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Enough is enough - Social engineering among our peers [Flappy Bird]

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Posts

  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim regular Registered User regular
    How do you pick out the nutjob from the volume he was getting? How do you price that there is no nutjob?

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Jeedan wrote: »
    I don't understand the logic of "why not just ignore twitter" since I can't imagine being a game developer who doesn't use social media these days going well for you.

    The one, and only, time I have been ever subject to Twitter abuse, it was by one person. Not thousands. One! That person found my phone number, called it, and without going into details, the abuse caused me to change the phone number I've had for 25 years. Did I mention I don't even live at the address that phone number connects to anymore? The abuse was directed at my mother.

    Fuck anyone who doesn't sympathise with the guy. The behaviour directed towards people online is REAL, and it absolutely can cross over into real life.

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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats regular Registered User regular
    You don't have to pick out the nutjobs.

    Make online threats of physical violence are actionable. It doesn't matter if not every single threat gets handled, just enough to make people realize that harassment laws still apply even on the internet.

    If I sent out a death threat via mail to, lets see, Michael Bay or George Lucas, do you really think it wouldn't be acted upon? If I called up a shop I didn't like and threatened to kill everyone there, would it be investigated?

    I doubt every single threat against a celebrity or business or school is investigated and charges are brought up, but enough are to make it so that empty threats via mail or phone aren't seen as acceptable behavior. If you don't believe me, go ahead and call up your local walmart and threaten whoever answers the phone with exactly what is posted in those tweets and find out how long it takes for the police to show up. (don't do this).

    The problem isn't that these things aren't actionable, it's that they're seen as juvenile pranks by those who should take action on them. We change that, and while it may not stop people being assholes, it'd stop a good deal of people from crossing that particular line.

    While someone may still be able to send Patrick Kelpek a message saying he should have died instead of Ryan Davis, they'd think twice before sending him a picture of a gun with the caption "this is for you".

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious regular Registered User regular
    Your comparisons are flawed, which isn't surprising.

    To make an actual real life comparison, "try posting a note on a random cork board in the city someone lives in saying you're going to kill them."

    That is the direct, actual, realistic comparison. You keep making these situations where it's clear you know where the person is. Because unless you can prove someone can even figure out where you are, much less even hurt you, the laws would have to be massively overhauled into thought crime territory.

    I mean shockingly, you can turn off Twitter notifications and just never even know when people @ you, while still being able to tweet and everything. There just is nothing you can compare to real life that compares to Twitter.

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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats regular Registered User regular
    Your comparisons are flawed, which isn't surprising.

    To make an actual real life comparison, "try posting a note on a random cork board in the city someone lives in saying you're going to kill them."

    That is the direct, actual, realistic comparison. You keep making these situations where it's clear you know where the person is. Because unless you can prove someone can even figure out where you are, much less even hurt you, the laws would have to be massively overhauled into thought crime territory.

    I mean shockingly, you can turn off Twitter notifications and just never even know when people @ you, while still being able to tweet and everything. There just is nothing you can compare to real life that compares to Twitter.

    You have to be kidding. Twitter @s are directly to someone, just via a public forum. While you can turn off notifications, that's like saying you can bounce incoming calls to your phone, so yes there's a real life comparison.

    Which, I am kinda amazed that people still don't consider the internet "real life". I'd imagine that's a large part of the problem.

    No I don't.
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  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Bad Opinion Haver Registered User regular
    I'm really struggling to figure my head around publicly declaring intent to harm someone as thought crime.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I would actually be quite worried if I found or heard of an anonymous note on a random cork board threatening me, specifically, with death. Even if, afterwards, I resolved to no longer look at cork boards.

    Maybe that's just me.

    Surfpossum on
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  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim regular Registered User regular
    @Death_of_rats @chocobolicious

    The article I posted on the last page listed the issues with twitter and blocking and ignoring trolls.

    Say twilight sparkle (albino bunny's av is right there) is threatening to kill me on twitter. I ignore her and continue following people I like and responding to friendly stuff.

