J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
As a jungler, I'll sit in the brush behind the buff til 4 seconds before it spawns, then I'll move to the other brush and pull the big mob into it. If they were smart enough to sit in the river and wait, or fast enough to get there and know to ward that brush before I'm in it, then I feel I probably have more immediate issues in regards to my opponent.
Lately I've been going machete/ward/2 pots and warding my own buff before walking to the one I plan to take. Posturing for an invade is really a waste of time usually, I'll counter invade if I see them go for my buff and take theirs, but most times I'm quite content just getting my own. (Unless I'm playing Shaco or Eve, then I'm going to be taking my first buff and hopefully both of theirs. Either from the mobs or off their dead body.)
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. Or if I'm blue side and my bot lane has hard CC I'll just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it "free" to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
Joshmvii on
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
As a jungler, I'll sit in the brush behind the buff til 4 seconds before it spawns, then I'll move to the other brush and pull the big mob into it. If they were smart enough to sit in the river and wait, or fast enough to get there and know to ward that brush before I'm in it, then I feel I probably have more immediate issues in regards to my opponent.
Lately I've been going machete/ward/2 pots and warding my own buff before walking to the one I plan to take. Posturing for an invade is really a waste of time usually, I'll counter invade if I see them go for my buff and take theirs, but most times I'm quite content just getting my own. (Unless I'm playing Shaco or Eve, then I'm going to be taking my first buff and hopefully both of theirs. Either from the mobs or off their dead body.)
No, this is for second buff, it's already been up.
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
As a jungler, I'll sit in the brush behind the buff til 4 seconds before it spawns, then I'll move to the other brush and pull the big mob into it. If they were smart enough to sit in the river and wait, or fast enough to get there and know to ward that brush before I'm in it, then I feel I probably have more immediate issues in regards to my opponent.
Lately I've been going machete/ward/2 pots and warding my own buff before walking to the one I plan to take. Posturing for an invade is really a waste of time usually, I'll counter invade if I see them go for my buff and take theirs, but most times I'm quite content just getting my own. (Unless I'm playing Shaco or Eve, then I'm going to be taking my first buff and hopefully both of theirs. Either from the mobs or off their dead body.)
No, this is for second buff, it's already been up.
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
I agree with @Joshmvii. At this point in the game i don't even bother getting my blue until after my red unless i'm going Udyr or some strong invade jungler then i'll go blue right to their red. I start red 90% of the time, granted in normals the invade rate is around 7%. Not only does it help to stop a red stealer but it gives me a little added dps to finish the route faster. I also bullseye right for the 2nd buff, no stopping for wraiths/wolves.
"Look out here comes"..."Susan"..."Suuuuuuuuuuuuusan".
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I agree with @Joshmvii. At this point in the game i don't even bother getting my blue until after my red unless i'm going Udyr or some strong invade jungler then i'll go blue right to their red. I start red 90% of the time, granted in normals the invade rate is around 7%. Not only does it help to stop a red stealer but it gives me a little added dps to finish the route faster. I also bullseye right for the 2nd buff, no stopping for wraiths/wolves.
I had my red stolen once. After I saw it had been taken I b-lined it to the enemy red and murdered the fucker and took his red.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
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0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
No Josh, I literally just told you, you're waiting in the reverse brush with the actual brush next to the buff warded. It is impossible to pull the buff into there so you can keep watch. You smite on them, you're a level up, then you ruin them. If you botch the Smite, they're still at 1/3 health while you're close to full, you still have time to get away or even win regardless.
This is easiest to do when you're on Blue side, because most Purple junglers start Blue side to get their leash from bot lane, so you can go Red->Red for even higher combat power.
Varus is pretty fun and is someone that I feel can carry pretty well in solo queue due to his lane burst and hard CC ultimate.
Really the answer is Quinn, she has a bit of everything between scaling pretty hard from her passive and W, having pretty decent and spammable escapes on her E and having all in dueling from her Q and going burd mode.
Most importantly though it lets you turn into a fucking eagle and murder the shit out of people.
I want to like both of these--especially Quinn. But Quinn just doesn't click for me--I can't actually use the vault to escape, and of course my melee judgment is so very bad, so bird mode is basically suicide.
Varus should be amazing, but I get too wrapped up in the Blight stacks minigame, and also haven't figured out optimal use of his Q. I probably just need to practice him a bit more next time he's free.
It's also a problem that they're both 6300 IP. I'm still playing this game for $0, because I'm afraid that if I spend any money on it, I will spend ALL THE MONEY on it.
Man, now I'm really looking forward to trying some more ranked tonight. Going to keep playing Caitlyn for now because I feel really comfortable with the positioning. I should really throw out more EQs though; I'm always so focused on running away that I don't think about doing more damage. I also hear that you can ER, which is ridiculous and awesome.
Varus is pretty fun and is someone that I feel can carry pretty well in solo queue due to his lane burst and hard CC ultimate.
Really the answer is Quinn, she has a bit of everything between scaling pretty hard from her passive and W, having pretty decent and spammable escapes on her E and having all in dueling from her Q and going burd mode.
Most importantly though it lets you turn into a fucking eagle and murder the shit out of people.
For me Birdmode is 90% of the time for fleeing. I've only used it to run down and kill a few times (which is SO satisfying).
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
No Josh, I literally just told you, you're waiting in the reverse brush with the actual brush next to the buff warded. It is impossible to pull the buff into there so you can keep watch. You smite on them, you're a level up, then you ruin them. If you botch the Smite, they're still at 1/3 health while you're close to full, you still have time to get away or even win regardless.
This is easiest to do when you're on Blue side, because most Purple junglers start Blue side to get their leash from bot lane, so you can go Red->Red for even higher combat power.
