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Giant Bomb Thread: Remembering Ryan Davis.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Hopefully, after the intel fiasco, Advertisers are less keen about doing anything these people ask.

    Intel still hasn't restored advertising to Gamasutra. They "apologized", but refused to return their ad buys.

    Yes, but now other advertisers are aware that "removing ads" isn't a viable method of stopping the complaints.

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    LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    When someone is complaining about something, it's implied that the solution is "stop doing the thing I'm complaining about".

    LockedOnTarget on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Hopefully, after the intel fiasco, Advertisers are less keen about doing anything these people ask.

    Intel still hasn't restored advertising to Gamasutra. They "apologized", but refused to return their ad buys.

    Yes, but now other advertisers are aware that "removing ads" isn't a viable method of stopping the complaints.

    In fact by all accounts, it appears that Intel did far more damage giving into GG than they did by actually giving into their demands. This is something that other advertisers will notice much more than anything else. GG has basically ended their chances of getting anyone else to cave into them, despite almost another month of constantly trying to organise email bombs and similar.

    Everyone has caught onto the fact they're the loud, angry minority of hateful people in the gaming community and are ignoring them appropriately. Nobody wants to be another intel and be seen to be associating with them now.

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    Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    Basically

    If you are confused about how journalists report on gamergate

    Read the first comment on this (its from a writer of the boston globe)

    http://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2h36ue/another_poorlyresearched_hitpiece_from_the_boston/cldrqeu

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    minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    I'm glad he points out that "No True Scotsman" has basically been the one and only tactic GGers have used to defend their bullshit from critique. It's gotten so, so very old at this point. It's like arguing with someone who yells "JUST KIDDING!" after every deplorable statement.

    minor incident on
    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
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    LowlanderLowlander Registered User regular
    Oh man, that's a pretty good read. I got a belly laugh out of this tidbit:
    I’m not just making this up based on the occasional Tweet or forum post. After my HuffPost Live appearance, I was invited into a Google Hangout about GamerGate by Troy Rubert, aka @GhostLev[3] . I accepted, and when I got in just about everyone who spoke openly talked about how mad they were that progressive politics and feminism were impinging on gaming, which they saw as an area they had enjoyed, free of politics, forever. They were extremely open about this. A day or so later, another GamerGater, @Smilomaniac[4] , asked me to read a blog post he’d written[5] about his involvement in the movement in which he explicitly IDs as anti-feminist, and says that while some people claim otherwise, he thinks GG is an anti-feminist movement.

    What amuses me is the assertion that video games has been a haven free from politics and controversy, and that these feminists are coming in and ruining everything. Video games have been nothing but the butt of politics since as long as the medium has existed. Jack Thompson, Hot Coffee, lesbian aliens in Mass Effect, lazy kids who spend all day in front of their TV playing video games.

    I don't think there has ever been a time where politics was less involved in video games.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    No but you see, before Leland Yee and Jack Thompson were the boogeymen "gamers" could rally against. Now the problematic people are those very same "gamers" who can't do some fucking introspection about a hobby they enjoy not catering exclusively to them for once in their lives.

    Vinny was right.

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    Beef AvengerBeef Avenger Registered User regular
    that Jesse Singal duder seems alllllright

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Lowlander wrote: »
    The part that I find odd is that they even bothered mentioning gamersgate this late into the game. Hasn't it already pretty much been forgotten about? I know some people believe that being silent on the issue is somehow bad, but what about the old internet adage about not feeding the trolls? The only thing that debating the issue reasonably does is lend credence to the claims of the GGers to people who stumble into the mess without info on the backstory. It's like arguing creationism vs. evolution, everyone loses. You can't reason away people who believe in voodoo magic.

    Ignoring the bully is one of those things that may sound great in elementary school, but it doesn't work in the real world.

    Making a spectacle works best for the person with the least to lose

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    TheySlashThemTheySlashThem Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Lowlander wrote: »
    The part that I find odd is that they even bothered mentioning gamersgate this late into the game. Hasn't it already pretty much been forgotten about? I know some people believe that being silent on the issue is somehow bad, but what about the old internet adage about not feeding the trolls? The only thing that debating the issue reasonably does is lend credence to the claims of the GGers to people who stumble into the mess without info on the backstory. It's like arguing creationism vs. evolution, everyone loses. You can't reason away people who believe in voodoo magic.

    Ignoring the bully is one of those things that may sound great in elementary school, but it doesn't work in the real world.

    hell, it didn't even work in elementary school

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    LowlanderLowlander Registered User regular
    The fundamental difference between "ignoring the bully" and not giving these nutjobs a venue to vent their spleen, is the fact that arguing with them can be seen as legitimizing their "concerns."

