So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
You're misunderstanding; fully exploiting a boss's weakness is to prevent you from getting ANNIHILATED. The less turns a boss can move, the better; especially when bosses generally get multiple press turns to compensate for the fact that there's only one of 'em. Not to mention that due to the fact that there is no actual armor rating in this game, your party can easily be wiped out at any point in time, so keep that in mind.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
You're misunderstanding; fully exploiting a boss's weakness is to prevent you from getting ANNIHILATED. The less turns a boss can move, the better; especially when bosses generally get multiple press turns to compensate for the fact that there's only one of 'em. Not to mention that due to the fact that there is no actual armor rating in this game, your party can easily be wiped out at any point in time, so keep that in mind.
Yeah, boss fights are built around exploiting bosses weaknesses. You can bypass that by severely overleveling before you face the boss, but if you're trying to keep things at a "fair" level, you want to do your best to maximize exploiting boss weaknesses. Think of Boss battles as Puzzle Fights, not standard RPG fights. If you put the right pieces in place to exploit the boss's weaknesses, you win. If you don't, you lose.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
Minotaur is one of the bosses that act as a wake up call that hitting weaknesses isn't just a nice to have before the game opens up more. Your demons are very expendable until the very end and should be refused when they start to not pull their weight. SMT boss fights usually come down to being prepared to take advantage of a boss's weaknesses or attack strategy (eg, a physical absorb demon on a physical attack boss) more than raw power or trading blows.
Thinking about the game being "balanced" isn't quite the right attitude. The series is balanced to kill you and not care. It's balanced to show you no mercy and you should treat it the same way. The bosses won't give you any chances so there's no reason to give them any. Exploiting every, any and all advantages is not really breaking the game, it is... Victory.
That's the joy of the series, when the AI is pretty much designed to be a huge asshole you don't feel bad for playing in a fashion that would break the game in any other RPG series.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
Minotaur is one of the bosses that act as a wake up call that hitting weaknesses isn't just a nice to have before the game opens up more. Your demons are very expendable until the very end and should be refused when they start to not pull their weight. SMT boss fights usually come down to being prepared to take advantage of a boss's weaknesses or attack strategy (eg, a physical absorb demon on a physical attack boss) more than raw power or trading blows.
So here's another question - when does it make sense to fuse demons? Should you wait until they've gotten all of their skills/demon whisper, or as soon as you can make something stronger?
Thinking about the game being "balanced" isn't quite the right attitude. The series is balanced to kill you and not care. It's balanced to show you no mercy and you should treat it the same way. The bosses won't give you any chances so there's no reason to give them any. Exploiting every, any and all advantages is not really breaking the game, it is... Victory.
That's the joy of the series, when the AI is pretty much designed to be a huge asshole you don't feel bad for playing in a fashion that would break the game in any other RPG series.
Hah. I had Pierce when I did the Diet Building so.... all those bosses were a joke.
Demifiend LAUGHS at your physical immunity and punches you in the face.
Edit: Oh, a tip for fighting any boss that has Adds in a Press Turn SMT game. Keep them alive, but Petrify or otherwise make them useless. Proceed to laugh as half the boss' turns are wasted.
Thinking about the game being "balanced" isn't quite the right attitude. The series is balanced to kill you and not care. It's balanced to show you no mercy and you should treat it the same way. The bosses won't give you any chances so there's no reason to give them any. Exploiting every, any and all advantages is not really breaking the game, it is... Victory.
That's the joy of the series, when the AI is pretty much designed to be a huge asshole you don't feel bad for playing in a fashion that would break the game in any other RPG series.
So I started playing SMT IV after not having really picked it up since launch. Started over again and I've sort of hit a brick wall. I've encountered the
Minotaur Boss at the bottom of Naraku
and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
Minotaur is one of the bosses that act as a wake up call that hitting weaknesses isn't just a nice to have before the game opens up more. Your demons are very expendable until the very end and should be refused when they start to not pull their weight. SMT boss fights usually come down to being prepared to take advantage of a boss's weaknesses or attack strategy (eg, a physical absorb demon on a physical attack boss) more than raw power or trading blows.
So here's another question - when does it make sense to fuse demons? Should you wait until they've gotten all of their skills/demon whisper, or as soon as you can make something stronger?
If you don't need that skill or whisper, that's obviously not an issue. If you do, then you wait.
