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[Legend of Zelda] This thread lost all its hearts and had no fairy left - find the new one

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Ehhh, I like it how it is. "increase the damage they do based on your heart containers" means collecting hearts is basically useless.

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  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    Dirty wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    Also, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right @Dirty. The dungeons aren't any more or less difficult than the one before it because they can't know how many hearts you have. They only range in difficulty because certain enemies are harder to kill for various reasons.
    It would be cool if combat difficulty scaled with your progress. Just have the number and strength of enemies based on how many levels you've cleared.
    Eh, I don't like that style of progression though since it means you never feel stronger. If enemies get stronger just like you, killing harder ones stays tedious. I like being a murder machine when I'm nearly finished with a game.

    The easy solution is to increase the damage they do based on your heart containers, but don't increase their HP. Killing them doesn't need to be tedious, but if you're not paying attention and get hit, you'll pay for it. But I guess the blue/red mail kinda fucks that up...

    Also, raise your hand if you got wasted the first time you tried to kill a Lionel, only to find out their fire breath does like 7 hearts of damage.

    If enemies deal more damage the more health you have, it negates the whole point of increasing your max health. I think it should be tied to how many levels you've cleared. Basically, each room where enemies spawn would be automatically adjusted for every 2-3 levels you cleared. For example, let's say you have a room where you're attacked by 2 Bokoblins. In the harder version, you're attacked by 3, and they're the slightly tougher palette-swapped version. In the hardest version, the third Bokoblin is a Moblin. Still have "weak" enemies pop up later in the game so you feel powerful with your upgrades.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I haven't died in a Zelda title in years. My coworker started playing the game before me, and was made this comment:

    "Yeah, the item shop is neat. You can buy whatever you want and then tackle the dungeons in any order. Still the old, die several times getting to the boss, die against the boss, and then beat him though."

    So I guess Zelda games are difficult enough for the non-Zelda gamer. :)

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying it until everyone says it

    We are not now nor can we be the people that these games are balanced around in terms of combat difficulty

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying it until everyone says it

    We are not now nor can we be the people that these games are balanced around in terms of combat difficulty

    It's true. Zelda fans looking for something more combat oriented can always turn here.

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  • KorKor Known to detonate from time to time Registered User regular
    Dirty wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    Dirty wrote: »
    shadowane wrote: »
    Also, I hadn't thought about it, but you're right @Dirty. The dungeons aren't any more or less difficult than the one before it because they can't know how many hearts you have. They only range in difficulty because certain enemies are harder to kill for various reasons.
    It would be cool if combat difficulty scaled with your progress. Just have the number and strength of enemies based on how many levels you've cleared.
    Eh, I don't like that style of progression though since it means you never feel stronger. If enemies get stronger just like you, killing harder ones stays tedious. I like being a murder machine when I'm nearly finished with a game.

    The easy solution is to increase the damage they do based on your heart containers, but don't increase their HP. Killing them doesn't need to be tedious, but if you're not paying attention and get hit, you'll pay for it. But I guess the blue/red mail kinda fucks that up...

    Also, raise your hand if you got wasted the first time you tried to kill a Lionel, only to find out their fire breath does like 7 hearts of damage.

    If enemies deal more damage the more health you have, it negates the whole point of increasing your max health. I think it should be tied to how many levels you've cleared. Basically, each room where enemies spawn would be automatically adjusted for every 2-3 levels you cleared. For example, let's say you have a room where you're attacked by 2 Bokoblins. In the harder version, you're attacked by 3, and they're the slightly tougher palette-swapped version. In the hardest version, the third Bokoblin is a Moblin. Still have "weak" enemies pop up later in the game so you feel powerful with your upgrades.

    I still think this can be refined.

    Dungeon selection was nice, but as everyone has said, there is a plateau as soon as you get to Lorule the answer here is very obvious. Lorule was to open. Lets think about bottle necks in the game that you are forced to proceed through.