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    But you don't have to argue with them to address their actions.

    Jeff's letter isn't an argument, it's a condemnation.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

    Well if someone came up to you in the street and told you the earth was flat what would you tell them

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    LowlanderLowlander Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Opty wrote: »
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

    You only lose when you argue against willful ignorance. An outsider will see a public argument between two sides and their initial reaction is that both sides must have some merit. All of the information is out there, there is no way that you can tell a flat earther something that they haven't been told before. Do you think you're going to talk about the ISS orbiting the Earth, and they're going to suddenly realize that they've been wrong all along? Do you think that you're going to explain the theory of gravitation, and how it can only support a spherical Earth? These are arguments that they've heard before. Any time you try to reason with them, they're just going to tell you it's part of some conspiracy.

    You're better off ignoring them, or you risk converting people to their beliefs because of a weak knowledge of science amongst the general populace.

    Lowlander on
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    bssbss Brostoyevsky Madison, WIRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

    Well if someone came up to you in the street and told you the earth was flat what would you tell them

    I'd probably defensively laugh and keep walking, personally. I do definitely feel that there is a time for just ignoring the willfully ignorant, but to the thread's greater point they do have to be properly addressed first (at large) before their yelling at clouds can be safely ignored.

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    SwissLionSwissLion We are beside ourselves! Registered User regular
    Seeing as there's only a few more pages to discuss this, everyone should read this:

    https://storify.com/Quinnae_Moon/there-is-no-virtue-without-terror

    It's a pretty perfect summation of the last two months to my mind.

    I have just stopped being able to understand how any human being can read this and still support Gamergate. And I know that they must exist.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Cognitive dissonance, willful ignorance, lack of empathy and some narcissism.

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The problem is that they don't stand for anything specific. OWS didn't stand for anything specific, the Tea Party didn't stand for anything specific, and that's because people have learned, with a broad yet shallow culture of communication, that if you just put out a broadly appealing generic message you'll get membership views like and subscribe, comment, please donate to my webchannel.

    I am reminded of the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate, but you know, it's not really like that. Creationism isn't grounded in science, but it is grounded in something. The people in this movement can shift around their ideology all they like because the purpose of the movement is to use a belief as a means of getting attention, not the other way round as legitimate movements are. If you think of it that way, the strategy makes a bunch more sense. How much of a nightmare is it to become the new moral standard if you put dead animals in people's mailboxes? How much of a boon if you want to become tomorrow's headline? Why can you find them responding to every little media outlet that mentions them with no regard for triage, even to the point where they are likely to post on this forum, of all places? Is this a signal of a thriving and powerful movement or the premature hatching of a parasite ridden half-digested pupae?

    This hashtag phenomenon has become a big thing because we treated it like a big thing, much like we treated Zoe Quinn's personal life instead of maturely recognizing it was not news. Additionally, we've fallen into the trap of assuming guilt by association, fulfilling the diversionary purpose of the smokescreen "journalism integrity" tactic. There are problems with games journalism. People who play video games are persecuted and ostracized. You don't have to argue against those things to dissociate yourself from people who stalk and terrorize other people. Well, you have to now, because people already have self-defended themselves into sides, but in the future, if a person tries to throw up a contentious issue to explain their actions, if it doesn't actually do that, then don't immediately start arguing against the second thing. If you have a beef with that, then by all means argue, but do it with people who sincerely believe in the topic and aren't using it to engineer their nefarious schemes and just ignore that aside with the first group. If you conflate people drawn in by legitimate controversy you will be giving them membership.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    Blackbird SR-71CBlackbird SR-71C Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

    Doesn't work though when said person will "refute" all your arguments and evidence with claims that all of it is made up and that you don't have "real" proof. I'm not just saying this for the sake of it, I've legitimately met persons who believe that, for example, sicknesses do not exist or at least aren't explainable by any sort of medicinal science, or that Ebola is just made up.

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    OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    It's also another fallacy. If someone says the earth is flat, you argue with them that no it isn't and here's all this evidence proving it isn't you're not legitimizing the idea that the earth is flat.

    Doesn't work though when said person will "refute" all your arguments and evidence with claims that all of it is made up and that you don't have "real" proof. I'm not just saying this for the sake of it, I've legitimately met persons who believe that, for example, sicknesses do not exist or at least aren't explainable by any sort of medicinal science, or that Ebola is just made up.

    And then those people go off to be anti-vaxxers and convince other idiots to not innoculate against diseases while you sit back and ignore them. In today's social media world, ignoring people just lets them gather strength unopposed and construct narratives that exist without facts. You have to absolutely stand up to stop them before they get to the point they're actively causing harm.

