So, the exclusion of the Crystal Tower from release to make it easier...they're not planning on taking it to Raid Finder levels of stupidity are they? Are they just tuning the normal version down a tiny bit and not crippling it so that "everyone can experience everything"?
From what I gathered, there will be 3 tiers-
Normal- Window licking easy since it'll be through the raid finder.
Hard- A bit challenging, prob need a group of friends to get through
Ultimate(Not sure if they are calling it that)- This is where you go to die.
Yea I'm not 100% on the last one but I kept hearing him mention about harder versions of dungeons and raid areas.
I think from the start of the game and the way everything has progressed, Yoshi-P wants players to enjoy all the content in the game.
Ugh. I hate when they do this. I like for my in game accomplishments to be recognizable, rather than just having a slightly different shade of armor than what some kid who just facerolled through the whole thing received.
edit: what I said here sounded really mean and I didn't intend for it to. i will work on rephrasing it or maybe not say anything at all.
Not really necessary. I'm sure it's you just calling me an elitist or something, which I am, and I have no problem with. I really enjoyed back in vanilla WoW when it could take you a couple of months just to get the proper gear to run MC. When purples were actually very, very rare outside of raids.
Well, not really an elitist, just someone who thinks that they can be special in an MMO if they put in more time or are more hardcore about it. You will never be special in an MMO, period, and people who put so much stock in trying to "be better" or "more elite" than other people in a video game of all things have a really skewed view of the world.
They also always use vanilla WoW as the holy grail, the untouchable reference of how it used to and should be forever and ever, amen, but that's also something that actual MMO purists laugh at. It's just really strange to see the smallest amount of "prestige" go to people's heads when they are nothing special at all, purple pixels or not.
what i didn't like was stuff being rare just cause. I played the shit out of PSO way back when and in the thousands of hours of grinding in that game i found 1 really rare thing. That's a stupid and insulting reward for a game with effectively four levels. The people that defended it would say "Rare is supposed to mean something", which i get but to a fucking point.
FFXIV Petra Ironheart Infinity Mog 21 and over Free Company Sargatanas Server. Recruitment currently closed.
what i didn't like was stuff being rare just cause. I played the shit out of PSO way back when and in the thousands of hours of grinding in that game i found 1 really rare thing. That's a stupid and insulting reward for a game with effectively four levels. The people that defended it would say "Rare is supposed to mean something", which i get but to a fucking point.
Exactly this. I never had an Enhancing Sword in FFXI because the damn thing that dropped it spawned every 21-24 hours and had a so-so rate. There's absolutely nothing about that that makes owning one special short of stupidity. It's not hard nor challenging; the only truly difficult part was getting the pull in the first place. It's like lotto tickets, winning just often enough to keep suckers drawn in with the occasional fix.
Games of any genre can't afford to be really stingy with rarity anymore. At least not like they used to be.
PSO is a good example because when it came out it was virtually the only place you could possibly get the experience it produced. Sure it was derivative of Diablo and other games that came before, but it's exact blend of 3rd person action, randomness, and exploration/combat was wholly unique. Having absurdly low drop rates on rares was possible because you knew players would keep coming back to grind Ruins or Mines a few more times.
These days though, think about the diversity of excellent games that are of the same genres and gameplay styles that players have to choose from. Diablo 3 is another modern example of the predicament developers are in. There's a contingent of players who piss and moan about how easy it is to acquire really good gear, and how 'damaging' that is to the game. However, from the developers perspective, what can they do? If they wanted to make something Spread Needle (PSO) rare in a modern game, players would just say 'fuck it', really quick, and go play Torchlight 2 or any number of other loot crawlers. WoW is a good comparison too, because as much as some players piss and moan about LFR, it is exactly what WoW had to do in order to stay in any way relevant in the face of countless MMO's that produced a relatively identical (if not improved in some areas) experience for the player. They can't ever go back to a Vanilla gameplay experience (and thank fucking god) because if you think they're leaking players now, can you imagine if your average player now couldn't access all the content they can with LFR? Someone might feel like access to content/gear in LFR hurts the game, but not only does it not, it is protecting the game from the onslaught of other MMO's.
No one MMO is, or will ever be, a WoW killer, but the sheer number of MMO's that do what WoW does at least as good as WoW does it is what is the 'WoW killer'. The same thing that made Diablo 3 far less popular (in persistence of playerbase and critically; certainly not in sales which it has done astounding) than Diablo 2 isn't the changes they made to the gameplay formula, but the ready access players have to games that have a similar, identical, or better gameplay experience for the same type of game. Back to PSO again, if today they had the sort of drop rates they did back then, does anyone honestly thing players at large would continue to farm it, or would they just go 'fuck this, I could go play any number of other games that aren't being dicks that are just as fun'.
