Smash doesn't really scratch the itch like other fighting games do. Can't get insane corner lockdowns going.
Also the inputs in that game are plenty challenging because of how many glitches you are abusing at the high end.
Edit: Chess is okay. Fencing is a lot more fun and scratches the controlling space and tempo itch very well, pretty simple inputs too :P. Too bad I can't fence anymore in rural Japan, and kendo does not agree with me because I have flat feet.
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Smash has some of the most inescapable "corner" pressure in the genre. You know how hard it is to get back onstage against a strong player?
I enjoy Go but individual games of it just take so long that I rarely have had the chance to get full games of it in. I guess asynchronous online play would be the easy answer to that.
Fair point about keeping someone from getting back on in Smash. But, it just feels different to me to keep someone away and edge hog as compared to keeping someone trapped in a corner. And I enjoy the feel of Smash less. Just a taste thing, not trying to talk smack on Smash.
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
I think it is a great idea to make a competently designed, accessible fighting game where execution is much simpler
But it's going be a totally different game, you're going to often run into the smash effect where system exploits that DO require execution can become the fundamental gameplay elements, and you're going to have to invent a lot of new depth for gameplay, because the richness of fighting games often springs from the systems that make them complex (frame traps vs throw techs, footsies and frame adv/disadv, etc)
Plus you have to come up with inputs that let players execute moves easily without executing moves accidentally, which is harder than it seems in fast, high-tension matches
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
Well go on, I wanna hear about the drama
First off, try to not read the comments, as they are a labyrinth in their own right. I will try to confine my comments exclusively to the OP.
Now, this is the guy who won CEO, and I will also say I have been a big supporter of his, and even took my Tekken characters from him as an inspiration.
Now he is saying that he didn't lose at EVO because of skill or because his opponents were better etc. No it's because he had to use a different pad.
Ok, fine, that would have been understandable, had EVO not already announced the ban on wireless controllers almost two months before the event itself. The onus is on the player to adapt to the previously stated ruleset. To state that you lost because of your failure to take this rule into account is unbecoming and shows a lack of maturity.
Further on, he blames TO's for not catering to the Tekken crowd for various reasons which he lists in the post. Again, I'm a smalltime TO, but all the reasons he gives come off as self-serving. Essentially, I feel that he has developed a large sense of entitlement, which some of the comments also stated. I have actually seen small flashes of this entitlement on previous dealings with him, but this current scenario is the most obvious example.
It is really disappointing coming from him, and it sets a very poor example for prospective players, as well as players like me who watched the match where he was eliminated. I expect FChamp and ChrisG to make excuses for their losses, but not this guy.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
In that article he specifically says that playing optimally is too hard
...
DUH.
You can't put out the same damage or move as quickly or keep yourself as safe as someone who has put in a shitload of practice? That's how it should be. You don't need FFF or korean backdashing to beat up your friends online. There are way simpler options.
Plus if you can't do cool looking shit in injustice or marvel, there is no hope for you.
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
Well go on, I wanna hear about the drama
First off, try to not read the comments, as they are a labyrinth in their own right. I will try to confine my comments exclusively to the OP.
Now, this is the guy who won CEO, and I will also say I have been a big supporter of his, and even took my Tekken characters from him as an inspiration.
Now he is saying that he didn't lose at EVO because of skill or because his opponents were better etc. No it's because he had to use a different pad.
Ok, fine, that would have been understandable, had EVO not already announced the ban on wireless controllers almost two months before the event itself. The onus is on the player to adapt to the previously stated ruleset. To state that you lost because of your failure to take this rule into account is unbecoming and shows a lack of maturity.
Further on, he blames TO's for not catering to the Tekken crowd for various reasons which he lists in the post. Again, I'm a smalltime TO, but all the reasons he gives come off as self-serving. Essentially, I feel that he has developed a large sense of entitlement, which some of the comments also stated. I have actually seen small flashes of this entitlement on previous dealings with him, but this current scenario is the most obvious example.
It is really disappointing coming from him, and it sets a very poor example for prospective players, as well as players like me who watched the match where he was eliminated. I expect FChamp and ChrisG to make excuses for their losses, but not this guy.
That's a closed group so I doubt anyone here can see the post, but I don't really feel this is big enough "drama" to lose respect for someone you use to hold in high regard. EVERY top player in EVERY game (americans anyway) make excuses about why they lost at some point, it's just par for the course. Not really fair to hold lil majin (pretty sure he won ceo?) to higher standards, for whatever reason.
