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[EverQuest Next] Details revealed. Press embargo ended. Beta registration open.

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  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited August 2013

    You know what? Honest to god, this is all smacking of Spore. Remember how we all felt BEFORE Spore came out? PROCEDURAL CONTENT! TRUE EVOLUTION! BUILD WHATEVER YOU WANT! CREATE CIVILIZATIONS!

    And then Spore actually came out :|

    Well, to be clear, Spore was bad because of shitty execution, and them deciding that Spore should be a compilation of "Baby's first xyz genre" calibur games. There's nothing fundamentally flawed about the idea of building a game around the idea of user generated and procedural content, and I think these guys are a lot more committed to making a game with actual meaty mechanics than Maxis ever was.

    Scosglen on
    CorehealerPoolCue
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    If they just released Everquest 3, and all it was was somewhere between Guild Wars 2 and Everquest, it'd never get anywhere. The market is fucking glutted with action bar MMO's that follow the old formula.

    I give them, like, a 0% chance to accomplish the things they're currently talking about. That said, they should still come out with something somewhat different from what's on the market now, and that's all I ask for.

    What is this I don't even.
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  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    The fact that they're trying something radically different alone is enough to root for them. The MMO genre has become incredibly stale in the past 10 years.

    Even if it turns out like Spore, it will have been a noble effort.

    DarmakSeidkonaCorehealerAxenPolaritieDelphinidaesPoolCueElvenshaeAvynte
  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    JesDer wrote: »
    Roe wrote: »
    One things for sure, there are a lot of pissed off fans.

    They are pissed off because they wanted another EverQuest game .. This is not an EverQuest game.... And honestly, this is a good thing.


    There is nothing wrong with this. World of Warcraft took a lot of inspiration from Everquest, it just had an insane amount of polish, a great UI, and UI modding from the start. Iterative improvement on great mechanics leaves you with...great mechanics that are still fun, and polished to a high sheen.

    I'm trying to avoid getting too excited about this, but I did lose 5 years of my life to hardcore EQ raiding. We'll see if they can deliver on their promises, but considering they actually had playable demonstrations at this speech is a very good sign of how far along they are.

    I didn't say there was anything wrong with it .. I just don't like George saying no one has done these things before.

    I hated WoW because it wast anything new. I had played that game fore years and I just couldn't get into it. I ended up in EQ2 and loved it because of its complexities. Now I want something different and I think EQN might be that game but I am not going to pretend these Holy Grail systems are anything new even if they are more refined than other examples.

    Sure, other games have done those things before but I can't think of one off the top of my head that's done them together, and hopefully with the level of polish and care that the EQN devs suggest they're giving it. Now there's still the matter of them actually executing each holy grail as well as they say they will, but we won't know about that until we get our hands on it. Until then, I am just excited about what they're saying they want to do and their vision for the game.

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  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    You can't always reinvent the wheel, but you can polish it to a sunny sheen and use it to present the player with a hearty content feast if you do it right.

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  • eelektrikeelektrik Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    Corehealer wrote: »
    You can't always reinvent the wheel, but you can polish it to a sunny sheen and use it to present the player with a hearty content feast if you do it right.

    Or you can combine multiple wheels into a more functional vehicle. Too many MMOs are just unicycles.

    (She/Her)
    SeidkonaDarmakArthilCorehealerDelphinidaesBoatload Of SuckElvenshae
  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    Honestly, all this new fangled class and skill stuff sounds interesting, but to be frank, I just need one class (Monk) and one skill (Feign Death) and there isn't a single thing I care about any more.

    (Well, I'll take Mend if it's available too, but whatever~)

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  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    With regards to class, I kind of want to keep playing a druid but maybe throw in some warrior shit too. Like plate armor and taunts and tanky stuff, but also have the jack-of-all-trades, nature-worshiping, spellcasting goodness of the druid too. I don't know exactly how they're planning on having multiple classes and their skills work out, so hopefully their panel today on classes will explain a bit more.

    JtgVX0H.png
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Random thoughts;

    I'd like to point out that their Emergent AI system is not a creation of SOE, they're merely licensing it from a third party. Awhile back a group of programmers came together and started a Kickstarter for their crazy AI system called Storybricks. It is stupid easy to use and you can create very complex things. On that same note, IIRC, SOE has already prototyped the system in EQ2 with one of their latest content patches (or expansion or whatever). So at the very least they know the system works.

    Everything is made of voxels huh? Neat I guess. I mean if it allows for destructible environments then hell yeah I am all for it.