Plus, related and kind of an aside, those sort of rare things, IMO anyway, shouldn't because of some RNG but should be because of the gameplay experience they produce. Spread Needle would have been worthless if it didn't produce a unique experience. If it was just the top tier, numbers wise, of a series of weapons that did the same damn thing, not nearly as many players would have sought it; it was the fact that it did something wholly unique and desirable, that changed the gameplay experience to a degree that made it wanted by everyone.
That, to me, should be the goal of rarity. Not prestige, but the experience. Players shouldn't be forced to 'grind' anything for a numbers race, if you're gonna put something behind a barrier, it better be something completely different. Take the Kraken Club in XI; it could be abused to be more powerful in certain circumstances, but on its face it wasn't really better than many other things. But what it did was something different than most every other weapon in the game at the time. And that change of gameplay was sought, not necessarily the number munching. Sure, that can be part of it, but its just less and less of a driver of playtime by players anymore. Even WoW has seeming realized this with more and more higher end gear being less a pure numbers game and more unique effects that aren't necessarily reliable but produce something different that can be desired.
But at the same time, barrier or not, I think that most everything should be in some way acquirable by the playerbase at large. I know that's controversial and debatable; but it's just how I feel. It's fine to make the limited duration of availability (Gobbue is a good example, or even Legacy status), as long as everyone had access to it when it was there. EDIT: to be clear, I'm not saying all things should be trivial to acquire; I just think that they should still be accessable to everyone via whatever means; even if it means a 'lower tier' version of an item like WoW does with LFR, or alternate means of acquisition, i.e. 'raiders' can get it normally, but 'non-raiders' have to grind out a currency to buy said thing.
/book
tl;dr stuff
EDITx2: Bleh, I just realized I didn't really mention XIV much at all. Taking into account everything I just said, I think the course they're taking with almost everything in XIV is great. Multiple tiers of high end content is always good, multiple levels of content like Primals so everyone can and will see it, is great. Story driven quests that you want to do like XI is IMO the best. Having veteran type rewards be both immediately accessible and universal is the way to go. A new player a year from now will see current players with stuff that they know they can get simply by playing, and it can and will drive some to keep subscribing to get a Arhiman mount, etc. That is good.
I really try not to fall into a "YoshiP can do no wrong" mindset but man, the man and his team make it hard to not feel that way. It's rare that you see a group of devs so open and honest about their design, desires and philosophies and not only aren't afraid to learn from others, but humble enough to actively seek inspiration from games that already do things well. I know this has all been said a million times by a million people, but every time I read a live letter or developers blog from the XIV team it's like I'm reading my own thoughts.
And that's one of the major reasons I'm so damn excited for launch, for a game that ultimately is derivative and doesn't really do anything unique or new. It just does what it does so damn well, and the people behind it are people that I feel like I can trust. Not to get too dramatic but it's how I used to feel about the developers at Blizzard, but I feel like they rely too much on metrics and statistics to make gameplay decisions anymore, that they design the game around maintaining subscribers instead of maintaining subscribers by designing a fun game.
So, the exclusion of the Crystal Tower from release to make it easier...they're not planning on taking it to Raid Finder levels of stupidity are they? Are they just tuning the normal version down a tiny bit and not crippling it so that "everyone can experience everything"?
From what I gathered, there will be 3 tiers-
Normal- Window licking easy since it'll be through the raid finder.
Hard- A bit challenging, prob need a group of friends to get through
Ultimate(Not sure if they are calling it that)- This is where you go to die.
Yea I'm not 100% on the last one but I kept hearing him mention about harder versions of dungeons and raid areas.
I think from the start of the game and the way everything has progressed, Yoshi-P wants players to enjoy all the content in the game.
Ugh. I hate when they do this. I like for my in game accomplishments to be recognizable, rather than just having a slightly different shade of armor than what some kid who just facerolled through the whole thing received.
edit: what I said here sounded really mean and I didn't intend for it to. i will work on rephrasing it or maybe not say anything at all.
Not really necessary. I'm sure it's you just calling me an elitist or something, which I am, and I have no problem with. I really enjoyed back in vanilla WoW when it could take you a couple of months just to get the proper gear to run MC. When purples were actually very, very rare outside of raids.
Well, not really an elitist, just someone who thinks that they can be special in an MMO if they put in more time or are more hardcore about it. You will never be special in an MMO, period, and people who put so much stock in trying to "be better" or "more elite" than other people in a video game of all things have a really skewed view of the world.
They also always use vanilla WoW as the holy grail, the untouchable reference of how it used to and should be forever and ever, amen, but that's also something that actual MMO purists laugh at. It's just really strange to see the smallest amount of "prestige" go to people's heads when they are nothing special at all, purple pixels or not.
Yes, thank you for trying to make yourself feel better than me. Congrats.
Here's the thing, video games are actually entrenched in an world of achievements and prestige. Notice there are people making a living off of being the best at what they do in video games (FPS? PVP? RTS? Yep). Right, I just invalidated your entire first paragraph. Now, moving on...
So...the second paragraph just got goosed as well.
