I definitely remember the grognardism regarding the change from thAC0 to BAB. It was pretty illustrative of the worst parts of our hobby; dedication to nostalgia, exclusionary impulses, inferiority/superiority complexes wrt the rest of the population, etc.
Edition changes in D&D have not traditionally been proud times for tabletop gamers.
I have plenty of problems with third but I'm trying to remember if any came up during the edition change. At the time I remember everything being so obviously so much better than 2nd.
Hmm....maybe Power Attack but that wasn't really an issue as written in 3.0, it took Andy Collins House Rules edition to break that.
People probably complained about Haste and in 3.0 it was a pretty big deal.
I remember 3rd being absolutely amazing when it came out. I'm one of the bigger critics of 3.x on these boards, but it was undeniably a step up in a myriad of ways.
I have a lot of nostalgia for 2nd (AD&D in particular), but it was a hot mess. No two groups played the same version, because nobody actually applied more than about 30% of the rules to any given game.
We can objectively say that some games handle certain aspects well or poorly.
I don't think we can objectively say that any combination of those areas makes the "perfect" game. Especially since some of those areas may be mutually exclusive, for example "Highly detailed tactical combat" and "Quickly resolved combat that reinforces the narrative". Each has a place but probably not in the same game.
Quite. Certain games objectively succeed at the goals of a tabletop RPG. Very few games succeed at no goals. Very few games succeed at most goals. No game hits every goal.
FATE is a very odd duck because what it's capable of mapping from a gaming perspective is so broad and crosses into both narrative and crunchy gaming and their traditional strongholds that it is threatening to a lot of entrenched gamers who are concerned, for whatever reason, that their particular part of the hobby is going to succumb to FATE as if it were a plague. Maybe it will. It has a lot going for it. But there's clearly also some market to be found in selling to grognards. So I doubt very much that it will eliminate anything.
Besides, what's the cost of producing a tabletop RPG these days? It's pretty low. Approaching zero, really, as the costs are incidental to living. The bar for entry into the market? Even lower. I already have a dozen people playing mine and I haven't even done layout yet. But the number of people who can sustain careers doing this is going to approach zero within a decade too.
We've seen this with hobby after hobby. The interesting -- and perhaps pertinent -- point concerning just RPGs is that they're not being bottomed out by "cheap Chinese knockoffs" (or, more likely, high quality printing and 3D printing commonality) but by a glut of superior products being offered to the community for free. That's something to look forward to, really.
thAC0 was one of those things that was a step in the right direction but still made no sense when you look at what the other options were, or where it would eventually end up.
Low being good and high being bad was a very strange place to build a game from.
But when you are being ranked, being number 1 is better than being number 2 or number 12! In some board games, going last means that you get to see what everyone else's move is before you reveal your own. And in the card game Hearts, you want the fewest amount of points, not the most (unless you are "shooting the moon", in which case the points are divested onto the other players anyway). I understand the perception, but it seems more like a weird false perception (higher is always better) to me than anything.
THAC0 still is flawed, but I don't fault it for having a scale where being lower is better (that was only because it was tied to a reverse scale Armor Class). It was probably the best compromise at the time. I'm sure 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons had the same (or worse!) problems as more recent editions of Dungeons and Dragons had in terms of pleasing the existing player base while designing in another direction. Imagine those first edition DnD folks who really really wanted to keep Armor Class as a reverse scale... it seems silly now, but back then it was srs bzness.
Hell, I remember when 3rd edition came out, and there were folks who simply refused to play 3rd edition because it had a positive scaling to-hit bonus (the descendant of the THAC0) and positive scaling AC. :-P
I definitely remember the grognardism regarding the change from thAC0 to BAB. It was pretty illustrative of the worst parts of our hobby; dedication to nostalgia, exclusionary impulses, inferiority/superiority complexes wrt the rest of the population, etc.
Edition changes in D&D have not traditionally been proud times for tabletop gamers.
Edition changes in general have been pretty awful. Often because lately edition changes are made for the wrong reasons by the wrong people. Which means they fail to address the concerns of the broad spectrum of their fans and end up fracturing the community even further.
Look at how Evil Hat approached what has been met with bile and hatred of late. FATE Core wasn't really bandied about as a "new edition." It was a refined coda of rules for running games on the FUDGE mechanics.
