I'm generally against all the outside of work firings as long as they aren't directly against the company/coworkers by name. Employees aren't slaves. Want to control their actions outside of work, fine pay them min wage as on call for the 128 hours a week they aren't working.
So if you're salary and you make under $64,000 you should be held to a lesser standard. That seems reasonable.
huh?
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
I'm generally against all the outside of work firings as long as they aren't directly against the company/coworkers by name. Employees aren't slaves. Want to control their actions outside of work, fine pay them min wage as on call for the 128 hours a week they aren't working.
So if you're salary and you make under $64,000 you should be held to a lesser standard. That seems reasonable.
huh?
It was cocktail napkin math.
It's an approximation of what your salary would have to be if you were paid 7.25 an hour for every hour.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
It all depends on if it creates a hostile work environment, if the person complaining genuinely feels that they can no longer continue to work productively at the organization. That depends on the organization and the people involved. It's the HR department's job to analyze the situation and come to a decision based on those factors.
I may not agree with the decision, but I don't think it's illegal to fire any of those people.
i think i agree
i am just saying that this standard of being held professionally accountable for your private (constitutionally protected) statements doesn't always - or even generally - go in the direction we'd like it to.
I'm generally against all the outside of work firings as long as they aren't directly against the company/coworkers by name. Employees aren't slaves. Want to control their actions outside of work, fine pay them min wage as on call for the 128 hours a week they aren't working.
So if you're salary and you make under $64,000 you should be held to a lesser standard. That seems reasonable.
huh?
It was cocktail napkin math.
It's an approximation of what your salary would have to be if you were paid 7.25 an hour for every hour.
All I was saying was that if you as my employer want to tell me I can or can't go to a Klan Rally or a Gay bar for the 128/h a week I'm not in the office for, then you can pay me for those hours. And since I'm not unreasonable I'll sell you those hours at the much reduced rate of the minimum legal wage.
Cause I could use the extra $1400 a week, more than I want to post offensive shit on facebook.
A friend of mine lent me a book that went into detail regarding gays in America during that time frame, the events leading up to and during the riots, and how things shaped the gay rights movement in the US.
I think this was it, and it made some fascinating reading that really opened my eyes to a lot of the little details that even a few jogs around the D&D gay rights threads hadn't.
Not part of any work based sensitivity training, but a friend at work came out as a lesbian a few years ago, and asked if I wanted to read said book. I was happy to do so, and am glad I had, because it was very enlightening.
Don't you? I mean, don't you really? Open racists can be your bank manager, your boss, your mother, your nephew, anyone at all. While there hasn't been a genetic link found (yet), it is possible that the environment they were nurtured in was the cause of their long, drawn out and truly Herculean rant on why ________'s aren't trustworthy, or why that lady needs to make 'em a sammich. For just the price of a cup of coffee per day, you can support these misguided souls.
Queue Sarah Mclachlan and we've got ourselves an informercial.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I still wouldn't fire someone for anything they did outside work that wasn't criminal or reason for fear of criminal activity.
Partly for the freedom of speech/the company doesn't own you angle. Partly because one kind of hostile workplace is where everyone is scared of pissing off management.
I might talk to them about something they wrote or said that came to my attention, if it was extreme enough.
I still wouldn't fire someone for anything they did outside work that wasn't criminal or reason for fear of criminal activity.
Partly for the freedom of speech/the company doesn't own you angle. Partly because me kind of hostile workplace is where everyone is scared of pissing off management.
I might talk to them about something they wrote or said that came to my attention, if it was extreme enough.
But fire? Good god, no.
What about my example of the employee who was talking shit about her coworkers on her secret Twitter account? I would be very hesitant to work together with someone who was going around saying "so and so is an idiot" behind people's backs.
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Free speech goes both ways.
I wouldn't personally like what they did but that'd be about it. Of course, I know what can and can't get me fired for saying and I specifically don't ever say those things on the internet. Or really at all.
Because when it comes down to it, outside of protected classes I would rather people be able to fire someone who makes them or their other workers intensely, deeply uncomfortable and doesn't have the sense to not keep it somewhere it can't be discovered.
Yeah, still don't think it's cool to fire someone for stuff they say outside the office, provided they make reasonable efforts to keep their private idiocy private.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Yeah, still don't think it's cool to fire someone for stuff they say outside the office, provided they make reasonable efforts to keep their private idiocy private.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
I imagine it's the nature of where I work but being a member of a hate group is (supposed to be) grounds for removal within the Navy (And I do believe all the other branches) because it directly contradicts our organization's goals and values.
Which I'm more than fine with. It'd be a huge issue for people that worked with someone like that and we've got better shit than to deal with Bob being too dumb to keep his shit away from who he actually is.
I still wouldn't fire someone for anything they did outside work that wasn't criminal or reason for fear of criminal activity.