Otherwise as soon as you can make something stronger without having a hole in your team. If your magic biased demon with all your elemental damage spells or heals is going to fuse into a physical demon, you'll want to have something else that can take over the previous duties (though throwing some spells onto physical demons isn't a bad idea if they're effects that either work or don't).
Demons take longer to level up than you do and the more levels they gain compared to their base level the bigger this gap gets. They won't keep up with fresh demons. Much later you'll get demons where the next possible fusion is a good dozen levels or so higher so they'll stick around longer and have enough punch in the interim but that's much much later.
Edit: I also tend to fuse recruited demons sooner than ones that were fused themselves. Recruited demons just don't have many skills so they aren't anywhere near as versatile.
BTW that video from SMT3 is from an intentional lowest possible level run, so though that fight is a dick it's not going to be that much of a dick if you're playing the game normally.
I had one boss Flame Spin (crit), hit MC (crit), Flame Spin (crit), hit MC (crit) to kill me before I could move. I figured it wouldn't happen a second time, so I just reloaded and tried again. I was wrong.
Been playing a lot of FFX lately, and will be done with it when I plat it. Would this be a good game series for me knowing I'm a Final Fantasy fan? Is Persona 4 a good place to start? Will I be lost in the story or are the games kinda ok with not having played previous games in the series.
Been playing a lot of FFX lately, and will be done with it when I plat it. Would this be a good game series for me knowing I'm a Final Fantasy fan? Is Persona 4 a good place to start? Will I be lost in the story or are the games kinda ok with not having played previous games in the series.
The numbered Persona games are self contained. There are a few things tossed in for fans, but nothing that would stand out if you hadn't played previous games. The spinoffs (Arena, Dancing, Q) however are tied very closely to Persona 3 and 4.
Been playing a lot of FFX lately, and will be done with it when I plat it. Would this be a good game series for me knowing I'm a Final Fantasy fan? Is Persona 4 a good place to start? Will I be lost in the story or are the games kinda ok with not having played previous games in the series.
Persona 4 has some minor ties to 3, but nothing major. For the most part, the games are self-contained, so you'll be completely fine. The only thing that might give you some pause is that, if you ever did want to play 3 (which, according to popular opinion, has a better plot), you'd feel the absence of the gameplay improvements that were in 4.
Hope you enjoy it. It's one of my favorite games ever.
If you want to play 3 at some point, consider playing the PSP version. It doesn't have the animated cutscenes that the PS2 has, but you can control your party, which is a big improvement.
EDIT: I'm over 40 hours into Strange Journey and level 43. I'm doing quite well, did quite a few ex missions and enjoying the game (except for the areas where you can't see where your going). I'm currently in the 4th sector.
Been playing a lot of FFX lately, and will be done with it when I plat it. Would this be a good game series for me knowing I'm a Final Fantasy fan? Is Persona 4 a good place to start? Will I be lost in the story or are the games kinda ok with not having played previous games in the series.
I'd start on the PS2 games, specifically Nocturne/Digital Devil Saga before moving on to Persona 3, Strange Journey, Persona 4 Golden and SMTIV. They make a lot of quality of life changes in newer entries that make it hard to go backwards.
Been playing a lot of FFX lately, and will be done with it when I plat it. Would this be a good game series for me knowing I'm a Final Fantasy fan? Is Persona 4 a good place to start? Will I be lost in the story or are the games kinda ok with not having played previous games in the series.
I'd start on the PS2 games, specifically Nocturne/Digital Devil Saga before moving on to Persona 3, Strange Journey, Persona 4 Golden and SMTIV. They make a lot of quality of life changes in newer entries that make it hard to go backwards.
The problem here is that SMT games and Persona games are VERY different, espeically now. It's basically the difference between Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest: one is decidedly old-school (SMT), and the other tries new things (Persona, Devil Summoner). If you're looking for hardcore JRPG experiences, SMT core games are your jam. If you want JRPG with a twist, off-shoot SMT games are your best bet. Your mileage will always vary, so I'd recommend at least trying them out before you outright buy them.
I disagree. I went backwards. Persona 4 Golden is a really good entry point into the franchise.
I realize that will make a lot of the old-school purists upset, but it's true.
It's easier to get into difficulty-wise, but after P4G most other games are so archaic they're almost unplayable if you didn't grow up on early RPGs. The early Persona games are a fucking slog.
I'm enjoying Persona 2 well enough, but I can't speak to the original Persona because I haven't tried it yet.
