Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Enough is enough - Social engineering among our peers [Flappy Bird]

1356710

Posts

  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is wrong. A normal, well-adjusted person doesn't turn into a fuckwad given anonymity and audience. They were always one in the first place. Maybe they didn't show it as much without the anonymity and audience, but anonymity is not the core problem here.

    2vue7ao.png
    AegerigtrmpPLANiceguyeddie616AvalonGuardHeartlashspool32IncenjucarDhalphirRetaba
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    edited August 2013
    spool32 wrote: »
    This thread is reminding me that I should go do a set of Tribunal reviews.

    This is a pretty interesting system imo, and it seems to be working at least in part.

    Yeah, I make a point of doing my daily Tribunal cases after game with ragers and trolls.

    The PA forums used to be a much rougher place when it was younger. I've been here for ten years (OH GOD SO OLD), I've seen the gradual evolution into a much more mature community happen.

    It used to be that it was "edgy" and "cool" to call people shitfuckers in the most casual of discussions. But nowadays that's pretty much every single forum community attached to a company or a game. Official forums suck, there's no better way to express it.

    We've made a point of the PA forums being A Better Class Of Forums. It used to be edgy to be a foulmouthed poster. Now it's gone mainstream. And the PA forums are were you can go to not have to see that shit, because oh boy do we enforce it.

    In fact, the only insult we allow is "silly goose", because if you need to use anything harsher than that you probably don't have anything of value to add to the discussion anyway.

    Echo on
    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    ElvenshaeAegeriNiceguyeddie616DrakeAvalonGuardspool32Descendant XschmadsDhalphirbobwocoThegreatcowRoz
  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    The Glorious Edict, as silly as it sounded in the beginning, is probably one of the most beneficial things this forum has ever done in regards to advocating a sense of maturity in its poster roster.

    ygPIJ.gif
    Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
    EchoWraith260ElvenshaeAgahnimMorranTurkeyJusticeforPlutoagoajAegeriRainfallNiceguyeddie616DehumanizedtuxkamenRMS OceanicAthenorDrakeAsh-HousewaresMvrckAvalonGuardCommander ZoomLostNinjaAJRHeartlashspool32Oniros25AistanLoveIsUnitywebguy20Mr RayDescendant XschmadsDhalphirCalicabobwocoMahnmutForar
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Sometimes it results in the same kinda stuff you come across in TV-edits for films though.

    "DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY? DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU MEET A STRANGER IN THE ALPS?"

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    schmadsDhalphir
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    People will think twice... then the smart ones will realize they can whip up a junk e-mail address and user name and continue doing what they do.

    Stuff like Persona Non Grata, shaming, and the ilk work wonderfully in the real and personal world. In the land of anonymity called the Internet? Not so much. And every step that has ever been taken to attempt to curb said anonymity has been met with overwhelming hostility from almost everyone.

    It's a serious problem, and something should be done about it. I just don't know what you realistically can do about it.

    While this is true, having experience with this directly with people who post stupid or troll bait comments on 2kgames while they will come back, it is much less effort for me to keep spam banning them than it is for them to keep making new emails. In many cases, they don't even get their ranting seen by a single other person I can be that fast.

    I mean this community works pretty much because the mods here infract and subsequently ban these kinds of posters constantly. Not to mention that PA has a clear rule that if they find you posting with multiple accounts they ban all of your accounts.

    Your post is bizarre to me because you are posting on a forum that literally proves the model you claim won't work does.

    I could argue that the reason it works here is because - and I mean this in the absolute nicest way possible and with no offense to anybody - because this is just a semi-popular internet forum that talks about random shit and ultimately nothing and nobody here matters in the world. :) By that I mean - and again I mean no offense - nobody at large gives a shit about you Aegeri the forumer. A large group of people aren't going to send you death threats because you said Gears of War sucked.

    Things sadly change when we start dealing with people whose faces are out in the public. Now we got fuckwads sending hurtful messages and death threats to the guy who wrote the ending to Mass Effect 3. And sure, banning will deal with most of the lazy ones who are all bark and no bite and just want to scream "FUCK" at the top of their lungs. But the ones who want to keep doing it, assuming they're even just a little bit smart about it, they can keep doing it because it's so easy to just shake the etch-a-sketch of the Internet and start over again. But you are right in that the best defense against this kind of abuse is that the average person doesn't give enough of a shit to keep on doing it. They drive by, get their shot off, and if they get banned shrug and continue on with their life. Which goes back to why it works here, because nobody cares enough about your average poster to keep making account after account just for the sole purpose of harassing them.