I've run and played eclipse phase and I find the system in practice to work just fine. The crunch is there to facilitate the widespread use of equipment and morph modification, which is a core element of the game's theme and tone.
In eclipse phase being a protagonist doesn't mean shit, it's your upgrades, skills and gear that count. Wouldn't want it any other way either. It's why I wouldn't use a narrative system for it, they tend to be too forgiving of the players just because they are players.
Well, a game can be a bit more unforgiving when a major point of the setting is that you just wake up in a new body after you die.
But you have to realize that that isn't a reward. It's a punishment. You wake up missing days, weeks, months of memory you'll never get back. You may never know how you died. And people might want you dead permanently and you'll never know why.
Dead is failure. Just with more bite then rerolling a character.
Unless your whole team wipes, none of that is actually true though? Unless the game is meant to be played with just 1 PC.
No. What if your last save you were a mild computer programmer. Some time between then and now, you created the ultimate virus, one that's turning morphs into serial killers. Maybe it was an accident but you and your team was working on stopping it when you died. You return and all you know of the program, your work on it, gone and the team is now out of opinions and time. You have to piece together what you were doing or humanity is doomed. Unless you all designed your characters as cookie cutter mercs, dying means different things to each of you.
Of course, this isn't even talking about the mental stress and damage your character would have to live with or overcome.
Both Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase are games that I want to play/run. I think about it pretty much every day and wonder how long it will take me to convince my group to be down with one of them.
I've run and played eclipse phase and I find the system in practice to work just fine. The crunch is there to facilitate the widespread use of equipment and morph modification, which is a core element of the game's theme and tone.
In eclipse phase being a protagonist doesn't mean shit, it's your upgrades, skills and gear that count. Wouldn't want it any other way either. It's why I wouldn't use a narrative system for it, they tend to be too forgiving of the players just because they are players.
Well, a game can be a bit more unforgiving when a major point of the setting is that you just wake up in a new body after you die.
But you have to realize that that isn't a reward. It's a punishment. You wake up missing days, weeks, months of memory you'll never get back. You may never know how you died. And people might want you dead permanently and you'll never know why.
Dead is failure. Just with more bite then rerolling a character.
Unless your whole team wipes, none of that is actually true though? Unless the game is meant to be played with just 1 PC.
No. What if your last save you were a mild computer programmer. Some time between then and now, you created the ultimate virus, one that's turning morphs into serial killers. Maybe it was an accident but you and your team was working on stopping it when you died. You return and all you know of the program, your work on it, gone and the team is now out of opinions and time. You have to piece together what you were doing or humanity is doomed. Unless you all designed your characters as cookie cutter mercs, dying means different things to each of you.
Of course, this isn't even talking about the mental stress and damage your character would have to live with or overcome.
Except what I can gather, everyone has a Cortical Stack that makes a new backup 86,000 times per day, and crazy hard to destroy. So, yes, if you were alone when you died and no one could find your body, and you didn't think to make a new backup when you started a really important mission, I suppose that would be problematic. But.. that doesn't seem very likely. There is time lost to getting used to your new body.. but that's definitely a minor inconvenience in compared to your character being dead.
Edit: To be clear, I like everything about Eclipse Phase beyond the seemingly clunky resolution mechanics.
InkSplat on
Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
The horror of Eclipse Phase is not that you might die
the horror is that you can't
Imagine seeing the nightmares that led your civilization to the edge of destruction. Imagine seeing the horrors perpetuated by your own people every day in the name of the basest desires. Imagine killing and stealing and lying and defiling to keep these people clinging to another second of existence, battling against their own mindless drive to understand and exploit the universe. Imagine facing the god-machines that look at you like an insect under a microscope, of seeing your friends fall to madness and horror and infection by a force you can barely understand, never mind comprehend the reason behind.
You might welcome death, if you saw all that. You might hope for it, because at least then it would be an end to the path that you're walking down. You might put a gun to your head to burn the memories out.
And then you wake up the next day. Firewall needs you. Transhumanity needs you. There's always another mission and another horror and you cannot escape it. Sure, you can wipe your memories, but Firewall needs those memories. They copy you and put you on ice so they can recall what you know. Somewhere out there is a you that suffers the knowledge you couldn't bear to carry, every second of every day. And you've done that to other people. And you will again.
