I'm trying to figure out exactly how tomorrow night will work in order.
1) kills happen in the order specified on like page 19
2) people take their elected positions
Does this mean if we protect thor got but elendil gets killed, we lose the last KGB even though thorgot got the position? Technically the kgb needs to protect elendil I believe. Hmm.
This is right. The KGB will have to protect Elendil to protect himself.
EDIT: That's not just speculation, I PMed visiblehowl about it earlier because I was wondering the same thing.
FunkyWaltDogg on
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
That would be stupid, Ardor. The KGB would have no way to protect the newly elected GS if that were the case. I will PM RBB right now to ask him, but I suspect that they have to protect the incoming secretary, not the outgoing one.
So assume for the moment that I can be elected and protected without harming the KGB.
That would be stupid, Ardor. The KGB would have no way to protect the newly elected GS if that were the case. I will PM RBB right now to ask him, but I suspect that they have to protect the incoming secretary, not the outgoing one.
So assume for the moment that I can be elected and protected without harming the KGB.
I know you must be tired of these by now, but I've got a couple more things I'd like clarified if possible.
1) If there is a change in General Secretary, which one must the KGB protect to avoid execution by incompetence: the outgoing GS or the incoming one? If they have to cover the outgoing secretary, which is what the "kills before election" order tends to suggest, then it seems like the capitalists can guarantee a kill against either the GS or the KGB by doing something obvious that I've edited out just in case they're dumb.
2) If the GS-elect is executed, does the person with the next most votes get the position, or is it vacant? I'm guessing the former.
1. They have to cover the outgoing secretary.
2. If the person who wins the election is killed for any reason, the next-highest vote-getter will become General Secretary.
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
That would be stupid, Ardor. The KGB would have no way to protect the newly elected GS if that were the case. I will PM RBB right now to ask him, but I suspect that they have to protect the incoming secretary, not the outgoing one.
So assume for the moment that I can be elected and protected without harming the KGB.
I know you must be tired of these by now, but I've got a couple more things I'd like clarified if possible.
1) If there is a change in General Secretary, which one must the KGB protect to avoid execution by incompetence: the outgoing GS or the incoming one? If they have to cover the outgoing secretary, which is what the "kills before election" order tends to suggest, then it seems like the capitalists can guarantee a kill against either the GS or the KGB by doing something obvious that I've edited out just in case they're dumb.
2) If the GS-elect is executed, does the person with the next most votes get the position, or is it vacant? I'm guessing the former.
1. They have to cover the outgoing secretary.
2. If the person who wins the election is killed for any reason, the next-highest vote-getter will become General Secretary.
That would be stupid, Ardor. The KGB would have no way to protect the newly elected GS if that were the case. I will PM RBB right now to ask him, but I suspect that they have to protect the incoming secretary, not the outgoing one.
So assume for the moment that I can be elected and protected without harming the KGB.
I know you must be tired of these by now, but I've got a couple more things I'd like clarified if possible.
1) If there is a change in General Secretary, which one must the KGB protect to avoid execution by incompetence: the outgoing GS or the incoming one? If they have to cover the outgoing secretary, which is what the "kills before election" order tends to suggest, then it seems like the capitalists can guarantee a kill against either the GS or the KGB by doing stuff.
2) If the GS-elect is executed, does the person with the next most votes get the position, or is it vacant? I'm guessing the former.
1. They have to cover the outgoing secretary.
2. If the person who wins the election is killed for any reason, the next-highest vote-getter will become General Secretary.
That's what I figured, since kills happen before election results.
So each GS takes a risk in being elected then, that's fair.
So our current plans are to seer elendil right? Do we want to keep thorgot on the politburo for the next 3 days? Do we want him to ascend to GS or keep him off both and possibly take the GS seat in the future?
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
No, and there was no point in seering me, you guys should have seered Elendil.
Why didn't you tell us that rule, FWD? That would have been very useful to know before I asked people to seer me instead.
So our current plans are to seer elendil right? Do we want to keep thorgot on the politburo for the next 3 days? Do we want him to ascend to GS or keep him off both and possibly take the GS seat in the future?
Yeah, we should seer Elendil. If we want to continue telling the soviets how to vote, I'd suggest we put thorgot in first place and Elendil in second.
No, and there was no point in seering me, you guys should have seered Elendil.
Why didn't you tell us that rule, FWD? That would have been very useful to know before I asked people to seer me instead.