    Does twitter's system continue to allow twilight sparkle to continue to make this threats even though I can't see them?

    Can she use a hash tag related to me and my twitter account to rally other haters to her flag?

    Does ignoring her stop her from taking actions that inhibit my ability to function (tweeting pictures of my home, doxing my information, harassing my good friends Death of Rats and Chocobolicious)?


    I'm not going to discount your advice to ignore the trolls as there are some that are empowered by the attention, but do understand, that some individuals do not need to hear from their targets to be encouraged and will act against them in other fashions that can't be ignored.

    I actually don't think this issue is going to get as grand as the rest of the thread has made it out to be as you're right, he is ignoring the trolls and walking away from the money for reasons beyond the trolls' control or reason, much like Dave Chappelle. Sometimes you need to burn down a house to kill some rats.

    The bigger social issue to this scenario is whether there's any way to stop these feeding frenzies. When an idea of disdain goes beyond simple "this sucks" and escalates to "I'm gonna toss your baby into an oven like they did the rest of your Jewish family." For those men (like me) and women who are taught that they can set the house on fire and walk away, this situations are easy to handle, but its not fair to the rest of the world to assume that they are as strong as me. They should be, but they're not, and I would be a goose to chastise them for not being that strong.

  • ShenShen regular Registered User regular
    The internet isn't real life though, just like high school isn't 'real life' - they're places largely devoid of responsibility and real consequence. Like this discussion - sure it's baller that y'all are for cracking down on bullying, but the conversation itself isn't actually doing anything to further that cause. That's something that will come down to actions you take outside of these forums.

    I've never been the victim of anything more than racist speech in DotA or late night screeching from drunks. They were both unpleasant, but the drunks were far more scary due to their immediate presence, the difficulty of ignoring them and the fact that I couldn't just quit out.

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  • UltimanecatUltimanecat regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I'd imagine that if you just set the threshold to articulated, specific threats of violence, then people will simply push up against that threshold and still achieve the same effect.

    In the US at least, we have significant amounts of jurisprudence stating that you're allowed to say pretty awful stuff. Since context is a large factor to what ultimately is considered a threat, if we draw a bright line at "I will [blank] you", then we'll probably see people moderating their comments to things like "I hope something bad happens to you" or "If something bad happens to you, you'd deserve it" or simply variations on "kill yourself". Perhaps a victory?

    It's also probably better to avoid analogies that ignore the public nature of the internet. Your Twitter handle is not your telephone number. A telephone lets two individuals communicate over distance, and there's no easy way to broadcast to a wider audience that way. A significant portion of Twitter's purpose and appeal is that it is public, which also means that the standards for what is considered questionable communication are different. People who argue that they live their lives online will probably be met with judges that see that as living their life in public, with all the looser standards that entails, instead of seeing it as special reason to come down hard on offenders.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    The internet isn't real life though, just like high school isn't 'real life' - they're places largely devoid of responsibility and real consequence. Like this discussion - sure it's baller that y'all are for cracking down on bullying, but the conversation itself isn't actually doing anything to further that cause. That's something that will come down to actions you take outside of these forums.

    I've never been the victim of anything more than racist speech in DotA or late night screeching from drunks. They were both unpleasant, but the drunks were far more scary due to their immediate presence, the difficulty of ignoring them and the fact that I couldn't just quit out.

    Disagree with the bolded. Discussions like this one cause people to change their minds and/or get involved all the time. As evidenced in this very thread, by your very post even, there are people here that consider this to not be a big deal, just like how I considered sexist and racist remarks not a big deal before reading through similar discussions on this very forum.

    Yeah, being active in calling people out directly is necessary. But this discussion isn't pointless.

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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Shen wrote: »
    The internet isn't real life though, just like high school isn't 'real life' - they're places largely devoid of responsibility and real consequence. Like this discussion - sure it's baller that y'all are for cracking down on bullying, but the conversation itself isn't actually doing anything to further that cause. That's something that will come down to actions you take outside of these forums.