Besides, those gaps, they eat at you. What did you see that caused you to shred your own continuity and rip part of your own personality and history away? What was in that room? What did you experience on that mission? You purposefully forget, and without truly knowing why, you will always feel th gnawing sense that there is something missing.
Dying? Dying is easy. It's staying alive that's hard. Your psyche can only withstand so much trauma before it breaks, or bends into something unrecogniseable. Death puts a hard cap on that, you probably will never see that point because you'll be dead long before you get there.
I don't think he meant it that way. The phrasing is unfortunate, however.
FATE is a very odd duck because what it's capable of mapping from a gaming perspective is so broad and crosses into both narrative and crunchy gaming and their traditional strongholds that it is threatening to a lot of entrenched gamers who are concerned, for whatever reason, that their particular part of the hobby is going to succumb to FATE as if it were a plague. Maybe it will. It has a lot going for it. But there's clearly also some market to be found in selling to grognards. So I doubt very much that it will eliminate anything.
The implication that was read by some folks is that the market that is non-FATE (in other words, everyone else) is selling to grognards (anyone who doesn't like FATE). And while I'm sure he didn't intend for that reaction, that's the reaction that happened. *shrugs* Just poor wordsmithing, I think.
It's funny, I was writing an earlier post today, and thought about using the word "Grognard" and then went "Nah, that's not the spirit of this discussion. It's a perjorative term that often leads to game-shaming, and that's not the intent that I have with the post."
I'm trying to avoid using the term, lately. Oddly enough, it's mostly because of recent events in Ferguson and Trayvon Martin... I've become a bit more aware of how even seemingly-innocuous terms can become "dog-whistles". I've also stopped using the term weeaboo, unless I'm teasing one of my friends.
No, he didn't. He specifically said that Fate has a broad appeal to both traditional and non-traditional gamers alike that is threatening to some people who fear that Fate will infect their games with things they don't like. I think it's important to differentiate between people who don't like Fate and people who think Fate is destroying the hobby in this case.
Edit: Hansoo got it. Could have been phrased better, sure, but let's be as charitable to each other as we can.
@Solar Huh. You might have sold me on trying the game out. The quickstart rules should probably start with that little spiel.
My only doubt is players playing that sort of game. How many can really pretend their characters forgot something incredibly important to the plot because they died and their body was lost?
But I'll load the full book up on my iPad and give it a more thorough chance. The resolution mechanic still bugs me, but maybe in play it won't seem quite so obnoxious.
Origin for Dragon Age: Inquisition Shenanigans: Inksplat776
I don't think he meant it that way. The phrasing is unfortunate, however.
FATE is a very odd duck because what it's capable of mapping from a gaming perspective is so broad and crosses into both narrative and crunchy gaming and their traditional strongholds that it is threatening to a lot of entrenched gamers who are concerned, for whatever reason, that their particular part of the hobby is going to succumb to FATE as if it were a plague. Maybe it will. It has a lot going for it. But there's clearly also some market to be found in selling to grognards. So I doubt very much that it will eliminate anything.
The implication that was read by some folks is that the market that is non-FATE (in other words, everyone else) is selling to grognards (anyone who doesn't like FATE). And while I'm sure he didn't intend for that reaction, that's the reaction that happened. *shrugs* Just poor wordsmithing, I think.
It's funny, I was writing an earlier post today, and thought about using the word "Grognard" and then went "Nah, that's not the spirit of this discussion. It's a perjorative term that often leads to game-shaming, and that's not the intent that I have with the post."
I'm trying to avoid using the term, lately. Oddly enough, it's mostly because of recent events in Ferguson and Trayvon Martin... I've become a bit more aware of how even seemingly-innocuous terms can become "dog-whistles". I've also stopped using the term weeaboo, unless I'm teasing one of my friends.
At this point I feel like it's bound to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Which is whatever; that level of gooseyness deserves itself.
No, he didn't. He specifically said that Fate has a broad appeal to both traditional and non-traditional gamers alike that is threatening to some people who fear that Fate will infect their games with things they don't like. I think it's important to differentiate between people who don't like Fate and people who think Fate is destroying the hobby in this case.
