Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
You didn't have to do this in Star Control 2 though, and in this situation I really think it should cede more towards a respect for the player's time anyway. You shouldn't demand the player make a homeworld tour of all of the allied races every time you need to do fleet repairs. All this ends up doing is discouraging the player from having ship variety in their fleet.
Yeah this sounds like a pain in the ass. Here's to hoping for a mod I guess.
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
If I remember, you were restarting the Alliance of Free Stars in SC2. As it was a collection of allied alien races prior to the events of SC2, it made sense to have a centralized staging ground (especially in SC2 where you were pretty much kickstarting a resistance against the Ur-Quan. In SC:O, that alliance hasn't even started yet...so why should the alien races view Earth as their staging grounds?
Erlkönig on
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
If I remember, you were restarting the Alliance of Free Stars in SC2. As it was a collection of allied alien races prior to the events of SC2, it made sense to have a centralized staging ground (especially in SC2 where you were pretty much kickstarting a resistance against the Ur-Quan. In SC:O, that alliance hasn't even started yet...so why should the alien races view Earth as their staging grounds?
Because
(early game)
It's established as a big plot point early on that the Scryve don't know where Earth is.
In general games like this seem to struggle a bit with giving players reasons to go back to some of the places they've uncovered. Sunless Sea made Port Reports even from places you previously visited worthwhile as well as having some quests that required multiple visits with breaks of time between but a lot of those involved uncovering mysteries over time which wouldn't exactly fit as well in Star Control. Sid Meier's Pirates! just eschewed the whole idea of a home base entirely so you basically restocked anywhere and picked up leads for the questlines almost anywhere but that all the cities were pretty homogeneous.
It's not an easy thing to resolve well in a game with a more central plot that also wants you to explore. Both of those other examples largely let you ignore the stated character goals with Sunless Sea having a bunch of alternate endings that would pop up unrelated to one's set character Ambition.
I was one of the Founders for this. Forgot it came out.
I liked the beta, as short as it was.
I'm not a huge fan of IP sitting there unused but owned by someone forever, especially with games where ownership and licensing is so complicated. We need to clean those laws up, and I heavily favor things going into the public domain much more quickly. Stardock's lawsuit may be kind of shitty and Atari may have done some kind of shitty things or whatever, I haven't made up my mind, but I don't think this should even be a topic at this point. P+F and Stardock should both be legally free to make Star Control games if they want. (I know I am oversimplifying, but I find the whole thing kind of stupid.) Look at No One Lives Forever. A dead IP because, if I recall correctly, no one can figure out who even owns it. Stupid, stupid.
I was one of the Founders for this. Forgot it came out.
I liked the beta, as short as it was.
I'm not a huge fan of IP sitting there unused but owned by someone forever, especially with games where ownership and licensing is so complicated. We need to clean those laws up, and I heavily favor things going into the public domain much more quickly. Stardock's lawsuit may be kind of shitty and Atari may have done some kind of shitty things or whatever, I haven't made up my mind, but I don't think this should even be a topic at this point. P+F and Stardock should both be legally free to make Star Control games if they want. (I know I am oversimplifying, but I find the whole thing kind of stupid.) Look at No One Lives Forever. A dead IP because, if I recall correctly, no one can figure out who even owns it. Stupid, stupid.
I agree with the point on IP, but P+F's line of ownership is quite clear. Star Control was a licensed product, legally basically the same as Dawn Of War or Republic Commando- they owned the IPs from get go, Accolade licensed everything from them, and that licence has terminated as they were in arrears for their 1k/year royalties for licencing and the holders had gone bankrupt, twice. It's why UQM was a thing, down to the name - the only bit Accolade owned was 'Star Control'. The original devs posted the their documents, going back 30 years on the subject, and you'd have to be dumber than stones to falsify that, especially as the very same documents are exhibits in the case. So aside from anything else, the IP wasn't idle.
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
For SC2
One one hand, there is lots of evidence that humans make up the crew and that the only definite alien is the ship captain
- you can freely use fwiffo's ship (which you get with just fwiffo on it) yet it is possible to continue indefinitely (and finish I think) without ever contacting the spathi
- IIRC, the only aliens ever explicitly mentioned as having arrived were captains and possibly maintenance people for ship fabrication, except for the shofixti I think
- all crew is generic, can be transferred freely and comes from one pool
- resurrecting the shofixti reduces crew costs across the board implying that shofixti make up a large proportion of the crew pool
- you do not have access to the population for some races for gift ships, eg the arilou probably didn't put spare crew on the space station
The counterexample though is the orz, where their combat ability implies the entire crew is orz because you can send them all out for an assault
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
For SC2
One one hand, there is lots of evidence that humans make up the crew and that the only definite alien is the ship captain
- you can freely use fwiffo's ship (which you get with just fwiffo on it) yet it is possible to continue indefinitely (and finish I think) without ever contacting the spathi
- IIRC, the only aliens ever explicitly mentioned as having arrived were captains and possibly maintenance people for ship fabrication, except for the shofixti I think
- all crew is generic, can be transferred freely and comes from one pool
- resurrecting the shofixti reduces crew costs across the board implying that shofixti make up a large proportion of the crew pool
- you do not have access to the population for some races for gift ships, eg the arilou probably didn't put spare crew on the space station
The counterexample though is the orz, where their combat ability implies the entire crew is orz because you can send them all out for an assault
It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember the starbase commander mentioning that Orz have arrived and are tromping around the starbase in full exo armor once you recruit them. Also it's entirely possible to piss off the Orz into leaving the alliance(only happens if you go out of your way to do it) and while you can't make more ships from that point, you can still stock what you have.