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
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Baroque And RollEvery spark of friendship and loveWill die without a homeRegistered Userregular
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
Well go on, I wanna hear about the drama
First off, try to not read the comments, as they are a labyrinth in their own right. I will try to confine my comments exclusively to the OP.
Now, this is the guy who won CEO, and I will also say I have been a big supporter of his, and even took my Tekken characters from him as an inspiration.
Now he is saying that he didn't lose at EVO because of skill or because his opponents were better etc. No it's because he had to use a different pad.
Ok, fine, that would have been understandable, had EVO not already announced the ban on wireless controllers almost two months before the event itself. The onus is on the player to adapt to the previously stated ruleset. To state that you lost because of your failure to take this rule into account is unbecoming and shows a lack of maturity.
Further on, he blames TO's for not catering to the Tekken crowd for various reasons which he lists in the post. Again, I'm a smalltime TO, but all the reasons he gives come off as self-serving. Essentially, I feel that he has developed a large sense of entitlement, which some of the comments also stated. I have actually seen small flashes of this entitlement on previous dealings with him, but this current scenario is the most obvious example.
It is really disappointing coming from him, and it sets a very poor example for prospective players, as well as players like me who watched the match where he was eliminated. I expect FChamp and ChrisG to make excuses for their losses, but not this guy.
That's a closed group so I doubt anyone here can see the post, but I don't really feel this is big enough "drama" to lose respect for someone you use to hold in high regard. EVERY top player in EVERY game (americans anyway) make excuses about why they lost at some point, it's just par for the course. Not really fair to hold lil majin (pretty sure he won ceo?) to higher standards, for whatever reason.
That is an incredibly unfair assertion I do not feel you are qualified to make.
Diluvian and I were talking about the issue of making fighting games with easier move/combo execution, and while he admitted that it's probably possible to make that game and make it fun and good, it might not be nearly as fun to watch even if it's a very deep mental game. Because, like sports, we enjoy watching experts perform difficult feats of physical skill that require conditioning that we're not really willing to commit to.
I think that's interesting because it suggests that you have to balance spectacle with accessibility. That's a new kind of design consideration that is only now becoming an issue with streaming being so big and easy.
I am also concerned that all efforts at easier fighting games have been kind of wrongheaded - Smash was designed not to be competitive, which is unfortunate, I think.
I'd love to see an earnest attempt to make a competitive, deep fighter with one or two button inputs, designed to be its own game dependent on the mental and spatial skills rather than an "easier" SF clone or a party game. I don't know if it could be as good as a really technical game though.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
Diluvian and I were talking about the issue of making fighting games with easier move/combo execution, and while he admitted that it's probably possible to make that game and make it fun and good, it might not be nearly as fun to watch even if it's a very deep mental game. Because, like sports, we enjoy watching experts perform difficult feats of physical skill that require conditioning that we're not really willing to commit to.
I think that's interesting because it suggests that you have to balance spectacle with accessibility. That's a new kind of design consideration that is only now becoming an issue with streaming being so big and easy.
I am also concerned that all efforts at easier fighting games have been kind of wrongheaded - Smash was designed not to be competitive, which is unfortunate, I think.
I'd love to see an earnest attempt to make a competitive, deep fighter with one or two button inputs, designed to be its own game dependent on the mental and spatial skills rather than an "easier" SF clone or a party game. I don't know if it could be as good as a really technical game though.
It's worth noting here that a lot of competitive Brood War fans had the exact same problem with SC2, so balancing accessibility/spectacle is not just a theoretical problem but already a real-world one. I *think* (not positive, though I remember reading a quote along these lines) that Blizzard tried to shift away from accessibility with HotS.
As for fighting games...Hmm, how do I explain this. I really enjoy the execution aspect of fighting games. Any type of execution, whether it's links, cancels, or what have you. I like that you can be rewarded for practice. I really like that you can do something offline by yourself in training mode, just working on a basic aspect of your play, and have it actually make a significant impact in a real match. Being able to hit consecutive combos with more than 1 one-frame link in a real match, even online, is unbelievably rewarding (to me). So, for an easier, reduced-mechanics fighting game that is still deep and competitive, I think it's theoretically possible. But even if it was perfectly made, and a great game, I don't think I'd enjoy playing or watching it. Just not my style.