    A few years ago I would have agreed with you, that the internet isn't real life.

    But when someone can base their entire career online, not having a store, selling products directly to people online, using Twitter and Facebook and forums and their website as their customer service, saying the internet is largely devoid of responsibility and real consequences is no longer accurate.

    The internet is as much real life as talking on the phone or texting or sending letters or going out to lunch. An internet based interview is just as real as a sitdown or phone interview. If an upset tweet from a consumer can get a representative of a company to reach out to provide a resolution the internet is real life.

    When someone can get fired for a tweet the internet is real life.

    We may like to pretend it doesn't, but your actions on the internet do have real consequences. I mean, look at Flappy Birds. I'd say the money made from that is a real consequence of internet actions.

    Death of Rats on
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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I work in social media so I can share some generalized knowledge.

    Being attacked on social media is pretty much unavoidable, no matter how you behave or respond. The only way to avoid being attacked is to stay off the internet. If you must go on the Internet, don't be associated with any brand name that could generate negativity or else you are a target.

    Death threats ARE taken seriously. Most are completely idle threats but in the off chance that they are serious, you don't want to be responsible for dismissing a threat completely. Filtering is required.

    The negativity bias does get to you. It can be hard and society needs to work towards changing this bias. We're so focused on cyber bullying for teenagers but people in customer facing roles face abuse everyday. I'm not sure, short of changes to laws, what can be done.

    In the short term, abolishing this ideal that the customer is always right is a good start. Having to placate extremely hostile people should not be expected of anyone. Placating hostile individuals takes a toll on your soul and is a primary stressor in these situations.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
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  • Katsuhiro 1139Katsuhiro 1139 regular Dublin, IrelandRegistered User regular
    It's reading about the sheer levels of hatred on the internet that makes me appreciate the community we have here in Penny Arcade. Wouldn't post anywhere else, wouldn't want to either.

    RoyceSraphimNocren
  • The SauceThe Sauce Fleur de Alys Registered User regular
    I'd imagine that if you just set the threshold to articulated, specific threats of violence, then people will simply push up against that threshold and still achieve the same effect.

    In the US at least, we have significant amounts of jurisprudence stating that you're allowed to say pretty awful stuff. Since context is a large factor to what ultimately is considered a threat, if we draw a bright line at "I will [blank] you", then we'll probably see people moderating their comments to things like "I hope something bad happens to you" or "If something bad happens to you, you'd deserve it" or simply variations on "kill yourself". Perhaps a victory?

    It's also probably better to avoid analogies that ignore the public nature of the internet. Your Twitter handle is not your telephone number. A telephone lets two individuals communicate over distance, and there's no easy way to broadcast to a wider audience that way. A significant portion of Twitter's purpose and appeal is that it is public, which also means that the standards for what is considered questionable communication are different. People who argue that they live their lives online will probably be met with judges that see that as living their life in public, with all the looser standards that entails, instead of seeing it as special reason to come down hard on offenders.
    Definitely a victory.

    These forums have a rule that you're not allowed to call anyone anything worse than a "silly goose." This has had a profound effect on the kind of community it has generated. Forcing people to temper their commentary at all has resulted in much more cordial communication. It's possible to still tear into someone without calling them names, but just look at how much less it happens -- and how much more polite it is even when it does happen.

    As a result:
    It's reading about the sheer levels of hatred on the internet that makes me appreciate the community we have here in Penny Arcade. Wouldn't post anywhere else, wouldn't want to either.

    I'm not saying that Twitter should eliminate name-calling from its service (nice as that would be), but reducing discourse from "I will fucking kill you" being just fine to instead "I hope you hurt yourself" would most definitely improve its overall culture.

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  • UltimanecatUltimanecat regular Registered User regular
    These forums are also heavily moderated. The expectation of relatively cordial discourse is not just an expectation, it is enforced here. Furthermore, while it helps foster intelligent conversation, I wouldn't go so far as to say all conversation everywhere needs to be cordial or intelligent.