    But like I originally said, I don't know how you can go about fixing the original problem to begin with, the Internet being what it is. About the only course so far to take is to just ignore most of it and casually ban the people who do it, hoping that most of them aren't spirited enough to continue. Which as people have said is a pretty shitty solution in and of itself.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
    PSN: TheWolfman64 3DS/Pokemon Y: 0774-4614-4065/NNID: the_wolfman64
  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    It'd be nice if there was a natural language processing program that could classify messages as hateful and dispose of them before anyone could see it.
    For audio messages, just a pass through voice recognition software would accomplish the same.
    That way, the only way to send a death threat would be to word it in a highly unusual and possibly more thoughtful and less discouraging way.

    rRootagea on
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Arch wrote: »
    It's hard enough for celebrities who are trained to be in the public spotlight to deal with this stuff. I can't imagine what it must be like for people who think they are behind the scenes. There is probably something deep in human nature about it though given how it crosses all media. You get noticed and you are a hero or a target or both. Add anonymity into the mix. More Greater Internet Greater Fuckwad Theory.

    Okay so

    What do we do about it?

    Well, for a start, people should stop insisting that those in the public eye (whether by design or accident) should just deal with open harassment with some kind of stoic resolve. 'Ignore it and it will go away' is horrible advice to give to a child being bullied. Why should that change when it's an adult who is the target?

    The problem is that there is no instant solution. You want to do something? Then do something. If you see somebody (for real or online or wherever) making threats, being a bully, or otherwise making life miserable for somebody else then speak up.

    'Lie back and think of England' is supposed to be a funny joke. Not legitimate advice.

    EDIT:
    And then there are things that should be done when the threat becomes rather more real. That's when Don't Feed The Stalker is proper advice. But that still isn't quite the same as 'just ignore it'.

    Santa Claustrophobia on
    TurkeyCommander ZoomGnome-Interruptus
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    The way to handle this is to do what most actors do. Ignore the comments section.

    They were calling her house.

    Which is hard to ignore.

    I get sales-calls. I don't even answer. Still fucking annoying.

    That's ... not exactly the same thing.

    "Just don't answer! Ignore it! It's effortless, and solves everything!"

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Great OP, but the solution is vague and difficult. This entire problem stems from free speech I think. The right to free speech is enshrined in law, Americas constitution and here in the UK by a series of very complicated laws that amount to the same thing.

    The problem, unique to the Internet, is accountability. Latched to the idea of free speech is the right to take responsibility for your own actions. The anonymity of the Internet removes those consequences. As I grow older, I find this anonymity more abhorrent, and yet I'm what would be described as a 'liberal' in America.

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Not speaking against something effectively is tacitly approving of it by allowing it to happen. That's why "don't feed the trolls" doesn't work in real life. Letting people go around spewing all their disgusting hate without ramifications or response basically tells everyone at large that this is totally okay to do, enabling those who would still have a little control to just let go and sink to their lowest, most bestial levels.

    Even if you have to ban some persistent goose ten times, you're demonstrating ten times over that their crap won't fly here. Ten different object lessons of what is not acceptable speech and behavior. But really, one time or two times swatting an ignorant kid would be enough to teach most kids that lesson, but ignoring them means that lesson is never taught.

    PLAcurly haired boyMan in the MistsAegeriGnome-Interruptus
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Great OP, but the solution is vague and difficult. This entire problem stems from free speech I think. The right to free speech is enshrined in law, Americas constitution and here in the UK by a series of very complicated laws that amount to the same thing.

    The problem, unique to the Internet, is accountability. Latched to the idea of free speech is the right to take responsibility for your own actions. The anonymity of the Internet removes those consequences. As I grow older, I find this anonymity more abhorrent, and yet I'm what would be described as a 'liberal' in America.

    Again, it isn't really anonymity. You see the same garbage in places without it.

    Feeding the troll isn't the same as banning the troll. That's why we have the report button here, not a "argue with the troll until they go away" button. When someone's entire goal is to piss you off, engaging them just doesn't work. Banning them can. At the very least it makes them STFU for a while.

  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Not speaking against something effectively is tacitly approving of it by allowing it to happen. That's why "don't feed the trolls" doesn't work in real life. Letting people go around spewing all their disgusting hate without ramifications or response basically tells everyone at large that this is totally okay to do, enabling those who would still have a little control to just let go and sink to their lowest, most bestial levels.