    I don't mind the art style, but I certainly wasn't expecting it. It does look pretty though.

    I may be mistaken, but it sounds like you can dress however you wish. Not sure if it restricts by class or not (mages always in light armor, warriors in heavy).

    Being able to mix and match different pieces of weapons sounds awesome. I also saw flails on that concept art for weapons. I <3 flails. :D

    The class system sounds fairly Final Fantasy XI/XIV-ish to me, which is a good thing IMHO.

    All in all I am quietly excited, we shall see how to plays out. At the very least I already know I will day one this barring any insane upheavals.

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    EverQuest Next: Monk Punching Trees Not Minecraft Edition.

    I just want to punch trees. I want to be the very best tree puncher.

    Origin: HaxtonWasHere
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    Spectrum
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    How much wood would a woodmonk punch if a woodmonk could punch wood?

    488W936.png
    gjaustinElvenshaeMiniwolfBullhead
  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Oh. Darn. Interest rapidly declining.
    http://www.eqnexus.com/2013/08/soe-live-day-3-everquest-next-class-system/
    • No dedicated tank or healer roles in group play. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. Combat model will not support that type of play.
    • Raids do not require specific classes or roles

    So group play is like Guild Wars 2 group play (the worst thing in all of Guild Wars 2) and "raids" are like.... Guild Wars 2's zergy group events? Bleh. I think this game might not be the droids I'm looking for.

    Kid Presentable on
  • RoeRoe Always to the East Registered User regular
    Oh. Darn. Interest rapidly declining.
    http://www.eqnexus.com/2013/08/soe-live-day-3-everquest-next-class-system/
    • No dedicated tank or healer roles in group play. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. Combat model will not support that type of play.
    • Raids do not require specific classes or roles

    So group play is like Guild Wars 2 group play (the worst thing in all of Guild Wars 2) and "raids" are like.... Guild Wars 2's zergy group events? Bleh. I think this game might not be the droids I'm looking for.

    I'm pretty sure it will work if implemented correctly . Right now we have destructible landscape and voxels, no hands on previews or beta.

    oHw5R0V.jpg
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I will reserve judgment until I see it. It does make me wary, though. I don't think their raids are going to be like traditional raids, from what they've been saying. Raiding in EQNext sounds a little like "guys, there's a fucking dragon pounding down Qeynos' gates. We should probably do something about that. Invite 20 more people so we can kill this thing."

    Unlike GW2, where you can be fighting a dragon with like ten people and still win. From the hints the EQNext devs have been dropping, it sounds like the monsters will not be scaling up or down like they do in GW2, they will be super strong and you'd better have 30+ people or you're gonna have a bad time.

    Spawnbroker on
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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    We're a long ways out on release too -- so they can promise all they want. But a year from now they may have a more finished game and find out it's just not very fun in execution and change it up. We'll see.

  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I guess but I really hope they don't dump that multiclass leveless system. It's probably just as exciting to me as the destroyable world.

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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    I'm actually excited for the abandonment of the holy trinity, especially with what they are saying about a multi-class leveless system in what is essentially a dynamic world.

    I feel like that will make the game more focused on exploration than progression, which personally is my favorite thing to do anyways. Having a world that will constantly change means it will be a fresh experience for me each time I revisit areas I thought I had explored already.

    Granted it's all promises at this point but I like that that is something they are seemingly focusing on.

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  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    I just don't know how (or why) you make an MMORPG that doesn't feature compelling group play, and I don't know how you make group play worth a damn without some defined party roles. All the best multiplayer games where you are playing with other people have roles, even shooters. There's a reason for this. Team Fortress 2 wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was just Soldiers, Pyros, and Demomen.

  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I just don't know how (or why) you make an MMORPG that doesn't feature compelling group play, and I don't know how you make group play worth a damn without some defined party roles. All the best multiplayer games where you are playing with other people have roles, even shooters. There's a reason for this. Team Fortress 2 wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was just Soldiers, Pyros, and Demomen.

    UO and Asheron's Call are knocking on the door. They probably want to make you eat your words. :p

    Edit: I think I hear a drunken Minecraft in the background too.

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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    I just don't know how (or why) you make an MMORPG that doesn't feature compelling group play, and I don't know how you make group play worth a damn without some defined party roles. All the best multiplayer games where you are playing with other people have roles, even shooters. There's a reason for this. Team Fortress 2 wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was just Soldiers, Pyros, and Demomen.

