main squeeze brought it up when we started getting emotionally involved with each other, but even knowing it was the setup from the start it was terrifying. We had lots and lots of check ins and talks and always know when the other is heading out on a date. The rules have relaxed a bit for us, though we still communicate loads and have a no-fucking-on-the-first-date rule.
Also, be prepared for her to totally 110% shoot this down. Not all people gender non-specific are able to, nor want open relationships, and while You may want to, She may not and you can not convince her, no matter how you plead, that it's "for the best".
Just as an add on, Thinking about your thread title. "I need help transitioning My relationship". This to me tells me that you're 100% fixed on this idea, pretty regardless of how your partner may feel, and I hope that that is not the case. Polyamory, non-monogamy, open relationships, can be great, but only if all parties involved are 100% behind the idea.
I agree with @CelestialBadger, learn from the experience so that you know to bring it up from the outset next time; that will filter out the people you are actually compatible with, sparing both parties from unnecessary pain. While some relationships certainly are flexible, people have fairly consistent "attachment" strategies throughout their lives. I would venture to say this is somewhat like a sexual orientation (yes, I realize orientations can be fluid, but in most cases they are fairly static). In the same way that no amount of "rationalizations" are going to change someone's orientation, no amount of "rationalizations" are going to convert someone from being monogamous to non-monogamous. So don't give her this giant manifesto, it's not an ideological debate.
As an anecdote, I have a friend who just gets bored from a relationship after ~6 months. It's just after that amount of time, regardless of how well the relationship is going, something snaps and he wants out. Yet, each time he gets into it like he's meeting his future wife (e.g., moving in together, settling down, finding jobs in her area, etc.). It took him 6 relationships to go horribly wrong to finally recognize the pattern. Don't be this guy, find people who are cool being poly from the beginning.
I think you might be be missing the fact that it was her partner who reacted poorly, so she might not have otherwise had a problem with the situation. I wouldn't say it automatically means "yes you guys should absolutely talk about this regardless of the details of the situation," but I do feel like it puts the option of talking about it back on the table. In that previous relationship, was she the one to bring up the idea? Or was the partner? Or was it both of them? If she was involved in bringing it up, that's not a bad sign. You said she's open to the idea in theory, so that's also not a bad sign.
I am in a long-term open relationship myself, but neither of us have all that much experience with some of the more complicated issues involved yet... and I don't remember how we brought it up. We were both okay with the idea to begin with, and we talked about this pretty early in the relationship, so I think when my S.O. brought it up I was just like "Oh yeah that stuff? I have no problems with it, and... actually that would be pretty cool. We could totally do that. Let us do this thing." So I don't know if I have much advice to bring to this specific conversation... But like somebody said earlier, IF you both decide this is something you might want to explore, you need to decide exactly what you guys are planning to do in terms of the additional relationship(s)/sex partners. Do you want emotional involvement? Will it be for each individual person, or only for the pair of you? Or both at different times? Et cetera. And to avoid as much jealousy as possible, you MUST agree to allow both parties the option to veto anything that's making them uncomfortable, and you should almost certainly be telling each other about each person you're going to be with and deciding what the ground rules for doing things with those people are. ... Basically just tons of communication about everything during the whole thing. Lots of people have serious issues communicating even in a monogamous relationship, so you can imagine what happens when you start bringing additional people into the equation.
There are many different kinds of non-traditional relationships, and you should have a really clear idea of exactly what you're looking for before you try to present this. Be prepared not only for a 'hell no' but also for her to seriously reconsider your relationship no matter WHAT you say. Basically, be prepared to lose her over this conversation. I get the feeling you're well aware of this on some level, because you started with the statement about kids or shared property. But you need a chance to tell her what you need, and she needs a chance to say yes or no. No one should feel trapped by a relationship that has terms they can't live with. No matter what kind of relationship you're after, there is someone out there who wants that too who can share it with you.
I think you should have the conversation; this is clearly important to you to the point where you feel you need it. I think it's important for you to be honest about your feelings. It's good to start with how much you love her and always want to be together. The reason you have to be very sure of what kind of relationship you're looking for is that it's best to start out pretty broad and narrow it down to specifics as you go, because if she's with you for a while and you lose her along the way, you want to have a really good idea of what the disconnect is so you can discuss it.
Try not to have a "script", per se. It won't help like you think it will. Reading off a piece of paper how sincere you are tends to convey the opposite. Just know where you're going with all this. Do you want to be able to have one-night stands? Are you just after sex, or is it about the relationship? These distinctions are important. Is it important that you be able to talk to her about your exploits? Some people are okay with it as long as keep it to yourself. That may be fine, or may be unsatisfying to you because you want to include her. Be honest with yourself, and be honest with her.
I don't mind being @ mentioned or PM'd, so feel free.
I wouldn't recommend bringing the script or any kind of notepad / cue cards with you to the conversation you want to have with your ladyfriend, either. She either reciprocates the feelings or she doesn't, and letting your own feelings be known to her will likely prompt her to let you know what's up. I can't imagine that she needs or wants a thesis about why you have feelings for her or what kind of relationship you want to have with her if you haven't even established that a relationship is a thing that can even exist between you yet.
My experience with the pro-poly literature, and of course this is just my experience, is that it typically paints the picture of the 'white picket fence' marriage or monogamous relationship and tells the reader that this is a mirage, often results in unhappy people trapped in failed / failing relationships, etc. While none of that is untrue, in my opinion, it's dishonest to say that poly relationships are a solution to these sorts of problems, which is often the impression a reader is left with.
In my opinion, and of course take it with a very large grain of salt, that same 'white picket fence' syndrome only gets more complicated when you introduce more partners rather than addressing the fact that you are no longer interested in your current partner.