    Twitter could moderate to a similar degree (and I personally think that that is both much more likely and much preferable to trying to broadly loosen the legal standards for criminal speech), but then it wouldn't be the same. All it takes is the perception of heavy-handedness or a lack of impartiality and Twitter loses its appeal to broad swathes of the population. "Fuck 'em", you might say, but it'd be interesting to see if Twitter retained its popularity. Twitter are certainly aware that they could do more, but don't seem that interested in moderation beyond removing posts, likely because they know which side their bread is buttered on.

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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum regular Registered User regular
    The bigger social issue to this scenario is whether there's any way to stop these feeding frenzies. When an idea of disdain goes beyond simple "this sucks" and escalates to "I'm gonna toss your baby into an oven like they did the rest of your Jewish family." For those men (like me) and women who are taught that they can set the house on fire and walk away, this situations are easy to handle, but its not fair to the rest of the world to assume that they are as strong as me. They should be, but they're not, and I would be a goose to chastise them for not being that strong.

    I don't want to pick on you, because you've obviously got the right idea, but the bolded bit strikes me as a little off.

    It's not simply that some folks are 'stronger', but rather that certain things are going to trigger feelings in some people that they don't in others. I have close friends who have been stalked, harassed, and abused through every medium available, online and in person, by frightening people. Most of those friends have, thankfully, escaped those situations and largely moved on with their lives. They are incredibly strong, they have survived things I'm not sure I could endure, but the sudden appearance of random death threats in their lives? Every bit of that shit comes rolling back at them.

    You can be hurt badly enough by something that a much less severe version of that abuse is just no longer tolerable. You're threshold is lowered significantly in that arena, no matter how well you can cope with other forms of stress. There's no 'should be stronger' about it. Maybe a few years of therapy can get them to the point where some random asshole telling them to go kill themselves doesn't cause them to completely shut down, but that shit is always going to hurt them more than somebody who's never been in an extreme situation of that nature.

    Again, not trying to pick on you, just something I wanted to comment on.

    And to be clear, I'm not suggesting everybody communicate in pillows and posies from now on, only that the horrible vile abuse we take for granted in certain online spheres could absolutely be treated as the horrible vile abuse we don't tolerate in the 'real world.'

    Ragnar Dragonfyre
  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    The bigger social issue to this scenario is whether there's any way to stop these feeding frenzies. When an idea of disdain goes beyond simple "this sucks" and escalates to "I'm gonna toss your baby into an oven like they did the rest of your Jewish family." For those men (like me) and women who are taught that they can set the house on fire and walk away, this situations are easy to handle, but its not fair to the rest of the world to assume that they are as strong as me. They should be, but they're not, and I would be a goose to chastise them for not being that strong.

    I don't want to pick on you, because you've obviously got the right idea, but the bolded bit strikes me as a little off.

    It's not simply that some folks are 'stronger', but rather that certain things are going to trigger feelings in some people that they don't in others. I have close friends who have been stalked, harassed, and abused through every medium available, online and in person, by frightening people. Most of those friends have, thankfully, escaped those situations and largely moved on with their lives. They are incredibly strong, they have survived things I'm not sure I could endure, but the sudden appearance of random death threats in their lives? Every bit of that shit comes rolling back at them.

    You can be hurt badly enough by something that a much less severe version of that abuse is just no longer tolerable. You're threshold is lowered significantly in that arena, no matter how well you can cope with other forms of stress. There's no 'should be stronger' about it. Maybe a few years of therapy can get them to the point where some random asshole telling them to go kill themselves doesn't cause them to completely shut down, but that shit is always going to hurt them more than somebody who's never been in an extreme situation of that nature.

    Again, not trying to pick on you, just something I wanted to comment on.

    And to be clear, I'm not suggesting everybody communicate in pillows and posies from now on, only that the horrible vile abuse we take for granted in certain online spheres could absolutely be treated as the horrible vile abuse we don't tolerate in the 'real world.'