You didn't ask me to seer you to prove your innocence, remember? I picked your name myself because I thought you might be a rebel.
EDIT: I didn't share it because 1) I assumed visiblehowl would post it to the main thread like he did the other clarifications questions he was PM'd and 2) if by some chance he didn't, I thought that everyone would assume, as I did, that it was a stupid rule, that it wouldn't work that way, and that the GS-elect would be safe. If the rebels thought he was safe, then he would be safe.
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
What would that do but guarantee that I die tonight?
I have a better suggestion. On the off chance that there are no rebels on the politiburo, keep me on the politiburo until day 6. I can then be elected.
Though I think Eri should give me the names of some of the people in the network, in case she dies. I am going to PM her asking for some names.
Let us know if she balks. There's absolutely no reason for her not to tell you.
I believe the rules stated she is allowed the results of the night's seering then nothing after that in this thread. Therefore, she probably knows the results already.
Though I think Eri should give me the names of some of the people in the network, in case she dies. I am going to PM her asking for some names.
Let us know if she balks. There's absolutely no reason for her not to tell you.
I believe the rules stated she is allowed the results of the night's seering then nothing after that in this thread. Therefore, she probably knows the results already.
So... are we abandoning our plan of seering the politburo?
I should pay more attention and not let myself get sidetracked like that. I take back seering precisionk and/or Elendil. We still aren't sure that DA is a spy, and even if he is, there could definitely be more than one here. And they could be the ones that managed to get in here because of their celebrity status.
I think there is a strong case to seer ElJeffe:
- All of his rules confusion
- His continued insistence that will let Lady Eri die a day early
- Him (and Ardor) suddenly shifting focus away from seering the politburo
Wait, I have a question for RBB: Next round, after we seer someone, there is a chance that some of us won't be returning to the politburo. Will the original politburo find out the results of the seering, or will the newly elected politburo be given the results?
The original politburo will receive the results of the seering.
Does that mean the new politburo gets a new thread or something?
Ugh...No sorry, I forgot the way we had it said up.
It gets reported in this thread. All new Politburo members can read the entire thread. It's like having "minutes" from meetings or whatever.
Though I think Eri should give me the names of some of the people in the network, in case she dies. I am going to PM her asking for some names.
Let us know if she balks. There's absolutely no reason for her not to tell you.
I believe the rules stated she is allowed the results of the night's seering then nothing after that in this thread. Therefore, she probably knows the results already.
Yes. Isn't that basically what I said?
Probably, I apologize for missing it if that's the case.
Not fun so much. Eri wanted to use me as bait to catch the sympathizer. I only got one nibble but it was somebody who was basically telling Eri all that he was doing. I do not know if she planned that or they were just trying to be a helpful villager. So no results on that front sadly.
I think the seering thing is a fair assumption but I didn't see that in the post you quoted. I feel mildly bad for RBB as we all look for cracks in his rules.
I'm sorry if I fucked up any plans for the vote; when I saw the GS without explanation veto the staking of a "confirmed" spy before switching kill votes, the good possibilites were not the ones to come to mind.
Honestly, we need to know how things work in order to know what plans will even have a chance of working though.
They've been very helpful though, so that's a good sign.
I think we need to look for people like Hakk for our next targets, people who do not want to be noticed by their voting records, not necessarily their posting habits. We've got some time yet, but we also have one more question to work with.
Do we aim to keep our politburo stacked with the same people as before? Personally, I'd rather give someone else a shot and they can have my position, just to have some fun with it. I think adding in a little new blood could help us discern potential rebels. I think replacing the whole cabinet isn't a good idea though.
For seering, we may as well check elendil. Now that I think about it, obtaining the GS seat as an unknown while the council holds a seering ability on majority vote, isn't the brightest thing to do for a rebel.
I'm sorry if I fucked up any plans for the vote; when I saw the GS without explanation veto the staking of a "confirmed" spy before switching kill votes, the good possibilites were not the ones to come to mind.
The specials might've known of the plans, but we did not. It's a fair play though since she's sticking with the people she truly believes to be innocents. I would've done the same.
At this point, we know 2 specials because they are dead and we can assume DA and Lady Eri are the vote manipulators, right?
We don't know the others, but if the network did get infiltrated, then we can assume we won't have much of a network left in a few days.
As for voting someone for death, I think it best we have the village decide that one for now. I'll be piping for people with lower post counts and have only followed established bandwagons or 'safe' votes, like Lady Eri for GS for example.