    Even if you have to ban some persistent goose ten times, you're demonstrating ten times over that their crap won't fly here. Ten different object lessons of what is not acceptable speech and behavior. But really, one time or two times swatting an ignorant kid would be enough to teach most kids that lesson, but ignoring them means that lesson is never taught.

    Absolutly

    Though, there's something I really need to add to this:

    The problem with it is, that you have to actually explain why it is wrong and try to get into an actual discussion with the perpetrator (Not to have a *two people yelling at each other*). Also at least try to get a superficial overview of the whole situation before you act.

    It's easy to forget that fanatics exists on either side in every discussion.

    C2B on
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Great OP, but the solution is vague and difficult. This entire problem stems from free speech I think. The right to free speech is enshrined in law, Americas constitution and here in the UK by a series of very complicated laws that amount to the same thing.

    The problem, unique to the Internet, is accountability. Latched to the idea of free speech is the right to take responsibility for your own actions. The anonymity of the Internet removes those consequences. As I grow older, I find this anonymity more abhorrent, and yet I'm what would be described as a 'liberal' in America.

    Again, it isn't really anonymity. You see the same garbage in places without it.

    Feeding the troll isn't the same as banning the troll. That's why we have the report button here, not a "argue with the troll until they go away" button. When someone's entire goal is to piss you off, engaging them just doesn't work. Banning them can. At the very least it makes them STFU for a while.

    Also, the right to free speech does not come with the right to be free from criticism for that speech. The problem, if there is one, with free speech is that most people don't seem to actually realise what that means.
    C2B wrote: »
    The problem with it is, that you have to actually explain why it is wrong and try to get into an actual discussion with the perpetrator (Not to have a *two people yelling at each other*).

    Eh, maybe. This idea is noble enough, but it presumes too much of a good faith argument from the other side. Like the man said 'some people just want to see the world burn'. An anonymous GIFTer with an entrenched sense of righteousness is all but impossible to talk to reasonably. You'll see it all over the place how somebody will just keep insisting over and over how some pub or dev it ruining things by doing X thing. No matter how reasonable you try to be in explaining reasons why, they just don't want to hear it. You'll even see them claim some press release explaining whatever issue is just bald-faced lies.

    Some people just don't want to know.

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    The thing about "don't feed the trolls" is that it assumes that the people engaging in this behavior are doing it just to get attention.

    The reality is there's a fair amount of them (I'm not going to claim all; the above do exist to some extent or another) think this is an appropriate means of expressing themselves or communicating with others. Ignoring them doesn't deny them what they're after. It may cause them to shout louder or be more ridiculous. Which is hard to imagine where it could go from here since it's already at this awful critical mass to begin with.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Gnome-InterruptusCalica
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    It depresses me to no end that the gaming community has only gotten worse, not better, since Child's Play was founded specifically to present gamers in a better light.

    Hell.. seeing things like Awesome Games Done Quick accompanied by vitriolic, sexist, downright disturbing comments just.. really, really bothers me.

    Of course, this extends outside the realm of this thread, and this forum, and extends to most areas of public discourse where we are all islands and others don't matter.. But constraining it to video games..

    I mentioned a bit back how my brother was saying some extremely hateful things during a game of DOTA, and I called him on it. His rebuttal that it was fun and that it was just to rile up the enemy didn't hold any water with me... especially knowing that he's also admitted to not being as violent/angry back when he gave up LoL for a time.

    Could it just be that we've taken to not thinking other people are.. like.. actual people?

    Official member of the Grilling Gentry
    "Brevity is the soul of getting your shit read." - Tube
    Rarely-updated Collecting blog
    He/Him
  • C2BC2B SwitzerlandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Some people just don't want to know.

    Doesn't mean you should stop trying. Ever.

    And at least trying a reasonable discussion should be the first reaction. If it plays out or not. In many cases this can wield new information.

    Just meant to be a reminder.

    Call out and stop anger. Don't use it to satisfy your own.





    C2B on
    Oniros25
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    It depresses me to no end that the gaming community has only gotten worse, not better, since Child's Play was founded specifically to present gamers in a better light.

    Hell.. seeing things like Awesome Games Done Quick accompanied by vitriolic, sexist, downright disturbing comments just.. really, really bothers me.

    Of course, this extends outside the realm of this thread, and this forum, and extends to most areas of public discourse where we are all islands and others don't matter.. But constraining it to video games..

    I mentioned a bit back how my brother was saying some extremely hateful things during a game of DOTA, and I called him on it. His rebuttal that it was fun and that it was just to rile up the enemy didn't hold any water with me... especially knowing that he's also admitted to not being as violent/angry back when he gave up LoL for a time.