But I spent some time with the game last night(by "some", it might be closer to an eight hour marathon) and it appears all of my currently recruited ships have actually restocked fine when returning to Earth - the only ones that still didn't restock were minor race ships that joined me on their own as a result of quests or quest decisions. Looking at further user forum posts it appears that what actually happens is that ships will restock fine at Earth if they belong to a currently allied race, but if you brought on one of their ships at some point and the race is not yet allied or cannot ever be allied, then you can't repair that ship at Earth. (for example there's one instance where a ship will join from a race that can't be allied and has no homeworld, and thus can never be repaired)
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
For SC2
One one hand, there is lots of evidence that humans make up the crew and that the only definite alien is the ship captain
- you can freely use fwiffo's ship (which you get with just fwiffo on it) yet it is possible to continue indefinitely (and finish I think) without ever contacting the spathi
- IIRC, the only aliens ever explicitly mentioned as having arrived were captains and possibly maintenance people for ship fabrication, except for the shofixti I think
- all crew is generic, can be transferred freely and comes from one pool
- resurrecting the shofixti reduces crew costs across the board implying that shofixti make up a large proportion of the crew pool
- you do not have access to the population for some races for gift ships, eg the arilou probably didn't put spare crew on the space station
The counterexample though is the orz, where their combat ability implies the entire crew is orz because you can send them all out for an assault
It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember the starbase commander mentioning that Orz have arrived and are tromping around the starbase in full exo armor once you recruit them. Also it's entirely possible to piss off the Orz into leaving the alliance(only happens if you go out of your way to do it) and while you can't make more ships from that point, you can still stock what you have.
But I spent some time with the game last night(by "some", it might be closer to an eight hour marathon) and it appears all of my currently recruited ships have actually restocked fine when returning to Earth - the only ones that still didn't restock were minor race ships that joined me on their own as a result of quests or quest decisions. Looking at further user forum posts it appears that what actually happens is that ships will restock fine at Earth if they belong to a currently allied race, but if you brought on one of their ships at some point and the race is not yet allied or cannot ever be allied, then you can't repair that ship at Earth. (for example there's one instance where a ship will join from a race that can't be allied and has no homeworld, and thus can never be repaired)
The Human starbase in SC2 was an installation presumably expressly designed to maintain a wide array of ship designs and technologies, with the ability to add more if new thralls were taken. It's not surprising they could keep things in working order, especially as the Eluder was a design in their files.
Jeep-Eep on
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
Oh... alien ships that you recruit demand you physically go all the way to that race's homeworld whenever you want to repair them, while salvaged alien ships can be repaired at the human station, and one-off alien ships that join you as rewards can never be repaired? And according to the developers this is intended?
Baffling.
In a way, it makes a kind of convoluted sense:
Recruited ships: ships that are fully alien to your human starbase...repairs require alien techs to not cock things up.
Salvaged ships: Humans reconstructed an alien ship using a mix of human and alien tech...ship is understood enough to repair at human starbases
One-off alien ship rewards: ...... um.... profit! I dunno, maybe they're specially made exotic exemplars that are so exotic that nobody can repair them.
The recruited ship requirement sounds a bit annoying but I admit it would give one reason to visit an alien homeworld again compared to how in SC2 once you finished recruiting them and doing any quest/plot things you basically never bothered visiting your allies again.
Hell if I understand the one-offs though.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
For SC2
One one hand, there is lots of evidence that humans make up the crew and that the only definite alien is the ship captain
- you can freely use fwiffo's ship (which you get with just fwiffo on it) yet it is possible to continue indefinitely (and finish I think) without ever contacting the spathi
- IIRC, the only aliens ever explicitly mentioned as having arrived were captains and possibly maintenance people for ship fabrication, except for the shofixti I think
- all crew is generic, can be transferred freely and comes from one pool
- resurrecting the shofixti reduces crew costs across the board implying that shofixti make up a large proportion of the crew pool
- you do not have access to the population for some races for gift ships, eg the arilou probably didn't put spare crew on the space station
The counterexample though is the orz, where their combat ability implies the entire crew is orz because you can send them all out for an assault
It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember the starbase commander mentioning that Orz have arrived and are tromping around the starbase in full exo armor once you recruit them. Also it's entirely possible to piss off the Orz into leaving the alliance(only happens if you go out of your way to do it) and while you can't make more ships from that point, you can still stock what you have.