Also, my opinion may be less relevant since I did in fact grow up on hardcore JRPGs (I'm 32 now) but I have since grown very tired of them, so...
Anyway, it's a risk either way. Somebody plays one of the earlier installments and can't get into it at all so they might miss out on the accessibility of later installments, or somebody plays P4G and finds one of the earlier installments a complete chore in comparison.
I disagree. I went backwards. Persona 4 Golden is a really good entry point into the franchise.
I realize that will make a lot of the old-school purists upset, but it's true.
It's easier to get into difficulty-wise, but after P4G most other games are so archaic they're almost unplayable if you didn't grow up on early RPGs. The early Persona games are a fucking slog.
I think there's room for both old and new SMT games. You just have to do your homework and understand what you're getting into beforehand. If someone plays P4G, then buys SMT4 expecting the same kind of game, it's their fault for not looking into it. Atlus has been pretty good about sticking with a series formula once it starts (Persona notwithstanding). I don't like core SMT as much as Persona or Devil Summoner games, but in terms of old-school JRPG gameplay they are the standard I would compare anything similar to.
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
Not quite. It's more like if Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest had an umbrella title they were under. If you saw that title on a game, you'd know you'd be getting a fantasy RPG but then the next title in, if it existed, would tell you if you were getting pretty boys and crystals or puns and more puns. When you pick up an SMT game, you know you're getting demons as a core mechanic of some sort. After that, it breaks down.
Mainline SMT: Post apocalyptic with magic and sometimes touches of cyberpunk but no cyborgs. Demons are party members for your human(ish) main character.
Persona: Young people in a more modern setting. Demons are like Final Fantasy Espers and party members are people.
Devil Summoner: First two games are like near future cyberpunk minus the cyborgs, last two are action RPGs set in 1920s Japan so demons as party members against a kimono and flapper backdrop.
Devil Surivor: Strategy RPGs. You get to experience the demon apocalypse.
Digital Devil Saga: Post apocalyptic with more stuff wiped out. Think Mad Max but instead of leather and helmet gangs you and the other wasteland gangs are more nicely dressed before something turns you all into weird human demon hybrids. The staple demons of the series don't have much role.
Those are the main ones you'll see us discuss here.
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
Kind of. There are similarities that tie all of the series together, but in terms of gameplay, story, and mechanics they can be quite different.
The main line consists of SMT, SMT II, SMT III, and SMT IV.
The first two of those were originally only released in Japan on the Super Famicon. (The first has received an English translation and been released on iOS.) Don't start with either of these...
SMT III came out under the subtitle Nocturne in North America and Japan and Lucifer's Call in Europe. It came out for the PS2 and is a completely rad game for cool people. Like all of the main line titles, it deals with a post-apocalyptic Tokyo that's been overrun with (both friendly and unfriendly) demons. The story is relatively minimal compared to what you might expect from a Final Fantasy game, but it's also tons of fun to play and features a rich and engaging story if you look a bit below the surface.
SMT IV came out recently for the 3DS, and I'm sure someone who owns a 3DS would be happy to tell you about it.
As far as spinoffs go, there are a few.
The most notable one is Persona.
The original Persona came out for the Playstation, and it came out in North America as Revelations: Persona. It featured a ton of missing content and a super racist translation. It's skippable. (Though, @Blackjack did an amusing let's play of it that's worth a look.) A few years back Atlus rereleased it for the PSP, updating the translation and restoring missing content in the process. (They also gave it worse music... c'est la vie.) It's worth a play, though I would recommend Persona 3 as a better starting point to the series.
Persona 2 also came out for the Playstation and like the first one the English translated versions features a ton of missing content, most notably the first damn half of the game. While Persona 2 was a two part affair in Japan, only the second half of the story, Eternal Punishment, was translated into English. A few years back, however, Innocent Sin (the first part) was translated into English and brought to the PSP. Eternal Punishment was given the PSP rerelease treatment as well but only in Japan. Both of these games are easily playable by modern standards and some of us would argue more interesting than Persona 3 and 4.
Persona 3 is the one that everyone went crazy over. Released for the PS2 and then later the PSP and PS3 (as a PS2 classic), Persona 3 bolted a high school sim mechanic onto a dungeon crawler in which students repeatedly shoot themselves in the head to summon demons. If that last sentence doesn't excite you, I don't know what will.