It's a game. A sport. A past time. A PRIDE for a lot of people. And those who put the real time, the skill, and the dedication in, should be rewarded with more than a different color skin than those kids who do raid finder and just press the 1 key in alternate with 2 every 5 seconds without moving their toon.
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
Games of any genre can't afford to be really stingy with rarity anymore. At least not like they used to be.
PSO is a good example because when it came out it was virtually the only place you could possibly get the experience it produced. Sure it was derivative of Diablo and other games that came before, but it's exact blend of 3rd person action, randomness, and exploration/combat was wholly unique. Having absurdly low drop rates on rares was possible because you knew players would keep coming back to grind Ruins or Mines a few more times.
It'd be GREAT example...if anyone cared about a terrible designed barely MMO.
RNG and rarity is EXACTLY what keep people coming back. There's this thing...called Gambler's Anon... ; )
Anyone who gives a shit about who is a serious badass player will know what that different shade of armor means and care.
Anyone who doesn't will enjoy their own shade of armor and be happy with it.
Higher difficulty versions should maybe look a bit more unique, but let's be realistic: it's not about the skill, it's about putting it in everyone's face.
edit: I mean, let's look at this in the context of real world competition: Olympic medals aren't exactly a huge visual change from field day medals.
double edit: Also, bragging about being an elitist is pretty autistic, since any reasonable person knows you can be competitive and take competition seriously without coming across as/being a dick that looks down on people that don't.
Kamar on
+9
FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
Yeah the sheer fact that you constantly refer to people who don't enjoy games at the same obsessive level as you do as "kids" and then try to tell someone else they're trying to make themselves seem better than you is just too funny for words. My whole thing is, you can do whatever you want and try to be as unique and have the best pixels and whatever else. Do what makes you happy. But, in the process of doing that, you're shitting on other people who are trying to have fun as well, which is not okay. I realize it's the internet and you can act as smug as you want, but at the end of the day, you're the one who thinks he's better than other people because you earned different color pixels and you think everyone who isn't playing at your level is a kid. Could not possibly be more euphoric internet goose if you tried.
Are you the magic man?
+14
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
I can't seem to speak in Raidcall, don't know why.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
And other people (like, the other 90% of the playerbase) want to be able to experience more of the content in a game that they're paying for on a monthly basis without having to become PhDs in a videogame.
I used to be a "hardcore" raider in WoW. I get it. It's not for me anymore, and I don't really care either way. I just don't really understand multiple difficulty tiers not being the perfect solution to this problem (hardcore raiders get their challenge, "casuals" get to play the whole game). It feels less like proving/knowing you're better at the game than most people (because really, heroic modes should be perfectly fine for that) and more like wanting to make sure other people know you're better than them. Which seems...kind of petty and pointless.
Hahaha get a load of this guy who thinks anyone ever gave a shit about anything done in mmo's. World firsts and WoW arena are even less relevant than pro fps and pro fighting games and those are already bottom of the barrel. Big grats to the guys who tricked sponsors into thinking they matter though.
I've done hard modes, "kid". They don't make you special. They are fun as hell though, and that should be reason enough to do them, not lording it over the plebes.
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
+1
ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
You simply don't find pro players talking down rec leagues in most sports
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
There's nothing wrong with caring (I watch a ton of e-sports personally). But people very obviously do not care about mmo's specifically. Right now there are about 3000 people watching streams on arena junkies, while the top lol streamer on his lonesome has 3 times that many.
Hmm I don't think there's much I can add since a good amount has been said already, but I can add a different take on getting that awesome status by being good! I'd say you don't need the color pixels or something special to say your better than everyone else! What ya need to be is just plain good to the point where people ask you for help on improving their own game. Then you need to be nice, and really try hard in your attempt to make them better. I think that is far more flattering than some status item, word of mouth reputation is far cooler than a medal. And quite frankly, too, nothing else can really attest to your mastery of something than being able to improve someone else's play - without being a dick about it.
Just my opinion on the whole leaving your mark in a game cause you want to be noticed.
FFXIV Character: Sionnach Rua on Sargantanas. Join us on Ghost in the Linkshell! The company site is: gitl.enjin.com
For me MMOs have always been about reputation. I could care less about what gear I or others have, it's just nice to be known as "That nice guy who can tank really well!", or "That guy is always doing fun stuff in chat". Gameplay is what the car is made of and community is what drives it.
While I appreciate the desire to prove your worth to other players, having higher numbers on your polygons is just a means to expanding your ability to prove yourself as a player. A lot of the time the numbers are taken at face value in spite of the player.
Also what Sionnach said.
And, I was very close to re-installing wow to get my fix, but I think I'll just boot up Tera until next weekend.
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
The vast majority of those players just being wrote off as elitists are only going to have a problem if you are dragging down the rest of the group in a significant way. Better yet, ignoring or being hostile to any kind of assistance. I'm really just talking about the basics here like assisting or removing that debuff that is about the wipe the raid.