Partly for the freedom of speech/the company doesn't own you angle. Partly because me kind of hostile workplace is where everyone is scared of pissing off management.
I might talk to them about something they wrote or said that came to my attention, if it was extreme enough.
But fire? Good god, no.
What about my example of the employee who was talking shit about her coworkers on her secret Twitter account? I would be very hesitant to work together with someone who was going around saying "so and so is an idiot" behind people's backs.
Grownups have to deal with people who don't like them or they don't like all the time.
I mean, customers. God I hated customers when I worked in a shop.
You just have to deal with it.
If someone says things in the workplace, that's a different matter. But even if I know John hates me because I have a half-Japanese daughter, and I hate him for being a racist, that's our problem to keep as our personal problem and to be professionals about.
The solution is not to erode freedom of speech even further. Don't you like having freedoms? I know I do.
Maybe if there was a massive epidemic of people being fired for liking the color blue I'd be more concerned.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Things are a little different in the military. I've had coworkers that I'd like to kill, but my job has never involved being trained to kill and having access to the means to do it.
Maybe if there was a massive epidemic of people being fired for liking the color blue I'd be more concerned.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Things are a little different in the military. I've had coworkers that I'd like to kill, but my job has never involved being trained to kill and having access to the means to do it.
Neither have most service members'.
Also, not really relevant.
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Clown ShoesGive me hay or give me death.Registered Userregular
Maybe if there was a massive epidemic of people being fired for liking the color blue I'd be more concerned.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Things are a little different in the military. I've had coworkers that I'd like to kill, but my job has never involved being trained to kill and having access to the means to do it.
Neither have most service members'.
Also, not really relevant.
It might have been poorly executed, but I thought that was pretty obviously a joke.
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Free speech goes both ways.
Well, I mean, unless you're imagining a workplace that includes "unborn babies" among its workforce, that's kind of not the same thing.
Yeah, still don't think it's cool to fire someone for stuff they say outside the office, provided they make reasonable efforts to keep their private idiocy private.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
I imagine it's the nature of where I work but being a member of a hate group is (supposed to be) grounds for removal within the Navy (And I do believe all the other branches) because it directly contradicts our organization's goals and values.
Which I'm more than fine with. It'd be a huge issue for people that worked with someone like that and we've got better shit than to deal with Bob being too dumb to keep his shit away from who he actually is.
you guys also fire people who are into swinging or have an affair
and, like, up until earlier this year you fired people who were gay
the military isn't really a model of an ideal civilian workplace
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Free speech goes both ways.
Well, I mean, unless you're imagining a workplace that includes "unborn babies" among its workforce, that's kind of not the same thing.
Er, workplaces that include pregnant women are not uncommon at all.
Looking around into employees' Facebook, private doings etc. is borderline stalking in my opinion, and whatever private opinions people have are none of your fucking business if you're their superior at work or what have you.
Now, it becomes your business if these disagreeable things interfere with their work in any way, be it expressing them in the workplace, publicly causing bad PR to the company, etc. etc.
However, finding out that an employee who has been professional about their private opinions has traits you disagree with, that would not have come up without what's essentially snooping on your part, should not be grounds for firing them. You do not own the employees, their private thoughts are none of your fucking business, what they do on their free time separate from the company is none of your fucking business if it isn't tied to the company in some way. If the issues you have with them did not surface through the employees' actions, it's you who are creating a hostile work environment through snooping through things that aren't yours to know, and making them into issues where none existed before.
An employee can be a racist abortionist fundamentalist atheist gay nazi S&M breatharian for all I care, if they keep it to themselves in relation to any professional connections and situations. If I go snooping through their private matters, and learn of these things, it's me creating the problem and not the employee. They did not bring any of this up, they acted professionally, and my inability keep to my own business(that is, things relating to the professional company time behavior of employees, not their free time outside work) is the problem.
Maybe if there was a massive epidemic of people being fired for liking the color blue I'd be more concerned.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Different boss, you get fired for thinking they shouldn't die.
You still OK with that?
Sure.
I mean, I wouldn't like it personally. But whatevs.
Of course, I very much doubt it's a view that very any outside of a very, very small number of employers are going to be actually care about or be at all likely to discover even if they did.
you guys also fire people who are into swinging or have an affair
and, like, up until earlier this year you fired people who were gay
the military isn't really a model of an ideal civilian workplace
This is the best you've got? I've never known a person to actually get kicked out or even punished just for swinging. And I've only seen people punished for cheating on spouses, not kicked out.
But then I don't require my work place to be either perfect in every respect or to tell someone who's uncomfortable with the fact that Bob spends weekends downtown giving speeches to crowds of neo nazis on how it's time to run those darn black people out of town to suck it up.