Persona 4 is a more polished experience of what we got in P3. The core mechanics are the same with a few improvements and a new coat of polish. It originally came out for the PS2, but it's also been released for the PS3 recently as a PS2 classic, and there's also a Vita version that handheld people seem to like.
Devil Summoner is an action RPG spinoff that features Radiou Kuzunoha, all around bad ass detective guy. The first game with an English translation is Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army (for real, it's a long title). Have you ever wanted a game with demons you could interact with who would steal your money, your health, and then leave you to die? Have you ever wondered what an action RPG set in an early 20th century Tokyo would look like? Have you thought to yourself that there should be more games where you use a sword and a gun? How about games where you talk to a cat that helps you solve mysteries? Well, there's a game that was just released as a PS2 classic on PS3 that fulfills all of that criteria.
There is also a sequel that came out for PS2. I guess it might also be a PS3 classic one day.
The other spinoff that isn't too hard to get a hold of is Digital Devil Saga.
Take the general mechanics from Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and fuse them with a healthy dose of Vedic scripture taking place in a post-apocalyptic junkyard, and you have the glory that is Digital Devil Saga. The battle mechanics are similar to those of Nocturne with the notable exception that you play humans who can transform into demons. Consume others in battle to upgrade your abilities and lead your gang to Nirvana.
I know a lot of us on the board love this one, and I think @Drez (maybe?) once said that he considered it the best story gaming has to tell. It's definitely worth the love it gets, and both parts of the story (DDS and DDS2) were repressed by Atlus a while back, meaning you don't have to spend $80 on ebay for a copy anymore.
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
All the games feature the same overarching cast of demons/otherworldly creatures in the background.
SMT: Major world-changing events, and the plot affects the fate of the cosmos. The subtext is between control (order) and freedom (chaos), with the backdrop of YHWH vs. Lucifer. Basically, all religions and myths are true, for a given value of true (there's a lot of overlap), but Christianity has the upper hand at the moment, though there's something more powerful out there (the "Great Will") that doesn't get mentioned much.
Persona: Much more locale-centered, with ensemble casts. Even though lots of creepy stuff happens, the threat is much more about saving the town (with the side effect of saving the world while you're at it). Demons and religion aren't necessarily true, though in P3/P4 the individual "monsters" instead represent portions of the human psyche that you're wearing at certain points.
Devil Summoner: Individual threats to humanity involving the paranormal. Demons are just kind of there, and the supernatural world is alongside the human one, even if humans can't see it.
GNU Terry Pratchett
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
To add onto that, if you really want to get meta, there's some SMT/Persona/Devil Summoner overlap thanks to If...'s Tamaki, a devil summoner from If who appears in Persona 1 & 2.
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
So yeah I don't really need to explain it anymore, as I think the multiple explanations give you a decent start on what to expect. There's a lot of mixed feelings about what's the better series or better game, but most of us here all have a shared love for the SMT universe and have pretty much worked passed any 'stop liking what I don't like' bullshit you might see elsewhere.
I'd say the biggest reason why people love the series associated with SMT so much is that they all feel similar despite gameplay and setting being radically different at times. I think this boils down to Atlus having some of the same devs working on the SMT franchise pretty much since its inception. Shoji Meguro makes most of their bitching music, Shigenori Soejima and Kazuma Kaneko give the humans and demons their unique look. I honestly think the games wouldn't be the same if they didn't have some of these guys making the art and music so awesome.
Thanks for all the commentary guys, but I guess I don't understand what the difference between SMT, Persona and Devil Summoner and all that is. They're all under the SMT umbrella right? Kind of like Final Fantasy has its name on many things?
I've only played Persona 3, Persona 4, and SMT4, but here's my take on the different series
SMT is focused on themes of order and chaos and a world-scale plot. You recruit and fuse demons as party members, and there are hundreds of them. Combat is very offense-oriented (especially in 4, which has no defense stat). They have a more classic RPG feel
Persona has a smaller scale plot and a stronger cast of characters. You have a more traditionally structured party, with permanent party members with their own equipment, but the main character can find and fuse personas to change his own stats and abilities. The biggest difference, however, is that you spend a lot of time outside of combat areas. Here, the game takes on a strong social sim element, where you meet people and build up your social links, which, in turn, enhances your ability to fuse new personas.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Got through the forest revisited. Do I hate myself enough to do Pandora tonight? I don't know if I want to endure that level of suffering in one day. And its the one save point version, too.