Really, those aren't unrealistic expectations when you are already wearing raid gear. This is coming from the GM/Raid leader perspective. I spent most of my time assisting other players perform their role.
+1
ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
There's nothing wrong with caring (I watch a ton of e-sports personally). But people very obviously do not care about mmo's specifically. Right now there are about 3000 people watching streams on arena junkies, while the top lol streamer on his lonesome has 3 times that many.
and your average LCS regular season match has 15 times that
For me MMOs have always been about reputation. I could care less about what gear I or others have, it's just nice to be known as "That nice guy who can tank really well!", or "That guy is always doing fun stuff in chat". Gameplay is what the car is made of and community is what drives it.
While I appreciate the desire to prove your worth to other players, having higher numbers on your polygons is just a means to expanding your ability to prove yourself as a player. A lot of the time the numbers are taken at face value in spite of the player.
Also what Sionnach said.
And, I was very close to re-installing wow to get my fix, but I think I'll just boot up Tera until next weekend.
I know I idealize FFXI probably too much, that the vast majority of people don't have as fond of views and memories of it as I do; but I just want to say this.
Despite a few years of overbearing and off-putting elitism by a segment of the playerbase that turned off a lot of more casual potential players to the game; the sort of system that ended up in the game regarding players reputations had virtually nothing to do with the gear you had or the raids you did. Because of the nature of the game (and for various reasons I think XIV will be the same, or at least similar), you tended to play with the same people a lot, through the course of leveling up so many jobs, always having the same name, no real alts to speak of to hide behind. So you earned a reputation, for better or worse, and that was how players viewed you. Whether you were in +2 Empyrean gear or Curor bought meh gear, your name is what got you into groups, or got your whispers ignored. There are players who's name I still remember when I log on now, that clearly other people do to. Over the course of several years, there are certain players that will be straight up ignored by alliances because they all know that player, their reputation, and know that inviting them is bringing more trouble than it's worth.
Obviously this isn't perfect; if someone starts playing young and/or stupid, they could make a bad name for themselves, wise up, be better, but they've already got that black mark. There are ways to dig your way out of the hole though, so in general if I see someone still shunned after years it is probably for good reason. But it's hard work.
My point being, I agree, reputation can be earned via acquisition of rare stuff and doing top tier content; however if you are mistaking the fact that you have that really pretty gear with the fact that people actually give a shit about you, you are sorely mistaken. It's in the doing the content, the interaction with others that makes people actually care about who you are, and remember your character name, remember who you are.
In WoW I have more people on my ignore list that have incredible gear than players who have shit. I would rather chat with someone playing a bit subpar than the shithead bitching that the run is going to slow for them and their epics. When I see people with better gear than me, it's not them I aspire to. I may want some of the gear that they have, but that gear says nothing about the player themselves. A hardcore raid guild that is known for being assholes can have the best gear in the damn game, but they're not praised because they're good raiders, they're shunned by everyone else because of their behavior. They mistake their exclusiveness with being better, being elite, but the truth is that they're exclusive because no one else wants them around.
EDIT: To be clear, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with aspiring for the best gear, for the hardest content, or aspiring to be known. That's fine. Great. You want to be the Michael Jordan of XIV; go for it. But don't feel like once you get there, if you ever get there, it's yours and no one else should get it after that. Michael Jordan dominating the NBA didn't mean there weren't other great players, other great teams; he didn't win those championships alone and despite his skill he is still a impressively nice and humble guy. Also, regarding 'tiers' of content, the fact that the NBA is the elite of basketball doesn't mean their aren't lower tier leagues, pick up games, high school teams etc. Just because there are people that are shoulders above ( ) the rest of the people playing the sport doesn't actually take anything away from anyone else who wants to play casually, seriously, or strive themselves for that height. And conversely, just because some kids are playing some pick-up on the playground doesn't mean that the games and accomplishments of the professionals is hurt, effected and changed. In fact, it should be endearing to know that people are below you striving to reach you, that you are a goal; but the danger is letting it go to your head and instead of reaching a hand out to help them or guide them, you're pushing them down and keeping them away from what you have.
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
And other people (like, the other 90% of the playerbase) want to be able to experience more of the content in a game that they're paying for on a monthly basis without having to become PhDs in a videogame.
I used to be a "hardcore" raider in WoW. I get it. It's not for me anymore, and I don't really care either way. I just don't really understand multiple difficulty tiers not being the perfect solution to this problem (hardcore raiders get their challenge, "casuals" get to play the whole game). It feels less like proving/knowing you're better at the game than most people (because really, heroic modes should be perfectly fine for that) and more like wanting to make sure other people know you're better than them. Which seems...kind of petty and pointless.
No, I'm just saying, different rewards for different levels of skill and time invested beyond a recolored skin. I'm honestly really surprised at the amount of "It's a video game! Who cares, loser?!?" that I'm getting in here.