If they position it correctly, you're not in smite range from the brush behind the red buff camp. Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there. If he just waits a few seconds to see if you go to your red, then he has the choice to ask his lanes to collapse on you in that brush you're camping and they chase you off, or he just goes to your red and takes it. Even if you had it warded, you're too far away to get there before he smites it so your only recourse is to take his red if you have time and his lanes didn't already burn your flash and health.
Against competent opponents stealing one of their first two buffs just doesn't happen. It's all about out mind gaming the other jungler during the first 3 minutes of the game. My posts are colored by my experience though, and frankly, I don't get out mind gamed by enemy junglers. At my high silver/low gold MMR though, I'm basically playing a different game than the junglers I face. At most points in the game I could tell you where their jungler is with probably 75% accuracy at any given time.
I'm not trying to be combative with you, just give my views on what we're talking about. You sound like you know what you're doing in the jungle too, so I'm not trying to take anything away from that. I'm actually interested in how the changes on the PBE will effect my jungling invade strategies, now that you have to kill the entire buff camp to get the level exp.
Can't just smite their buff to hit level 3 any more so you have to make a decision there. My current freelo jungle strat is just to run Eve with ignite/smite and just go all in on them at their red buff if I think they started blue. I start at my red and go to theirs also so it's pretty much an impossible 1v1 for anybody who starts blue since I have red buff ignite advantage.
Extra points because even if they ward for their jungler, unless they invested a pink at level 1 they have no chance of seeing it coming.
Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there.
This is a thing supports are supposed to be doing? Because that sounds like a fast track to a potentially dead support to me.
I feel like I'm spamming spells with Sona all the time and part of that is poor positioning on my ADC to heal them...but i'd think i'd hit that limit real quick.=
Yes. Generally its better to get tanky support items (or trololol AP items) as Sona. Tanky Support items can put you has a front line (if you're stomping) or a body block/peel (if you're not stomping). It makes it much easier to get strong ults off. Many of the tanky support items come with a large amount of MP/5 and HP/5 (so more ability to spam spells and less need to spam heal) anyway.
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
No Josh, I literally just told you, you're waiting in the reverse brush with the actual brush next to the buff warded. It is impossible to pull the buff into there so you can keep watch. You smite on them, you're a level up, then you ruin them. If you botch the Smite, they're still at 1/3 health while you're close to full, you still have time to get away or even win regardless.
This is easiest to do when you're on Blue side, because most Purple junglers start Blue side to get their leash from bot lane, so you can go Red->Red for even higher combat power.
If they position it correctly, you're not in smite range from the brush behind the red buff camp. Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there. If he just waits a few seconds to see if you go to your red, then he has the choice to ask his lanes to collapse on you in that brush you're camping and they chase you off, or he just goes to your red and takes it. Even if you had it warded, you're too far away to get there before he smites it so your only recourse is to take his red if you have time and his lanes didn't already burn your flash and health.
Against competent opponents stealing one of their first two buffs just doesn't happen. It's all about out mind gaming the other jungler during the first 3 minutes of the game. My posts are colored by my experience though, and frankly, I don't get out mind gamed by enemy junglers. At my high silver/low gold MMR though, I'm basically playing a different game than the junglers I face. At most points in the game I could tell you where their jungler is with probably 75% accuracy at any given time.
I'm not trying to be combative with you, just give my views on what we're talking about. You sound like you know what you're doing in the jungle too, so I'm not trying to take anything away from that. I'm actually interested in how the changes on the PBE will effect my jungling invade strategies, now that you have to kill the entire buff camp to get the level exp.
Can't just smite their buff to hit level 3 any more so you have to make a decision there. My current freelo jungle strat is just to run Eve with ignite/smite and just go all in on them at their red buff if I think they started blue. I start at my red and go to theirs also so it's pretty much an impossible 1v1 for anybody who starts blue since I have red buff ignite advantage.
Extra points because even if they ward for their jungler, unless they invested a pink at level 1 they have no chance of seeing it coming.
Best buff steal is still the Shaco school of murdering them for it.
Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there.
This is a thing supports are supposed to be doing? Because that sounds like a fast track to a potentially dead support to me.
It's a thing that should be done, and is assumed in the discussion we're having. If you're planning to invade an enemy jungler you should always be warding what you think will be his 2nd buff. You don't make the support go ward by himself anyway though, and even if you're caught, chances of death are low.
Think of it this way, you rush to their red buff against a team you think will start blue. Who is going to see you coming? If they're planning to start blue, then their top/mid/jungle or bot/mid/jungle are probably protecting the blue. So if they are in fact starting blue, the worst thing you'll run into is their bot adc/support or their top laner alone.
Assuming the enemy is blue side, chances are their adc/support are in the tribrush, because for whatever reason they like to sit in there together. Nobody will be at wraiths, which is the way you'll enter. Then you dip into the brush behind red, then you hug the wall and drop the ward in the brush by red.
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade. Then you change your plan accordingly.
When I jungle, I 100% ask my support to ward one of the enemy buffs for me, usually red. It almost always turns in to one of these 3 things:
1) I first blood the jungle
2) I burn his flash/health and force him to go B. If the buff is low I just finish it and leave.
3) I leave and go get my own blue(I started red), then wait until he comes back to try to get the red after his B and scrap with him again, hopefully now killing him.
The early jungle game is so crucial. If you can keep their jungler from ganking in the first 4 minutes and also potentially keep him level 2 when the rest of the map is hitting 4 and 5, it's a massive game changer. It means no ganks for him, and no danger of a counter gank turning anything, because you're so strong relative to him you kill everything in a 2v2 or 3v3.
J4 is not a jungler you do a 2 minute red invade with IMO. His damage isn't that good. If you're going to invade and kill or chase off Amumu at his red you need to be somebody who can kill him before his lanes even react. Udyr, Shyvana, Shaco, Lee Sin, etc. Not to mention, if dude did his blue buff, then you had time to do blue and get to your red brush before he did then there was something wrong with that dude. It just shouldn't have been possible.