    Could it just be that we've taken to not thinking other people are.. like.. actual people?

    If you want to dive real deep into it, I think Angry Video Game Nerd type personalities (well, if they can be called that) also aren't helping. In a sense they drum up their viewers into communicating in similar fashion. It's typical "this appeals to me, I want to mimic it" behavior. Which we all do for all sorts of things in life, whatever. But the people out there, like AVGN himself, that are doing it as a shtick need to make it clearer that they are performing and maybe think it's actually stupid to be angry about video games.

    There's a lot of angles to express yourself as a fan of video games, which means there's a lot of ways to set examples. Lets Players, streamers, long players, reviewers, etc etc etc all these people can help by pointing out this behavior is crap. They don't have to sacrifice their entertainment value to do it, just to be clear.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Yeah, I can see that. I've always made a case that somewhere, there are people making these games.. and while they may not be the best, it's sure as hell more than I've done.

    Still, what do you do in that case? Start the video with a disclaimer that it's a parody? Not do it in that style in the first place?

    Official member of the Grilling Gentry
    "Brevity is the soul of getting your shit read." - Tube
    Rarely-updated Collecting blog
    He/Him
  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I don't think that's necessarily a "video game culture" issue. Yeah, I can get rather ridiculously pissed off at a video game. I can also get equally pissed off doing arts and crafts. And if somebody should happen to engage me in that state, I'll very likely snap at them, even though it's not their fault and I'll apologise afterwards. It's just the fact that people can't instantly switch their emotions on and off. However, if video games are unique, it's that there's a multiplayer aspect to some games, and an instant outlet right there.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
    PSN: TheWolfman64 3DS/Pokemon Y: 0774-4614-4065/NNID: the_wolfman64
  • OtakingOtaking Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    It depresses me to no end that the gaming community has only gotten worse, not better, since Child's Play was founded specifically to present gamers in a better light.

    Hell.. seeing things like Awesome Games Done Quick accompanied by vitriolic, sexist, downright disturbing comments just.. really, really bothers me.

    Of course, this extends outside the realm of this thread, and this forum, and extends to most areas of public discourse where we are all islands and others don't matter.. But constraining it to video games..

    I mentioned a bit back how my brother was saying some extremely hateful things during a game of DOTA, and I called him on it. His rebuttal that it was fun and that it was just to rile up the enemy didn't hold any water with me... especially knowing that he's also admitted to not being as violent/angry back when he gave up LoL for a time.

    Could it just be that we've taken to not thinking other people are.. like.. actual people?

    I'm depressed about this post also, even if there wasn't a direct line drawn between cause and effect with the OP correction it's reasons like these that I still don't talk about my hobbies in public.

    Personally I'm a huge nerd and substitute my minimum requirement of real social interaction with computer tools so that's going to contribute to my personal dehumanization of others, especially in a forum posting environment. I haven't known the names of any of my neighbors in many years for instance. It's certainly easier to attack people for the ideas they represent rather than empathize with them in a text-based discussion. Most of us love simulated combat, PVP, and winning arguments.

    Regarding anonymity being such a huge factor I'm not too sure. Personally my friends and I in the past have elevated trash talk to an art form standing face to face at a Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat console, or across a deck of M:TG. We were always better friends at the end of the day though, which is much different than the usual situation when you get the urge to trash talk anonymous gamers.

    I've said some of the most douchey stuff during FPS jags so testosterone and/or adrenaline are certainly factors. Having been an underdeveloped nerd for a great deal of childhood I tend to have a disproportionate defense response when I feel slighted upon also.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    I don't think that's necessarily a "video game culture" issue. Yeah, I can get rather ridiculously pissed off at a video game. I can also get equally pissed off doing arts and crafts. And if somebody should happen to engage me in that state, I'll very likely snap at them, even though it's not their fault and I'll apologise afterwards. It's just the fact that people can't instantly switch their emotions on and off. However, if video games are unique, it's that there's a multiplayer aspect to some games, and an instant outlet right there.

    I get angry about things too.. I've never had the urge to hunt down on the internet the contact information for anyone involved in making them to specifically threaten their family with death over it...

    And it's not like it's just part of the internet. Miiverse shows that there's a place for civil debate, although that is extremely heavily moderated...

    I wonder if it has something to do with parents not monitoring what their kids do? Or not caring.. I mean, I have plenty of friends who are okay with their kids playing multiplayer CoD at 10-13, but they claim to watch/moderate them too..