EDIT: To be clear, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with aspiring for the best gear, for the hardest content, or aspiring to be known. That's fine. Great. You want to be the Michael Jordan of XIV; go for it. But don't feel like once you get there, if you ever get there, it's yours and no one else should get it after that. Michael Jordan dominating the NBA didn't mean there weren't other great players, other great teams; he didn't win those championships alone and despite his skill he is still a impressively nice and humble guy. Also, regarding 'tiers' of content, the fact that the NBA is the elite of basketball doesn't mean their aren't lower tier leagues, pick up games, high school teams etc. Just because there are people that are shoulders above ( ) the rest of the people playing the sport doesn't actually take anything away from anyone else who wants to play casually, seriously, or strive themselves for that height. And conversely, just because some kids are playing some pick-up on the playground doesn't mean that the games and accomplishments of the professionals is hurt, effected and changed. In fact, it should be endearing to know that people are below you striving to reach you, that you are a goal; but the danger is letting it go to your head and instead of reaching a hand out to help them or guide them, you're pushing them down and keeping them away from what you have.
This analogy makes no sense. You're comparing Michael Jordan with some kids at the park playing a pick up game. Yeah, Jordan had a team, and they were with him at the same level of skill. Those people who are "shoulders above" others get definite rewards and prestige over those are just shooting hoops in their driveway.
Esh on
+1
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I dunno, plenty of other objectively pointless skill-based activities get recognition and whatnot, i.e. professional sports, so I don't see anything wrong with caring about the things.
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
I have zero attitude towards less skilled players. I just don't think they should receive the same rewards.
Yeah the sheer fact that you constantly refer to people who don't enjoy games at the same obsessive level as you do as "kids" and then try to tell someone else they're trying to make themselves seem better than you is just too funny for words. My whole thing is, you can do whatever you want and try to be as unique and have the best pixels and whatever else. Do what makes you happy. But, in the process of doing that, you're shitting on other people who are trying to have fun as well, which is not okay. I realize it's the internet and you can act as smug as you want, but at the end of the day, you're the one who thinks he's better than other people because you earned different color pixels and you think everyone who isn't playing at your level is a kid. Could not possibly be more euphoric internet goose if you tried.
Ugh. Kids was just a term I used, I wasn't like "LOLZ! ONLY CHILDREN PLAY BADLY!!!". I think you way misconstrued me there. Speaking of shitting on people and and acting like a smug goose, take a look at the way you just tried to lord yourself over me and make yourself look like the better man on here. Pot. Kettle.
Esh on
+1
ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
And other people (like, the other 90% of the playerbase) want to be able to experience more of the content in a game that they're paying for on a monthly basis without having to become PhDs in a videogame.
I used to be a "hardcore" raider in WoW. I get it. It's not for me anymore, and I don't really care either way. I just don't really understand multiple difficulty tiers not being the perfect solution to this problem (hardcore raiders get their challenge, "casuals" get to play the whole game). It feels less like proving/knowing you're better at the game than most people (because really, heroic modes should be perfectly fine for that) and more like wanting to make sure other people know you're better than them. Which seems...kind of petty and pointless.
No, I'm just saying, different rewards for different levels of skill and time invested beyond a recolored skin. I'm honestly really surprised at the amount of "It's a video game! Who cares, loser?!?" that I'm getting in here.
do you have anything more concrete than a gut feeling on this being the case or not in regards to FFXIV:ARR? cause I haven't seen anything specific on rewards for end-game content, let alone what differences exist between the tiers other than Yoshi-P stating that they would in fact be different.
As long as the higher tiers are not along the progression path I'll be happy. I really did not like how they did that in swtor when they made the challenge mode "nightmare" part of the gearing path
FFXIV Character: Sionnach Rua on Sargantanas. Join us on Ghost in the Linkshell! The company site is: gitl.enjin.com
I just make random noises... mreh
0
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
And other people (like, the other 90% of the playerbase) want to be able to experience more of the content in a game that they're paying for on a monthly basis without having to become PhDs in a videogame.
I used to be a "hardcore" raider in WoW. I get it. It's not for me anymore, and I don't really care either way. I just don't really understand multiple difficulty tiers not being the perfect solution to this problem (hardcore raiders get their challenge, "casuals" get to play the whole game). It feels less like proving/knowing you're better at the game than most people (because really, heroic modes should be perfectly fine for that) and more like wanting to make sure other people know you're better than them. Which seems...kind of petty and pointless.
No, I'm just saying, different rewards for different levels of skill and time invested beyond a recolored skin. I'm honestly really surprised at the amount of "It's a video game! Who cares, loser?!?" that I'm getting in here.
do you have anything more concrete than a gut feeling on this being the case or not in regards to FFXIV:ARR? cause I haven't seen anything specific on rewards for end-game content, let alone what differences exist between the tiers other than Yoshi-P stating that they would in fact be different.
I'd be surprised if they designed completely different models of armor for the "same" content at different difficulty levels.