    Hmm, never had a problem grouping with people in GW2, I think you can making grouping fun and compelling without resorting to roles. If anything it allows you to group with more people because you aren't restricted to roles (Sorry guys, already have a healer, you'll have to sit this party out)

    I don't agree that grouping is dependent on predetermined roles that need to be filled. It certainly forces it by having roles, but you don't need it.

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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    The problem is that the average player is woefully unprepared to watch their own butts. They need someone to babysit them and keep them alive. So given a game where everyone needs to watch out for themselves ... theres gonna be a lot of dead people...

  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    JediNight wrote: »
    The problem is that the average player is woefully unprepared to watch their own butts. They need someone to babysit them and keep them alive. So given a game where everyone needs to watch out for themselves ... theres gonna be a lot of dead people...

    Perhaps, but more likely than not players will get the hang of it and do just fine. Granted this all depends on how it's implemented but there are game that exist that have systems like this that works just fine.

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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    I guess I'm less than optimistic about people "not standing in fire" if they haven't learned how in the last decade+ ;)

  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    By why does that one type of group play (the trinity) have to be the only compelling type of group play there is? I mean wow really set a lot of that up with their game design and while it's been convenient and has worked well for them there were games before and after that that did just fine without it.

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  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't know how (or why) you make an MMORPG that doesn't feature compelling group play, and I don't know how you make group play worth a damn without some defined party roles. All the best multiplayer games where you are playing with other people have roles, even shooters. There's a reason for this. Team Fortress 2 wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was just Soldiers, Pyros, and Demomen.

    UO and Asheron's Call are knocking on the door. They probably want to make you eat your words. :p

    Edit: I think I hear a drunken Minecraft in the background too.
    These are poor examples.

    I know of next to nobody who ever grouped in Asheron's Call, beyond the occasional duo in a dungeon. UO barely even had a grouping system at all (and was a huge mess of loot permissions). Minecraft groups in combat situations are a lot of people spamming attacks and trying not to hit each other with friendly fire.

    The biggest problem with a game that lacks defined group roles but includes group content that doesn't require anyone to fill those roles is that it basically becomes a massive challenge to design any encounter that's remotely interesting. Without some kind of aggro management, things like bosses just turn to whoever, which means you can't put in any mechanics that require the boss be positioned in a certain way. You can't put debuffs that need to be removed, because there's no guarantee you'll have someone capable of removing it. Stuff like that goes completely out the window, so all you're left with are add waves and "don't stand in the fire".

    Neverwinter is a good example of this kind of bland design. Its classes only loosely fit certain group roles, and everyone's expected to take care of themselves. Guess what every single boss in the game does? Single-target attack. Point-blank AoE attack. Ranged "fire" to get out of. Adds.

    Encounters in games like that inevitably turn into nothing but boring DPS races.

    korodullin on
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  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    They were compelling instances of game play that all have or had social backdrops that are/were very rich is all I was saying. There's more to a game than how we can tailor the boss encounters.

    If the game truly becomes about exploring this grand destroyable world and dealing with problems in unique ways like dropping bridges from under your opponents I really don't see how that's boring.

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  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    korodullin wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't know how (or why) you make an MMORPG that doesn't feature compelling group play, and I don't know how you make group play worth a damn without some defined party roles. All the best multiplayer games where you are playing with other people have roles, even shooters. There's a reason for this. Team Fortress 2 wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it was just Soldiers, Pyros, and Demomen.

    UO and Asheron's Call are knocking on the door. They probably want to make you eat your words. :p

    Edit: I think I hear a drunken Minecraft in the background too.
    These are poor examples.

    I know of next to nobody who ever grouped in Asheron's Call, beyond the occasional duo in a dungeon. UO barely even had a grouping system at all (and was a huge mess of loot permissions). Minecraft groups in combat situations are a lot of people spamming attacks and trying not to hit each other with friendly fire.

    The biggest problem with a game that lacks defined group roles but includes group content that doesn't require anyone to fill those roles is that it basically becomes a massive challenge to design any encounter that's remotely interesting. Without some kind of aggro management, things like bosses just turn to whoever, which means you can't put in any mechanics that require the boss be positioned in a certain way. You can't put debuffs that need to be removed, because there's no guarantee you'll have someone capable of removing it. Stuff like that goes completely out the window, so all you're left with are add waves and "don't stand in the fire".

    Neverwinter is a good example of this kind of bland design. Its classes only loosely fit certain group roles, and everyone's expected to take care of themselves. Guess what every single boss in the game does? Single-target attack. Point-blank AoE attack. Ranged "fire" to get out of. Adds.