    I understand, I meant "should" in the sense that in a perfect world we could weather every storm and insult like a drop of water instead of a like a mountain, a perfect world where we eat lightning and crap thunder and can make diamonds by crushing coal in our ass cheeks.

    and I meant I would be a goose to expect that because it is a special type of wrong and error to ignore the limitations and potential limitations of individuals.

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre regular Registered User regular
    The bigger social issue to this scenario is whether there's any way to stop these feeding frenzies. When an idea of disdain goes beyond simple "this sucks" and escalates to "I'm gonna toss your baby into an oven like they did the rest of your Jewish family." For those men (like me) and women who are taught that they can set the house on fire and walk away, this situations are easy to handle, but its not fair to the rest of the world to assume that they are as strong as me. They should be, but they're not, and I would be a goose to chastise them for not being that strong.

    I don't want to pick on you, because you've obviously got the right idea, but the bolded bit strikes me as a little off.

    It's not simply that some folks are 'stronger', but rather that certain things are going to trigger feelings in some people that they don't in others. I have close friends who have been stalked, harassed, and abused through every medium available, online and in person, by frightening people. Most of those friends have, thankfully, escaped those situations and largely moved on with their lives. They are incredibly strong, they have survived things I'm not sure I could endure, but the sudden appearance of random death threats in their lives? Every bit of that shit comes rolling back at them.

    You can be hurt badly enough by something that a much less severe version of that abuse is just no longer tolerable. You're threshold is lowered significantly in that arena, no matter how well you can cope with other forms of stress. There's no 'should be stronger' about it. Maybe a few years of therapy can get them to the point where some random asshole telling them to go kill themselves doesn't cause them to completely shut down, but that shit is always going to hurt them more than somebody who's never been in an extreme situation of that nature.

    Again, not trying to pick on you, just something I wanted to comment on.

    And to be clear, I'm not suggesting everybody communicate in pillows and posies from now on, only that the horrible vile abuse we take for granted in certain online spheres could absolutely be treated as the horrible vile abuse we don't tolerate in the 'real world.'

    I understand, I meant "should" in the sense that in a perfect world we could weather every storm and insult like a drop of water instead of a like a mountain, a perfect world where we eat lightning and crap thunder and can make diamonds by crushing coal in our ass cheeks.

    and I meant I would be a goose to expect that because it is a special type of wrong and error to ignore the limitations and potential limitations of individuals.

    Mental fortitude is a funny thing.

    I was bullied throughout school. Worked as a soccer referee for many years. Worked in call centre's and now in social media. I've been through multiple career paths now where verbal abuse is a common thing you face on a daily basis.

    Throughout my life I've been a direct subject of physical violence and have been subjected to more verbal abuse than anyone should.

    Last week I had my first anxiety attack at 31 years old. This is a direct result of remaining strong in the face of adverse situations for far too long.

    Some people aren't in a position to simply walk away from the abuse... especially when it's a job hazard. When you can simply walk away, it's easy. When you must remain sympathetic and friendly in the face of outright hate, it wears you down... no matter how strong you think you are.

    Things have to change.

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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre regular Registered User regular
    Oh and I just want to touch upon those saying you can simply ignore the trolls.

    Ignoring trolls is like ignoring an infection. It may go away on its own but it's more likely it'll fester and spread unless dealt with swiftly.

    Like griefers in PvP games, trolls get a rise out of getting a rise out of you. Once invested enough, they will stop at nothing to tear you down.

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    StormwatcherDalantia
  • ShenShen regular Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Shen wrote: »
    The internet isn't real life though, just like high school isn't 'real life' - they're places largely devoid of responsibility and real consequence. Like this discussion - sure it's baller that y'all are for cracking down on bullying, but the conversation itself isn't actually doing anything to further that cause. That's something that will come down to actions you take outside of these forums.

    I've never been the victim of anything more than racist speech in DotA or late night screeching from drunks. They were both unpleasant, but the drunks were far more scary due to their immediate presence, the difficulty of ignoring them and the fact that I couldn't just quit out.