So the only thing that actually matters is the model that they give the armor? As long as the armor model for your super difficult raid is different than the armor model for easy-mode or normal-mode raids, everything's cool?
why can't the more challenging modes give nothing more than the satisfaction than "I did it!" ?
Because Dark Souls is already a game?
Are you saying that everything shouldn't be Dark Souls?
fuck gendered marketing
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
There were a few things said in the live letter from the 8th that have given me the impression that you shouldn't be worrying about this, Esh, but I can't remember them exactly and I'm just not invested enough in arguing with you to hunt through a three hour video to find them
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I just make random noises... mreh
Well, not really an elitist, just someone who thinks that they can be special in an MMO if they put in more time or are more hardcore about it. You will never be special in an MMO, period, and people who put so much stock in trying to "be better" or "more elite" than other people in a video game of all things have a really skewed view of the world.
They also always use vanilla WoW as the holy grail, the untouchable reference of how it used to and should be forever and ever, amen, but that's also something that actual MMO purists laugh at. It's just really strange to see the smallest amount of "prestige" go to people's heads when they are nothing special at all, purple pixels or not.
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Exactly this. I never had an Enhancing Sword in FFXI because the damn thing that dropped it spawned every 21-24 hours and had a so-so rate. There's absolutely nothing about that that makes owning one special short of stupidity. It's not hard nor challenging; the only truly difficult part was getting the pull in the first place. It's like lotto tickets, winning just often enough to keep suckers drawn in with the occasional fix.
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Ghost in the Linkshell Item Requisitioning
Let me know you are from PA, otherwise I will likely ignore you.
PSO is a good example because when it came out it was virtually the only place you could possibly get the experience it produced. Sure it was derivative of Diablo and other games that came before, but it's exact blend of 3rd person action, randomness, and exploration/combat was wholly unique. Having absurdly low drop rates on rares was possible because you knew players would keep coming back to grind Ruins or Mines a few more times.
These days though, think about the diversity of excellent games that are of the same genres and gameplay styles that players have to choose from. Diablo 3 is another modern example of the predicament developers are in. There's a contingent of players who piss and moan about how easy it is to acquire really good gear, and how 'damaging' that is to the game. However, from the developers perspective, what can they do? If they wanted to make something Spread Needle (PSO) rare in a modern game, players would just say 'fuck it', really quick, and go play Torchlight 2 or any number of other loot crawlers. WoW is a good comparison too, because as much as some players piss and moan about LFR, it is exactly what WoW had to do in order to stay in any way relevant in the face of countless MMO's that produced a relatively identical (if not improved in some areas) experience for the player. They can't ever go back to a Vanilla gameplay experience (and thank fucking god) because if you think they're leaking players now, can you imagine if your average player now couldn't access all the content they can with LFR? Someone might feel like access to content/gear in LFR hurts the game, but not only does it not, it is protecting the game from the onslaught of other MMO's.
No one MMO is, or will ever be, a WoW killer, but the sheer number of MMO's that do what WoW does at least as good as WoW does it is what is the 'WoW killer'. The same thing that made Diablo 3 far less popular (in persistence of playerbase and critically; certainly not in sales which it has done astounding) than Diablo 2 isn't the changes they made to the gameplay formula, but the ready access players have to games that have a similar, identical, or better gameplay experience for the same type of game. Back to PSO again, if today they had the sort of drop rates they did back then, does anyone honestly thing players at large would continue to farm it, or would they just go 'fuck this, I could go play any number of other games that aren't being dicks that are just as fun'.
Plus, related and kind of an aside, those sort of rare things, IMO anyway, shouldn't because of some RNG but should be because of the gameplay experience they produce. Spread Needle would have been worthless if it didn't produce a unique experience. If it was just the top tier, numbers wise, of a series of weapons that did the same damn thing, not nearly as many players would have sought it; it was the fact that it did something wholly unique and desirable, that changed the gameplay experience to a degree that made it wanted by everyone.
That, to me, should be the goal of rarity. Not prestige, but the experience. Players shouldn't be forced to 'grind' anything for a numbers race, if you're gonna put something behind a barrier, it better be something completely different. Take the Kraken Club in XI; it could be abused to be more powerful in certain circumstances, but on its face it wasn't really better than many other things. But what it did was something different than most every other weapon in the game at the time. And that change of gameplay was sought, not necessarily the number munching. Sure, that can be part of it, but its just less and less of a driver of playtime by players anymore. Even WoW has seeming realized this with more and more higher end gear being less a pure numbers game and more unique effects that aren't necessarily reliable but produce something different that can be desired.
But at the same time, barrier or not, I think that most everything should be in some way acquirable by the playerbase at large. I know that's controversial and debatable; but it's just how I feel. It's fine to make the limited duration of availability (Gobbue is a good example, or even Legacy status), as long as everyone had access to it when it was there. EDIT: to be clear, I'm not saying all things should be trivial to acquire; I just think that they should still be accessable to everyone via whatever means; even if it means a 'lower tier' version of an item like WoW does with LFR, or alternate means of acquisition, i.e. 'raiders' can get it normally, but 'non-raiders' have to grind out a currency to buy said thing.