Oh, and meanwhile, every private company in the country right now is legally free to (And I'm sure more than a couple do privately) have a ban against homosexuals working there.
Oh, and meanwhile, every private company in the country right now is legally free to (And I'm sure more than a couple do privately) have a ban against homosexuals working there.
Almost half the states and the District of Columbia have laws that currently prohibit sexual orientation discrimination in both public and private jobs: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.
In addition, a few states have laws prohibiting sexual orientation discrimination in public workplaces only.
You are correct, however, that there is no federal law against discrimination based on sexual orientation, and there should be. It's important that people are aware of their rights though, so correcting you seemed like a good idea.
Maybe if there was a massive epidemic of people being fired for liking the color blue I'd be more concerned.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Different boss, you get fired for thinking they shouldn't die.
You still OK with that?
Sure.
I mean, I wouldn't like it personally. But whatevs.
Of course, I very much doubt it's a view that very any outside of a very, very small number of employers are going to be actually care about or be at all likely to discover even if they did.
you guys also fire people who are into swinging or have an affair
and, like, up until earlier this year you fired people who were gay
the military isn't really a model of an ideal civilian workplace
This is the best you've got? I've never known a person to actually get kicked out or even punished just for swinging. And I've only seen people punished for cheating on spouses, not kicked out.
But then I don't require my work place to be either perfect in every respect or to tell someone who's uncomfortable with the fact that Bob spends weekends downtown giving speeches to crowds of neo nazis on how it's time to run those darn black people out of town to suck it up.
Oh, and meanwhile, every private company in the country right now is legally free to (And I'm sure more than a couple do privately) have a ban against homosexuals working there.
the point is that when employees private lives are used to hold them professionally culpable, it doesn't always, or even generally, align with the opinions that we might prefer. the military - your example of how it's done right - professionally penalizes people for all sorts of reasons that, in my view, citizens should not be professionally held to account for.
also what is the deal with your tone lately? i don't think i've seen you politely disagree with someone in months. it's been a festival of furious sarcasm.
Gee how could knowing someone where you work wants you to die create a hostile environment? Knowing that every time they see you they think you're scum and that the government should force you in to camps as cheap labor.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Free speech goes both ways.
Well, I mean, unless you're imagining a workplace that includes "unborn babies" among its workforce, that's kind of not the same thing.
Er, workplaces that include pregnant women are not uncommon at all.
Not sure where you're going with this.
A statement that supports a woman's right to choose to have an abortion (which I assume is what you mean by "support the killing of unborn babies") is in no way an attack on pregnant women. If a pregnant woman felt that her work environment were hostile due to a coworker's public statements in favour of pushing pregnant women down flights of stairs or advocating forced abortions or something like that, then there would obviously be a problem. But the problem wouldn't be due to the fact that those statements are hostile and threatening towards fetuses; the problem would be due to the fact that those statements and hostile and threatening towards women.
Yeah, still don't think it's cool to fire someone for stuff they say outside the office, provided they make reasonable efforts to keep their private idiocy private.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
In principle, I do agree with this. I think that if there is a person who leaves their personal views at home, and comes into the office and acts mechanically professional, it shouldn't matter what their personal views actually are. Regardless if it's their opinion on a given topic, some group they associate with, etc. If those actions - even outside and wholly unrelated to work - cross into criminal, that's a different story, but I can agree with you in principle.
However, even in a professional setting, there are so many ways that our personal opinions affect what we do in small ways that it's pretty much impossible to separate our personal and professional opinions. We see that in hiring - all things being equal, a person with a 'black' name is significantly less likely to get called in for an interview. Women are more likely to get smaller raises or passed over for promotions than a man.
For someone who just has a basic job to do - a system admin, machine operator, whatever...their personal views and opinions shouldn't matter as long as they keep them out of the office. They come in, punch a clock, get along, and leave. Most places aren't going to discipline them unless their personal opinions enter the workplace, be it interpersonal conflicts with another co-worker, promoting their (whatever) on company time, etc. Now, if they do publicize their views, they shouldn't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt if there is an issue either.
However, when someone enters management, works for human resources, is a public representative of the company, or is part of decisions like scheduling or team assignments that directly affect other people, and their individual judgement affects their co-workers salaries or the companies hiring practices, those personal views and opinions do become part of the corporate culture and identity. Even if it's only in a small or insidious way. Doing the right thing includes avoiding the appearance of doing the wrong thing.
I'll also say that I think there are different lines...for example, religion is a protected class, so someone's opinion (either way) on abortion shouldn't be relevant to discipline / firing. Medical procedures - like say an abortion? Those are explicitly private under HIPAA unless published / made public by the individual. Sexual orientation is protected in many states, and really should be a Federally protected class. Family status? Age? Also protected classes.