It's not that hard to not get invaded in solo queue though honestly, if you want to play Amumu or whatever. You can just have your support ward your red, or safer yet, just start at your red buff. The other guys probably aren't going to ward anything so if you start red he'll just show up to your red and waste his time.
No this is completely wrong
J2's L2 invade is strong because the CC he does when he goes in means that he gets their buff for free. Then J2 beats their face in.
If your post is meaning to say that J4's knockup makes it easy for him to smite steal the buff, I'd remind you that nothing except suppression stops smite so that has no bearing whatsoever.
Also, if you're not dumb you check the brush for invade and then pull the buff into the brush before attacking it as well so the other guy can't just sit there until it's low enough for a surprise smite.
Why did you not ward their buff before you got there?
You always check the reverse side brush every time? I seriously doubt that.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I 100% start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. If I'm blue side I'll typically just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it easy to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
No Josh, I literally just told you, you're waiting in the reverse brush with the actual brush next to the buff warded. It is impossible to pull the buff into there so you can keep watch. You smite on them, you're a level up, then you ruin them. If you botch the Smite, they're still at 1/3 health while you're close to full, you still have time to get away or even win regardless.
This is easiest to do when you're on Blue side, because most Purple junglers start Blue side to get their leash from bot lane, so you can go Red->Red for even higher combat power.
If they position it correctly, you're not in smite range from the brush behind the red buff camp. Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there. If he just waits a few seconds to see if you go to your red, then he has the choice to ask his lanes to collapse on you in that brush you're camping and they chase you off, or he just goes to your red and takes it. Even if you had it warded, you're too far away to get there before he smites it so your only recourse is to take his red if you have time and his lanes didn't already burn your flash and health.
Against competent opponents stealing one of their first two buffs just doesn't happen. It's all about out mind gaming the other jungler during the first 3 minutes of the game. My posts are colored by my experience though, and frankly, I don't get out mind gamed by enemy junglers. At my high silver/low gold MMR though, I'm basically playing a different game than the junglers I face. At most points in the game I could tell you where their jungler is with probably 75% accuracy at any given time.
I'm not trying to be combative with you, just give my views on what we're talking about. You sound like you know what you're doing in the jungle too, so I'm not trying to take anything away from that. I'm actually interested in how the changes on the PBE will effect my jungling invade strategies, now that you have to kill the entire buff camp to get the level exp.
Can't just smite their buff to hit level 3 any more so you have to make a decision there. My current freelo jungle strat is just to run Eve with ignite/smite and just go all in on them at their red buff if I think they started blue. I start at my red and go to theirs also so it's pretty much an impossible 1v1 for anybody who starts blue since I have red buff ignite advantage.
Extra points because even if they ward for their jungler, unless they invested a pink at level 1 they have no chance of seeing it coming.
Best buff steal is still the Shaco school of murdering them for it.
If I play Shaco I just box my red super heavily, have my top or bot(depending on side of the map) finish killing it and the small lizards for me, then go smite my blue, then i'm at their red level 3 double buffs with ignite ready to rumble. Now that I think about it though, this strat no longer works after next patch unless you can get your top/bot to make sure your boxes kill the buff and the little guys due to the exp change, and that's probably too risky. I mean, you'll still be able to make it work just because of how fast Shaco kills the first buff with boxes, but it won't be quite as foolproof.
I'm honestly super bad at Shaco anyway though. Fine at counter jungling, but not that good at ganking with him(even though it should be easy), and awful at team fighting with him. I only win games with Shaco if I beat the enemy jungler so badly that I snowball off it and just split push and pick people off all game in skirmishes.
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade.
So what you're saying is that you'll be running into four of them and they'll see you coming long before you can see them.
I have seen this very scenario play out a few times. It does not go well for the support.
My Shaco is improving. Honestly he's the most challenging Jungler I've played. At least to do well against people who aren't totally pants on head. It's still terribly satisfying to send your clone out to walk past someone, they go to chase, and you deceive up and backstab them for ludicrous damage before turning your clone around to murder them. Backstab OP.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I don't see Shaco often anymore. Last time I saw a Shaco he stole my red and I stole his life.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade.
So what you're saying is that you'll be running into four of them and they'll see you coming long before you can see them.
I have seen this very scenario play out a few times. It does not go well for the support.
You are trying to ward red against junglers you think will start blue. If they happen to start red then you'll see them before they can jump on you. One of them will be standing by their wraiths and when you see anybody but the bot lane at wraiths you know there are a bunch there. If they're all camping the brush behind their red waiting on the ward place, then they just out mind gamed you. It's rare.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited July 2013
Don't bother deep warding buffs as Support in solo queue before minions spawn.
If I really need to know where their Jungler is going after Blue + Red, I ward the Wraith ramp as late as possible and deep enough to see the Wraith bush before heading to lane. This helps literally your entire team because it gives a pretty good guess of where their Jungler is if you don't spot him.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade.
So what you're saying is that you'll be running into four of them and they'll see you coming long before you can see them.
I have seen this very scenario play out a few times. It does not go well for the support.
You are trying to ward red against junglers you think will start blue. If they happen to start red then you'll see them before they can jump on you. One of them will be standing by their wraiths and when you see anybody but the bot lane at wraiths you know there are a bunch there. If they're all camping the brush behind their red waiting on the ward place, then they just out mind gamed you. It's rare.
Why on Earth would any of them just be standing visibly by their wraiths? They're going to be in a bush somewhere, and if the jungler's starting red (as pretty much every jungler can do at the moment) then they're almost certainly going to be in the bushes closest to the river before about 1:50.
That's not unusual placement, it's where I see teams start pretty much every time that their jungler's doing red.
Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there.
This is a thing supports are supposed to be doing? Because that sounds like a fast track to a potentially dead support to me.