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    Zoku GojiraZoku Gojira Monster IslandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    "Not actively taking proactive measures" and "actively causing harm" are not the same thing. That said, the anti-vaccination people are morons following one charlatan of a disgraced doctor (and confirmed lying sack of shit) in slavish devotion to his (megalo?)mania. The right thing to do is combat their misinformation with useful information.

    While I know that sometimes it seems that the public looks for any reason to panic and lash out in unproductive ways, I think there's also an argument to be made that people seek out leadership in times of crisis, and will tend to look up to the calm, collected individuals who are offering solutions, rather than just more paranoid reasons to freak out.

    I find it heartening that, despite the best efforts of networks on the Idiot Box to persuade people that they could be killed at literally any time by Ebola, cooler heads continue to prevail among the American public, who generally seem to support further efforts to help contain this disease in areas where it really is a major problem. Rather than, you know, closing off international travel and allowing a dangerous filovirus to continue rampaging through vulnerable communities until it replicates enough times for a chance to actually throw off an airborne strain or something similar. Panic helps the pathogen. Fortunately, the American public at large isn't panicking, outside of (apparently) some individuals on my Facebook feed who live very sheltered lives. Unfortunately, TV news and other old-media dinosaurs appear to be stepping up their efforts to cause mass hysteria, even as incubation periods for "at-risk" individuals pass without incident.

    Is... is this the Giant Bomb thread? In G&T? This is getting kinda D&D. So... how about that Destiny raid, huh? I know everyone's all "Team Brad wooooo!" but I gotta give props to Jeff. He put in the time and effort and research, and went into this clearly prepared for a slog through the trenches if that's what it took, and it did. Talk about devotion to your craft. Whatever anyone thinks about Destiny, this was surely the most difficult game of the year (thus far) to review in any coherent fashion. Particularly if one accepts, for the sake of argument, Bungie's assertion that the game "begins" with all the Light-level grinding. I like it, and still play it. But I see the problems with it, and holy shit do I ever respect Jeff for toughing it out. Gonna have to put a rad mailbag together soon.

    Zoku Gojira on
    "Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." - Bertolt Brecht
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    GrundlestiltskinGrundlestiltskin Behind you!Registered User regular

    Is... is this the Giant Bomb thread? In G&T? This is getting kinda D&D. So... how about that Destiny raid, huh? I know everyone's all "Team Brad wooooo!" but I gotta give props to Jeff. He put in the time and effort and research, and went into this clearly prepared for a slog through the trenches if that's what it took, and it did. Talk about devotion to your craft. Whatever anyone thinks about Destiny, this was surely the most difficult game of the year (thus far) to review in any coherent fashion. Particularly if one accepts, for the sake of argument, Bungie's assertion that the game "begins" with all the Light-level grinding. I like it, and still play it. But I see the problems with it, and holy shit do I ever respect Jeff for toughing it out. Gonna have to put a rad mailbag together soon.

    I'd agree with this. I was a bit surprised - for as much as Jeff genuinely seems to dislike Destiny, he was certainly committed to figuring out with the Big Deal was, well beyond the entertainment life of the game to him.

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    a nu starta nu start Registered User regular
    I swear Dan is stuck in a 13 Going On 30. Watching him play with the pogs, he's like a giant man-child.

    Number One Tricky
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    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    My mother would (and has said) the same thing about me and video games.

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    bssbss Brostoyevsky Madison, WIRegistered User regular
    I finally watched the Breaking Brad and was really hyped to maybe finally actually play the Destiny disc I own. During part one. And then the stealth happened and I said "nope, my Vita games for me".

    The actiony parts of that game do seem so hype though, even when Brad was getting a bit punchy from all the dying in the final room it still looked fun. Shame about the meaningless junk parts though.

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    RandomHajileRandomHajile Not actually a Snatcher The New KremlinRegistered User regular
    bss wrote: »
    I finally watched the Breaking Brad and was really hyped to maybe finally actually play the Destiny disc I own. During part one. And then the stealth happened and I said "nope, my Vita games for me".

    The actiony parts of that game do seem so hype though, even when Brad was getting a bit punchy from all the dying in the final room it still looked fun. Shame about the meaningless junk parts though.
    The part they played is pretty much the last thing to accomplish in the game. To get to that point, it is all (grinding) action content for 20-30 hours, where there are no stealthy type mechanics at all. It is a really fun game with some flaws. I'm not generally a console shooter guy, and I have played around 70 hours without even touching the raid. I'm about to burn out on it at this point, but have enjoyed it up to here.