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association though? Absolutely support that. Doesn't mean you should have freedom from consequences of your speech or associations.
If my employee had a tweet talking about how he scammed some sweet Nazi Memorabilla off a holocaust museum and that tweet was right before another one about how he had such a blast at the #DeebaserCO company picnic...
I would fire his ass so hard. If you can potentially cause your company embarassment by broadcasting your shitty views, keep them to your fucking self.
At what point do you stop representing your employer and are allowed to be yourself? I know in your example you've used the company picnic, which ties back into your job, but lots of people have been fired for things they only do in their personal lives.
Well, it may seem unfair, but if your expression is tied to your employment or could conceivably be featured in a gawker/HuffPo blog post titled "DeebaserCo: is it a haven for _________?"
Yeah, but I'm talking about when my personal life and professional life are seperate, not when I'm stating "I work for X and think Y" in any manner.
Would you fire someone if you found out they were a KKK member, even if they never made any racist remarks or did anything else to seem racist while at work?
That would depend on a lot, such as how I came to learn this, the person's position in the company, the position's visibility, etc.
Well for learning this, we're just talking about a legal way of obtaining such information.
I can see how a position and it's visbility could have an effect, but only for positions where a person is supposed to be driving the image of the company. For example, a CEO. Such persons are the exception though. In general, though, I would think that you should treat a janitor or an executive the same with regards to such information.
Obviously, it depends on company culture as well. I work at a small, start-up style company with a very relaxed, nerdy, familial culture. Everyone is expected to not merely tolerate one another, but to be friendly (bordering on creepy WE ALL LOVE EACH OTHER cultishness ). So interpersonal conflict is a big no-no, if you talk shit about a coworker, even in your off-time, you will be fired. But I can see how that would not really work in a larger, more buttoned-up environment.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
If my employee had a tweet talking about how he scammed some sweet Nazi Memorabilla off a holocaust museum and that tweet was right before another one about how he had such a blast at the #DeebaserCO company picnic...
I would fire his ass so hard. If you can potentially cause your company embarassment by broadcasting your shitty views, keep them to your fucking self.
At what point do you stop representing your employer and are allowed to be yourself? I know in your example you've used the company picnic, which ties back into your job, but lots of people have been fired for things they only do in their personal lives.
Well, it may seem unfair, but if your expression is tied to your employment or could conceivably be featured in a gawker/HuffPo blog post titled "DeebaserCo: is it a haven for _________?"
Yeah, but I'm talking about when my personal life and professional life are seperate, not when I'm stating "I work for X and think Y" in any manner.
Would you fire someone if you found out they were a KKK member, even if they never made any racist remarks or did anything else to seem racist while at work?
That would depend on a lot, such as how I came to learn this, the person's position in the company, the position's visibility, etc.
Well for learning this, we're just talking about a legal way of obtaining such information.
I can see how a position and it's visbility could have an effect, but only for positions where a person is supposed to be driving the image of the company. For example, a CEO. Such persons are the exception though. In general, though, I would think that you should treat a janitor or an executive the same with regards to such information.
I disagree, dude. It's not about punishing people for having views that you disagree with, it's about limiting the potential harm to the company.
If you find out that the janitor is a klan member through some legal means, you're certainly entitled to say "Yeah, well, it's his life, and he doesn't bring that shit in here, so whatevs. Rock on, shithead", but if the person is a manager it doesn't matter if they are a particularly visible manager, keeping that person on staff is a shitstorm waiting to happen.
Just imagine your picture in the Huffington Post because your company is being sued for discrimination and you knowingly continued to employ a racist.
I am actually a little bit shocked. Don't you believe in employee rights at all?
That's an awfully loaded question. I for one believe in employee rights, but I disagree with you with respect to how far you think they should extend.
Sure, sorry. I know you guys believe in rights of protected classes or whatever the expression is, and I'm sure you believe in some basic rights.
But the right to just speak freely when I'm not at work seems so basic! I don't understand how you can have the 1st Amendment saying the government shouldn't limit speech at all, and then be comfortable with draconian limitations from your employer. Those seem to be incompatible things to accept.
I think a manager who is saying racist shit in their off-time miiiight be okay (though I would personally quit ASAP once I found out) but if you are able to make a correlation between their off-time opinions and their managerial decisions, then it becomes a problem (i.e. once it comes out that Bob the manager is a racist, suddenly his decision to promote White Employee and not Black Employee no longer looks like a coincidence).
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I am actually a little bit shocked. Don't you believe in employee rights at all?
That's an awfully loaded question. I for one believe in employee rights, but I disagree with you with respect to how far you think they should extend.
Sure, sorry. I know you guys believe in rights of protected classes or whatever the expression is, and I'm sure you believe in some basic rights.