But I spent some time with the game last night(by "some", it might be closer to an eight hour marathon) and it appears all of my currently recruited ships have actually restocked fine when returning to Earth - the only ones that still didn't restock were minor race ships that joined me on their own as a result of quests or quest decisions. Looking at further user forum posts it appears that what actually happens is that ships will restock fine at Earth if they belong to a currently allied race, but if you brought on one of their ships at some point and the race is not yet allied or cannot ever be allied, then you can't repair that ship at Earth. (for example there's one instance where a ship will join from a race that can't be allied and has no homeworld, and thus can never be repaired)
I really like that ship, I want to repair it!
It has taken a back seat to some crashed ship I found that fires rounds of 3 that seem to go almost across the entire map. Just sit back and snipe. I also really like the tywom sentinel things (special) (maybe cause I am on normal AI and it's a bit dumb).
That silly goose must think we're as silly as he is.
V2 grants you license to use the marks for UQM, in perpetuity, as-is.
The only outs for Stardock seem to be if you hand the project off to someone else [who didn't agree to this], or make material changes that cause your sourceforge page or UQM to become an embarrassment to the brand.
Where's the bait and switch?
[Edit] Follow-up Q: What would you want it to say?
That silly goose must think we're as silly as he is.
V2 grants you license to use the marks for UQM, in perpetuity, as-is.
The only outs for Stardock seem to be if you hand the project off to someone else [who didn't agree to this], or make material changes that cause your sourceforge page or UQM to become an embarrassment to the brand.
Where's the bait and switch?
[Edit] Follow-up Q: What would you want it to say?
First problem: the trademark in question hasn't been granted yet, and the UQM projet actually predates the "first use" Stardock cited by about a year. You can't license something you don't own.
Second problem the license mentions *assigning* trademarks from the project to Stardock. Which is...weird, and if you read the rest of the linked thread it's pretty likely Stardock will simply shut it down immediately using that.
Third it doesn't really allow open source, so the project would need changes.
That silly goose must think we're as silly as he is.
V2 grants you license to use the marks for UQM, in perpetuity, as-is.
The only outs for Stardock seem to be if you hand the project off to someone else [who didn't agree to this], or make material changes that cause your sourceforge page or UQM to become an embarrassment to the brand.
Where's the bait and switch?
[Edit] Follow-up Q: What would you want it to say?
First problem: the trademark in question hasn't been granted yet, and the UQM projet actually predates the "first use" Stardock cited by about a year. You can't license something you don't own.
Second problem the license mentions *assigning* trademarks from the project to Stardock. Which is...weird, and if you read the rest of the linked thread it's pretty likely Stardock will simply shut it down immediately using that.
Third it doesn't really allow open source, so the project would need changes.
I don't see how the bolded in the first bit is a problem?
It says
Should it at any time be determined that Licensee at any time established any rights to the Marks prior to the Effective Date of this Agreement, Licensee hereby agrees to assign and does assign any and all of its right, title and interest in and to said Marks and all goodwill associated therewith, and shall provide Licensor with any needed information, material, document or otherwise to effectuate this Assignment.
That just sounds like if UQM had already registered trademarks on any of the stuff in question then they agree to abandon/turn them over to Stardock.
The second problem is also in that paragraph. Any trademark rights so transferred to Stardock would be governed by this agreement which lets them continue to use them as-is, forever.
I don't see where Stardock can shut them down unless they transfer control of the project or make "material changes" to the "manner of their usage" of the marks.
Like, the grant is stated for "as currently used," as opposed to 'subject to future changes in Stardock's "quality" determination'
I don't know how you grant someone usage of a trademark any more broadly without ceding control. (Assuming Stardock owns the rights)
And it's trying to claim UQM so they can claim the marks were used in commerce by them.
Aren't they already claiming commercial use from GOG sales? Let's say they're not, and it's as you say: I don't see how this hurts you, nor what they baited and switched you with. How does this hurt UQM? Are there plans to change the manner in which you use the IP in question, or to transfer control of the project ownership?
The bolded bit is a problem because Stardock is trying to force people to sign a licensing agreement for trademarks they haven't actually been granted. Trademarks that were in use before they filed for the trademark. The second part isn't *that* uncommon, but that's usually because of coincidence, not the same product! Stardock is effectively wanting the project to give up any trademark rights it might have, for nothing.
Licensor shall, however, be
notified of any material changes to the manner in which the Marks are used via the Website and/or the
Game and shall be the sole judge of whether Licensee adheres to the standard of quality adopted herein.
Term & Termination: This Agreement shall remain in place until terminated. It may only be
terminated if there is a change in control of the project or if there is a violation of section 2 of this license.
UQM is open source. What does control of the project mean in that context?
That's a loophole so big you can drive a truck through it. I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want whether my project's continued existence dependent on someone who described it's forum with the words "that vile little community will be eliminated".
At the minimum Stardock shouldn't be trying to license anything until they actually have a registered trademark. They could also just follow what their CEO claims to have wanted to do and do nothing. Or something as simple as "The UQM project at (website) is a fan-based port of older Star Control games, using Stardock trademarks with our permission. It is not affiliated with Stardock and we are not responsible for it's contents."
EDIT: It's likely that the play here is to claim the UQM project as a Stardock thing to the trademark office, to use as leverage in their lawsuit.