It's a thing that should be done, and is assumed in the discussion we're having. If you're planning to invade an enemy jungler you should always be warding what you think will be his 2nd buff. You don't make the support go ward by himself anyway though, and even if you're caught, chances of death are low.
Think of it this way, you rush to their red buff against a team you think will start blue. Who is going to see you coming? If they're planning to start blue, then their top/mid/jungle or bot/mid/jungle are probably protecting the blue. So if they are in fact starting blue, the worst thing you'll run into is their bot adc/support or their top laner alone.
Assuming the enemy is blue side, chances are their adc/support are in the tribrush, because for whatever reason they like to sit in there together. Nobody will be at wraiths, which is the way you'll enter. Then you dip into the brush behind red, then you hug the wall and drop the ward in the brush by red.
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade. Then you change your plan accordingly.
When I jungle, I 100% ask my support to ward one of the enemy buffs for me, usually red. It almost always turns in to one of these 3 things:
1) I first blood the jungle
2) I burn his flash/health and force him to go B. If the buff is low I just finish it and leave.
3) I leave and go get my own blue(I started red), then wait until he comes back to try to get the red after his B and scrap with him again, hopefully now killing him.
The early jungle game is so crucial. If you can keep their jungler from ganking in the first 4 minutes and also potentially keep him level 2 when the rest of the map is hitting 4 and 5, it's a massive game changer. It means no ganks for him, and no danger of a counter gank turning anything, because you're so strong relative to him you kill everything in a 2v2 or 3v3.
I see an awful lot of defensive layouts that include at least one player watching for an invade by standing in the back bush (and another in tri-bush if it's the adc lane).
Shouldn't stop someone from going in to put down a ward, but it's a fair assumption that there is someone there to spot you.
There should be someone there to stop the ward placement, or at least see that they came. Problem is, we're talking about solo queue. I'm telling you from personal experience that it simply doesn't happen.
Another tale from the land of being positive to win ranked games. I go Eve jungle. I'm against Nautilus. I don't even bother warding, I know he'll go red after blue. I let my team know what i'm doing, and we start red. I go to his red and camp for about 20 seconds. He's obviously doing small camps and I noticed my top Jax and their top Rumble are going agro as hell at level 2, both about half health, with jax a bit lower. Jax pings for me to come, so I abandon my red camp and go top through their tri. Jax jumps in on Rumble and Rumble gets FB but I clean up the kill.
I tell Jax "It's all good man, but I coulda cleaned that up solo, no need for you to jump back in, at least before me." Naut gets his first 2 buffs but I just go grab my blue, then I gank mid. Their nidalee makes a pretty damn good play when she realizes she's going to die no matter what and flashes the wall toward my wraiths to try to finish my Kassadin with ignite before I can get around to get her. She ALMOST gets him, like 20 health, but I kill her. I compliment her play in all chat and tell her I was sure she was going to get him.
We go on to stomp the game completely, I pressure everywhere as Eve is wont to do, my Jax helps me take their red buffs at ~8 minutes and ~13 minutes, so I let him take them and I just take my own. He wins easily. Mid Kass kinda goes even but makes plays around the map. Our bot Ezreal/Sona just crushed their Vayne/Nunu, so I basically never ganked them but just complimented them on winning despite me not pressuring them.
Game ends in a huge stomp, but what do I see from the enemy? Congrats to me on the pressure I put on them, we all say GG, honor is passed around, and we move on to the next game. I've taken to telling everybody good luck in their future games instead of just GG WP at the end of games as well. I'm trying to make people feel good about playing this video game even if they lose.
Positive attitudes. That and Eve jungle is going to get me to gold, I'm sure of it. =P
Varus is pretty fun and is someone that I feel can carry pretty well in solo queue due to his lane burst and hard CC ultimate.
Really the answer is Quinn, she has a bit of everything between scaling pretty hard from her passive and W, having pretty decent and spammable escapes on her E and having all in dueling from her Q and going burd mode.
Most importantly though it lets you turn into a fucking eagle and murder the shit out of people.
I want to like both of these--especially Quinn. But Quinn just doesn't click for me--I can't actually use the vault to escape, and of course my melee judgment is so very bad, so bird mode is basically suicide.
Varus should be amazing, but I get too wrapped up in the Blight stacks minigame, and also haven't figured out optimal use of his Q. I probably just need to practice him a bit more next time he's free.
It's also a problem that they're both 6300 IP. I'm still playing this game for $0, because I'm afraid that if I spend any money on it, I will spend ALL THE MONEY on it.
Man, now I'm really looking forward to trying some more ranked tonight. Going to keep playing Caitlyn for now because I feel really comfortable with the positioning. I should really throw out more EQs though; I'm always so focused on running away that I don't think about doing more damage. I also hear that you can ER, which is ridiculous and awesome.
Varus is indeed fun, I've been doing pretty well with him in my quest to not suck as an ad carry. I think the best way to use him in lane is to poke with his Q and if you get the chance to AA them a few times use your E to pop the blight, then if they back off you can follow up with Q for even more damage.
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
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Metal JaredMulligan WizardRhode IslandRegistered Userregular
So I started playing Zyra support because, 1 she's fun and two, I feel like I have a great overall effect for my team with her CC, but I do have a question. After I build philo/boots/sightstone I always just want to build AP to help with damage output. What's the best way of going about this if my Jungler has built Agis/Locket so I don't have to
So I started playing Zyra support because, 1 she's fun and two, I feel like I have a great overall effect for my team with her CC, but I do have a question. After I build philo/boots/sightstone I always just want to build AP to help with damage output. What's the best way of going about this if my Jungler has built Agis/Locket so I don't have to
Liandry's and/or Morellonomicon. Liandry's is incredible on her because her plants proc it, and Morello's is good because it's cheap, caps her CDR and can help finish off enemies with some form of health regen.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited July 2013
I really enjoy Rylai's on support Zyra. Really good for keeping people pinned in place during teamfights and makes her ult knockup a little harder to get out of.