But the right to just speak freely when I'm not at work seems so basic! I don't understand how you can have the 1st Amendment saying the government shouldn't limit speech at all, and then be comfortable with draconian limitations from your employer. Those seem to be incompatible things to accept.
In general, Anericans support strictly limited government and expansively unlimited private entities compared to the rest of the world
I do agree with you, though, that companies taking an interest in the private lives of their employees outside of the most obvious, impactful situations is troublesome
+1
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
CEO contracts usually permit a for cause termination if the CEO engages in behavior that damages the finances or reputation of the company. The most common way that this type of thing gets tripped up is if the CEO is arrested for DUI or involved in some media scandal.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
I am actually a little bit shocked. Don't you believe in employee rights at all?
That's an awfully loaded question. I for one believe in employee rights, but I disagree with you with respect to how far you think they should extend.
Sure, sorry. I know you guys believe in rights of protected classes or whatever the expression is, and I'm sure you believe in some basic rights.
But the right to just speak freely when I'm not at work seems so basic! I don't understand how you can have the 1st Amendment saying the government shouldn't limit speech at all, and then be comfortable with draconian limitations from your employer. Those seem to be incompatible things to accept.
I don't really see it as Draconian. Okay, I'm not saying that it's totally cool for your company to term you for writing "BATTLE STAR GALACTICA IS BETTER THAN STAR WARS, YOU DOUCHENOZZLE" on some random message board. You have the right to do that. However, I believe you also have the responsibility to not put your employer in a bad spot.*
*EDIT: So if you're working on the next JJ Abrams joint, it's probably best that you keep that nugget to yourself less the Internet writes an article titled "Even people working on the Star Wars movie, think it's a bad idea"
If you say something on your facebook wall that's suspect and you have it set to private, exclude coworkers, and don't mention where you work, there is probably no way what you say as a regular person will ever rise to the level of "this guy's gotta go"
However, if you put the same suspect comment on your LinkedIn page it's a bit worse imo, because where you work is a much larger part of your identity on that site. Even though you're doing it in your private time, you're a little bit more connected to work even if you aren't an official representative of the company.
Yeah, still don't think it's cool to fire someone for stuff they say outside the office, provided they make reasonable efforts to keep their private idiocy private.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
In principle, I do agree with this. I think that if there is a person who leaves their personal views at home, and comes into the office and acts mechanically professional, it shouldn't matter what their personal views actually are. Regardless if it's their opinion on a given topic, some group they associate with, etc. If those actions - even outside and wholly unrelated to work - cross into criminal, that's a different story, but I can agree with you in principle.
However, even in a professional setting, there are so many ways that our personal opinions affect what we do in small ways that it's pretty much impossible to separate our personal and professional opinions. We see that in hiring - all things being equal, a person with a 'black' name is significantly less likely to get called in for an interview. Women are more likely to get smaller raises or passed over for promotions than a man.
For someone who just has a basic job to do - a system admin, machine operator, whatever...their personal views and opinions shouldn't matter as long as they keep them out of the office. They come in, punch a clock, get along, and leave. Most places aren't going to discipline them unless their personal opinions enter the workplace, be it interpersonal conflicts with another co-worker, promoting their (whatever) on company time, etc. Now, if they do publicize their views, they shouldn't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt if there is an issue either.
However, when someone enters management, works for human resources, is a public representative of the company, or is part of decisions like scheduling or team assignments that directly affect other people, and their individual judgement affects their co-workers salaries or the companies hiring practices, those personal views and opinions do become part of the corporate culture and identity. Even if it's only in a small or insidious way. Doing the right thing includes avoiding the appearance of doing the wrong thing.
I'll also say that I think there are different lines...for example, religion is a protected class, so someone's opinion (either way) on abortion shouldn't be relevant to discipline / firing. Medical procedures - like say an abortion? Those are explicitly private under HIPAA unless published / made public by the individual. Sexual orientation is protected in many states, and really should be a Federally protected class. Family status? Age? Also protected classes.
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association though? Absolutely support that. Doesn't mean you should have freedom from consequences of your speech or associations.
One of the problems, though, is that this makes it trivially easy to fire anyone at any time. Like I said, everyone is going to have some personal opinion or factor that someone else is going to think is terrible. So let's say I don't like you. No particular reason why, I just don't like you. I spend some time on Google and find out that you once posted something on a message board that could be maybe construed as racist if I squint at it really hard. Now I get to fire you for cause, right? Because we don't tolerate that behavior. Or maybe I find out that, ten years ago, you cheated on your girlfriend. We don't want to be associated with unfaithful guys, sorry.
There is no way to enforce a policy of "We can fire you for doing terrible things in your private life" that does not turn into "We can fire you for any reason at all and just make up some bullshit reason about how your behavior reflects poorly on our company." It also would completely invalidate the notion of protected classes. Right now, if you want to fire Ted for being black, you at least have to make up some bullshit papertrail to justify axing him. But now it's just, "Oh, Ted went to an Obama rally. I can't work anywhere with a Democrat. Fuck you, Ted."
