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Enough is enough - Social engineering among our peers [Flappy Bird]
Henroid
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
I was going to make this over in D&D but decided to put this in G&T since it is video game playing / player related, and it may help to reach more people.
News has broken this morning that Jen Hepler is quitting Bioware after receiving more shitheel internet-user abuse, ranging from general abusive comments to death threats against her children. Article in full:
(Edit - I will note at this time that it turns out the Metro news source put a slant on the story; Hepler left Bioware to work on a book. However, the abusive / threatening shit was still a real thing happening, and this correction to her reasons for leaving doesn't suddenly make shitheel behavior on the internet OK - we now return you to our regularly scheduled thread)
I'm starting this thread not to discuss "oh people on the internet are being insane," because what is there to discuss - anyone over 12 years of age knows that this kinda crap is not okay. No, I'm starting this to say that enough is enough and people need to start taking action. Start pressuring their peers into being better people. The reality is that as this kind of crap goes on, it fuels the flames of doing away with anonymity on the internet and we get more instances of people being arrested for their crappy comments. Hell, after reading this story my initial reaction was, "Fuck it, we don't deserve this good thing we have going." It infuriates the hell out of me.
We all play games with random folks, not just people here on the forum. And plenty of PA forum community members are community members on other sites (be they big and notable or just small club house type affairs). It's simple really - if you see shitheel behavior, don't condone it. If you see or hear someone being a rageaholic and/or making threats, tell them why they're being ejected from your game or community and just do it. Unfollow their accounts, urge others you know to do the same, because those jerkoffs will just shout into the void literally at nobody.
Community managers also need to crack down with use of their authority. It's time to discard that, "Speak pleasantly to any customer regardless of their behavior," crap. "ZOMG BLIZZ I WILL KILL YOU" should not be met with, "I'm sorry you feel that way." It should be met with, "You just made a threat. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." Take away their toys.
Never be silent. That doesn't evoke change.
Obviously this kind of ugly behavior goes on beyond the media that surrounds video games. People need to put effort in those places too if it is seen. Ignoring this crap and hoping it goes away is just going to let it fester.
So that's that. I'm out. Droppin' the mic.
Edit - An article was posting to Polygon yesterday about this topic and it's worth a read. Read it. No seriously read it.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups
News has broken this morning that Jen Hepler is quitting Bioware after receiving more shitheel internet-user abuse, ranging from general abusive comments to death threats against her children. Article in full:
(Edit - I will note at this time that it turns out the Metro news source put a slant on the story; Hepler left Bioware to work on a book. However, the abusive / threatening shit was still a real thing happening, and this correction to her reasons for leaving doesn't suddenly make shitheel behavior on the internet OK - we now return you to our regularly scheduled thread)
The senior writer on Dragon Age II has decided to leave developer BioWare after ‘graphic threats’ were made to kill her children.
Jennifer Helper was working on sequel Dragon Age: Inquisition but is quitting BioWare this week to go freelance, in large part thanks to threats she and others of the team received in the wake of Dragon Age II’s release.
The game was unpopular with many hardcore fans and although Hepler was able to ignore most of the threats and abuse on the BioWare forums and Twitter she also received emailed death threats and threats against her children, as well as abusive phone calls.
Hepler revealed the threats in a wider article on the subject of fan abuse on website Polygon. The story is also reminiscent of an incident last month, when fans threatened to murder a Call Of Duty developer because of minute changes to some of Black Ops II’s weapons.
The catalyst for Hepler’s abuse was a six-year-old interview in which she admitted she didn’t enjoy combat in games. This was enough for fans to blame her for unpopular changes in Dragon Age II, describing her as a ‘cancer’ that was destroying BioWare.
‘I was shown a sample of the forum posts by EA security,’ says Hepler ‘And it included graphic threats to kill my children on their way out of school to show them that they should have been aborted at birth rather than have to have me as a mother.’
The situation highlights both more general problems with cyberbullying and the targeting of women via Twitter, both of which are likely to see more strict legal sanctions in the future.
Another part of the problem for Hepler though was BioWare’s sympathetic portrayal of homosexual characters, which has not only been the catalyst for some of the abuse but also much of the positive support from fans.