    Disagree with the bolded. Discussions like this one cause people to change their minds and/or get involved all the time. As evidenced in this very thread, by your very post even, there are people here that consider this to not be a big deal, just like how I considered sexist and racist remarks not a big deal before reading through similar discussions on this very forum.

    Yeah, being active in calling people out directly is necessary. But this discussion isn't pointless.

    I didn't call it pointless, I called it without immediate consequence. The works of Sir Terry Pratchett, for example, have done a great deal to change my mind on numerous topics - that doesn't make the Discworld real life.
    A few years ago I would have agreed with you, that the internet isn't real life.

    But when someone can base their entire career online, not having a store, selling products directly to people online, using Twitter and Facebook and forums and their website as their customer service, saying the internet is largely devoid of responsibility and real consequences is no longer accurate.

    The internet is as much real life as talking on the phone or texting or sending letters or going out to lunch. An internet based interview is just as real as a sitdown or phone interview. If an upset tweet from a consumer can get a representative of a company to reach out to provide a resolution the internet is real life.

    When someone can get fired for a tweet the internet is real life.

    We may like to pretend it doesn't, but your actions on the internet do have real consequences. I mean, look at Flappy Birds. I'd say the money made from that is a real consequence of internet actions.

    Actions online can have consequences but most of the time they don't, hence "largely". Indeed, the core idea of this thread is based around introducing more consequence for the people interested in making things unpleasant for others online.

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  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim regular Registered User regular
    Something I just realized is that with all this vitrol and hubbub, we assumed Nguyen's feelings and emotional responses from a Western perspective, is it possible that being a programmer out of Vietnam, he had a different emotional context to confront the criticism and death threats?

  • XixXix regular Miami/LosAngeles/MoscowRegistered User regular
    What about the political angle? Vietnam is not the United States, could the sudden influx of cash into Nguyen's life make him a target for government corruption or gangs?

  • XixXix regular Miami/LosAngeles/MoscowRegistered User regular
    Also, if someone threatens to kill me on Twitter, and in a reply I threaten to slit his fucking throat, who would go to jail first in this situation?

  • BubbyBubby regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    The Sauce wrote: »
    I'd imagine that if you just set the threshold to articulated, specific threats of violence, then people will simply push up against that threshold and still achieve the same effect.

    In the US at least, we have significant amounts of jurisprudence stating that you're allowed to say pretty awful stuff. Since context is a large factor to what ultimately is considered a threat, if we draw a bright line at "I will [blank] you", then we'll probably see people moderating their comments to things like "I hope something bad happens to you" or "If something bad happens to you, you'd deserve it" or simply variations on "kill yourself". Perhaps a victory?

    It's also probably better to avoid analogies that ignore the public nature of the internet. Your Twitter handle is not your telephone number. A telephone lets two individuals communicate over distance, and there's no easy way to broadcast to a wider audience that way. A significant portion of Twitter's purpose and appeal is that it is public, which also means that the standards for what is considered questionable communication are different. People who argue that they live their lives online will probably be met with judges that see that as living their life in public, with all the looser standards that entails, instead of seeing it as special reason to come down hard on offenders.
    Definitely a victory.

    These forums have a rule that you're not allowed to call anyone anything worse than a "silly goose." This has had a profound effect on the kind of community it has generated. Forcing people to temper their commentary at all has resulted in much more cordial communication. It's possible to still tear into someone without calling them names, but just look at how much less it happens -- and how much more polite it is even when it does happen.

    As a result:
    It's reading about the sheer levels of hatred on the internet that makes me appreciate the community we have here in Penny Arcade. Wouldn't post anywhere else, wouldn't want to either.

    I'm not saying that Twitter should eliminate name-calling from its service (nice as that would be), but reducing discourse from "I will fucking kill you" being just fine to instead "I hope you hurt yourself" would most definitely improve its overall culture.