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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huh?
It was cocktail napkin math.
It's an approximation of what your salary would have to be if you were paid 7.25 an hour for every hour.
i think i agree
i am just saying that this standard of being held professionally accountable for your private (constitutionally protected) statements doesn't always - or even generally - go in the direction we'd like it to.
All I was saying was that if you as my employer want to tell me I can or can't go to a Klan Rally or a Gay bar for the 128/h a week I'm not in the office for, then you can pay me for those hours. And since I'm not unreasonable I'll sell you those hours at the much reduced rate of the minimum legal wage.
Cause I could use the extra $1400 a week, more than I want to post offensive shit on facebook.
Damnit, beat me to it.
A friend of mine lent me a book that went into detail regarding gays in America during that time frame, the events leading up to and during the riots, and how things shaped the gay rights movement in the US.
I think this was it, and it made some fascinating reading that really opened my eyes to a lot of the little details that even a few jogs around the D&D gay rights threads hadn't.
Not part of any work based sensitivity training, but a friend at work came out as a lesbian a few years ago, and asked if I wanted to read said book. I was happy to do so, and am glad I had, because it was very enlightening.
Don't you? I mean, don't you really? Open racists can be your bank manager, your boss, your mother, your nephew, anyone at all. While there hasn't been a genetic link found (yet), it is possible that the environment they were nurtured in was the cause of their long, drawn out and truly Herculean rant on why ________'s aren't trustworthy, or why that lady needs to make 'em a sammich. For just the price of a cup of coffee per day, you can support these misguided souls.
Queue Sarah Mclachlan and we've got ourselves an informercial.
Partly for the freedom of speech/the company doesn't own you angle. Partly because one kind of hostile workplace is where everyone is scared of pissing off management.
I might talk to them about something they wrote or said that came to my attention, if it was extreme enough.
But fire? Good god, no.
What about my example of the employee who was talking shit about her coworkers on her secret Twitter account? I would be very hesitant to work together with someone who was going around saying "so and so is an idiot" behind people's backs.
I wonder.
If someone accuses you of creating a hostile work environment because you "support the killing of unborn babies" when you have never told them your opinions on abortion or expressed those opinions at work, do you think that would be reasonable? Would you be okay with someone losing their job because of it?
Free speech goes both ways.
I wouldn't personally like what they did but that'd be about it. Of course, I know what can and can't get me fired for saying and I specifically don't ever say those things on the internet. Or really at all.
Because when it comes down to it, outside of protected classes I would rather people be able to fire someone who makes them or their other workers intensely, deeply uncomfortable and doesn't have the sense to not keep it somewhere it can't be discovered.
Honestly, look around your office. Look at those people you work with. Odds are, every single one of them has at least one terrible opinion, one thing that, if you knew, you would think, "Wow, you're kind of an awful person." Or, if you're being more charitable: "You're a complete goddamn idiot." Maybe they did something really terrible when they were a kid. Maybe they have a political belief you find morally abhorrent. The more opinionated you are, the more likely a given person is going to be super-opinionated in the opposite direction.
That's why you don't bring this shit up at work. Because that stuff can get distracting. These people aren't your friends. You don't have a choice of whether or not to work with them. You are paid to deal with them, and they are paid to deal with you, starting and ending with how you do your job. Personal opinions? Yeah, if you're a professional grown-up person, that doesn't play into it. Shut up and do your job. You don't have to be everyone's buddy once you hit the parking lot, but you have to be everyone's partner before that point.
And there's reciprocity here. You agree not to let personal shit get in the way, and they agree not to bring it into the workplace. If it winds up in the workplace on accident? If you see someone at a political rally you find offensive, or you learn through the grapevine that they're into orgies, or you find out they support killing God's precious rape-fetuses? That's not their fault. The fact that you had no idea that Bob in accounting was really into Stormfront means that Bob in accounting was doing his job and not bringing personal stuff into the workplace. Good on Bob. Bob is a fucking asshole, but he's a fucking asshole who does his job.
As a coworker, you have a responsibility to get along with everyone else in your office. You have a responsibility to not let personal matters get in the way of doing your job. And every single word I just typed should apply just as much if you're in HR, or if you're the boss. You don't have to be super-nice to the horrible racist, but you have to be professional. And if he asks why you don't want to grab beers after work, politely inform him, "Because I saw you at that rally, Bob." Bam, problem solved, you're a professional.
I imagine it's the nature of where I work but being a member of a hate group is (supposed to be) grounds for removal within the Navy (And I do believe all the other branches) because it directly contradicts our organization's goals and values.