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and he's just beating the hell out of me. I know he's weak to Ice, and unfortunately I only have one demon with Bufu (I'll probably go back and pick up some more at this point). Things seem to go reasonably well, but then I'll just have a turn where he'll kill Flynn from full health and/or several party members, also from full health. I don't think I'm underleveled for this area (level 13), so is this fight a little overtuned or am I just doing something wrong? Have wiped about 4 times now.
If you haven't fused new Demons to take full advantage of a bosses weaknesses, you are doing it wrong. Go fuse some demons and the rest should take care of itself.
So basically I should expect to go into a boss fight with at least 3 demons that can hit a boss' weakness, is what you're saying? I guess I'm asking how the game is balanced; is it that the game is challenging at a certain level but made easy by seriously exploiting weakness, or that the game is balanced around having 3-4 party members hit a weakness in a turn and doing less than that is just asking to get crushed?
You're misunderstanding; fully exploiting a boss's weakness is to prevent you from getting ANNIHILATED. The less turns a boss can move, the better; especially when bosses generally get multiple press turns to compensate for the fact that there's only one of 'em. Not to mention that due to the fact that there is no actual armor rating in this game, your party can easily be wiped out at any point in time, so keep that in mind.
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Yeah, boss fights are built around exploiting bosses weaknesses. You can bypass that by severely overleveling before you face the boss, but if you're trying to keep things at a "fair" level, you want to do your best to maximize exploiting boss weaknesses. Think of Boss battles as Puzzle Fights, not standard RPG fights. If you put the right pieces in place to exploit the boss's weaknesses, you win. If you don't, you lose.
Minotaur is one of the bosses that act as a wake up call that hitting weaknesses isn't just a nice to have before the game opens up more. Your demons are very expendable until the very end and should be refused when they start to not pull their weight. SMT boss fights usually come down to being prepared to take advantage of a boss's weaknesses or attack strategy (eg, a physical absorb demon on a physical attack boss) more than raw power or trading blows.
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Because you give SMT bosses half a chance and they do stupid stuff like:
That's the joy of the series, when the AI is pretty much designed to be a huge asshole you don't feel bad for playing in a fashion that would break the game in any other RPG series.
So here's another question - when does it make sense to fuse demons? Should you wait until they've gotten all of their skills/demon whisper, or as soon as you can make something stronger?
Hah. I had Pierce when I did the Diet Building so.... all those bosses were a joke.
Demifiend LAUGHS at your physical immunity and punches you in the face.
Edit: Oh, a tip for fighting any boss that has Adds in a Press Turn SMT game. Keep them alive, but Petrify or otherwise make them useless. Proceed to laugh as half the boss' turns are wasted.
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Okay that was hilarious.
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If you don't need that skill or whisper, that's obviously not an issue. If you do, then you wait.
Otherwise as soon as you can make something stronger without having a hole in your team. If your magic biased demon with all your elemental damage spells or heals is going to fuse into a physical demon, you'll want to have something else that can take over the previous duties (though throwing some spells onto physical demons isn't a bad idea if they're effects that either work or don't).
Demons take longer to level up than you do and the more levels they gain compared to their base level the bigger this gap gets. They won't keep up with fresh demons. Much later you'll get demons where the next possible fusion is a good dozen levels or so higher so they'll stick around longer and have enough punch in the interim but that's much much later.
Edit: I also tend to fuse recruited demons sooner than ones that were fused themselves. Recruited demons just don't have many skills so they aren't anywhere near as versatile.
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Definitely, but your margin of failure is likely to be wider than "he uses megidolaon more than once".
The numbered Persona games are self contained. There are a few things tossed in for fans, but nothing that would stand out if you hadn't played previous games. The spinoffs (Arena, Dancing, Q) however are tied very closely to Persona 3 and 4.
Persona 4 has some minor ties to 3, but nothing major. For the most part, the games are self-contained, so you'll be completely fine. The only thing that might give you some pause is that, if you ever did want to play 3 (which, according to popular opinion, has a better plot), you'd feel the absence of the gameplay improvements that were in 4.
Hope you enjoy it. It's one of my favorite games ever.
EDIT: I'm over 40 hours into Strange Journey and level 43. I'm doing quite well, did quite a few ex missions and enjoying the game (except for the areas where you can't see where your going). I'm currently in the 4th sector.