Stardock were, ArbitraryDecision, and were (rightfully) DMCA'd for it, as it wasn't his to sell - the copyrights had reverted to P+F, as per the contract, which is why UQM was even a thing - and that contract explicitly forbade transfer of the trademark without their written consent, so it's doubly not allowed. As for UQM, this incident has basically confirmed that if he wins, he'll kill the project, as he's explicitly threatened the community and admitted to it and the licence he proposed took over control and forced folks not to dispute the ownership.
Jeep-Eep on
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
The bolded bit is a problem because Stardock is trying to force people to sign a licensing agreement for trademarks they haven't actually been granted. Trademarks that were in use before they filed for the trademark. The second part isn't *that* uncommon, but that's usually because of coincidence, not the same product! Stardock is effectively wanting the project to give up any trademark rights it might have, for nothing.
Licensor shall, however, be notified of any material changes to the manner in which the Marks are used via the Website and/or the Game and shall be the sole judge of whether Licensee adheres to the standard of quality adopted herein.
Term & Termination: This Agreement shall remain in place until terminated. It may only be terminated if there is a change in control of the project or if there is a violation of section 2 of this license.
UQM is open source. What does control of the project mean in that context?
That's a loophole so big you can drive a truck through it. I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want whether my project's continued existence dependent on someone who described it's forum with the words "that vile little community will be eliminated".
At the minimum Stardock shouldn't be trying to license anything until they actually have a registered trademark. They could also just follow what their CEO claims to have wanted to do and do nothing. Or something as simple as "The UQM project at (website) is a fan-based port of older Star Control games, using Stardock trademarks with our permission. It is not affiliated with Stardock and we are not responsible for it's contents."
EDIT: It's likely that the play here is to claim the UQM project as a Stardock thing to the trademark office, to use as leverage in their lawsuit
Re Edit: Seems plausible.
But if they believe they have the trademark, don't they have to do this anyway?
To my non-lawyerly eyes, the agreement already reads as this:
"The UQM project at (website) is a fan-based port of older Star Control games, using Stardock trademarks with our permission. It is not affiliated with Stardock and we are not responsible for it's contents."
The first words on the page are "INTRODUCTION. This is a trademark license that grants the UR-QUAN MASTERS project a perpetual, royalty-free license to the STAR CONTROL® related marks."
In that context, changing "the manner" of their use of the IP read as "new products." Ex: I can't see how maintaining and updating UQM and the associated website along their current lines would constitute a "material change to the manner of their use," while selling T-shirts or making a new game would. (The latter would be the things Stardock would not want, as opposed to a faithfully maintained port of the classic.)
That said, the language about changing project "control" of a community project does seem problematic, but it is for all involved. Assume we replace the entire agreement with the just the intro sentence. If no one one but Stardock agrees to that, does a unilateral proclamation serve as a sufficient attempt to control their brand? I don't know the answer to that, but I know that preventing adverse possession (similar in concept) requires you to tell the person that they have their permission.to use your land. I would assume the more rigid nature of trademark requires some kind of paper trail.
So lets assume for the sake of argument that they do need someone to sign it; so who? UQM is not an entity or distinctly owned by anyone.
So, as drafted, they're cutting a deal with Jeep-Eep, personally. If Eep walks away from UQM, they've now cut a deal with no one and no longer assert control on their brand. Without that clause, if Eep walks away, then Eep, not UQM, would retain the license; because UQM is not a signatory, or even an entity that could be.
If their goal here is a good faith read of the intro, which is that UQM is "A-ok, don't even worry about it. Seriously."and they've still got to get someone representing UQM to agree to these terms to cover their ass(tm), they should modify the arbitrary language about project control, ex:
Term & Termination: This Agreement shall remain in place until terminated. It may only be terminated if there is a change in control of the project or ...
To something pertaining to the licensee instead of unspecified third-parties:
Term & Termination: This Agreement shall remain in place until terminated. It may only be terminated if the licensee no longer has authority over the project or ...
Then (assuming you all signed one) it doesn't matter if any one core member flips the others the bird and storms off; their agreements (flipees) would not be subject to termination, just the flippor.
But that still only lasts as long as you all can avoid being hit by a bus. To further demonstrate this good faith, Stardock should add a section detailing transferal of the rights from a licensee leaving the project to a successor. Even with the above change, strict non-transferability still leaves the possibility that all original licensees would have left the project, and the new curators would have had to negotiate a new license, which could be far less friendly. Outlining the rules for transferability would establish a mechanism that ensures exactly these agreed upon rights can be maintained by the project, regardless of leadership, and would be a big improvement for UQM's long term security.
Not sure if at all practical: but perhaps a possibility that doesn't have four mortal, non-lawyers taking personal responsibility for UQM might be seeing if one of the OS orgs (Apache, MIT, IDK) would take UQM in and sign whatever thing may eventually need signing; be it with Stardock or the other dudes. I would think that the other dudes will eventually need to get some paper on UQM's use of SC trademarks should they come out on top (as a necessary measure to defend against future attempts)
Edit: Sweet mother of fuck, that's quite a long post to be about nothing fun.
Just a heads up for people playing, stay away from the Alpha Satori stars. There are perpetually spawning Scryve there that are guarding a planet, which is plot-related in some way. It's entirely possible to force your way through and find out what's there, but it breaks the story quests really hard if you do that. So just wait until the plot sends you there.