    Encounters in games like that inevitably turn into nothing but boring DPS races.

    You've hit on a lot of great points. World of Warcraft used the trinity because EverQuest used the trinity because RPGs in general used the trinity because Dungeons and Dragons used the trinity because ... Tolkien? Okay maybe Lord of the Rings didn't have a healer. Point is, there's a reason this type of gameplay has stuck around. Especially in multiplayer games that are greatly improved by social interaction, the existence of defined roles is what forces you to get out there and interact with people around you. EverQuest Next right now is sounding like a super awesome single-player game where sometimes some other dudes will be running around doing the thing that I'm doing. It will probably be fun for a little while. But when everybody is basically entirely self-sufficient, I don't really have to play with them.

    Kid Presentable on
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Everquest didn't really use the trinity. The trinity in Everquest, where the term comes from, were three classes that could always get a group when everyone else had to wait.

    And those classes represented Tank, Healer and CC. . .

    As far as DnD goes you really didn't have to have any kind of trinity because if you had a good GM they'd tailor the encounter to match what you had in the group. I never felt like there were must have classes when I played. . .

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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Yeah, I rolled Enchanter at release of EQ1, and kind of lucked out I guess. Because nobody even really knew what they were capable of at first. Hell, I didn't even know what Mez did until like L22 or so. And at L29 when I got Clarity .. I wonder what this does? Oh MP regen ... suddenly every group wanted me ;)

  • korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    Going back and actually reading that EQNexus article, I noticed a few things that make the original cherry-picked bullet points seem not as bad:
    • You can still play specific roles within combat, and some classes can be built to tend toward support, defensive, etc.
    • Players perform roles in combat and customize their abilities to trend their class towards things like tank or support, but you will not build a class that ONLY has tank abilities and have that as a required tank class for every group.
    • Utility classes will be rewarded for their efforts.

    This is a good bit better, but it doesn't completely square with "raids do not require specific classes or roles". If you don't need a tank, then there's no point in tank abilities existing, and so on.

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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    It sounds like it's creative wording then. You don't need a SPECIFIC class ... but you're going to .... heavily want... someone with defensive abilities to hold the attention of enemies I would assume. I wonder if EQ1 style CC is going to make an appearance again. I originally wanted to play a Priest in WoW because of their talk about them having a Sleep spell and other stuff that made them sound similar to Enchanter in EQ. Only to find that at release they had removed most of the CC and Priest was a pretty boring healer.

  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    I'm fine with needing someone who has a specific skillset but what I am happy about is that in this game I can go pick up that skill set if I want it and change it if I no longer want to do that.

    I'm still anti-trinity but I can see that meshing with a world where there are 40 classes and having some of them be capable of things you might need in specific circumstances while still having it be fun and engaging without the need of the one guy who take damage and the other guy who heals that damage.

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  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Diablo is a pretty fun game to play in groups and there is no concept of "I am the healer and you are the tank and these guys do the DPS". You can make your character tankier or more support oriented or whatever you like, and I'm sure EQN will be exactly the same in that regard. Non-trinity systems aren't so much about abolishing the ideas of tankiness or healing or damage so much as it is about removing the hard restrictions on what one player can do, and letting everyone spontaneously fill those roles to varying degrees of success, i.e. you will still really want a party with heals but you might not need to bring a "Cleric", accepting no substitutes. Maybe you wind up with a Wizard that has some Bard type song healing and a Ranger with some light heal spells instead and that's sufficient.

    I think casual grouping in GW2 is super fun honestly. One of the best things that game ever did was design itself so that you can roll around in the overworld and play spontaneously with other people and you never have to worry about if there's room in their party or if they need another Thief or whatever bullshit presents itself in other games.

    The fact that GW2's more focused dungeon content isn't very good and the raid bosses ended up being underwhelming zergfests on stationary setpieces has nothing to do with a non-trifecta system being fundamentally bad.

    I also don't follow this argument that you will not want to play with other people just because you don't need to fill some quota of class roles when you go out to kill stuff. Nothing about a non-trifecta system also necessitates that group play won't be more lucrative than solo play, or that solo play even has to be possible if the content is too hard for one person.

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  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    One of the saddest things in MMO's has been the move away from viable CC options. I blame all this PvP focus.

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  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    This is one of the reasons I really hope EQN avoids factoring PvP into any balance or gameplay decisions. Opens you up to way more cool possibilities for PvE.