    Official member of the Grilling Gentry
    "Brevity is the soul of getting your shit read." - Tube
    Rarely-updated Collecting blog
    He/Him
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Otaking wrote: »
    I've said some of the most douchey stuff during FPS jags so testosterone and/or adrenaline are certainly factors. Having been an underdeveloped nerd for a great deal of childhood I tend to have a disproportionate defense response when I feel slighted upon also.

    This is super tangential but this is something I attribute to bad parenting. Video games are such a stigma, even right now when it comes to kids playing them, that parents dismiss them and don't really get involved - nor are they advised to get involved. And that's dangerous.

    For all other facets of a kid's life, a parent will be present enough to teach them how to cope with things not going their way. Lost the baseball game? You win some, you lose some, but there's always another game and it's always important to maintain sportsmanship regardless.

    None of those lessons are present for kids that come up playing games. So you just get someone having unchecked adrenaline, and eventually coming to just expect it as the normal, acceptable reaction.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    OtakingAlbino BunnyWraith260Niceguyeddie616spool32schmads
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    That's dangerously close to the argument that games cause violence. Sure, bad parenting can be an issue. But it isn't going to completely be bad parenting at fault when you scream in rage of the 27th straight loss to some cheap move, exploit, or other random bit of luck.

    Sometimes you need to identify when that cycle begins to build up and then just walk away. For an hour. A day. Whatever.

    Some of us probably grew up as latch-key kids being babysat by the TV. And most of them probably aren't thinking of making threats to anybody (once they've calmed down).

    In this case, the issue isn't bad parenting, it's instant response. Just how many here fill in the comment box and then just click Post Reply without fully considering what they've written? Up in an instant, without pause. Anybody ever type out some long drawn out reply only do decide 'Nah! Not worth it.' and then clear the draft? Did your parents teach you that?

    People do the dumbest shit because they think they can get away with it. For whatever their reason. Blaming it on parenting is just as easy as blaming it on the games themselves. Or too much sugar. Or watching too much Power Rangers. Or whatever else pops into somebody's head.

    Drake
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    That's dangerously close to the argument that games cause violence. Sure, bad parenting can be an issue. But it isn't going to completely be bad parenting at fault when you scream in rage of the 27th straight loss to some cheap move, exploit, or other random bit of luck.

    Sometimes you need to identify when that cycle begins to build up and then just walk away. For an hour. A day. Whatever.

    Some of us probably grew up as latch-key kids being babysat by the TV. And most of them probably aren't thinking of making threats to anybody (once they've calmed down).

    In this case, the issue isn't bad parenting, it's instant response. Just how many here fill in the comment box and then just click Post Reply without fully considering what they've written? Up in an instant, without pause. Anybody ever type out some long drawn out reply only do decide 'Nah! Not worth it.' and then clear the draft? Did your parents teach you that?

    People do the dumbest shit because they think they can get away with it. For whatever their reason. Blaming it on parenting is just as easy as blaming it on the games themselves. Or too much sugar. Or watching too much Power Rangers. Or whatever else pops into somebody's head.

    It's about absence of parental guidance. The only way video games are involved are that they're the New Thing™.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    spool32schmads
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    I know what you meant. Doesn't make it any better an argument. Prominent people in the media right now suggest that minority youths turn to violence and crime because of single-parent homes with little to no supervision or proper parental oversight.

    It's still bullshit to say it for games. People aren't acting like douchebags because their parents weren't around. They're acting like douchebags because they believe they can get away with it.

    I know we like to say that people online are all just a bunch of thirteen year olds. But not every internet asshole is thirteen and they didn't all grow up with spotty parental supervision. To make such a specious accusation without any real evidence is no better than to claim that Doom caused Columbine. There is no easy solution to any of this because there is no easy cause.

    Turkey
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Thanks so much for this thread.

    When I heard about Phil Fish quitting game development I felt awful. Not because of FEZ 2 getting canceled.

    Look at it from his perspective. The man was creating things and people were telling him to go fuck himself, that he should never have even conceived of doing game development, that he wasn't worth anyone's time. It is not an excuse to grind someone into dust just because you kind of don't like him.

    Imagine if you had your dream job. Then imagine that thousands of people thought you were shit for doing that job, and telling you incessantly to go fuck yourself or kill yourself or that you should go hug your family because they were going to hunt them down and kill them. Some people can take that mind of abuse. Some internalize it and take it to heart. That's just how people are. You can't change that. People are different! Shocker, I know.