I'd start on the PS2 games, specifically Nocturne/Digital Devil Saga before moving on to Persona 3, Strange Journey, Persona 4 Golden and SMTIV. They make a lot of quality of life changes in newer entries that make it hard to go backwards.
I realize that will make a lot of the old-school purists upset, but it's true.
The problem here is that SMT games and Persona games are VERY different, espeically now. It's basically the difference between Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest: one is decidedly old-school (SMT), and the other tries new things (Persona, Devil Summoner). If you're looking for hardcore JRPG experiences, SMT core games are your jam. If you want JRPG with a twist, off-shoot SMT games are your best bet. Your mileage will always vary, so I'd recommend at least trying them out before you outright buy them.
It's easier to get into difficulty-wise, but after P4G most other games are so archaic they're almost unplayable if you didn't grow up on early RPGs. The early Persona games are a fucking slog.
Also, my opinion may be less relevant since I did in fact grow up on hardcore JRPGs (I'm 32 now) but I have since grown very tired of them, so...
Anyway, it's a risk either way. Somebody plays one of the earlier installments and can't get into it at all so they might miss out on the accessibility of later installments, or somebody plays P4G and finds one of the earlier installments a complete chore in comparison.
I think there's room for both old and new SMT games. You just have to do your homework and understand what you're getting into beforehand. If someone plays P4G, then buys SMT4 expecting the same kind of game, it's their fault for not looking into it. Atlus has been pretty good about sticking with a series formula once it starts (Persona notwithstanding). I don't like core SMT as much as Persona or Devil Summoner games, but in terms of old-school JRPG gameplay they are the standard I would compare anything similar to.
Not quite. It's more like if Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest had an umbrella title they were under. If you saw that title on a game, you'd know you'd be getting a fantasy RPG but then the next title in, if it existed, would tell you if you were getting pretty boys and crystals or puns and more puns. When you pick up an SMT game, you know you're getting demons as a core mechanic of some sort. After that, it breaks down.
Mainline SMT: Post apocalyptic with magic and sometimes touches of cyberpunk but no cyborgs. Demons are party members for your human(ish) main character.
Persona: Young people in a more modern setting. Demons are like Final Fantasy Espers and party members are people.
Devil Summoner: First two games are like near future cyberpunk minus the cyborgs, last two are action RPGs set in 1920s Japan so demons as party members against a kimono and flapper backdrop.
Devil Surivor: Strategy RPGs. You get to experience the demon apocalypse.
Digital Devil Saga: Post apocalyptic with more stuff wiped out. Think Mad Max but instead of leather and helmet gangs you and the other wasteland gangs are more nicely dressed before something turns you all into weird human demon hybrids. The staple demons of the series don't have much role.
Those are the main ones you'll see us discuss here.
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Kind of. There are similarities that tie all of the series together, but in terms of gameplay, story, and mechanics they can be quite different.
The main line consists of SMT, SMT II, SMT III, and SMT IV.
The first two of those were originally only released in Japan on the Super Famicon. (The first has received an English translation and been released on iOS.) Don't start with either of these...
SMT III came out under the subtitle Nocturne in North America and Japan and Lucifer's Call in Europe. It came out for the PS2 and is a completely rad game for cool people. Like all of the main line titles, it deals with a post-apocalyptic Tokyo that's been overrun with (both friendly and unfriendly) demons. The story is relatively minimal compared to what you might expect from a Final Fantasy game, but it's also tons of fun to play and features a rich and engaging story if you look a bit below the surface.
SMT IV came out recently for the 3DS, and I'm sure someone who owns a 3DS would be happy to tell you about it.
As far as spinoffs go, there are a few.
The most notable one is Persona.
The original Persona came out for the Playstation, and it came out in North America as Revelations: Persona. It featured a ton of missing content and a super racist translation. It's skippable. (Though, @Blackjack did an amusing let's play of it that's worth a look.) A few years back Atlus rereleased it for the PSP, updating the translation and restoring missing content in the process. (They also gave it worse music... c'est la vie.) It's worth a play, though I would recommend Persona 3 as a better starting point to the series.
Persona 2 also came out for the Playstation and like the first one the English translated versions features a ton of missing content, most notably the first damn half of the game. While Persona 2 was a two part affair in Japan, only the second half of the story, Eternal Punishment, was translated into English. A few years back, however, Innocent Sin (the first part) was translated into English and brought to the PSP. Eternal Punishment was given the PSP rerelease treatment as well but only in Japan. Both of these games are easily playable by modern standards and some of us would argue more interesting than Persona 3 and 4.