    The thing about the edict is that it stops people out of fear of punishment, not because they don't want to use horrible insults. I've seen many carefully worded posts on here just as laced with dismissive vitriol as anything, and that's almost more infuriating because it's "within the rules". It's better to have the edict than not, but sometimes I just wish people would say what they truly feel.

    Bubby on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    People don't really understand or voice how they feel most of the time. "You're a <bleep>" usually means "I feel vulnerable" or "I do not want to engage with you in conversation."

    And the internet is absolutely real life - it's a form of communication that provides the potential for vast power over an individual's life. People have had their lives ruined (or ended) because of the internet. The internet is made of people. It is not a single player video game with shabby AI.

    OneAngryPossumCalicaKristmas KthulhuTurkey
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom regular Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Bubby wrote: »
    The Sauce wrote: »
    I'd imagine that if you just set the threshold to articulated, specific threats of violence, then people will simply push up against that threshold and still achieve the same effect.

    In the US at least, we have significant amounts of jurisprudence stating that you're allowed to say pretty awful stuff. Since context is a large factor to what ultimately is considered a threat, if we draw a bright line at "I will [blank] you", then we'll probably see people moderating their comments to things like "I hope something bad happens to you" or "If something bad happens to you, you'd deserve it" or simply variations on "kill yourself". Perhaps a victory?

    It's also probably better to avoid analogies that ignore the public nature of the internet. Your Twitter handle is not your telephone number. A telephone lets two individuals communicate over distance, and there's no easy way to broadcast to a wider audience that way. A significant portion of Twitter's purpose and appeal is that it is public, which also means that the standards for what is considered questionable communication are different. People who argue that they live their lives online will probably be met with judges that see that as living their life in public, with all the looser standards that entails, instead of seeing it as special reason to come down hard on offenders.
    Definitely a victory.

    These forums have a rule that you're not allowed to call anyone anything worse than a "silly goose." This has had a profound effect on the kind of community it has generated. Forcing people to temper their commentary at all has resulted in much more cordial communication. It's possible to still tear into someone without calling them names, but just look at how much less it happens -- and how much more polite it is even when it does happen.

    As a result:
    It's reading about the sheer levels of hatred on the internet that makes me appreciate the community we have here in Penny Arcade. Wouldn't post anywhere else, wouldn't want to either.

    I'm not saying that Twitter should eliminate name-calling from its service (nice as that would be), but reducing discourse from "I will fucking kill you" being just fine to instead "I hope you hurt yourself" would most definitely improve its overall culture.

    The thing about the edict is that it stops people out of fear of punishment, not because they don't want to use horrible insults. I've seen many carefully worded posts on here just as laced with dismissive vitriol as anything, and that's almost more infuriating because it's "within the rules". It's better to have the edict than not, but sometimes I just wish people would say what they truly feel.

    Some people aren't going to be stopped by anything else. I wish that wasn't so, but it is.

    Someone I know was a habitual offender in their youth. They finally stopped, as near as I can tell, not because they were ever convinced that it was wrong to commit petty crimes when they got bored, or that it was hurtful to those they stole from or vandalized; instead, they got tired of losing their privileges (freedom of movement, etc etc) due to punishment by incarceration. The only thing that mattered was how it affected them.

    Commander Zoom on
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious regular Registered User regular
    The internet can affect your real life, but I've been on these forums and followed plenty of people's Twitter accounts and all that jazz, and I still wouldn't know where any of you lived outside of maybe a country, and attempts to legally enforce anti threat stuff absolutely takes into account the ability for those threats to actually be acted on.

    Which is why the internet isn't real life. I can't call lookup your Twitter account and get your home address.

    steam_sig.png
  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives regular Registered User regular
    Dude just stop torturing the logic already. It's suffered enough.

    "I see everything twice!"


    CalicaTurkey
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    The Sauce wrote: »
    I'd imagine that if you just set the threshold to articulated, specific threats of violence, then people will simply push up against that threshold and still achieve the same effect.