EDIT: Also, even if that theoretical game was so amazing that I got into it, I feel like there'd always be a voice in the back of my head saying something along the lines of "wouldn't this game be better with another layer of depth with more complicated inputs?"
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Baroque And RollEvery spark of friendship and loveWill die without a homeRegistered Userregular
And that's totally valid; I don't think we would want existing franchises to change that way. Execution is fun for a lot of people, to do and to watch.
There's probably room for a much more accessible game that won't scare off your friends with inputs, though, which could be a gateway drug as well.
There's probably room for a much more accessible game that won't scare off your friends with inputs, though, which could be a gateway drug as well.
I'm pretty sure Injustice is doing exactly that right now honestly.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
Yeah, for sure. Don't get me wrong, if such a game did come out, I'd definitely recommend all my friends to play it, especially since they are into fighting games but don't like them enough to want to work at them (yet). I'm just saying that personally, as an execution-minded player, I wouldn't really find a game like that appealing.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
The thing is though when people talk about execution I think what one has to take into mind is that there are different levels of difficulty and what some mean by easier or harder isn't uniform.
As for accessibility I look at it this way 95% of people who play fighters aren't going to travel to some highly competitive environment. Most will play with friends and online(where skill levels vary wildly).
So I think the SF4 level of easy to learn, hard to master works fine.
I think at the end of the day the issue is that there is a very strong sense of instant gratification entitlement that exists in a large subset of gamers. And I feel as soon as you tell people that any kind of work is involved in a game, execution or otherwise, they are turned off.
Not sure what you can do about it.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
There's probably room for a much more accessible game that won't scare off your friends with inputs, though, which could be a gateway drug as well.
I'm pretty sure Injustice is doing exactly that right now honestly.
Injustice isn't that accessible though, and there are some DUMB things in that game. I don't disagree that it's a gateway drug, but I don't think it's because it's more accessible mechanically. I think it's because they have a DC license.
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Baroque And RollEvery spark of friendship and loveWill die without a homeRegistered Userregular
Injustice is the easiest fighting game I've played in years with regards to execution.
There's probably room for a much more accessible game that won't scare off your friends with inputs, though, which could be a gateway drug as well.
I'm pretty sure Injustice is doing exactly that right now honestly.
Injustice still requires long combo strings and some solid time in practice mode though, if you want to play online.
It's definitely easier, though the zoning probably turns off a lot of new players.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Injustice was so easy that it kind of made me stop playing it, honestly.
I couldn't figure out exactly what I should be doing...but the dumb stuff I was doing worked perfectly fine and almost everything was a legit block string and/or low-risk.
I don't know why TTT2 just went downhill number wise, but after seeing some of the drama that went down right after EVO, I've lost some respect for people I held in high regard.
Well go on, I wanna hear about the drama
First off, try to not read the comments, as they are a labyrinth in their own right. I will try to confine my comments exclusively to the OP.
Now, this is the guy who won CEO, and I will also say I have been a big supporter of his, and even took my Tekken characters from him as an inspiration.
Now he is saying that he didn't lose at EVO because of skill or because his opponents were better etc. No it's because he had to use a different pad.
Ok, fine, that would have been understandable, had EVO not already announced the ban on wireless controllers almost two months before the event itself. The onus is on the player to adapt to the previously stated ruleset. To state that you lost because of your failure to take this rule into account is unbecoming and shows a lack of maturity.
Further on, he blames TO's for not catering to the Tekken crowd for various reasons which he lists in the post. Again, I'm a smalltime TO, but all the reasons he gives come off as self-serving. Essentially, I feel that he has developed a large sense of entitlement, which some of the comments also stated. I have actually seen small flashes of this entitlement on previous dealings with him, but this current scenario is the most obvious example.
It is really disappointing coming from him, and it sets a very poor example for prospective players, as well as players like me who watched the match where he was eliminated. I expect FChamp and ChrisG to make excuses for their losses, but not this guy.
Kor's Tekken Academy is a bit of a joke to the rest of the scene, and we try to distance ourselves from their drama.
They're the ones who wanted to boycott EVO because wireless pads weren't allowed and whined incessantly about it while the rest of us got adapters and adapted.