/book
tl;dr stuff
EDITx2: Bleh, I just realized I didn't really mention XIV much at all. Taking into account everything I just said, I think the course they're taking with almost everything in XIV is great. Multiple tiers of high end content is always good, multiple levels of content like Primals so everyone can and will see it, is great. Story driven quests that you want to do like XI is IMO the best. Having veteran type rewards be both immediately accessible and universal is the way to go. A new player a year from now will see current players with stuff that they know they can get simply by playing, and it can and will drive some to keep subscribing to get a Arhiman mount, etc. That is good.
I really try not to fall into a "YoshiP can do no wrong" mindset but man, the man and his team make it hard to not feel that way. It's rare that you see a group of devs so open and honest about their design, desires and philosophies and not only aren't afraid to learn from others, but humble enough to actively seek inspiration from games that already do things well. I know this has all been said a million times by a million people, but every time I read a live letter or developers blog from the XIV team it's like I'm reading my own thoughts.
And that's one of the major reasons I'm so damn excited for launch, for a game that ultimately is derivative and doesn't really do anything unique or new. It just does what it does so damn well, and the people behind it are people that I feel like I can trust. Not to get too dramatic but it's how I used to feel about the developers at Blizzard, but I feel like they rely too much on metrics and statistics to make gameplay decisions anymore, that they design the game around maintaining subscribers instead of maintaining subscribers by designing a fun game.
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Yes, thank you for trying to make yourself feel better than me. Congrats.
Here's the thing, video games are actually entrenched in an world of achievements and prestige. Notice there are people making a living off of being the best at what they do in video games (FPS? PVP? RTS? Yep). Right, I just invalidated your entire first paragraph. Now, moving on...
So...the second paragraph just got goosed as well.
It's a game. A sport. A past time. A PRIDE for a lot of people. And those who put the real time, the skill, and the dedication in, should be rewarded with more than a different color skin than those kids who do raid finder and just press the 1 key in alternate with 2 every 5 seconds without moving their toon.
Maybe I'm crazy? But I love challenge at the top end without having to click over to "Heroic Mode". I love actually having to progress, learn, and work for my accomplishments. I think there should be a a definite line drawn between those who play well, put the time in, and accomplish what others can't and those whose can't and don't.
It'd be GREAT example...if anyone cared about a terrible designed barely MMO.
RNG and rarity is EXACTLY what keep people coming back. There's this thing...called Gambler's Anon... ; )
Anyone who doesn't will enjoy their own shade of armor and be happy with it.
Higher difficulty versions should maybe look a bit more unique, but let's be realistic: it's not about the skill, it's about putting it in everyone's face.
edit: I mean, let's look at this in the context of real world competition: Olympic medals aren't exactly a huge visual change from field day medals.
double edit: Also, bragging about being an elitist is pretty autistic, since any reasonable person knows you can be competitive and take competition seriously without coming across as/being a dick that looks down on people that don't.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
And other people (like, the other 90% of the playerbase) want to be able to experience more of the content in a game that they're paying for on a monthly basis without having to become PhDs in a videogame.
I used to be a "hardcore" raider in WoW. I get it. It's not for me anymore, and I don't really care either way. I just don't really understand multiple difficulty tiers not being the perfect solution to this problem (hardcore raiders get their challenge, "casuals" get to play the whole game). It feels less like proving/knowing you're better at the game than most people (because really, heroic modes should be perfectly fine for that) and more like wanting to make sure other people know you're better than them. Which seems...kind of petty and pointless.
Hahaha get a load of this guy who thinks anyone ever gave a shit about anything done in mmo's. World firsts and WoW arena are even less relevant than pro fps and pro fighting games and those are already bottom of the barrel. Big grats to the guys who tricked sponsors into thinking they matter though.
I've done hard modes, "kid". They don't make you special. They are fun as hell though, and that should be reason enough to do them, not lording it over the plebes.
LoL: failboattootoot
It's the attitude towards people that don't take it so seriously that makes gaming elitists annoying.
You simply don't find pro players talking down rec leagues in most sports
There's nothing wrong with caring (I watch a ton of e-sports personally). But people very obviously do not care about mmo's specifically. Right now there are about 3000 people watching streams on arena junkies, while the top lol streamer on his lonesome has 3 times that many.
LoL: failboattootoot
Just my opinion on the whole leaving your mark in a game cause you want to be noticed.
I just make random noises... mreh
While I appreciate the desire to prove your worth to other players, having higher numbers on your polygons is just a means to expanding your ability to prove yourself as a player. A lot of the time the numbers are taken at face value in spite of the player.
Also what Sionnach said.
And, I was very close to re-installing wow to get my fix, but I think I'll just boot up Tera until next weekend.