I find this all very depressing and I really don't know how to feel.
All I can say is, I'm about 10 hours into Origins and I love it. It's really, really rich and deep and good.
All of this legal stuff is depressing.
I say we just move towards a lawless anarchy so I can enjoy my gamezes in peace*
*a joke**
**mostly
May I recommend 'rage at the fact that Brad Wardell is trying to deny you what could be one of the best indie games ever in a fit of pique?' Because that's what the facts of the case dictate.
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
I find this all very depressing and I really don't know how to feel.
All I can say is, I'm about 10 hours into Origins and I love it. It's really, really rich and deep and good.
All of this legal stuff is depressing.
I say we just move towards a lawless anarchy so I can enjoy my gamezes in peace*
*a joke**
**mostly
May I recommend 'rage at the fact that Brad Wardell is trying to deny you what could be one of the best indie games ever in a fit of pique?' Because that's what the facts of the case dictate.
Sure...with the least charitable and most cynical read of the 'facts.' As Arbitrary's post mentions, stepping back and giving the slightest bit of charitable reads shows a lot less malicious intent than you're seeing.
And "one of the best indie games ever"? I'm not sure I'd quite go that far. One of the best fan-projects? Absolutely.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
Jeep-Eep on
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
I don't want to mention too much about it because it will spoil it, I'd say overall ST:O's writing is competent so far. It's not bad, definitely not amazing, but competent. The aliens are a treat though, aside from the Scryve who are just generic evil-asshole-empire-that-want-to-kill-all-the-humans™. The Menkmack and the Phamysht are probably my favorites so far, least favorite being the Greeg who are just kind of annoying, but they make up for it by having some of the most grossly broken ships available.
The game's biggest crime however is that it has utterly, utterly forgettable music. Every race in SC2 had their own catchy theme song that was at the forefront of interactions with them that most people who've played SC2 still remember to this day, but none of the music for the races in Origins is memorable in any way, nor even the regular gameplay music. The only ones I remember are the hyperspace music and the battle music and that's only because they're just remixes of SC2's tracks.
That's odd. I thought they had the SC2 music guys on board. Maybe it was just those remixes?
Riku Nuottajärvi did a much better job on the Precursors team, and to my knowledge he wasn't aboard for SC:O - I think they only had Erol Otis. Edit: No, he was there, but for some reason, precursors was more innovative and interesting. I'm inclined to chalk it up to possible exec interference, much like the cloning of the weakest aspect of SCII, the planet lander.
Jeep-Eep on
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
It depends, just being ready for announcement doesn't necessarily mean they hadn't had the initial framework in place for a while - they've long maintained they wanted to do a Star Control game but because Skylanders was/is such a money train they couldn't get the time to make real progress with anything else.
This will really depend on whether they've had any initial designs drawn up and whether they can prove that they predate Stardock's project. (that's what court is for whee legal system)
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
They'd been trying to for years, but never could get the time and resources until 2017.
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
They'd been trying to for years, but never could get the time and resources until 2017.
Didn't these guys basically create Skylanders? And we're talking if they had time or resources to make this game?
Bottom line is they couldn't because of the whole copyright mess, and didn't want to deal with it. When Stardock bought the rights, they found a new entity to deal with other than Atari. I get why it happened, but let's not understate how they waited for a smaller company to have the IP before they started fighting again.
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
They'd been trying to for years, but never could get the time and resources until 2017.
Didn't these guys basically create Skylanders? And we're talking if they had time or resources to make this game?
Bottom line is they couldn't because of the whole copyright mess, and didn't want to deal with it. When Stardock bought the rights, they found a new entity to deal with other than Atari. I get why it happened, but let's not understate how they waited for a smaller company to have the IP before they started fighting again.
Skylanders was basically winning the lottery, they couldn't have planned for it. They didn't have to fiddle with Atari or whatnot to get their IP, they already owned all the bits needed to make a real Star Control game except the name, explicitly by their contract, which had had it's termination clauses fired literally 15 years ago now and had been chasing their bosses to do it through them for a while, to little success, which is why UQM got made - they owned the art, story, alien design and code, it having reverted to them. Wardell went chasing them, not the other way around - he had some scheme to hire them and let them make games, which, being by that point they had literally everything they needed - money saved from that success, some break time and their IP, they basically had no reason to deal with him until he started selling stuff he had no right to. FFS, the sale of the SC trademark itself is likely invalid by that contract, as it specifically forbade transfer except by written permission, and Accolade held by that contract.
Jeep-Eep on
I would rather be accused of intransigence than tolerating genocide for the sake of everyone getting along. - @Metzger Meister
I've been watching Wardell's pattern of odd outbursts and frankly vengeful behavior, to the point of threatening the biggest SC communities on the net for not bowing and scraping for months now, it's what it strongly suggests, at least.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
They'd been trying to for years, but never could get the time and resources until 2017.
Didn't these guys basically create Skylanders? And we're talking if they had time or resources to make this game?