‘The outpouring of support I received — large amounts from female and gay fans — was incredibly heartening,’ said Hepler. ‘Without the negativity, I’m not sure that I would ever have heard from all of these people confirming that there is a need for characters that tackle touchy social issues, for characters who are untraditional or even unlikeable.’
I'm starting this thread not to discuss "oh people on the internet are being insane," because what is there to discuss - anyone over 12 years of age knows that this kinda crap is not okay. No, I'm starting this to say that enough is enough and people need to start taking action. Start pressuring their peers into being better people. The reality is that as this kind of crap goes on, it fuels the flames of doing away with anonymity on the internet and we get more instances of people being arrested for their crappy comments. Hell, after reading this story my initial reaction was, "Fuck it, we don't deserve this good thing we have going." It infuriates the hell out of me.
We all play games with random folks, not just people here on the forum. And plenty of PA forum community members are community members on other sites (be they big and notable or just small club house type affairs). It's simple really - if you see shitheel behavior, don't condone it. If you see or hear someone being a rageaholic and/or making threats, tell them why they're being ejected from your game or community and just do it. Unfollow their accounts, urge others you know to do the same, because those jerkoffs will just shout into the void literally at nobody.
Community managers also need to crack down with use of their authority. It's time to discard that, "Speak pleasantly to any customer regardless of their behavior," crap. "ZOMG BLIZZ I WILL KILL YOU" should not be met with, "I'm sorry you feel that way." It should be met with, "You just made a threat. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out." Take away their toys.
Never be silent. That doesn't evoke change.
Obviously this kind of ugly behavior goes on beyond the media that surrounds video games. People need to put effort in those places too if it is seen. Ignoring this crap and hoping it goes away is just going to let it fester.
So that's that. I'm out. Droppin' the mic.
Edit - An article was posting to Polygon yesterday about this topic and it's worth a read. Read it. No seriously read it.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups
Henroid on
+52
Posts
This kind of thing makes me appreciate you guys all the more. We don't have that kind of crap here (at least from what I can see). I really do think the internet in general would be a better place if more communities had moderators that were willing to crack down on unacceptable behaviour.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups
Good Job.
If you are in the public eye in any capacity, you are going to get impotent threats from faceless nobodies, and no amount of "social engineering" will ever change the fact that a small number of people just flat out suck. The responsible thing to do is to treat them like streakers, turn the cameras off and direct them to the authorities.
I dunno, I feel like this will pull far more attention to the issue.
Also, who are you to say how much abuse a person should tolerate? I don't think Bioware wants to add "Must be receptive to threats on your children" to the job description...
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
You're being a goose. The streaker isn't threatening to murder your family.
She signed up to make a video game, although frankly, no one should have to sit through that sort of abuse.
The 'direct them to the authorities' part is the part that I agree with most strongly - though it should be 'direct the authorities to them.' If someone is willing to put in the time and effort to put in the work to follow up on it to see who was making the threat, it can and should be treated every bit as seriously as someone putting a letter on the victim's front door.
Grumbling that people on the Internet are being horrible does nothing. Being charged for death threats does something. If it happens often enough, it'll stop happening.
And that is pretty pointless, because the "issue" is only solved when you have 100% buy in from everyone on the internet. Even if you get 99.99% saying "Goddamn. These people are awful", you are still signaling to the other 0.01% that sending developer threats will influence their behavior.
Dude, you misunderstand. No one should have to tolerate that shit, but let the police handle it. Saying "You win, I quit"
encourages these people.
"When asked if the harassment led to her depature, Hepler told Polygon "No, leaving Bioware was for family reasons. I am going to be working on a text book on narrative design among other game-related freelance projects."
Steam: BrocksMullet http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197972421669/
"Jennifer Helper was working on sequel Dragon Age: Inquisition but is quitting BioWare this week to go freelance, in large part thanks to threats she and others of the team received in the wake of Dragon Age II’s release."
Guess they got it wrong in the OP's article.
Plus authorities are pretty much powerless over things like this.
Tell you what, when someone sends death threats to your family, you can talk about how it's the 'worst way to handle it'. People called her fucking house. Where the hell do you get off telling people 'you should just ignore them, you're empowering them!' This is victim blaming bullshit of the highest fucking caliber.
It's irrelevant, anyways - she left for completely unrelated reasons. But let me tell you, if someone did feel the need to change professions because someone threatened to murder their children, the last person you fucking blame is the victim.