Which I'm more than fine with. It'd be a huge issue for people that worked with someone like that and we've got better shit than to deal with Bob being too dumb to keep his shit away from who he actually is.
Grownups have to deal with people who don't like them or they don't like all the time.
I mean, customers. God I hated customers when I worked in a shop.
You just have to deal with it.
If someone says things in the workplace, that's a different matter. But even if I know John hates me because I have a half-Japanese daughter, and I hate him for being a racist, that's our problem to keep as our personal problem and to be professionals about.
The solution is not to erode freedom of speech even further. Don't you like having freedoms? I know I do.
Since there isn't, I have no problem getting rid of someone who thinks certain coworkers should die.
Things are a little different in the military. I've had coworkers that I'd like to kill, but my job has never involved being trained to kill and having access to the means to do it.
Neither have most service members'.
Also, not really relevant.
It might have been poorly executed, but I thought that was pretty obviously a joke.
Well, I mean, unless you're imagining a workplace that includes "unborn babies" among its workforce, that's kind of not the same thing.
Different boss, you get fired for thinking they shouldn't die.
You still OK with that?
you guys also fire people who are into swinging or have an affair
and, like, up until earlier this year you fired people who were gay
the military isn't really a model of an ideal civilian workplace
Er, workplaces that include pregnant women are not uncommon at all.
Not sure where you're going with this.
Looking around into employees' Facebook, private doings etc. is borderline stalking in my opinion, and whatever private opinions people have are none of your fucking business if you're their superior at work or what have you.
Now, it becomes your business if these disagreeable things interfere with their work in any way, be it expressing them in the workplace, publicly causing bad PR to the company, etc. etc.
However, finding out that an employee who has been professional about their private opinions has traits you disagree with, that would not have come up without what's essentially snooping on your part, should not be grounds for firing them. You do not own the employees, their private thoughts are none of your fucking business, what they do on their free time separate from the company is none of your fucking business if it isn't tied to the company in some way. If the issues you have with them did not surface through the employees' actions, it's you who are creating a hostile work environment through snooping through things that aren't yours to know, and making them into issues where none existed before.
An employee can be a racist abortionist fundamentalist atheist gay nazi S&M breatharian for all I care, if they keep it to themselves in relation to any professional connections and situations. If I go snooping through their private matters, and learn of these things, it's me creating the problem and not the employee. They did not bring any of this up, they acted professionally, and my inability keep to my own business(that is, things relating to the professional company time behavior of employees, not their free time outside work) is the problem.
Sure.
I mean, I wouldn't like it personally. But whatevs.
Of course, I very much doubt it's a view that very any outside of a very, very small number of employers are going to be actually care about or be at all likely to discover even if they did.
This is the best you've got? I've never known a person to actually get kicked out or even punished just for swinging. And I've only seen people punished for cheating on spouses, not kicked out.
But then I don't require my work place to be either perfect in every respect or to tell someone who's uncomfortable with the fact that Bob spends weekends downtown giving speeches to crowds of neo nazis on how it's time to run those darn black people out of town to suck it up.
Oh, and meanwhile, every private company in the country right now is legally free to (And I'm sure more than a couple do privately) have a ban against homosexuals working there.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/sexual-orientation-discrimination-rights-29541.html
You are correct, however, that there is no federal law against discrimination based on sexual orientation, and there should be. It's important that people are aware of their rights though, so correcting you seemed like a good idea.
the point is that when employees private lives are used to hold them professionally culpable, it doesn't always, or even generally, align with the opinions that we might prefer. the military - your example of how it's done right - professionally penalizes people for all sorts of reasons that, in my view, citizens should not be professionally held to account for.
also what is the deal with your tone lately? i don't think i've seen you politely disagree with someone in months. it's been a festival of furious sarcasm.
A statement that supports a woman's right to choose to have an abortion (which I assume is what you mean by "support the killing of unborn babies") is in no way an attack on pregnant women. If a pregnant woman felt that her work environment were hostile due to a coworker's public statements in favour of pushing pregnant women down flights of stairs or advocating forced abortions or something like that, then there would obviously be a problem. But the problem wouldn't be due to the fact that those statements are hostile and threatening towards fetuses; the problem would be due to the fact that those statements and hostile and threatening towards women.
In principle, I do agree with this. I think that if there is a person who leaves their personal views at home, and comes into the office and acts mechanically professional, it shouldn't matter what their personal views actually are. Regardless if it's their opinion on a given topic, some group they associate with, etc. If those actions - even outside and wholly unrelated to work - cross into criminal, that's a different story, but I can agree with you in principle.
However, even in a professional setting, there are so many ways that our personal opinions affect what we do in small ways that it's pretty much impossible to separate our personal and professional opinions. We see that in hiring - all things being equal, a person with a 'black' name is significantly less likely to get called in for an interview. Women are more likely to get smaller raises or passed over for promotions than a man.