Edit: Hansoo got it. Could have been phrased better, sure, but let's be as charitable to each other as we can.
Yeah, this was the intent of my original stab. It's actually more than me simply opining about it. I've seen a lot of the "old school" types whine about how narrative gaming has split the RPG audience, and, not joking sadly, "diluted the activity." To which my reaction is "Welp, I'm done buying what you're selling. Enjoy what profits you can turn now."
What was perhaps most depressing was watching someone brag about the dollar value of an RPG Kickstarter without actually, you know, considering the math behind it (aside: the relative likely return after the cost of creating the gifts specifically for the campaign leaves what is, in my estimation, just enough to actually get the project completed with all the goals satisfied and the authors paid slightly less than the going rate). They said they considered it a "shot across the bow of narrative gaming," which is indicative of the mindset. Like there's some battle here to be won or lost.
I'm not out here trying to sell my FATE-based space opera game. I'm trying to make it presentable so I can give it away because I want people to have as much fun as I've had. Just like if I recommend FATE it's because I think people new to the hobby really benefit from something that straddles the line between narrativist and crunch without being an abomination like D&D 5e.
I don't think it is fair to say a gronard won't like FATE but not all people who do not like FATE are gronards.
If you're a gronard and like FATE then I'm gonna rat on you and get you kicked out of the club for being No True Gronard.
If you want to get technical, grognards dislike things because they are newer than the things they like.
Which means that the only ones who get to be FUDGE/FATE grognards are GURPS and OD&D players and us pro-FATE folks are just reverse grognarding you all.
I think that was the single goosiest sentence I've ever written.
In my group I'm the PnP RPG noob as I've only done it for like 10 years. The others have been playing for at least 20 years. We play something like 5-6 different type of games all with different rules and the fact that we change game perhaps once every 6 months keeps it freash. Sometimes you roll loads of D20, other times its D6 and what not. One of the others have even made his own present day RPG for playing in a modern setting, he started making that game in 1988!
This saturday is the first time we are playing Edge of the Empire and I am GM for the first time. Its going to be awesome.
A few weeks ago I picked up the Gamma World Alternity rules on a larf, intending to have my players (playing the 4E Gamma World) find in in a stash of old gaming books, for metahumorous effect (the current plot of the game is that they're searching for D&D books so that they can go to a legendary mystic known as "The Gygax," who grants wishes to people who bring him the correct tomes).
I was at Half Price Books a couple days ago and found the Alternity Player's Handbook for cheap; I also had a coupon. So now I could even theoretically run Alternity Gamma World... unless you need a GM Guide or something to run it. Do I?
I remember running Alternity out of the Player's Guide. So I know it can be done. I think I was 15 at the time, though, so adjust expectations according
I remember running Alternity out of the Player's Guide. So I know it can be done. I think I was 15 at the time, though, so adjust expectations according
I really enjoyed that system in high school.
I also played Alternity in high school and it's pretty good as d20 games go. The GM guide is only necessary if you're unfamiliar with the conceits of d20 systems (it's rules like encumbrance, travel times, etc and session prep/how to GM -- I can't remember if its how to GM part was any good).
Oh, lists of systems we own. I like that. Its a positive message. I'll expand on my list from a few pages back, then.
New World of Darkness (play quite often, currently playing a Blood & Smoke campaign)
Vampire
Mage (Fate mages break all the games, GM has forbidden me from ever playing a Mage again)
Werewolf
Changeling
Demon (want to play, maybe if my current Vampire dies)
13th Age (Current Game I GM)
Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Ed (played a lot of this)
Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Ed (played even more of this)
Dungeons & Dragons 4th (Played for about 2 months before deciding it was crap and everyone switching to Pathfinder)
Pathfinder (Played a lot of this & GM'd an Evil Campaign)
Shadowrun 4ed(we do a 3 to 4 session Run each year, but rarely more than that)
Star Wars 2nd Ed (first RPG I ever bought, didn't even know what an RPG was, just saw Star Wars and Game)
Star Wars 3rd Ed (played for about 6 months)
Star Wars 3.5 Ed (took over from 3rd Ed. Played another 6 months, then ended the campaign when I killed the level 25 Sith Lord at level 15 before the Sith could monologue about how we'd never beat him)
Star Wars Saga (Played a number of campaigns, current one seems dead)
Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion (Want to Play)
Legend of Five Rings 1st Ed(my college game of choice)
Legend of Five Rings 4th Ed (Will be the next game I GM, probably starting this winter)
d20 Modern (I GM'd a game of this to completion and would really like to play as a player sometime)
DC Universe (GM'd a three month campaign, but we decided we didn't really like the system)
Numenera (bought the PDF when I was snowed in at a hotel and needed something to read)
I think that's everything, but I'm trying to do this from the top of my head, so I may be missing some stuff. I've played a bunch of other things, but it was all either at GenCon or books that friends own instead of me.