I don't even get Philo on her. I get a Kage's if I plan on making Morello or Spooky Ghosts; if not I get a Doran's Ring so I can just buy more wards with the gold difference.
If I situationally need Shurelya's, I get the Kindle Gem first and often times I'll try to avoid getting the Philo altogether and get the full purchase in one go.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
So I started playing Zyra support because, 1 she's fun and two, I feel like I have a great overall effect for my team with her CC, but I do have a question. After I build philo/boots/sightstone I always just want to build AP to help with damage output. What's the best way of going about this if my Jungler has built Agis/Locket so I don't have to
Morellonomicon == most efficient single damage item (due to CDR and MP5)
After that, whatever you think is best and attainable. Guise/Void/Rylai's are probably best
edit: i should expand. CDR on someone like Zyra who gets free CDR is very efficient because CDR has increasing returns to scale.
I.E. first 10% gives you 11% DPS, second 10% gives you 12.5% DPS and so on and so forth. Since Zyra gets a free 20% CDR from her w, the 20% on Morello gives her 33% DPS compared to the 25% it gives someone else. Note that it also significantly increases the likelihood that you can get more spells off in a relevant time frame as CDR gets higher
Now, theoretically, bot lane should be a symbyotic relationship. Support provides harass, harass allows the Marksman to farm, Marksman follows up on harass to confirm kills(or Lulu just kills them). So on and so forth.
A support is technically in place, to alleviate some of the dueling responsibility, and allow the Marksman to focus on obtaining the maximum amount of CS.
Now, my problem, of late is functioning effectivley in either role, when the other half is deficient. If you are doing a good job of harassing, placing wards, babyproofing, if you will, and your Marksman just plain isn't good at CS, or refuses to not safely farm/harass and run ass deep into thier backlines to duel a Blue Ez.
Or the reverse, when your support has so little lane presense that the carry/support can just walk past said support, ignoring them entierly, and punching your face in even if you are at max range.
This has been my biggest hurdle so far in ranked play. I love the nuances of bot lane. It's where I feel I can significantly affect the game, laning, and teamfight phase.
However, there is something I feel I am missing here. I KNOW it's possible to carry your lane partner bot simply by mechanical skill, no matter who you're facing.
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
If you're a Marksman and your Support is bad, you accept the bad lane and farm as safely as possible. Act as if your partner isn't even there so you don't get baited into bad engagements. Take your jungle farm when you can if you're getting zoned from creeps.
If you're a Support and your Marksman is bad, you leave lane and tell him not to die. Go make plays elsewhere like ganking for Mid or following your Jungler into the enemy jungle. You don't babysit someone you know won't repay the team for the babysitting.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Talk to your ADC/Support before the game. If they don't play a lot of support and aren't comfortable with it ask what their preferred champions are and suggest a playstyle similar to that.
If they play mid a lot, then a ranged harass support is good and leona is probably bad. If they play top/jungle alot suggest Leona or Alistar. If they don't play anything and want to stay behind you suggest Janna.
If they're your ADC(and farming bad) just let them farm poorly. Farming poorly is OK so long as they're out farming the other guy. If you're doing your job well they will be, or at least will be in a position where they're not losing the lane*. Everyone misses CS, what matters is more being ahead of the enemy(relative to late game scaling) rather than having a high raw number.
If they're your ADC and trying to duel when they can't ping back unless you're going to go in. Then ping forward right before you go.
*Also its good to know what "losing the lane" means. E.G. If you're cait, and you're even in CS, you're losing the lane.
Now, theoretically, bot lane should be a symbyotic relationship. Support provides harass, harass allows the Marksman to farm, Marksman follows up on harass to confirm kills(or Lulu just kills them). So on and so forth.
A support is technically in place, to alleviate some of the dueling responsibility, and allow the Marksman to focus on obtaining the maximum amount of CS.
Now, my problem, of late is functioning effectivley in either role, when the other half is deficient. If you are doing a good job of harassing, placing wards, babyproofing, if you will, and your Marksman just plain isn't good at CS, or refuses to not safely farm/harass and run ass deep into thier backlines to duel a Blue Ez.
Or the reverse, when your support has so little lane presense that the carry/support can just walk past said support, ignoring them entierly, and punching your face in even if you are at max range.
This has been my biggest hurdle so far in ranked play. I love the nuances of bot lane. It's where I feel I can significantly affect the game, laning, and teamfight phase.
However, there is something I feel I am missing here. I KNOW it's possible to carry your lane partner bot simply by mechanical skill, no matter who you're facing.
So, I am clearly missing something. Any pointers?
Yes you can, but it is incredibly difficult.
Here are some pointers.
If you are an AD and have a bad support:
1. Buy a couple wards here and there. If your support isn't warding, unfortunately you have to. Make sure this doesn't eat into your budget too much, because it's precious. However, a few greens and you'll thank yourself (as opposed to your support)
2. Hang as FAR BACK AS POSSIBLE at all times. Even terrible supports feel vulnerable when they're way far up in lane and their friendly AD isn't even in dash range anymore. Hanging far back will make your support begrudgingly also hang somewhat far back, making both of you safer.
3. Try your best to punish your enemies for capitalizing on your support's mistakes. Your sona overextended, eh? If leona drops her CC on her, then punish MF with everything you've got without dying.
Not much time to provide the other side of things, but there are some ideas.
I've been on tilt for about 7 days now. I was mid gold IV now I'm 0 points gold V. Like I cannot get a game where 2 out of 3 lanes don't feed hard and demolish mid game. Today alone, 2 games, mid game rolls around and our team is down 12 kills. Twice in a row. I was top once and ADC once. I don't know what to do. I quite literally do not know what to do as an adc when we have 4 coming to bot, no one who can respond and no wards. It's beyond infuriating at this point.