For someone who just has a basic job to do - a system admin, machine operator, whatever...their personal views and opinions shouldn't matter as long as they keep them out of the office. They come in, punch a clock, get along, and leave. Most places aren't going to discipline them unless their personal opinions enter the workplace, be it interpersonal conflicts with another co-worker, promoting their (whatever) on company time, etc. Now, if they do publicize their views, they shouldn't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt if there is an issue either.
However, when someone enters management, works for human resources, is a public representative of the company, or is part of decisions like scheduling or team assignments that directly affect other people, and their individual judgement affects their co-workers salaries or the companies hiring practices, those personal views and opinions do become part of the corporate culture and identity. Even if it's only in a small or insidious way. Doing the right thing includes avoiding the appearance of doing the wrong thing.
I'll also say that I think there are different lines...for example, religion is a protected class, so someone's opinion (either way) on abortion shouldn't be relevant to discipline / firing. Medical procedures - like say an abortion? Those are explicitly private under HIPAA unless published / made public by the individual. Sexual orientation is protected in many states, and really should be a Federally protected class. Family status? Age? Also protected classes.
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association though? Absolutely support that. Doesn't mean you should have freedom from consequences of your speech or associations.
Yeah, but I'm talking about when my personal life and professional life are seperate, not when I'm stating "I work for X and think Y" in any manner.
Well for learning this, we're just talking about a legal way of obtaining such information.
I can see how a position and it's visbility could have an effect, but only for positions where a person is supposed to be driving the image of the company. For example, a CEO. Such persons are the exception though. In general, though, I would think that you should treat a janitor or an executive the same with regards to such information.
I disagree, dude. It's not about punishing people for having views that you disagree with, it's about limiting the potential harm to the company.
If you find out that the janitor is a klan member through some legal means, you're certainly entitled to say "Yeah, well, it's his life, and he doesn't bring that shit in here, so whatevs. Rock on, shithead", but if the person is a manager it doesn't matter if they are a particularly visible manager, keeping that person on staff is a shitstorm waiting to happen.
Just imagine your picture in the Huffington Post because your company is being sued for discrimination and you knowingly continued to employ a racist.
That's an awfully loaded question. I for one believe in employee rights, but I disagree with you with respect to how far you think they should extend.
Sure, sorry. I know you guys believe in rights of protected classes or whatever the expression is, and I'm sure you believe in some basic rights.
But the right to just speak freely when I'm not at work seems so basic! I don't understand how you can have the 1st Amendment saying the government shouldn't limit speech at all, and then be comfortable with draconian limitations from your employer. Those seem to be incompatible things to accept.
In general, Anericans support strictly limited government and expansively unlimited private entities compared to the rest of the world
I do agree with you, though, that companies taking an interest in the private lives of their employees outside of the most obvious, impactful situations is troublesome
I don't really see it as Draconian. Okay, I'm not saying that it's totally cool for your company to term you for writing "BATTLE STAR GALACTICA IS BETTER THAN STAR WARS, YOU DOUCHENOZZLE" on some random message board. You have the right to do that. However, I believe you also have the responsibility to not put your employer in a bad spot.*
*EDIT: So if you're working on the next JJ Abrams joint, it's probably best that you keep that nugget to yourself less the Internet writes an article titled "Even people working on the Star Wars movie, think it's a bad idea"
If you say something on your facebook wall that's suspect and you have it set to private, exclude coworkers, and don't mention where you work, there is probably no way what you say as a regular person will ever rise to the level of "this guy's gotta go"
However, if you put the same suspect comment on your LinkedIn page it's a bit worse imo, because where you work is a much larger part of your identity on that site. Even though you're doing it in your private time, you're a little bit more connected to work even if you aren't an official representative of the company.
One of the problems, though, is that this makes it trivially easy to fire anyone at any time. Like I said, everyone is going to have some personal opinion or factor that someone else is going to think is terrible. So let's say I don't like you. No particular reason why, I just don't like you. I spend some time on Google and find out that you once posted something on a message board that could be maybe construed as racist if I squint at it really hard. Now I get to fire you for cause, right? Because we don't tolerate that behavior. Or maybe I find out that, ten years ago, you cheated on your girlfriend. We don't want to be associated with unfaithful guys, sorry.
There is no way to enforce a policy of "We can fire you for doing terrible things in your private life" that does not turn into "We can fire you for any reason at all and just make up some bullshit reason about how your behavior reflects poorly on our company." It also would completely invalidate the notion of protected classes. Right now, if you want to fire Ted for being black, you at least have to make up some bullshit papertrail to justify axing him. But now it's just, "Oh, Ted went to an Obama rally. I can't work anywhere with a Democrat. Fuck you, Ted."