    In the US at least, we have significant amounts of jurisprudence stating that you're allowed to say pretty awful stuff. Since context is a large factor to what ultimately is considered a threat, if we draw a bright line at "I will [blank] you", then we'll probably see people moderating their comments to things like "I hope something bad happens to you" or "If something bad happens to you, you'd deserve it" or simply variations on "kill yourself". Perhaps a victory?

    It's also probably better to avoid analogies that ignore the public nature of the internet. Your Twitter handle is not your telephone number. A telephone lets two individuals communicate over distance, and there's no easy way to broadcast to a wider audience that way. A significant portion of Twitter's purpose and appeal is that it is public, which also means that the standards for what is considered questionable communication are different. People who argue that they live their lives online will probably be met with judges that see that as living their life in public, with all the looser standards that entails, instead of seeing it as special reason to come down hard on offenders.
    Definitely a victory.

    These forums have a rule that you're not allowed to call anyone anything worse than a "silly goose." This has had a profound effect on the kind of community it has generated. Forcing people to temper their commentary at all has resulted in much more cordial communication. It's possible to still tear into someone without calling them names, but just look at how much less it happens -- and how much more polite it is even when it does happen.

    As a result:
    It's reading about the sheer levels of hatred on the internet that makes me appreciate the community we have here in Penny Arcade. Wouldn't post anywhere else, wouldn't want to either.

    I'm not saying that Twitter should eliminate name-calling from its service (nice as that would be), but reducing discourse from "I will fucking kill you" being just fine to instead "I hope you hurt yourself" would most definitely improve its overall culture.

    The thing about the edict is that it stops people out of fear of punishment, not because they don't want to use horrible insults. I've seen many carefully worded posts on here just as laced with dismissive vitriol as anything, and that's almost more infuriating because it's "within the rules". It's better to have the edict than not, but sometimes I just wish people would say what they truly feel.

    From what I've seen of this community's management that shit actually doesn't fly, under the rule of not being a dick (rather than the glorious edict).

    Fear of punishment is a deterrent for behavior, but it isn't THE deterrent. But just because it won't solve 100% of the instances of bad behavior on the net doesn't mean it shouldn't be utilized. This problem is going to require many solutions, not just one. Life is too complex for that. This thread is about offering a solution for example; peer engagement.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    The SauceTurkey
  • AegeriAegeri regular Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited February 2014
    I thought this was actually rather appropriate to the thread given the discussion about how people online receive and perceive stress from commentators/fans:



    Edit: It was mentioned in the video, but here is Total Biscuit explaining why he left his own subreddit.

    Edit2: Here is a particularly relevant quote for the "Just ignore it" lot in this thread,
    I've read so many people with their "advice", oh... you should get a thicker skin! You should just ignore it! Those people have no idea of the volume of it all, or how constant it is, it never stops, it's day in day out 24/7, no end in sight noise. So many people talking at once... It's death by a thousand cuts. That thick skin isn't invincible, occassionally it buckles and when it does I tend to react badly. I'm not sure you actually understand just how fucked up I am. My hair is going grey, not to mention it's falling out. Yeah, my hair is grey at 29. Great right? I'm pretty sure I have chronic health problems that have been made far worse by stress. I'm even worried one of them might be life-threatening and I'm getting really paranoid about it. I fucking eat because I'm sad or angry or whatever, I have days where what should be a dream job is something I don't even want to think about doing. I'm seriously fucked in the head and I have been for a very long time. I CANNOT stop reading feedback. I can't just leave comments. I gave my Twitter to my staff months ago to try and stop me from reading it, which actually worked surprisingly. Turning off Youtube comments was great and for a while the subreddit was small enough and friendly enough that I could actually handle dealing with it. Now I dread reading it every morning and I CAN'T STOP MYSELF. God how many times have I tried to "get better?" over the last few years? Every time it's fucking failed, every time and I hate myself for it.

    Makes me wonder about some of my own conduct, such as how I reacted to the game grumps playing Wind Waker.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    darleysam
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