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    Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular

    Is... is this the Giant Bomb thread? In G&T? This is getting kinda D&D. So... how about that Destiny raid, huh? I know everyone's all "Team Brad wooooo!" but I gotta give props to Jeff. He put in the time and effort and research, and went into this clearly prepared for a slog through the trenches if that's what it took, and it did. Talk about devotion to your craft. Whatever anyone thinks about Destiny, this was surely the most difficult game of the year (thus far) to review in any coherent fashion. Particularly if one accepts, for the sake of argument, Bungie's assertion that the game "begins" with all the Light-level grinding. I like it, and still play it. But I see the problems with it, and holy shit do I ever respect Jeff for toughing it out. Gonna have to put a rad mailbag together soon.

    I'd agree with this. I was a bit surprised - for as much as Jeff genuinely seems to dislike Destiny, he was certainly committed to figuring out with the Big Deal was, well beyond the entertainment life of the game to him.

    I really felt like Jeff was hoping for something amazing to happen with Destiny. Like, the game can't be this bad, there /has/ to be something else. And when there kept not being anything else he had to see all the content just to be 100% sure.

    So now, that done, he can crush brad in most disappointing and top 10.

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    LowlanderLowlander Registered User regular
    Knight_ wrote: »

    Is... is this the Giant Bomb thread? In G&T? This is getting kinda D&D. So... how about that Destiny raid, huh? I know everyone's all "Team Brad wooooo!" but I gotta give props to Jeff. He put in the time and effort and research, and went into this clearly prepared for a slog through the trenches if that's what it took, and it did. Talk about devotion to your craft. Whatever anyone thinks about Destiny, this was surely the most difficult game of the year (thus far) to review in any coherent fashion. Particularly if one accepts, for the sake of argument, Bungie's assertion that the game "begins" with all the Light-level grinding. I like it, and still play it. But I see the problems with it, and holy shit do I ever respect Jeff for toughing it out. Gonna have to put a rad mailbag together soon.

    I'd agree with this. I was a bit surprised - for as much as Jeff genuinely seems to dislike Destiny, he was certainly committed to figuring out with the Big Deal was, well beyond the entertainment life of the game to him.

    I really felt like Jeff was hoping for something amazing to happen with Destiny. Like, the game can't be this bad, there /has/ to be something else. And when there kept not being anything else he had to see all the content just to be 100% sure.

    So now, that done, he can crush brad in most disappointing and top 10.

    I have a hard time seeing Brad pushing for this in the top 10. He's been completely fair when it comes to the criticisms of this game. This isn't a DOTA2 situation where he's going to champion this game because the other guys just don't get it.

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    Beef AvengerBeef Avenger Registered User regular
    Brad will push for it, if only so that he can say his bit on why he's enjoyed it. He'll probably concede without too much bitterness afterwards though and settle for having it in his own list

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Dan turned 30 this year.

    It'll be interesting to see if his body decides "nope, I had enough of this shit" in the next five years or so.

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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    My body decided that at like 19.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Mine hit me about 31.

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    admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Still waiting for it at almost-28.

    Though I tend to eat quite well minus a fondness for carbs, but I also weigh like 140 at 6'.

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    BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    Will this be the first time Most disappointing is also a very successful seller?

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    SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I'm 37 and it hasn't hit me yet, but I've also gotten a little better with eating over the last 10 years or so. I mainly attribute this to my wife, who actually knows how to cook and has managed to teach me a thing or two about food that's not processed crap.

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    BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    Dan defies all logic. Drinks like a madman, eats the worst things imaginable, yet looks to be pretty healthy overall.

    I'd really love to see the results of a health screening. Cholesterol and such. Maybe there's something to the nanomachines?

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    PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
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    GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII They wanna get my gold on the ceilingRegistered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Dan turned 30 this year.

    It'll be interesting to see if his body decides "nope, I had enough of this shit" in the next five years or so.

    He's in for a rough ride. It catches up to all of us eventually. I'm 31 and have noticed a significant change in the past couple years. I've dramatically reduced my caloric intake to compensate, and it's helped, but I can tell I am reaching the point where regular exercise will be a must.

    It actually sounds like Dan is pretty active (he talks about running and yoga a lot), which I'd bet has allowed him to eat and drink the way he does. But the body is basically a decaying prison after 25, the rate just varies between persons.

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Beltaine wrote: »
    Will this be the first time Most disappointing is also a very successful seller?

    Nah

    Assassin's Creed III was the best-selling game in the franchise to that point

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    lionheart_mlionheart_m Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Yeah, when I hit 30 basically I payed for a lifetime of inactivity. It does get to you. And only doing exercise won't be enough. Trust me, I thought I could run 5k every 2 days and still eat a Pizza by myself. How wrong I was...and my knees.

    EDIT: Also, I gotta thank Jeff. I found myself wondering if I should grind it up to try the Raid. Seems like I saved myself 2 weeks since we share some opinions regarding Destiny's endgame.

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