    Game Start
    First dungeon
    Hyrule Castle
    Final Dungeon

    This means we can set the "difficulty" between each of these 3 areas of the game. So what do we do? Easy, split up the area between Hyrule Castle and the Final Dungeon. So rather than having full access to 7 dungeons, just keep the 3 theme going.

    Basically this: 3 dungeons -> Story Dungeon -> 3 Dungeons -> Story Dungeon -> 3 Dungeons -> Final dungeon

    Putting a bottle neck on the story dungeons, so that you cannot proceed past would solve the scaling problem.

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    Kor wrote: »
    Putting a bottle neck on the story dungeons, so that you cannot proceed past would solve the scaling problem.

    This assumes that we're tuning the game for combat. I'd argue that it was instead tuned at a flat, consistent level of puzzles.

  • KorKor Known to detonate from time to time Registered User regular
    Houn wrote: »
    Kor wrote: »
    Putting a bottle neck on the story dungeons, so that you cannot proceed past would solve the scaling problem.

    This assumes that we're tuning the game for combat. I'd argue that it was instead tuned at a flat, consistent level of puzzles.

    Why can't we have both?

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    Kor wrote: »
    Houn wrote: »
    Kor wrote: »
    Putting a bottle neck on the story dungeons, so that you cannot proceed past would solve the scaling problem.

    This assumes that we're tuning the game for combat. I'd argue that it was instead tuned at a flat, consistent level of puzzles.

    Why can't we have both?

    You can. Just not in ALBW, because that wasn't Nintendo's goal.

  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    I was focusing on the combat, because that's the easiest thing to scale without creating a lot of extra work. Scaling the difficulty of puzzles requires you to re-work, or even completely re-design the puzzles. The only way you can have puzzles that increase in difficulty as you progress without creating a ton of extra work is to return to a linear level order.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I liked the puzzles :(

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  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Didn't say anything was wrong with them.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Part 3 of The Legend of Zelda: The Linda Chronicles continues:

    Yesterday, after a few weeks off from playing, Linda explored Windfall Island. Her quest was simple; find a sail to explore the oceans. She immediately started this journey by grabbing the first pig she saw and flung it into the ocean. After recovering from laughter, she proceeded to talk to everyone in town and explore all the homes.

    Her wallet was 60 rupees lighter after smashing some shiny pots owned by a rich man. She did manage to win the Battleship mini-game on only her second try, collecting the special treasure map prize in addition to the heart piece. After over an hour of wandering and talking, she finally released Tingle from his cell ("what? who hides a switch in the same room?!"), got the sail, and ended up on Dragon Roost Island. I prompted her to save after losing 1 of her 3 hearts while messing around with bomb flowers. At the rate she was going, Link wouldn't have survived long and there is no auto-save feature. :D

    Highlight moment: Encountering a Moblin on a floating raft and engaging it in combat. She locked on to it and started side hopping around it for a better attack angle. After one hop to many, Link casually hopped right into the ocean. While we laughed, the Moblin jumped in after her and never resurfaced causing more laughter. She looked at me and said, "All part of my plan."

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  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    This is the best part of the thread.

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  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    This is the best part of the thread.

    Although did Part 2 get lost? Or maybe take place during the Hangout period?

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  • LBD_NytetraynLBD_Nytetrayn TorontoRegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I haven't died in a Zelda title in years. My coworker started playing the game before me, and was made this comment:

    "Yeah, the item shop is neat. You can buy whatever you want and then tackle the dungeons in any order. Still the old, die several times getting to the boss, die against the boss, and then beat him though."

    So I guess Zelda games are difficult enough for the non-Zelda gamer. :)
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I've said this before and I'm going to keep saying it until everyone says it

    We are not now nor can we be the people that these games are balanced around in terms of combat difficulty

    Agreed. It's like when people say something like New Super Mario Bros. is too easy. Well, yeah, it's definitely easy to me... I've only spent the last 28 years playing the things, after all. I kind of know a thing or two about them.