I'm currently renovating a building on our property to put all my gaming stuff in. Once that's done, maybe I'll post a list, but I'm a little worried it'll push past the character count in a single post.
Posts
I have a lot of nostalgia for 2nd (AD&D in particular), but it was a hot mess. No two groups played the same version, because nobody actually applied more than about 30% of the rules to any given game.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
FATE is a very odd duck because what it's capable of mapping from a gaming perspective is so broad and crosses into both narrative and crunchy gaming and their traditional strongholds that it is threatening to a lot of entrenched gamers who are concerned, for whatever reason, that their particular part of the hobby is going to succumb to FATE as if it were a plague. Maybe it will. It has a lot going for it. But there's clearly also some market to be found in selling to grognards. So I doubt very much that it will eliminate anything.
Besides, what's the cost of producing a tabletop RPG these days? It's pretty low. Approaching zero, really, as the costs are incidental to living. The bar for entry into the market? Even lower. I already have a dozen people playing mine and I haven't even done layout yet. But the number of people who can sustain careers doing this is going to approach zero within a decade too.
We've seen this with hobby after hobby. The interesting -- and perhaps pertinent -- point concerning just RPGs is that they're not being bottomed out by "cheap Chinese knockoffs" (or, more likely, high quality printing and 3D printing commonality) but by a glut of superior products being offered to the community for free. That's something to look forward to, really.
just because you don't like fate does not make you a Grognard
Look at how Evil Hat approached what has been met with bile and hatred of late. FATE Core wasn't really bandied about as a "new edition." It was a refined coda of rules for running games on the FUDGE mechanics.
Now you're just being a ridiculous goose.
No. What if your last save you were a mild computer programmer. Some time between then and now, you created the ultimate virus, one that's turning morphs into serial killers. Maybe it was an accident but you and your team was working on stopping it when you died. You return and all you know of the program, your work on it, gone and the team is now out of opinions and time. You have to piece together what you were doing or humanity is doomed. Unless you all designed your characters as cookie cutter mercs, dying means different things to each of you.
Of course, this isn't even talking about the mental stress and damage your character would have to live with or overcome.
Except what I can gather, everyone has a Cortical Stack that makes a new backup 86,000 times per day, and crazy hard to destroy. So, yes, if you were alone when you died and no one could find your body, and you didn't think to make a new backup when you started a really important mission, I suppose that would be problematic. But.. that doesn't seem very likely. There is time lost to getting used to your new body.. but that's definitely a minor inconvenience in compared to your character being dead.
Edit: To be clear, I like everything about Eclipse Phase beyond the seemingly clunky resolution mechanics.
the horror is that you can't
Imagine seeing the nightmares that led your civilization to the edge of destruction. Imagine seeing the horrors perpetuated by your own people every day in the name of the basest desires. Imagine killing and stealing and lying and defiling to keep these people clinging to another second of existence, battling against their own mindless drive to understand and exploit the universe. Imagine facing the god-machines that look at you like an insect under a microscope, of seeing your friends fall to madness and horror and infection by a force you can barely understand, never mind comprehend the reason behind.
You might welcome death, if you saw all that. You might hope for it, because at least then it would be an end to the path that you're walking down. You might put a gun to your head to burn the memories out.
And then you wake up the next day. Firewall needs you. Transhumanity needs you. There's always another mission and another horror and you cannot escape it. Sure, you can wipe your memories, but Firewall needs those memories. They copy you and put you on ice so they can recall what you know. Somewhere out there is a you that suffers the knowledge you couldn't bear to carry, every second of every day. And you've done that to other people. And you will again.