Ugh...No sorry, I forgot the way we had it said up.
It gets reported in this thread. All new Politburo members can read the entire thread. It's like having "minutes" from meetings or whatever.
So yeah, they BOTH find out.
Man, maybe I need to go back to sleep...
So to clarify, when the result is published, we can read the thread long enough to find out the result of the seering, and then we should vacate, right?
Right. Either RBB or I will make a post in this thread which says "Stop! You cannot read any further unless you are on the new Politburo!" The seer results post will occur before this post.
For the record, I did not and still do not know any members of the network. They have a means of contacting and verifying themselves to me.
To prove my ability would require another day of vote manipulation and I think patience is wearing thin for that sort of thing. Today is also a horrible day to do it, with the buro elections and my own schedule.
For the record, I did not and still do not know any members of the network. They have a means of contacting and verifying themselves to me.
To prove my ability would require another day of vote manipulation and I think patience is wearing thin for that sort of thing. Today is also a horrible day to do it, with the buro elections and my own schedule.
Edit: Much appreciated FWD.
I'm willing to take your word for it at this point, since Eri didn't kill you but did kill another spy.
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Alright, we should definitely seer Elendil tonight.
In terms of killing, I have no idea.
In terms of elections, Elendil should obviously be elected to GS, and I hope to be reelected to the politiburo.
Okay, to preface this post I'm relatively fucked up right now so I may be missing some subtleties, but:
a) We should seer Elendil. Right now the KGB has to protect him. We should elect him next turn and seer him. Hopefully he's innocent.
b) Lady Eri should definitely tell thorgot everything she knows. He is a confirmed innocent, and she is most likely going to die next turn.
c) We shouldn't reveal thorgot as an innocent. I'm pretty sure there is a capitalist on this politburo. If thorgot is killed next turn I think it will prove one of us is a capitalist, and if he isn't, I think it might go a long way towards vindicating us (but I'm not completely sure about that either, because a capitalist on the council might realize that not killing thorgot will make everyone on the politburo less suspicious, and they might think that that is more advantageous than preventing one more person from joining the council.)
That would be stupid, Ardor. The KGB would have no way to protect the newly elected GS if that were the case.
Kills happen before the election. Keep in mind, in narration time, those don't necessarily happen one right after the other. In realtime the kills could come a couple weeks before the elections. So the KGB should be forced to guard the person who is GS when the kills occur, not for some possible future GS. Plus, if the GS-elect is killed, the next highest vote-getter is elected, so the KGB doesn't really care if Random Candidate #1 dies.
Sorry that the rules don't work exactly the way you wish they would.
Just so you guys know, Lady Eri is the reason I'm alive tonight and Hakkekage is dead.
I really wish we could guard both Lady Eri and Elendil .
I'm unconvinced that Hakkekage was anything other than blind luck. What, did Eri analyze the complete lack of evidence surrounding Hakke and use her Jedi mind powers to figure it out? Assuming Eri was even responsible for that death, it was luck. Further, I suspect it's the sort of shit that she pulled with DA that resulted in two specials dying. She seems to favor overly complicated schemes, and I think she got in touch with the wrong person. Bam, two dead specials.
Anyway, thoughts before I'm out for the day:
- Definitely give thorgot all info. If she balks, it's not necessarily an ill omen, she's just not keen on giving up power.
- Definitely seer Elendil, and keep him as GS for his full term. Trying to sneak in thorgot is too likely to result in nothing but dead thorgot and non-GS Elendil. We have Elendil in place, and if we confirm him, that's a very good thing.
- Keep thorgot's seering secret. Nothing has actually happened yet that would imply that the rebels are in the Politburo, and the general public gains nothing from knowing that thorgot's innocent. We can reveal that we confirmed someone and that the network is in good hands, and leave it at that.
- Whoever takes over network responsibilities should play things closely.
Before I leave, I'm sending in a seer order for Elendil. If you guys come up with an alternate plan, that's cool. If this is the last I have to play around in the Politburo, then it's been fun working with you guys.
ElJeffe on
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I have about five minutes to peek in. I'd just like to mention to Elendil that we've sort of had a policy of transparency in the Politburo, such that we reveal as many things as are prudent to the population. We figure that since there's likely to be a rebel in here at any given moment, remaining too secretive just keeps useful information out of the hands of those may help.