League of Legends: Sorakanmyworld
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
Pretty sure i've never ever won a lane against Wu Kong.
I hate him.
demoted.
You may want to take a break and focus on some weaker aspects of your game in normal. I went on a massive loss streak like this and realized it was my attitude and lack of enjoyment in improving holding me back. Sometimes you got to take a break
I would like to take a moment to point out that I literally told you exactly this in the last thread a week or 2 ago
On that note, I've been on a solo queue walk about in order to suck less. Apparently people no longer ban Malphite regularly. TO THEIR DETRIMENT!
Posts
Is that Aatrox jungler I see? Wow haven't seen that since he first rolled out.
"Woah, I just scared myself!"
As a jungler, I'll sit in the brush behind the buff til 4 seconds before it spawns, then I'll move to the other brush and pull the big mob into it. If they were smart enough to sit in the river and wait, or fast enough to get there and know to ward that brush before I'm in it, then I feel I probably have more immediate issues in regards to my opponent.
Lately I've been going machete/ward/2 pots and warding my own buff before walking to the one I plan to take. Posturing for an invade is really a waste of time usually, I'll counter invade if I see them go for my buff and take theirs, but most times I'm quite content just getting my own. (Unless I'm playing Shaco or Eve, then I'm going to be taking my first buff and hopefully both of theirs. Either from the mobs or off their dead body.)
5% of the time it works 100% of the time.
Hypothetically, if I started blue then went red against a jungler that could kill me at it, I would 100% check to make sure they weren't there, and fight the red buff inside that brush.
In reality, if I'm a jungler who is weak early and against a jungler I think would invade my red if he's smart, I start at my red buff, ask my top/bot to just cover my blue to make sure it's not invaded/warded, and I tell my mid to take the long route to lane so the enemy jungler doesn't see that I got red buff leashed first. Or if I'm blue side and my bot lane has hard CC I'll just ask my support to ward my red and still start blue, just because the enemy jungler will usually just sit on a ward at red and then die when my bot lane just collapses on him and it's too late for him to get out.
It's not hard not to lose your first 2 buffs. It's not like you have to start at blue buff when you're playing Sejuani or whatever.
Either way, I was mainly responding to your indication that somehow J4's knockup makes it "free" to smite steal a buff, when in fact if the enemy jungler has the buff almost in smite range, EQ does nothing other than knock him up and he just smites his buff anyway. Sure, you can get outsmited like any other time, but you implied he gets a free buff from the CC, which leads me to think maybe you didn't know that smite isn't effected by anything but suppress?
This is bad practice because even 'strong' junglers are vulnerable to invades. I will gladly invade on even Lee Sin early on many characters.
I've never had someone manage the Smite while invading with J4. Even if they are not actually prevented from Smite, the vast majority of players won't do it correctly, especially as their first inclination will be to fight and/or run away. It freezes and short circuits their decision making.
Umm, everybody can be invaded, but if you're routinely invading champions that can kill you 1v1 easily then you're kind of just asking to die. The only way you get an advantage is if the other guy is a moron and just fights the buff and loses 25% of his health while you camp the brush next to him waiting for a smite steal/attack. I already covered that before, and the assumption should be made that the enemy jungler is not dumb enough to not fight the buff in the brush.
If somebody "freezes up" and misses their smite because you attack them at their buff, frankly they're just a shitty jungler and probably were going to lose the game anyway no matter what. When you're fighting your buff, the only thing that matters is making sure nobody else takes it. Especially right now as if they smite it properly then they're a level up on you and double buffed at least until next patch.
I'm not saying you're wrong that bad junglers always just run or fight you while still taking damage from their buff. That's true. But that doesn't mean all junglers are bad. The assumption must be made that your opponent knows what he's doing if you want to consistently make good decisions. Making decisions based on assuming your enemy is stupid will just make you do things that will get you killed when it turns out that he's not, like invading a jungler who can kill you 1v1.
"Woah, I just scared myself!"
I had my red stolen once. After I saw it had been taken I b-lined it to the enemy red and murdered the fucker and took his red.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
This is easiest to do when you're on Blue side, because most Purple junglers start Blue side to get their leash from bot lane, so you can go Red->Red for even higher combat power.
AP Janna is the only Janna.
I want to like both of these--especially Quinn. But Quinn just doesn't click for me--I can't actually use the vault to escape, and of course my melee judgment is so very bad, so bird mode is basically suicide.
Varus should be amazing, but I get too wrapped up in the Blight stacks minigame, and also haven't figured out optimal use of his Q. I probably just need to practice him a bit more next time he's free.
It's also a problem that they're both 6300 IP. I'm still playing this game for $0, because I'm afraid that if I spend any money on it, I will spend ALL THE MONEY on it.
Man, now I'm really looking forward to trying some more ranked tonight. Going to keep playing Caitlyn for now because I feel really comfortable with the positioning. I should really throw out more EQs though; I'm always so focused on running away that I don't think about doing more damage. I also hear that you can ER, which is ridiculous and awesome.
For me Birdmode is 90% of the time for fleeing. I've only used it to run down and kill a few times (which is SO satisfying).
If they position it correctly, you're not in smite range from the brush behind the red buff camp. Either way, this doesn't work against a competent team, because even if they started blue(which they probably didn't), and even if you did all this, your red buff would've been warded by their support too, so when their jungler doesn't see you at your red, he knows you're there. If he just waits a few seconds to see if you go to your red, then he has the choice to ask his lanes to collapse on you in that brush you're camping and they chase you off, or he just goes to your red and takes it. Even if you had it warded, you're too far away to get there before he smites it so your only recourse is to take his red if you have time and his lanes didn't already burn your flash and health.