    Same deal here.

    It's not "easy", per se; you're just good.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    And this is why Hero Mode is a good thing, and needs to be available from the beginning in each game going forward.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    This is the best part of the thread.

    Although did Part 2 get lost? Or maybe take place during the Hangout period?

    Repost of Part 2 just for you Vyolynce! Happy New Year!

    Time for The Legend of Zelda: The Linda Chronicles part 2!

    Today, our heroin conquered The Forsaken Fortress. Much sneaking around and running from rats was had. The little spear guys chased her into a terror fit. Her mastery of the controls is still in its early days, but she is getting better.

    Highlight moment: Running from an enemy only to find a wooden stick in a pot to fight with. She hoisted the weapon mightly before promptly flinging it off the building on accident. Like a graceful paper airplane, it landed all the way at the bottom of the level. Thankfully, the game designers put two sticks in the pot.

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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    100 Maiamai rescued, Master Sword fully upgraded, double stamina, all items bought and upgraded, and only one painting rescued.

    Time to hit the water temple.

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  • fRAWRstfRAWRst The Seas Call The Mad AnswerRegistered User regular
    You did half/75% of dungeons to get the upgrades and did not complete them?

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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    Something like that. And the water temple boss was a cinche with the spin attack upgrade.

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  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Just seems like a weird way to approach it. Why not just finish the level?

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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    Its how I played LttP too. For the most part. And I got hooked on finding all the Maiamai.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Was Skyward Sword hard because it was legitimately challenging, or was it because it took quite a bit to get used to the enhanced control scheme?

    Because I thought that was a pretty good game challenge wise. But for all I know, if you were to port the game to standard controls it may turn out to be just as easy as any other.

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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Was Skyward Sword hard because it was legitimately challenging, or was it because it took quite a bit to get used to the enhanced control scheme?

    Because I thought that was a pretty good game challenge wise. But for all I know, if you were to port the game to standard controls it may turn out to be just as easy as any other.

    There were definitely some parts that were legitimately hard (at least for me).
    God I sucked at the Silent Realm parts

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    As a person who had more or less perfect control in Skyward Sword, it was pretty objectively the hardest 3D Zelda in terms of combat and boss fights.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I thought it was legitimately challenging, and I scarcely had any conrtrol issues.

    That said, I had a much more difficult time with Hero Mode.

    Getting the Hylian Shield in Hero Mode was quite a thing.

  • Two Headed BoyTwo Headed Boy Registered User regular
    Ok guys, I need a little help. In ALBW, I can't figure out how to get to the third (water?) dungeon in the lower-right corner of the map. Any hints that can put me in the right direction?

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Ok guys, I need a little help. In ALBW, I can't figure out how to get to the third (water?) dungeon in the lower-right corner of the map. Any hints that can put me in the right direction?

    Assume you mean the House of Gales in Hyrule. There's a guy nearby who will mention an activity. If you played LttP, you'll know what to do. If not:
    Explore the northeast part of the map.

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  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Got ALBW for Christmas and I seem to be stuck. I've done
    3 of the dungeons and gotten three paintings. The Dark Palace, Turtle Rock, and the Water Dungeon are all done. I can't get to the Desert/Swamp place without beating one of the other three, but they all seem to have stumped me the same way. I've been to all three of the other dungeons and they seem to have dead-ended. It makes me feel like I've missed one of the out-of-dungeon items, maybe something that can hold down a button for me? And unfortunately, neither the Hint Ghosts nor the Fortune Teller have been very helpful in this regard.

    It is a curious thing that I found the water dungeon to be the easiest one so far. The stupid Dark Palace I went to first and it's the only death I've had so far, because I'd only found one bottle at the time and I had trouble with the boss.