While you and whoever is on the new Politburo are free to run things as you see fit, I'd encourage you to maintain that transparency. I think it'll help more than hurt.
ElJeffe on
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thorgotthere is special providencein the fall of a sparrowRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
I've got an idea. Today, we accidentally leak the information that we already seered Elendil, and he showed up as a good guy. Elendil will then have a large amount of clout in the main thread, and he can tell them to kill someone.
Elendil, before you point fingers at anybody, you should probably run their names by me, so I can stop you from targeting Eri's network.
I nominate Gnasty for leaking Elendil's innocence.
Does anybody have any objections? It will only hide the truth from everybody for a single day, until the next politiburo is elected.
I've got an idea. Today, we accidentally leak the information that we already seered Elendil, and he showed up as a good guy. Elendil will then have a large amount of clout in the main thread, and he can tell them to kill someone.
Elendil, before you point fingers at anybody, you should probably run their names by me, so I can stop you from targeting Eri's network.
I nominate Gnasty for leaking Elendil's innocence.
Does anybody have any objections? It will only hide the truth from everybody for a single day, until the next politiburo is elected.
That seems fine to me. How should we choose the bandwagon target? Buzz buzz is an easy one for defending hakk for example, but I don't think it's particularly damning evidence.
We could go after more people who aren't very active and have only followed bandwagons?
I've got an idea. Today, we accidentally leak the information that we already seered Elendil, and he showed up as a good guy. Elendil will then have a large amount of clout in the main thread, and he can tell them to kill someone.
Elendil, before you point fingers at anybody, you should probably run their names by me, so I can stop you from targeting Eri's network.
I nominate Gnasty for leaking Elendil's innocence.
Does anybody have any objections? It will only hide the truth from everybody for a single day, until the next politiburo is elected.
I'm okay with leaking it. I hope I don't add too many more people to the anti-Gnasty faction though. I'd rather not die.
EDIT: I'll find a way to leak it when one more person says they're okay with the plan. Majority vote and all that.
Posts
This is right. The KGB will have to protect Elendil to protect himself.
EDIT: That's not just speculation, I PMed visiblehowl about it earlier because I was wondering the same thing.
So assume for the moment that I can be elected and protected without harming the KGB.
Stupid or not, it's the rules. I already asked.
EDIT: Here's the actual PM.
That's a terrible rule...
That's what I figured, since kills happen before election results.
So each GS takes a risk in being elected then, that's fair.
So our current plans are to seer elendil right? Do we want to keep thorgot on the politburo for the next 3 days? Do we want him to ascend to GS or keep him off both and possibly take the GS seat in the future?
Why didn't you tell us that rule, FWD? That would have been very useful to know before I asked people to seer me instead.
Yeah, we should seer Elendil. If we want to continue telling the soviets how to vote, I'd suggest we put thorgot in first place and Elendil in second.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
You didn't ask me to seer you to prove your innocence, remember? I picked your name myself because I thought you might be a rebel.
EDIT: I didn't share it because 1) I assumed visiblehowl would post it to the main thread like he did the other clarifications questions he was PM'd and 2) if by some chance he didn't, I thought that everyone would assume, as I did, that it was a stupid rule, that it wouldn't work that way, and that the GS-elect would be safe. If the rebels thought he was safe, then he would be safe.
I have a better suggestion. On the off chance that there are no rebels on the politiburo, keep me on the politiburo until day 6. I can then be elected.
Make no mention of my innocence to the outside.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Let us know if she balks. There's absolutely no reason for her not to tell you.
I believe the rules stated she is allowed the results of the night's seering then nothing after that in this thread. Therefore, she probably knows the results already.
Yes. Isn't that basically what I said?
Here it is.
Probably, I apologize for missing it if that's the case.
Also, hey guys, what's up?
So, you got a fun story to tell us? You avoided a decent amount of death tonight, that's gotta be pleasant.
Technically, we can read the thread to our final seering, then no more (if you do not get re-elected.)
I think the seering thing is a fair assumption but I didn't see that in the post you quoted. I feel mildly bad for RBB as we all look for cracks in his rules.
They've been very helpful though, so that's a good sign.
I think we need to look for people like Hakk for our next targets, people who do not want to be noticed by their voting records, not necessarily their posting habits. We've got some time yet, but we also have one more question to work with.