Against competent opponents stealing one of their first two buffs just doesn't happen. It's all about out mind gaming the other jungler during the first 3 minutes of the game. My posts are colored by my experience though, and frankly, I don't get out mind gamed by enemy junglers. At my high silver/low gold MMR though, I'm basically playing a different game than the junglers I face. At most points in the game I could tell you where their jungler is with probably 75% accuracy at any given time.
I'm not trying to be combative with you, just give my views on what we're talking about. You sound like you know what you're doing in the jungle too, so I'm not trying to take anything away from that. I'm actually interested in how the changes on the PBE will effect my jungling invade strategies, now that you have to kill the entire buff camp to get the level exp.
Can't just smite their buff to hit level 3 any more so you have to make a decision there. My current freelo jungle strat is just to run Eve with ignite/smite and just go all in on them at their red buff if I think they started blue. I start at my red and go to theirs also so it's pretty much an impossible 1v1 for anybody who starts blue since I have red buff ignite advantage.
Extra points because even if they ward for their jungler, unless they invested a pink at level 1 they have no chance of seeing it coming.
This is a thing supports are supposed to be doing? Because that sounds like a fast track to a potentially dead support to me.
Yes. Generally its better to get tanky support items (or trololol AP items) as Sona. Tanky Support items can put you has a front line (if you're stomping) or a body block/peel (if you're not stomping). It makes it much easier to get strong ults off. Many of the tanky support items come with a large amount of MP/5 and HP/5 (so more ability to spam spells and less need to spam heal) anyway.
Sightstone
Mobo Boots
Then one of :
Reverie
Spooky Ghosts
Locket
Aegis
depending on the enemy team.
Best buff steal is still the Shaco school of murdering them for it.
It's a thing that should be done, and is assumed in the discussion we're having. If you're planning to invade an enemy jungler you should always be warding what you think will be his 2nd buff. You don't make the support go ward by himself anyway though, and even if you're caught, chances of death are low.
Think of it this way, you rush to their red buff against a team you think will start blue. Who is going to see you coming? If they're planning to start blue, then their top/mid/jungle or bot/mid/jungle are probably protecting the blue. So if they are in fact starting blue, the worst thing you'll run into is their bot adc/support or their top laner alone.
Assuming the enemy is blue side, chances are their adc/support are in the tribrush, because for whatever reason they like to sit in there together. Nobody will be at wraiths, which is the way you'll enter. Then you dip into the brush behind red, then you hug the wall and drop the ward in the brush by red.
If their jungler is planning to start red, you may run into him, the mid, and the bot lane, but if you do, chances are it'll be them seeing you from wraiths, and you'll know they're planning on starting red to counteract your invade. Then you change your plan accordingly.
When I jungle, I 100% ask my support to ward one of the enemy buffs for me, usually red. It almost always turns in to one of these 3 things:
1) I first blood the jungle
2) I burn his flash/health and force him to go B. If the buff is low I just finish it and leave.
3) I leave and go get my own blue(I started red), then wait until he comes back to try to get the red after his B and scrap with him again, hopefully now killing him.
The early jungle game is so crucial. If you can keep their jungler from ganking in the first 4 minutes and also potentially keep him level 2 when the rest of the map is hitting 4 and 5, it's a massive game changer. It means no ganks for him, and no danger of a counter gank turning anything, because you're so strong relative to him you kill everything in a 2v2 or 3v3.
If I play Shaco I just box my red super heavily, have my top or bot(depending on side of the map) finish killing it and the small lizards for me, then go smite my blue, then i'm at their red level 3 double buffs with ignite ready to rumble. Now that I think about it though, this strat no longer works after next patch unless you can get your top/bot to make sure your boxes kill the buff and the little guys due to the exp change, and that's probably too risky. I mean, you'll still be able to make it work just because of how fast Shaco kills the first buff with boxes, but it won't be quite as foolproof.
I'm honestly super bad at Shaco anyway though. Fine at counter jungling, but not that good at ganking with him(even though it should be easy), and awful at team fighting with him. I only win games with Shaco if I beat the enemy jungler so badly that I snowball off it and just split push and pick people off all game in skirmishes.
So what you're saying is that you'll be running into four of them and they'll see you coming long before you can see them.
I have seen this very scenario play out a few times. It does not go well for the support.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
You are trying to ward red against junglers you think will start blue. If they happen to start red then you'll see them before they can jump on you. One of them will be standing by their wraiths and when you see anybody but the bot lane at wraiths you know there are a bunch there. If they're all camping the brush behind their red waiting on the ward place, then they just out mind gamed you. It's rare.
If I really need to know where their Jungler is going after Blue + Red, I ward the Wraith ramp as late as possible and deep enough to see the Wraith bush before heading to lane. This helps literally your entire team because it gives a pretty good guess of where their Jungler is if you don't spot him.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Why on Earth would any of them just be standing visibly by their wraiths? They're going to be in a bush somewhere, and if the jungler's starting red (as pretty much every jungler can do at the moment) then they're almost certainly going to be in the bushes closest to the river before about 1:50.
That's not unusual placement, it's where I see teams start pretty much every time that their jungler's doing red.
I see an awful lot of defensive layouts that include at least one player watching for an invade by standing in the back bush (and another in tri-bush if it's the adc lane).
Shouldn't stop someone from going in to put down a ward, but it's a fair assumption that there is someone there to spot you.
Another tale from the land of being positive to win ranked games. I go Eve jungle. I'm against Nautilus. I don't even bother warding, I know he'll go red after blue. I let my team know what i'm doing, and we start red. I go to his red and camp for about 20 seconds. He's obviously doing small camps and I noticed my top Jax and their top Rumble are going agro as hell at level 2, both about half health, with jax a bit lower. Jax pings for me to come, so I abandon my red camp and go top through their tri. Jax jumps in on Rumble and Rumble gets FB but I clean up the kill.