The vast majority of those players just being wrote off as elitists are only going to have a problem if you are dragging down the rest of the group in a significant way. Better yet, ignoring or being hostile to any kind of assistance. I'm really just talking about the basics here like assisting or removing that debuff that is about the wipe the raid.
Really, those aren't unrealistic expectations when you are already wearing raid gear. This is coming from the GM/Raid leader perspective. I spent most of my time assisting other players perform their role.
and your average LCS regular season match has 15 times that
The numbers explode if you start looking at Korea
I know I idealize FFXI probably too much, that the vast majority of people don't have as fond of views and memories of it as I do; but I just want to say this.
Despite a few years of overbearing and off-putting elitism by a segment of the playerbase that turned off a lot of more casual potential players to the game; the sort of system that ended up in the game regarding players reputations had virtually nothing to do with the gear you had or the raids you did. Because of the nature of the game (and for various reasons I think XIV will be the same, or at least similar), you tended to play with the same people a lot, through the course of leveling up so many jobs, always having the same name, no real alts to speak of to hide behind. So you earned a reputation, for better or worse, and that was how players viewed you. Whether you were in +2 Empyrean gear or Curor bought meh gear, your name is what got you into groups, or got your whispers ignored. There are players who's name I still remember when I log on now, that clearly other people do to. Over the course of several years, there are certain players that will be straight up ignored by alliances because they all know that player, their reputation, and know that inviting them is bringing more trouble than it's worth.
Obviously this isn't perfect; if someone starts playing young and/or stupid, they could make a bad name for themselves, wise up, be better, but they've already got that black mark. There are ways to dig your way out of the hole though, so in general if I see someone still shunned after years it is probably for good reason. But it's hard work.
My point being, I agree, reputation can be earned via acquisition of rare stuff and doing top tier content; however if you are mistaking the fact that you have that really pretty gear with the fact that people actually give a shit about you, you are sorely mistaken. It's in the doing the content, the interaction with others that makes people actually care about who you are, and remember your character name, remember who you are.
In WoW I have more people on my ignore list that have incredible gear than players who have shit. I would rather chat with someone playing a bit subpar than the shithead bitching that the run is going to slow for them and their epics. When I see people with better gear than me, it's not them I aspire to. I may want some of the gear that they have, but that gear says nothing about the player themselves. A hardcore raid guild that is known for being assholes can have the best gear in the damn game, but they're not praised because they're good raiders, they're shunned by everyone else because of their behavior. They mistake their exclusiveness with being better, being elite, but the truth is that they're exclusive because no one else wants them around.
EDIT: To be clear, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with aspiring for the best gear, for the hardest content, or aspiring to be known. That's fine. Great. You want to be the Michael Jordan of XIV; go for it. But don't feel like once you get there, if you ever get there, it's yours and no one else should get it after that. Michael Jordan dominating the NBA didn't mean there weren't other great players, other great teams; he didn't win those championships alone and despite his skill he is still a impressively nice and humble guy. Also, regarding 'tiers' of content, the fact that the NBA is the elite of basketball doesn't mean their aren't lower tier leagues, pick up games, high school teams etc. Just because there are people that are shoulders above (
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
No, I'm just saying, different rewards for different levels of skill and time invested beyond a recolored skin. I'm honestly really surprised at the amount of "It's a video game! Who cares, loser?!?" that I'm getting in here.
This analogy makes no sense. You're comparing Michael Jordan with some kids at the park playing a pick up game. Yeah, Jordan had a team, and they were with him at the same level of skill. Those people who are "shoulders above" others get definite rewards and prestige over those are just shooting hoops in their driveway.
I have zero attitude towards less skilled players. I just don't think they should receive the same rewards.
Ugh. Kids was just a term I used, I wasn't like "LOLZ! ONLY CHILDREN PLAY BADLY!!!". I think you way misconstrued me there. Speaking of shitting on people and and acting like a smug goose, take a look at the way you just tried to lord yourself over me and make yourself look like the better man on here. Pot. Kettle.
do you have anything more concrete than a gut feeling on this being the case or not in regards to FFXIV:ARR? cause I haven't seen anything specific on rewards for end-game content, let alone what differences exist between the tiers other than Yoshi-P stating that they would in fact be different.
I just make random noises... mreh
I'd be surprised if they designed completely different models of armor for the "same" content at different difficulty levels.
I just make random noises... mreh
There is no way to answer that questions that does not delve deep into the psyche of humankind and the insecurities found within.
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Because Dark Souls is already a game?
just not because of their loots in a mmo
Hmm.. have they said what the difference between digital and physical CE is, anyways?
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Digital CE gets all the Digital CE items, while Physical CE gets all the digital CE items and the physical CE items.
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Specifically:
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
note that if you have the 1.0 CE you get the digital CE items too
Are you saying that everything shouldn't be Dark Souls?
I'm just saying that I don't think my blood pressure could handle a Dark Souls MMO.