Christ.
That depends.
I've had several experiences while playing DOTA2 lately, for instance, where someone has started bullying someone else and I've told them to chill over voice chat. It's actually worked quite a few times. There is still the occasional outlier who just continues to go nuts regardless of what I do, but when I enter an argument as a third party and tell people to lay off, it works enough that I wouldn't discount it.
The key seems to be not hurling insults at them, just telling them to relax a bit and have fun.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
You don't insult your kids to teach them to behave properly.
People who act like this should be treated like children, and by that I mean they should be scolded in firm but moderated tones; told that their behavior is unacceptable not through further insults and shaming but through the language of adults, specifically ones teaching children.
So I guess my advice is to be the grownup in your gaming group, if you want things to get better. Calmly point out the bad behavior, briefly and clearly say why it's bad, explain the consequence of continuing, and follow through 100% of the time.
No.
If you are being condescending to actual children, you are not doing it right. Being "treated like a child" is not condescending if you're a good parent (though being treated like a toddler sure would be).
It's not condescending to model this behavior:
"Look, the way you're behaving isn't acceptable in public. It's rude and insulting and upsets everyone around you. If you keep doing it, I'm going to kick you from the party / ask you to leave / block your access for 48 hours / ban your account." Then if it keeps up, you calmly and without drama follow through.
That is what I'm talking about - it's the language of adults, of good parents. It's clear, it's not passive aggressive, it doesn't beg for agreement or bargain or make deals. It's not condescending - it's straightforward, honest, and predictable.
Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry. I was envisioning the tone that people use.
Literally ANY action other than completely ignoring this behavior is a reward. It is not a matter of doing something is too hard, it is that getting someone upset is the goal and getting someone upset enough to complain about it is like winning the lottery. That xbox live person is now internet famous, he got what he wanted. Internet trolls are by no means a new phenomenon, there is a reason that the phrase "don't feed the trolls" exists.
I'll let you in on a little moderating secret: the by far most effective soft moderation I do (hard moderation being infractions and bans), is the sentence "You need to be thirteen years or older to post on these forums."
The way to treat that behavior is to acknowledge the behavior, note that it's unacceptable, and follow through with the appropriate punishment / response. If it means reporting to administrators, kicking someone from your group / ignoring them, or going and playing on another server, that's how you handle it.
You don't engage in a debate about why it's ok or not ok to act some way - you don't feed the trolls. They know how they should / shouldn't act, and if they aren't mature enough to act that way after getting called out, there is nothing to gain by engaging them directly. You say what you are going to do and why, then do it. Report, ignore, or take whatever steps are warranted.
I personally don't involve myself in any online communities that accept that sort of behavior. If moderators / administrators won't / can't address it or ignore it, the loss of community members may allow them to re-evaluate their priorities.
I think this is a pretty broken way to look at adult, or even anonymous, discourse. If you punish someone, at best they will simply avoid a behavior. More likely, they will just continue that behavior elsewhere where it will be supported. The idea of "socially engineering" people through a series of punishments strikes me as ridiculous. Yes, it works with children because as adults you are the world to them. Adults and teenagers simply have a much wider array of social outlets and don't have the same need for approval from any single source.
Charisma leadership work by making people feel good about adopting target behaviors, not by punishing them for undesirable ones.
What in the very real fuck.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Boundary setting is important. I'd say it's critical. It's certainly not a broken way to look at adult discourse.
But it isn't a behavior that withers in absence of reward, so ignoring doesn't help. Plus I think most people would find it hard to ignore a steady stream of abuse that has the appearance of coming from a mass.
And I don't imagine fame ever entered that guy's head as a motivation for threatening to rape someone.
Please, you'd be surprised how effective Persona Non Grata is.
You threaten a staff member or another customer? Banned for life.
Every other place I worked responded that way if a customer threatened to murder one of the staff. Why are developers excused from protecting their staff from abuse by customers?
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
But in the day and age where you have to have an online account to play the game, you can lose that account in the same fashion.
... OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I BECOME.
This is a pretty interesting system imo, and it seems to be working at least in part.
But the abuse was still present, it just wasn't the reason.
It also doesn't suddenly make the shitheel behavior a non-issue either.