I tell Jax "It's all good man, but I coulda cleaned that up solo, no need for you to jump back in, at least before me." Naut gets his first 2 buffs but I just go grab my blue, then I gank mid. Their nidalee makes a pretty damn good play when she realizes she's going to die no matter what and flashes the wall toward my wraiths to try to finish my Kassadin with ignite before I can get around to get her. She ALMOST gets him, like 20 health, but I kill her. I compliment her play in all chat and tell her I was sure she was going to get him.
We go on to stomp the game completely, I pressure everywhere as Eve is wont to do, my Jax helps me take their red buffs at ~8 minutes and ~13 minutes, so I let him take them and I just take my own. He wins easily. Mid Kass kinda goes even but makes plays around the map. Our bot Ezreal/Sona just crushed their Vayne/Nunu, so I basically never ganked them but just complimented them on winning despite me not pressuring them.
Game ends in a huge stomp, but what do I see from the enemy? Congrats to me on the pressure I put on them, we all say GG, honor is passed around, and we move on to the next game. I've taken to telling everybody good luck in their future games instead of just GG WP at the end of games as well. I'm trying to make people feel good about playing this video game even if they lose.
Positive attitudes. That and Eve jungle is going to get me to gold, I'm sure of it. =P
Varus is indeed fun, I've been doing pretty well with him in my quest to not suck as an ad carry. I think the best way to use him in lane is to poke with his Q and if you get the chance to AA them a few times use your E to pop the blight, then if they back off you can follow up with Q for even more damage.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
PSN: SoulCrusherJared
Liandry's and/or Morellonomicon. Liandry's is incredible on her because her plants proc it, and Morello's is good because it's cheap, caps her CDR and can help finish off enemies with some form of health regen.
I don't even get Philo on her. I get a Kage's if I plan on making Morello or Spooky Ghosts; if not I get a Doran's Ring so I can just buy more wards with the gold difference.
If I situationally need Shurelya's, I get the Kindle Gem first and often times I'll try to avoid getting the Philo altogether and get the full purchase in one go.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Morellonomicon == most efficient single damage item (due to CDR and MP5)
After that, whatever you think is best and attainable. Guise/Void/Rylai's are probably best
edit: i should expand. CDR on someone like Zyra who gets free CDR is very efficient because CDR has increasing returns to scale.
I.E. first 10% gives you 11% DPS, second 10% gives you 12.5% DPS and so on and so forth. Since Zyra gets a free 20% CDR from her w, the 20% on Morello gives her 33% DPS compared to the 25% it gives someone else. Note that it also significantly increases the likelihood that you can get more spells off in a relevant time frame as CDR gets higher
Now, theoretically, bot lane should be a symbyotic relationship. Support provides harass, harass allows the Marksman to farm, Marksman follows up on harass to confirm kills(or Lulu just kills them). So on and so forth.
A support is technically in place, to alleviate some of the dueling responsibility, and allow the Marksman to focus on obtaining the maximum amount of CS.
Now, my problem, of late is functioning effectivley in either role, when the other half is deficient. If you are doing a good job of harassing, placing wards, babyproofing, if you will, and your Marksman just plain isn't good at CS, or refuses to not safely farm/harass and run ass deep into thier backlines to duel a Blue Ez.
Or the reverse, when your support has so little lane presense that the carry/support can just walk past said support, ignoring them entierly, and punching your face in even if you are at max range.
This has been my biggest hurdle so far in ranked play. I love the nuances of bot lane. It's where I feel I can significantly affect the game, laning, and teamfight phase.
However, there is something I feel I am missing here. I KNOW it's possible to carry your lane partner bot simply by mechanical skill, no matter who you're facing.
So, I am clearly missing something. Any pointers?
It is probably easier to control the situation as ADC because you'd be the main damage dealer throughout the entirety of the game
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If you're a Support and your Marksman is bad, you leave lane and tell him not to die. Go make plays elsewhere like ganking for Mid or following your Jungler into the enemy jungle. You don't babysit someone you know won't repay the team for the babysitting.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
If they play mid a lot, then a ranged harass support is good and leona is probably bad. If they play top/jungle alot suggest Leona or Alistar. If they don't play anything and want to stay behind you suggest Janna.
If they're your ADC(and farming bad) just let them farm poorly. Farming poorly is OK so long as they're out farming the other guy. If you're doing your job well they will be, or at least will be in a position where they're not losing the lane*. Everyone misses CS, what matters is more being ahead of the enemy(relative to late game scaling) rather than having a high raw number.
If they're your ADC and trying to duel when they can't ping back unless you're going to go in. Then ping forward right before you go.
*Also its good to know what "losing the lane" means. E.G. If you're cait, and you're even in CS, you're losing the lane.
Yes you can, but it is incredibly difficult.
Here are some pointers.
If you are an AD and have a bad support:
1. Buy a couple wards here and there. If your support isn't warding, unfortunately you have to. Make sure this doesn't eat into your budget too much, because it's precious. However, a few greens and you'll thank yourself (as opposed to your support)
2. Hang as FAR BACK AS POSSIBLE at all times. Even terrible supports feel vulnerable when they're way far up in lane and their friendly AD isn't even in dash range anymore. Hanging far back will make your support begrudgingly also hang somewhat far back, making both of you safer.
3. Try your best to punish your enemies for capitalizing on your support's mistakes. Your sona overextended, eh? If leona drops her CC on her, then punish MF with everything you've got without dying.
Not much time to provide the other side of things, but there are some ideas.
Pentakills left and right with my mantra'd shield.
FFXIV: Tchel Fay
Nintendo ID: Tortalius
Steam: Tortalius
Stream: twitch.tv/tortalius
I am sad because this Fiora not only shares my first name, but also built the worst shit on one of my favorite champions.
I would like to take a moment to point out that I literally told you exactly this in the last thread a week or 2 ago
On that note, I've been on a solo queue walk about in order to suck less. Apparently people no longer ban Malphite regularly. TO THEIR DETRIMENT!