Bottom line is they couldn't because of the whole copyright mess, and didn't want to deal with it. When Stardock bought the rights, they found a new entity to deal with other than Atari. I get why it happened, but let's not understate how they waited for a smaller company to have the IP before they started fighting again.
Stardock does not have the copyright. Paul and Fred do. Stardock has the words Star Control trademarked and that's *it*.
I don't have a dog in this race, I just want to play Star Control games. Origins sounds like it turned out good, so I'll end up getting it sometime. If P+F make theirs as well, great... I'll check it out too. I just don't see either side as being the sole issue with the whole horseshit scenario.
I'll get excited about P+F's efforts when I actually see a video or a screenshot of some kind. If they've been working on it for a while, they certainly don't have much to show the public.
Oh... there's an easter egg with the Zoq-Fot-Pik in Origins, and they're not even shy about explicitly using the species names. I hope Stardock has the rights to do that...
Posts
Yeah this sounds like a pain in the ass. Here's to hoping for a mod I guess.
Is it "damage" or "crew" as in classic ?
If crew, I could fanwank it as:
One offs: Can't find anyone with long enough tentacles to fly the damned thing.
Recruited: Ship is still an official naval vessel of that Empire, must be crewed by its sailors.
Salvage: No requirement.
But it wasn't treated as a thing before, so I would have to assume there is some gameplay purpose. Maybe later in the campaign races start getting wiped out, cutting off your access to fresh ships?
(Still kinda weird with salvage right there, but..)
Damage is measured as "crew" like the previous games. But, well, the thing is from the very start of the game the starbase Commander straight up handwaves away how resources convert to resource units(no matter where you turn them in) and how those resource units can be an all-in-one currency for all construction needs, telling you to pay no attention to the man behind that curtain(I think she actually called it "space accounting magic" or something similar). It creates a weird dissonance to then decide to want to take a particularly restrictive route for ship crew. You could just explain it by saying something like that now that they're allies against the not-Ur-Quan, the Earth starbase is being used as an allied staging ground and you now have standing crew ready to handle any resupply needs. (lit. how it was handled in SC2)
If I remember, you were restarting the Alliance of Free Stars in SC2. As it was a collection of allied alien races prior to the events of SC2, it made sense to have a centralized staging ground (especially in SC2 where you were pretty much kickstarting a resistance against the Ur-Quan. In SC:O, that alliance hasn't even started yet...so why should the alien races view Earth as their staging grounds?
Because
(early game)
It's not an easy thing to resolve well in a game with a more central plot that also wants you to explore. Both of those other examples largely let you ignore the stated character goals with Sunless Sea having a bunch of alternate endings that would pop up unrelated to one's set character Ambition.
Steam Profile
3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
I liked the beta, as short as it was.
I'm not a huge fan of IP sitting there unused but owned by someone forever, especially with games where ownership and licensing is so complicated. We need to clean those laws up, and I heavily favor things going into the public domain much more quickly. Stardock's lawsuit may be kind of shitty and Atari may have done some kind of shitty things or whatever, I haven't made up my mind, but I don't think this should even be a topic at this point. P+F and Stardock should both be legally free to make Star Control games if they want. (I know I am oversimplifying, but I find the whole thing kind of stupid.) Look at No One Lives Forever. A dead IP because, if I recall correctly, no one can figure out who even owns it. Stupid, stupid.
I agree with the point on IP, but P+F's line of ownership is quite clear. Star Control was a licensed product, legally basically the same as Dawn Of War or Republic Commando- they owned the IPs from get go, Accolade licensed everything from them, and that licence has terminated as they were in arrears for their 1k/year royalties for licencing and the holders had gone bankrupt, twice. It's why UQM was a thing, down to the name - the only bit Accolade owned was 'Star Control'. The original devs posted the their documents, going back 30 years on the subject, and you'd have to be dumber than stones to falsify that, especially as the very same documents are exhibits in the case. So aside from anything else, the IP wasn't idle.
Edit: Said agreement, as part of a series of exhibits: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz9vjzds3uqvpmt/#50 - Exhibits 1-8.pdf?dl=1
For SC2
One one hand, there is lots of evidence that humans make up the crew and that the only definite alien is the ship captain
- you can freely use fwiffo's ship (which you get with just fwiffo on it) yet it is possible to continue indefinitely (and finish I think) without ever contacting the spathi
- IIRC, the only aliens ever explicitly mentioned as having arrived were captains and possibly maintenance people for ship fabrication, except for the shofixti I think
- all crew is generic, can be transferred freely and comes from one pool
- resurrecting the shofixti reduces crew costs across the board implying that shofixti make up a large proportion of the crew pool
- you do not have access to the population for some races for gift ships, eg the arilou probably didn't put spare crew on the space station
The counterexample though is the orz, where their combat ability implies the entire crew is orz because you can send them all out for an assault
It's been a while since I played but I definitely remember the starbase commander mentioning that Orz have arrived and are tromping around the starbase in full exo armor once you recruit them. Also it's entirely possible to piss off the Orz into leaving the alliance(only happens if you go out of your way to do it) and while you can't make more ships from that point, you can still stock what you have.