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  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    Scosglen wrote: »
    Diablo is a pretty fun game to play in groups and there is no concept of "I am the healer and you are the tank and these guys do the DPS". You can make your character tankier or more support oriented or whatever you like, and I'm sure EQN will be exactly the same in that regard. Non-trinity systems aren't so much about abolishing the ideas of tankiness or healing or damage so much as it is about removing the hard restrictions and letting everyone spontaneously fill those roles to varying degrees of success, i.e. you will still really want a party with heals but you might not need to bring a "Cleric", accepting no substitutes. Maybe you wind up with a Wizard that has some Bard type song healing and a Ranger with some light heal spells instead and that's sufficient.

    I think casual grouping in GW2 is super fun honestly. One of the best things that game ever did was design itself so that you can roll around in the overworld and play spontaneously with other people and you never have to worry about if there's room in their party or if they need another Thief or whatever bullshit presents itself in other games.

    The fact that GW2's more focused dungeon content isn't very good and the raid bosses ended up being underwhelming zergfests on stationary setpieces has nothing to do with a non-trifecta system being fundamentally bad.

    I also don't follow this argument that you will not want to play with other people just because you don't need to fill some quota of class roles when you go out to kill stuff. Nothing about a non-trifecta system also necessitates that group play won't be more lucrative than solo play, or that solo play even has to be possible if the content is too hard for one person.

    I've pretty much never communicated with anybody I've played Diablo with, or had to strategize or coordinate or work together in any meaningful way. Multiplayer in Diablo is just single-player, but with other people around. Guild Wars 2 is pretty much the same, especially the "casual grouping" out in the overworld. Have you ever talked to any of those people you're doing events with? Coordinated with them in any way? All you're doing is making sure you tag all the monsters so you get your individualized loot, and then you run off to the next event on your map. The fact that this comparison is the closest one to a lot of what they're talking about for EQN is what is super worrisome to me.

    Keep in mind that I actually kinda like Guild Wars 2, I think its a pretty fun game. I find it to be a completely unengaging MMORPG though.

    And what better game to have focused combat roles than one where you can multi-class, and change your class at will? Oh you're full on thieves? Okay I'll switch my class to Cleric/Shaman/Druid/one of the other 40 classes.

    PoolCue
  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I used to sit in a room with a bunch of guys and play Diablo. I still remember the 1/2 hour it took to run the cabling each time.

    We always forgot a terminator.

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  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    There is no end game, because we don't have levels. Since we don't have levels, what that means is that we don't have vertical progression that you're used to. What we have is horizontal progression. As you go through the world and you collect all these different classes and stuff like that, you're essentially becoming able to do more and more and more as it goes through. And all these different dynamic quest opportunities are popping up all over the place. So you can power yourself up by using crafting elements to change your weapons out, change the abilities there, and there's also ways you can advance your character abilities a little bit, but there is no actual end-game because we don't have that level restriction. We've changed the game fundamentally at its core.

    I hope this game is fun. I expect that it will be, and I plan to play it. Doesn't sound like its at all what I was hoping it would be, which I guess if I had to identify what that is, it would be some sort of spiritual successor to the original EverQuest. Oh well. Its absolutely not that, but it will probably be fun anyway. Going forward, I am going to try and just get excited for what it is (or not, if I don't find it exciting) rather than keep focusing on what its not.

  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    Pfft, Holy Trinity.

    Look, you still need someone to split camps in Lower Guk and I'm your person~

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  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    There is no end game, because we don't have levels. Since we don't have levels, what that means is that we don't have vertical progression that you're used to. What we have is horizontal progression. As you go through the world and you collect all these different classes and stuff like that, you're essentially becoming able to do more and more and more as it goes through. And all these different dynamic quest opportunities are popping up all over the place. So you can power yourself up by using crafting elements to change your weapons out, change the abilities there, and there's also ways you can advance your character abilities a little bit, but there is no actual end-game because we don't have that level restriction. We've changed the game fundamentally at its core.

    I hope this game is fun. I expect that it will be, and I plan to play it. Doesn't sound like its at all what I was hoping it would be, which I guess if I had to identify what that is, it would be some sort of spiritual successor to the original EverQuest. Oh well. Its absolutely not that, but it will probably be fun anyway. Going forward, I am going to try and just get excited for what it is (or not, if I don't find it exciting) rather than keep focusing on what its not.

    That exact quote you just mentioned is literally blowing the mind of a good friend of mine. His whole problem with MMOs is that he tends to look up the most efficient way to level to the endgame, he is having trouble even processing that there is no endgame to level to. It is providing me endless amusement at his confusion in trying to imagine how such a game could even exist :D

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