Persona 3 is the one that everyone went crazy over. Released for the PS2 and then later the PSP and PS3 (as a PS2 classic), Persona 3 bolted a high school sim mechanic onto a dungeon crawler in which students repeatedly shoot themselves in the head to summon demons. If that last sentence doesn't excite you, I don't know what will.
Persona 4 is a more polished experience of what we got in P3. The core mechanics are the same with a few improvements and a new coat of polish. It originally came out for the PS2, but it's also been released for the PS3 recently as a PS2 classic, and there's also a Vita version that handheld people seem to like.
Devil Summoner is an action RPG spinoff that features Radiou Kuzunoha, all around bad ass detective guy. The first game with an English translation is Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army (for real, it's a long title). Have you ever wanted a game with demons you could interact with who would steal your money, your health, and then leave you to die? Have you ever wondered what an action RPG set in an early 20th century Tokyo would look like? Have you thought to yourself that there should be more games where you use a sword and a gun? How about games where you talk to a cat that helps you solve mysteries? Well, there's a game that was just released as a PS2 classic on PS3 that fulfills all of that criteria.
There is also a sequel that came out for PS2. I guess it might also be a PS3 classic one day.
The other spinoff that isn't too hard to get a hold of is Digital Devil Saga.
Take the general mechanics from Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne and fuse them with a healthy dose of Vedic scripture taking place in a post-apocalyptic junkyard, and you have the glory that is Digital Devil Saga. The battle mechanics are similar to those of Nocturne with the notable exception that you play humans who can transform into demons. Consume others in battle to upgrade your abilities and lead your gang to Nirvana.
I know a lot of us on the board love this one, and I think @Drez (maybe?) once said that he considered it the best story gaming has to tell. It's definitely worth the love it gets, and both parts of the story (DDS and DDS2) were repressed by Atlus a while back, meaning you don't have to spend $80 on ebay for a copy anymore.
All the games feature the same overarching cast of demons/otherworldly creatures in the background.
SMT: Major world-changing events, and the plot affects the fate of the cosmos. The subtext is between control (order) and freedom (chaos), with the backdrop of YHWH vs. Lucifer. Basically, all religions and myths are true, for a given value of true (there's a lot of overlap), but Christianity has the upper hand at the moment, though there's something more powerful out there (the "Great Will") that doesn't get mentioned much.
Persona: Much more locale-centered, with ensemble casts. Even though lots of creepy stuff happens, the threat is much more about saving the town (with the side effect of saving the world while you're at it). Demons and religion aren't necessarily true, though in P3/P4 the individual "monsters" instead represent portions of the human psyche that you're wearing at certain points.
Devil Summoner: Individual threats to humanity involving the paranormal. Demons are just kind of there, and the supernatural world is alongside the human one, even if humans can't see it.
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She could've been a fun optional boss, too.
So yeah I don't really need to explain it anymore, as I think the multiple explanations give you a decent start on what to expect. There's a lot of mixed feelings about what's the better series or better game, but most of us here all have a shared love for the SMT universe and have pretty much worked passed any 'stop liking what I don't like' bullshit you might see elsewhere.
I'd say the biggest reason why people love the series associated with SMT so much is that they all feel similar despite gameplay and setting being radically different at times. I think this boils down to Atlus having some of the same devs working on the SMT franchise pretty much since its inception. Shoji Meguro makes most of their bitching music, Shigenori Soejima and Kazuma Kaneko give the humans and demons their unique look. I honestly think the games wouldn't be the same if they didn't have some of these guys making the art and music so awesome.
I've only played Persona 3, Persona 4, and SMT4, but here's my take on the different series
SMT is focused on themes of order and chaos and a world-scale plot. You recruit and fuse demons as party members, and there are hundreds of them. Combat is very offense-oriented (especially in 4, which has no defense stat). They have a more classic RPG feel
Persona has a smaller scale plot and a stronger cast of characters. You have a more traditionally structured party, with permanent party members with their own equipment, but the main character can find and fuse personas to change his own stats and abilities. The biggest difference, however, is that you spend a lot of time outside of combat areas. Here, the game takes on a strong social sim element, where you meet people and build up your social links, which, in turn, enhances your ability to fuse new personas.