But I spent some time with the game last night(by "some", it might be closer to an eight hour marathon) and it appears all of my currently recruited ships have actually restocked fine when returning to Earth - the only ones that still didn't restock were minor race ships that joined me on their own as a result of quests or quest decisions. Looking at further user forum posts it appears that what actually happens is that ships will restock fine at Earth if they belong to a currently allied race, but if you brought on one of their ships at some point and the race is not yet allied or cannot ever be allied, then you can't repair that ship at Earth. (for example there's one instance where a ship will join from a race that can't be allied and has no homeworld, and thus can never be repaired)
The Human starbase in SC2 was an installation presumably expressly designed to maintain a wide array of ship designs and technologies, with the ability to add more if new thralls were taken. It's not surprising they could keep things in working order, especially as the Eluder was a design in their files.
I really like that ship, I want to repair it!
It has taken a back seat to some crashed ship I found that fires rounds of 3 that seem to go almost across the entire map. Just sit back and snipe. I also really like the tywom sentinel things (special) (maybe cause I am on normal AI and it's a bit dumb).
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
For da emprah
That silly goose must think we're as silly as he is.
V2 grants you license to use the marks for UQM, in perpetuity, as-is.
The only outs for Stardock seem to be if you hand the project off to someone else [who didn't agree to this], or make material changes that cause your sourceforge page or UQM to become an embarrassment to the brand.
Where's the bait and switch?
[Edit] Follow-up Q: What would you want it to say?
First problem: the trademark in question hasn't been granted yet, and the UQM projet actually predates the "first use" Stardock cited by about a year. You can't license something you don't own.
Second problem the license mentions *assigning* trademarks from the project to Stardock. Which is...weird, and if you read the rest of the linked thread it's pretty likely Stardock will simply shut it down immediately using that.
Third it doesn't really allow open source, so the project would need changes.
I don't see how the bolded in the first bit is a problem?
It says
That just sounds like if UQM had already registered trademarks on any of the stuff in question then they agree to abandon/turn them over to Stardock.
The second problem is also in that paragraph. Any trademark rights so transferred to Stardock would be governed by this agreement which lets them continue to use them as-is, forever.
I don't see where Stardock can shut them down unless they transfer control of the project or make "material changes" to the "manner of their usage" of the marks.
Like, the grant is stated for "as currently used," as opposed to 'subject to future changes in Stardock's "quality" determination'
I don't know how you grant someone usage of a trademark any more broadly without ceding control. (Assuming Stardock owns the rights)
Aren't they already claiming commercial use from GOG sales? Let's say they're not, and it's as you say: I don't see how this hurts you, nor what they baited and switched you with. How does this hurt UQM? Are there plans to change the manner in which you use the IP in question, or to transfer control of the project ownership?
UQM is open source. What does control of the project mean in that context?
That's a loophole so big you can drive a truck through it. I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want whether my project's continued existence dependent on someone who described it's forum with the words "that vile little community will be eliminated".
At the minimum Stardock shouldn't be trying to license anything until they actually have a registered trademark. They could also just follow what their CEO claims to have wanted to do and do nothing. Or something as simple as "The UQM project at (website) is a fan-based port of older Star Control games, using Stardock trademarks with our permission. It is not affiliated with Stardock and we are not responsible for it's contents."
EDIT: It's likely that the play here is to claim the UQM project as a Stardock thing to the trademark office, to use as leverage in their lawsuit.
Re Edit: Seems plausible.
But if they believe they have the trademark, don't they have to do this anyway?
To my non-lawyerly eyes, the agreement already reads as this:
"The UQM project at (website) is a fan-based port of older Star Control games, using Stardock trademarks with our permission. It is not affiliated with Stardock and we are not responsible for it's contents."
The first words on the page are "INTRODUCTION. This is a trademark license that grants the UR-QUAN MASTERS project a perpetual, royalty-free license to the STAR CONTROL® related marks."
In that context, changing "the manner" of their use of the IP read as "new products." Ex: I can't see how maintaining and updating UQM and the associated website along their current lines would constitute a "material change to the manner of their use," while selling T-shirts or making a new game would. (The latter would be the things Stardock would not want, as opposed to a faithfully maintained port of the classic.)
That said, the language about changing project "control" of a community project does seem problematic, but it is for all involved. Assume we replace the entire agreement with the just the intro sentence. If no one one but Stardock agrees to that, does a unilateral proclamation serve as a sufficient attempt to control their brand? I don't know the answer to that, but I know that preventing adverse possession (similar in concept) requires you to tell the person that they have their permission.to use your land. I would assume the more rigid nature of trademark requires some kind of paper trail.
So lets assume for the sake of argument that they do need someone to sign it; so who? UQM is not an entity or distinctly owned by anyone.
So, as drafted, they're cutting a deal with Jeep-Eep, personally. If Eep walks away from UQM, they've now cut a deal with no one and no longer assert control on their brand. Without that clause, if Eep walks away, then Eep, not UQM, would retain the license; because UQM is not a signatory, or even an entity that could be.
If their goal here is a good faith read of the intro, which is that UQM is "A-ok, don't even worry about it. Seriously."and they've still got to get someone representing UQM to agree to these terms to cover their ass(tm), they should modify the arbitrary language about project control, ex:
To something pertaining to the licensee instead of unspecified third-parties:
Then (assuming you all signed one) it doesn't matter if any one core member flips the others the bird and storms off; their agreements (flipees) would not be subject to termination, just the flippor.