Besides, those gaps, they eat at you. What did you see that caused you to shred your own continuity and rip part of your own personality and history away? What was in that room? What did you experience on that mission? You purposefully forget, and without truly knowing why, you will always feel th gnawing sense that there is something missing.
Dying? Dying is easy. It's staying alive that's hard. Your psyche can only withstand so much trauma before it breaks, or bends into something unrecogniseable. Death puts a hard cap on that, you probably will never see that point because you'll be dead long before you get there.
in Eclipse Phase, you will get there.
Only question is how...
universal pat rothfuss beard resolution system
No one is saying this.
They're working on a conversion, actually
It's funny, I was writing an earlier post today, and thought about using the word "Grognard" and then went "Nah, that's not the spirit of this discussion. It's a perjorative term that often leads to game-shaming, and that's not the intent that I have with the post."
I'm trying to avoid using the term, lately. Oddly enough, it's mostly because of recent events in Ferguson and Trayvon Martin... I've become a bit more aware of how even seemingly-innocuous terms can become "dog-whistles". I've also stopped using the term weeaboo, unless I'm teasing one of my friends.
No, he didn't. He specifically said that Fate has a broad appeal to both traditional and non-traditional gamers alike that is threatening to some people who fear that Fate will infect their games with things they don't like. I think it's important to differentiate between people who don't like Fate and people who think Fate is destroying the hobby in this case.
Edit: Hansoo got it. Could have been phrased better, sure, but let's be as charitable to each other as we can.
My only doubt is players playing that sort of game. How many can really pretend their characters forgot something incredibly important to the plot because they died and their body was lost?
But I'll load the full book up on my iPad and give it a more thorough chance. The resolution mechanic still bugs me, but maybe in play it won't seem quite so obnoxious.
Yeah, this was the intent of my original stab. It's actually more than me simply opining about it. I've seen a lot of the "old school" types whine about how narrative gaming has split the RPG audience, and, not joking sadly, "diluted the activity." To which my reaction is "Welp, I'm done buying what you're selling. Enjoy what profits you can turn now."
What was perhaps most depressing was watching someone brag about the dollar value of an RPG Kickstarter without actually, you know, considering the math behind it (aside: the relative likely return after the cost of creating the gifts specifically for the campaign leaves what is, in my estimation, just enough to actually get the project completed with all the goals satisfied and the authors paid slightly less than the going rate). They said they considered it a "shot across the bow of narrative gaming," which is indicative of the mindset. Like there's some battle here to be won or lost.
I'm not out here trying to sell my FATE-based space opera game. I'm trying to make it presentable so I can give it away because I want people to have as much fun as I've had. Just like if I recommend FATE it's because I think people new to the hobby really benefit from something that straddles the line between narrativist and crunch without being an abomination like D&D 5e.
I don't think it is fair to say a gronard won't like FATE but not all people who do not like FATE are gronards.
If you're a gronard and like FATE then I'm gonna rat on you and get you kicked out of the club for being No True Gronard.
Which means that the only ones who get to be FUDGE/FATE grognards are GURPS and OD&D players and us pro-FATE folks are just reverse grognarding you all.
I think that was the single goosiest sentence I've ever written.
Thus are we FATEd to forever argue about a particular system that shall not be named?
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I changed the thread title to reflect my golden rule. Also, I saw this on Twitter today and is relevant to the thread.
Edit: when I remake the thread, I will be putting this in the OP as a baseline for the discussion.
I warned you
I warned all of you!
hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
This saturday is the first time we are playing Edge of the Empire and I am GM for the first time. Its going to be awesome.
I was at Half Price Books a couple days ago and found the Alternity Player's Handbook for cheap; I also had a coupon. So now I could even theoretically run Alternity Gamma World... unless you need a GM Guide or something to run it. Do I?
I really enjoyed that system in high school.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Yeah, I'm trying to be more discerning in what I keep/buy. Here is what I own, with notes on what I have plaed:
Vampire
Mage (Fate mages break all the games, GM has forbidden me from ever playing a Mage again)
Werewolf
Changeling
Demon (want to play, maybe if my current Vampire dies)
I think that's everything, but I'm trying to do this from the top of my head, so I may be missing some stuff. I've played a bunch of other things, but it was all either at GenCon or books that friends own instead of me.
Maybe I'll just put up some pictures.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.