Injustice was so easy that it kind of made me stop playing it, honestly.
I couldn't figure out exactly what I should be doing...but the dumb stuff I was doing worked perfectly fine and almost everything was a legit block string and/or low-risk.
You must of played quite a few games before quitting to come to this conclusion, surely.
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
Well what I mean is combos in Injustice are comparatively the easiest of any modern fighter right now. In general there's very few complex motions for any kind of special (the wackiest I can think of is Harley's Play Doctor command), and the fact that there are dedicated zoners who can put in work means you don't even have to be that great at combos to have some success in that regard.
Obviously if you wanna be actually competent at the game you still need some lab time and practice in general but if I was gonna point new players somewhere to start it'd probably be there despite some of the game's shortcomings.
Injustice was so easy that it kind of made me stop playing it, honestly.
I couldn't figure out exactly what I should be doing...but the dumb stuff I was doing worked perfectly fine and almost everything was a legit block string and/or low-risk.
Injustice is dumb.
Proof: PR Rog in top 8 by mashing Killer Frost can-can kick combos
As I rookie myself I'd say that the problem with fighters is less the execution requirement and more the fact that (at least with SF4 and MvC3) the games themselves do a shitty job of teaching you how to play. Skullgirls actually has a halfway decent tutorial that walks you through the kind of stuff it expects you to do but even it's a little lacking. But both SF4 and Marvel just toss you a bunch of stuff and say "here you go, figure it out. Or don't, whatever." They expect you to already know how to play fighting games.
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And I missed the end of the last thread but if we patch marvel I'm going to cut some one
It needs a patch.
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
Smash doesn't really scratch the itch like other fighting games do. Can't get insane corner lockdowns going.
Also the inputs in that game are plenty challenging because of how many glitches you are abusing at the high end.
Edit: Chess is okay. Fencing is a lot more fun and scratches the controlling space and tempo itch very well, pretty simple inputs too :P. Too bad I can't fence anymore in rural Japan, and kendo does not agree with me because I have flat feet.
Smash has some of the most inescapable "corner" pressure in the genre. You know how hard it is to get back onstage against a strong player?
I enjoy Go but individual games of it just take so long that I rarely have had the chance to get full games of it in. I guess asynchronous online play would be the easy answer to that.
Fair point about keeping someone from getting back on in Smash. But, it just feels different to me to keep someone away and edge hog as compared to keeping someone trapped in a corner. And I enjoy the feel of Smash less. Just a taste thing, not trying to talk smack on Smash.
I just find stuff like this way more satisfying:
Though speaking of off putting input requirements...
Well go on, I wanna hear about the drama
Really missed the 3v3 team tournament format at Evo this year. P4A just isn't diverse enough to support it.
But it's going be a totally different game, you're going to often run into the smash effect where system exploits that DO require execution can become the fundamental gameplay elements, and you're going to have to invent a lot of new depth for gameplay, because the richness of fighting games often springs from the systems that make them complex (frame traps vs throw techs, footsies and frame adv/disadv, etc)
Plus you have to come up with inputs that let players execute moves easily without executing moves accidentally, which is harder than it seems in fast, high-tension matches
First off, try to not read the comments, as they are a labyrinth in their own right. I will try to confine my comments exclusively to the OP.
Now, this is the guy who won CEO, and I will also say I have been a big supporter of his, and even took my Tekken characters from him as an inspiration.
Now he is saying that he didn't lose at EVO because of skill or because his opponents were better etc. No it's because he had to use a different pad.
Ok, fine, that would have been understandable, had EVO not already announced the ban on wireless controllers almost two months before the event itself. The onus is on the player to adapt to the previously stated ruleset. To state that you lost because of your failure to take this rule into account is unbecoming and shows a lack of maturity.
Further on, he blames TO's for not catering to the Tekken crowd for various reasons which he lists in the post. Again, I'm a smalltime TO, but all the reasons he gives come off as self-serving. Essentially, I feel that he has developed a large sense of entitlement, which some of the comments also stated. I have actually seen small flashes of this entitlement on previous dealings with him, but this current scenario is the most obvious example.
It is really disappointing coming from him, and it sets a very poor example for prospective players, as well as players like me who watched the match where he was eliminated. I expect FChamp and ChrisG to make excuses for their losses, but not this guy.
BaroqueAndRoll on PSN
I'll be playing AE online from here on out.