But that still only lasts as long as you all can avoid being hit by a bus. To further demonstrate this good faith, Stardock should add a section detailing transferal of the rights from a licensee leaving the project to a successor. Even with the above change, strict non-transferability still leaves the possibility that all original licensees would have left the project, and the new curators would have had to negotiate a new license, which could be far less friendly. Outlining the rules for transferability would establish a mechanism that ensures exactly these agreed upon rights can be maintained by the project, regardless of leadership, and would be a big improvement for UQM's long term security.
Not sure if at all practical: but perhaps a possibility that doesn't have four mortal, non-lawyers taking personal responsibility for UQM might be seeing if one of the OS orgs (Apache, MIT, IDK) would take UQM in and sign whatever thing may eventually need signing; be it with Stardock or the other dudes. I would think that the other dudes will eventually need to get some paper on UQM's use of SC trademarks should they come out on top (as a necessary measure to defend against future attempts)
Edit: Sweet mother of fuck, that's quite a long post to be about nothing fun.
All I can say is, I'm about 10 hours into Origins and I love it. It's really, really rich and deep and good.
All of this legal stuff is depressing.
I say we just move towards a lawless anarchy so I can enjoy my gamezes in peace*
*a joke**
**mostly
May I recommend 'rage at the fact that Brad Wardell is trying to deny you what could be one of the best indie games ever in a fit of pique?' Because that's what the facts of the case dictate.
Sure...with the least charitable and most cynical read of the 'facts.' As Arbitrary's post mentions, stepping back and giving the slightest bit of charitable reads shows a lot less malicious intent than you're seeing.
And "one of the best indie games ever"? I'm not sure I'd quite go that far. One of the best fan-projects? Absolutely.
Have you ever heard of 'Ghosts Of The Precursors', by any chance?' It's what would have already been under dev, if it hadn't been for Wardell being a silly goose, and it would have blown SC:O out of the water with nary a glance, as Paul is a much better writer then everyone at Stardock put together, and Fred is a crackerjack programmer that wrote most of SCII himself and the pair are superlative designers , and that's before whoever else they find to work with them.
The game's biggest crime however is that it has utterly, utterly forgettable music. Every race in SC2 had their own catchy theme song that was at the forefront of interactions with them that most people who've played SC2 still remember to this day, but none of the music for the races in Origins is memorable in any way, nor even the regular gameplay music. The only ones I remember are the hyperspace music and the battle music and that's only because they're just remixes of SC2's tracks.
Riku Nuottajärvi did a much better job on the Precursors team, and to my knowledge he wasn't aboard for SC:O - I think they only had Erol Otis. Edit: No, he was there, but for some reason, precursors was more innovative and interesting. I'm inclined to chalk it up to possible exec interference, much like the cloning of the weakest aspect of SCII, the planet lander.
They told me last night but it didn't update in my log for some reason >_<
*edit*
Never mind, had the race wrong and I know it because they jumped me again and told me where to go.
I like P+F's work, but let's not just clear them of all wrongdoing. They waited until Stardock had the SC IP and were well onto making a prequel game before they announced anything. Saying Ghosts of the Precursors was around first is blatantly incorrect. They basically announced their game when Origins was starting to pick up steam, conveniently.
It depends, just being ready for announcement doesn't necessarily mean they hadn't had the initial framework in place for a while - they've long maintained they wanted to do a Star Control game but because Skylanders was/is such a money train they couldn't get the time to make real progress with anything else.
This will really depend on whether they've had any initial designs drawn up and whether they can prove that they predate Stardock's project. (that's what court is for whee legal system)
They'd been trying to for years, but never could get the time and resources until 2017.
Didn't these guys basically create Skylanders? And we're talking if they had time or resources to make this game?
Bottom line is they couldn't because of the whole copyright mess, and didn't want to deal with it. When Stardock bought the rights, they found a new entity to deal with other than Atari. I get why it happened, but let's not understate how they waited for a smaller company to have the IP before they started fighting again.
Skylanders was basically winning the lottery, they couldn't have planned for it. They didn't have to fiddle with Atari or whatnot to get their IP, they already owned all the bits needed to make a real Star Control game except the name, explicitly by their contract, which had had it's termination clauses fired literally 15 years ago now and had been chasing their bosses to do it through them for a while, to little success, which is why UQM got made - they owned the art, story, alien design and code, it having reverted to them. Wardell went chasing them, not the other way around - he had some scheme to hire them and let them make games, which, being by that point they had literally everything they needed - money saved from that success, some break time and their IP, they basically had no reason to deal with him until he started selling stuff he had no right to. FFS, the sale of the SC trademark itself is likely invalid by that contract, as it specifically forbade transfer except by written permission, and Accolade held by that contract.
Stardock does not have the copyright. Paul and Fred do. Stardock has the words Star Control trademarked and that's *it*.
I'll get excited about P+F's efforts when I actually see a video or a screenshot of some kind. If they've been working on it for a while, they certainly don't have much to show the public.