Do we aim to keep our politburo stacked with the same people as before? Personally, I'd rather give someone else a shot and they can have my position, just to have some fun with it. I think adding in a little new blood could help us discern potential rebels. I think replacing the whole cabinet isn't a good idea though.
For seering, we may as well check elendil. Now that I think about it, obtaining the GS seat as an unknown while the council holds a seering ability on majority vote, isn't the brightest thing to do for a rebel.
The specials might've known of the plans, but we did not. It's a fair play though since she's sticking with the people she truly believes to be innocents. I would've done the same.
At this point, we know 2 specials because they are dead and we can assume DA and Lady Eri are the vote manipulators, right?
We don't know the others, but if the network did get infiltrated, then we can assume we won't have much of a network left in a few days.
As for voting someone for death, I think it best we have the village decide that one for now. I'll be piping for people with lower post counts and have only followed established bandwagons or 'safe' votes, like Lady Eri for GS for example.
To prove my ability would require another day of vote manipulation and I think patience is wearing thin for that sort of thing. Today is also a horrible day to do it, with the buro elections and my own schedule.
Edit: Much appreciated FWD.
I'm willing to take your word for it at this point, since Eri didn't kill you but did kill another spy.
In terms of killing, I have no idea.
In terms of elections, Elendil should obviously be elected to GS, and I hope to be reelected to the politiburo.
a) We should seer Elendil. Right now the KGB has to protect him. We should elect him next turn and seer him. Hopefully he's innocent.
b) Lady Eri should definitely tell thorgot everything she knows. He is a confirmed innocent, and she is most likely going to die next turn.
c) We shouldn't reveal thorgot as an innocent. I'm pretty sure there is a capitalist on this politburo. If thorgot is killed next turn I think it will prove one of us is a capitalist, and if he isn't, I think it might go a long way towards vindicating us (but I'm not completely sure about that either, because a capitalist on the council might realize that not killing thorgot will make everyone on the politburo less suspicious, and they might think that that is more advantageous than preventing one more person from joining the council.)
I think we are all agreed on these points.
I really wish we could guard both Lady Eri and Elendil
Kills happen before the election. Keep in mind, in narration time, those don't necessarily happen one right after the other. In realtime the kills could come a couple weeks before the elections. So the KGB should be forced to guard the person who is GS when the kills occur, not for some possible future GS. Plus, if the GS-elect is killed, the next highest vote-getter is elected, so the KGB doesn't really care if Random Candidate #1 dies.
Sorry that the rules don't work exactly the way you wish they would.
I'm unconvinced that Hakkekage was anything other than blind luck. What, did Eri analyze the complete lack of evidence surrounding Hakke and use her Jedi mind powers to figure it out? Assuming Eri was even responsible for that death, it was luck. Further, I suspect it's the sort of shit that she pulled with DA that resulted in two specials dying. She seems to favor overly complicated schemes, and I think she got in touch with the wrong person. Bam, two dead specials.
Anyway, thoughts before I'm out for the day:
- Definitely give thorgot all info. If she balks, it's not necessarily an ill omen, she's just not keen on giving up power.
- Definitely seer Elendil, and keep him as GS for his full term. Trying to sneak in thorgot is too likely to result in nothing but dead thorgot and non-GS Elendil. We have Elendil in place, and if we confirm him, that's a very good thing.
- Keep thorgot's seering secret. Nothing has actually happened yet that would imply that the rebels are in the Politburo, and the general public gains nothing from knowing that thorgot's innocent. We can reveal that we confirmed someone and that the network is in good hands, and leave it at that.
- Whoever takes over network responsibilities should play things closely.
Before I leave, I'm sending in a seer order for Elendil. If you guys come up with an alternate plan, that's cool. If this is the last I have to play around in the Politburo, then it's been fun working with you guys.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
While you and whoever is on the new Politburo are free to run things as you see fit, I'd encourage you to maintain that transparency. I think it'll help more than hurt.
Elendil, before you point fingers at anybody, you should probably run their names by me, so I can stop you from targeting Eri's network.
I nominate Gnasty for leaking Elendil's innocence.
Does anybody have any objections? It will only hide the truth from everybody for a single day, until the next politiburo is elected.
That seems fine to me. How should we choose the bandwagon target? Buzz buzz is an easy one for defending hakk for example, but I don't think it's particularly damning evidence.
We could go after more people who aren't very active and have only followed bandwagons?
EDIT: I'll find a way to leak it when one more person says they're okay with the plan. Majority vote and all that.