I'll post when I'm online next.
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
it is
tumblr | instagram | twitter | steam
...
DUH.
You can't put out the same damage or move as quickly or keep yourself as safe as someone who has put in a shitload of practice? That's how it should be. You don't need FFF or korean backdashing to beat up your friends online. There are way simpler options.
Plus if you can't do cool looking shit in injustice or marvel, there is no hope for you.
That's a closed group so I doubt anyone here can see the post, but I don't really feel this is big enough "drama" to lose respect for someone you use to hold in high regard. EVERY top player in EVERY game (americans anyway) make excuses about why they lost at some point, it's just par for the course. Not really fair to hold lil majin (pretty sure he won ceo?) to higher standards, for whatever reason.
I'm dead serious."
That is an incredibly unfair assertion I do not feel you are qualified to make.
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
stupid shining wizard
tumblr | instagram | twitter | steam
I'm dead serious."
I think that's interesting because it suggests that you have to balance spectacle with accessibility. That's a new kind of design consideration that is only now becoming an issue with streaming being so big and easy.
I am also concerned that all efforts at easier fighting games have been kind of wrongheaded - Smash was designed not to be competitive, which is unfortunate, I think.
I'd love to see an earnest attempt to make a competitive, deep fighter with one or two button inputs, designed to be its own game dependent on the mental and spatial skills rather than an "easier" SF clone or a party game. I don't know if it could be as good as a really technical game though.
It's worth noting here that a lot of competitive Brood War fans had the exact same problem with SC2, so balancing accessibility/spectacle is not just a theoretical problem but already a real-world one. I *think* (not positive, though I remember reading a quote along these lines) that Blizzard tried to shift away from accessibility with HotS.
As for fighting games...Hmm, how do I explain this. I really enjoy the execution aspect of fighting games. Any type of execution, whether it's links, cancels, or what have you. I like that you can be rewarded for practice. I really like that you can do something offline by yourself in training mode, just working on a basic aspect of your play, and have it actually make a significant impact in a real match. Being able to hit consecutive combos with more than 1 one-frame link in a real match, even online, is unbelievably rewarding (to me). So, for an easier, reduced-mechanics fighting game that is still deep and competitive, I think it's theoretically possible. But even if it was perfectly made, and a great game, I don't think I'd enjoy playing or watching it. Just not my style.
EDIT: Also, even if that theoretical game was so amazing that I got into it, I feel like there'd always be a voice in the back of my head saying something along the lines of "wouldn't this game be better with another layer of depth with more complicated inputs?"
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
There's probably room for a much more accessible game that won't scare off your friends with inputs, though, which could be a gateway drug as well.
I'm pretty sure Injustice is doing exactly that right now honestly.
As for accessibility I look at it this way 95% of people who play fighters aren't going to travel to some highly competitive environment. Most will play with friends and online(where skill levels vary wildly).
So I think the SF4 level of easy to learn, hard to master works fine.
I think at the end of the day the issue is that there is a very strong sense of instant gratification entitlement that exists in a large subset of gamers. And I feel as soon as you tell people that any kind of work is involved in a game, execution or otherwise, they are turned off.
Not sure what you can do about it.
Injustice isn't that accessible though, and there are some DUMB things in that game. I don't disagree that it's a gateway drug, but I don't think it's because it's more accessible mechanically. I think it's because they have a DC license.
SteamID: Baroque And Roll
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Injustice still requires long combo strings and some solid time in practice mode though, if you want to play online.
It's definitely easier, though the zoning probably turns off a lot of new players.
I couldn't figure out exactly what I should be doing...but the dumb stuff I was doing worked perfectly fine and almost everything was a legit block string and/or low-risk.
They're the ones who wanted to boycott EVO because wireless pads weren't allowed and whined incessantly about it while the rest of us got adapters and adapted.
You must of played quite a few games before quitting to come to this conclusion, surely.
I'm dead serious."
Obviously if you wanna be actually competent at the game you still need some lab time and practice in general but if I was gonna point new players somewhere to start it'd probably be there despite some of the game's shortcomings.
Proof: PR Rog in top 8 by mashing Killer Frost can-can kick combos
this leaves Tekken and anime fighters as the only true games
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Soul Calibur 2
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
it would straight up say "this is your anti-air" "this is your best mixup" "this is your unblockable combo set up"
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