Sorry to have conflated open and poly; I'm not educated on the distinction there.
The ability to express oneself fully without interruption, and for the person one is talking to to be able to clearly identify each point they wish to revisit is extremely valuable and should not be discounted, especially for an issue which has many complex facets.
I also think it's unlikely to know 100% what kind of relationship works for you from the get-go. Again, even people with fixed sexual orientations sometimes need to have some experiences to confirm/cement their attractions to one sex or the other (or both/neither). So maybe presenting this with a bit more humility, with an attitude of "I'm not sure exactly if this is the best thing for us, but I feel very strongly about trying it," will earn more points than offloading all of it in this "I've already made up my mind about this" sort of way.
Also, people in general are much more compelled to be giving if they feel it was their idea to do so, and not something they feel like they've been begged or coerced into. If she loves you, and truly okay with the idea of being in an open relationship, she will suggest it out of her own volition if you express how important it is for you to be that way.
My only problem with some poly/open literature and thinking is that a lot of it seems to malign traditional monogamous relationships. There should never be a sense that one kind of relationship is inherently better than the other.
I agree to the extent that if that's your takeaway you're definitely reading the wrong stuff.. and that's what I mean when I say that everyone should be free to have the kind of relationship they're comfortable with, and that often means letting go of someone for whom that means something different.
For me, you don't want to give that list because it makes it sound like you went looking for ways to justify cheating, and that's entirely the opposite of the impression you're looking to give here.
I have to be honest, I've not read anything that presents poly relationships as anything other than a lifestyle that works best and is comfortable and happy for some people. Certainly never as a solution for people who are generally unhappy in their current relationships.. pretty much the opposite: that if you aren't happy and stable in your current relationship, you shouldn't be trying to introduce more partners. Basically if I read anything that attacks the validity of the type of relationship that makes someone else happy, I immediately throw it out the window. Life's too short for that crap, and that is inclusive of everyone's life, not just mine. As the mod of this forum I expect to see equal respect for pretty much any relationship configuration out there, even if it's not what works best for us.
While you aren't going to be able to know off the bat what works in the end, you need to be able to present what you're looking for from all this very clearly, with the caveat that it's something you want to try out and not the exact scenario that everyone will be happy with. If you don't know what you want, you can't explain it along with your reasoning to someone else, and no script is going to change that. Definitely work out what you want to put across, but be flexible, and try to make it clear that this is something you want to try rather than laying down how it's going to be. You have a much better chance of gaining her understanding that way. Also be aware that the second you go out and do something that you haven't agreed upon as being within the bounds of your relationship you are wrong, because trust is everything.
Because the fallout from failed attempts disrupts the unit.
Military style living..especially early on for enlisted folks is loaded with teens and early 20s who are bored and horny. Its like a neverending tidal wave of freshman year at college. The odds that your multiple partners will be within the same command structures is HIGH. All it takes is one of them to get jealous...on either side, from either sex. Jealous people raise all kinds of hell, and when you brink rank and the UCMJ into it, the fallout is significant.
Now factor that across half a million active service and reservist members.
Because adultery is a violation of military law (Uniform Code of Military Justice). It's an old tradition dating way back, having to do with wartime deployments and infidelity.
This is also why you should just burn that essay up there. This is not an intellectual problem - my wife knows intellectually that her various insecurities regarding our relationship or her family or my friends or whatever are irrational and unfounded, but that doesn't matter. She still has them, they're very deeply programmed by past experience, and I still accommodate her, because we are monogamous and doing so causes me no particular hardship. I could talk till I'm blue in the face that she's being irrational and dump enough logic on her to make Spock hide his ears in shame and it doesn't matter because she already KNOWS that, after a point I'm just badgering her for no damn reason.
She will either be open to the idea or not. If she is not, you might be able to push her into some level of intellectual agreement, but you are very unlikely to budge her on her underlying reasons or erase her past experience, and that's a recipe for disaster. Even if she IS open to the idea, those things are still a recipe for disaster, a landmine in the middle of your relationship just waiting for a problem to roll by set it off. Especially if she's doing this because she believes it the only way to preserve the relationship, which is a distinct possibility if you manage to finish reading your term paper to her.
Thanks for this. The people I've talked to said it was never given as a reason for demotion or discharge, but timing made it very clear.
So, there you have it. You can request a change to the way the relationship operates, and she can choose to accommodate. However, looking to renegotiate the foundational rules of your relationship opens the conversation up to whether it's sustainable.
If this is definitely something you want, bring it up. She'll agree or you guys will break up. Now that you know that this is something you want, you can then preface all new relationships with a clear statement of your intent.
Non-monogamy is a big change though. It is true that people change over a relationship, but sometimes they change into people that can no longer be in that relationship.
You seem a little angry at this random internet person being dismissive of your argument. How are you going to handle it if your wife just says flat "no" or gets upset? From the sound of it, the issue already destroyed one relationship for her, so she's probably going to have strong emotions attached.
If she says no, don't pull out your reading list and say "But x, y, and z say this, this, and this!" She will hear "You are wrong for feeling that way, and here are reasons why you are wrong." Just accept the decision and respect her enough to let it lie.
Personally, I'm not polyamorous, and have no personal desire to become such. If it works for you, it works for you- it's not my place to tell you what relationships are good or bad. I just feel that all relationships start with the same three feelings- trust, love and respect, and you can't have a relationship without all of them.
One concern I do have is that third paragraph under "My desires" on your script of sorts. You mention you want to engage with other women, engage in group sex, and watch her having sex. There's no mention of her engaging with other men. Is that just an oversight?
I can has cheezburger, yes?
They're not married. But yeah.