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Got ALBW for Christmas and I seem to be stuck. I've done
    3 of the dungeons and gotten three paintings. The Dark Palace, Turtle Rock, and the Water Dungeon are all done. I can't get to the Desert/Swamp place without beating one of the other three, but they all seem to have stumped me the same way. I've been to all three of the other dungeons and they seem to have dead-ended. It makes me feel like I've missed one of the out-of-dungeon items, maybe something that can hold down a button for me? And unfortunately, neither the Hint Ghosts nor the Fortune Teller have been very helpful in this regard.

    It is a curious thing that I found the water dungeon to be the easiest one so far. The stupid Dark Palace I went to first and it's the only death I've had so far, because I'd only found one bottle at the time and I had trouble with the boss.
    You are not likely to be missing an out-of-dungeon item that would be impeding your progress. The only significant one I can think of off-hand is the Pegasus Boots.

    It's difficult to say what the problem is without knowing where you're getting stuck, but remember: when in doubt, stick to a wall

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  • TerrendosTerrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
    Okay, well so long as I'm not missing something obvious, I'll just keep plugging along.

  • Two Headed BoyTwo Headed Boy Registered User regular
    Ok guys, I need a little help. In ALBW, I can't figure out how to get to the third (water?) dungeon in the lower-right corner of the map. Any hints that can put me in the right direction?

    Assume you mean the House of Gales in Hyrule. There's a guy nearby who will mention an activity. If you played LttP, you'll know what to do. If not:
    Explore the northeast part of the map.

    Thank you, I'll check it out! I last played ALttP over 10 years ago, and I guess I don't remember as much as I thought I would.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    How many LttP players did the LbW dungeons in the old order?
    Terrendos wrote: »
    Got ALBW for Christmas and I seem to be stuck. I've done
    3 of the dungeons and gotten three paintings. The Dark Palace, Turtle Rock, and the Water Dungeon are all done. I can't get to the Desert/Swamp place without beating one of the other three, but they all seem to have stumped me the same way. I've been to all three of the other dungeons and they seem to have dead-ended. It makes me feel like I've missed one of the out-of-dungeon items, maybe something that can hold down a button for me? And unfortunately, neither the Hint Ghosts nor the Fortune Teller have been very helpful in this regard.

    It is a curious thing that I found the water dungeon to be the easiest one so far. The stupid Dark Palace I went to first and it's the only death I've had so far, because I'd only found one bottle at the time and I had trouble with the boss.
    The dungeon in the Lorule village is probably your best bet.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    I don't do the LttP dungeons in the suggested order (who does?) Anyone who does the Ice Palace without the Cane of Somaria is a sucker.
    Did Thief's Hideout, Skull Woods, Desert Palace, Water Dungeon, Palace of Darkness, Turtle Rock, Ice Tower

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  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    (Taking this out of spoilers for specificity.)
    Terrendos wrote: »
    It makes me feel like I've missed one of the out-of-dungeon items, maybe something that can hold down a button for me?

    You think you need something to hold down a button?

    Is this in the Forest dungeon, by any chance?

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I ended to do them in he numbered order.

    these days, if I were to replay it, I'd totally get the Cane of Somaria early, of course.

  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    Having the Cane of Somaria in the Ice Palace is the only thing I can remember where there's an advantage for going out of order in ALTTP. Though I know for many, playing out of order isn't really about getting an advantage. They do it because they can.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Dirty wrote: »
    Having the Cane of Somaria in the Ice Palace is the only thing I can remember where there's an advantage for going out of order in ALTTP. Though I know for many, playing out of order isn't really about getting an advantage. They do it because they can.

    I don't know about the cane, but doing the Thieves early gets you the lvl2 gloves, and access to the blacksmith sword upgrade. I usually do that as my second dungeon.

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  • DirtyDirty Registered User regular
    I guess I was being too vague. Having a stronger sword or better armor is clearly an advantage, but it's an incremental upgrade. It's a slightly better version on something you already have. Having that cane in that dungeon allows you to bypass a puzzle in a way that's not possible going in order. In the original LOZ, it's possible to get the Magical Key early, and you don't have to worry about finding or earning keys for the rest of the game.

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