    The cause of this is not easy to eliminate. The solution is not easy to implement. But both are very clear. Some people are assholes and truly believe that what they are saying and doing is okay, because they think they are hiding behind the Internet. They are hiding behind nothing. They are still people. They have been deluded into thinking they are invincible and that their victims are faceless robots.

    How do we counter this? Be thoughtful and empathetic. Don't show outright hatred. Telling a developer "your game sucks because its not perfect for me" is wrong. Offer suggestions calmly, succinctly, and without telling creators that they are trash because of creative decisions. You can be vocal without being awful to people. Tell people when they have done something awesome and that you like their work. Give creators a reason to keep going.

    In short? Be vocally positive. It's not going to be an instant change. Be a part of the solution, not the problem.

    If you take one thing from this, let it be this;

    No one deserves being treated less than human.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    NocrenDrakeBrocksMulletNiceguyeddie616Oniros25
  • NocrenNocren Lt Futz, Back in Action North CarolinaRegistered User regular
    While I agree, I still feel that sometimes this is the best course of action...



    Some people need to see an example, and some need to BE the example.

    newSig.jpg
  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    Finally, a cause for web tracking the NSA could be appreciated for doing.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    The way to handle this is to do what most actors do. Ignore the comments section.

    They were calling her house.

    Which is hard to ignore.

    I get sales-calls. I don't even answer. Still fucking annoying.

    That's ... not exactly the same thing.

    "Just don't answer! Ignore it! It's effortless, and solves everything!"

    With the quotations marks, I assume you're being sarcastic? Like, of course it isn't the same thing, and we agree on this?

    Or are you making the argument that death threats over the phone and unsolicited sales calls are of the same level and can be compared equally?

    I'm bad at text over the internet, so I thought I'd double check before I went any further.

    SrUxdlb.jpg
  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    Using Phil Fish as an example when he pretty much spent his day saying the most trollish things you can imagine on his twitter and to the press isn't exactly a valid example in my mind.

    As for the 'hunting people down to tell them to die' bit, that happens in any industry wherein you can find these people. It happens in arts and crafts for people like Martha Stewart, TV shows, books, movies, newspapers, radio. Pretty much any place you can locate the makers of your stuff, there are people raging at them.

    Hell, working at retail during the holidays I can say I've gotten a fair few death threats from people who couldn't find the right radio clock and I wasn't trying hard enough to help them.

    Thinking this is some "video game culture"-centric thing is a bit off to me.

    That being said, the people being harrassed should go out of their way to do something about it. Simply because they are in a position to. Police won't take third party reports. They have to do it if they want something done about it. The same is true of phone records and everything else. Were the world a utopia, then sure, it's acceptable to think the people being attacked should be able to just sit back and have it resolved for them. In the end, that isn't much the case, and the people who are being targeted have the choice to either be part of the solution or to 'ignore' it by pawning it off on public media and doing nothing themselves.

    The latter really accomplishes nothing, as 'cyber bullying' has been a big ticket news item on national television since the 90s and it's not actually gotten any better. But in places wherein the victims have taken a step up and made sure any such bullying is met with legal action and actual repercussions? The incidents tend to decline heavily.

    steam_sig.png
    Magic Pink
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I could argue that the reason it works here is because - and I mean this in the absolute nicest way possible and with no offense to anybody - because this is just a semi-popular internet forum that talks about random shit and ultimately nothing and nobody here matters in the world. :) By that I mean - and again I mean no offense - nobody at large gives a shit about you Aegeri the forumer. A large group of people aren't going to send you death threats because you said Gears of War sucked.

    And yet I have had death threats, threats to my wife and other hideous things said to me on other sites - which are notably smaller than this one - on some of my opinions when it comes to having a better representation of women in games. It's a particularly toxic subject and I would say, without question, this is one of the few places such a discussion can actually progress without it going down the toilet like it does elsewhere. Plus I want to emphasize again that this forum is actually substantially larger and more active than a lot of the other sites I could actually list.

    This forum has the only model on the internet that I have seen actually genuinely work and that is to ban idiots when they appear and keep doing it.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    NocrenGnome-InterruptusDrakeMagic PinkElvenshaeschmads
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Using Phil Fish as an example when he pretty much spent his day saying the most trollish things you can imagine on his twitter and to the press isn't exactly a valid example in my mind.

    It's a perfect example. He was vocal and kind of a douche, but people treated him and everything he did as some sort of heinous crime against humanity and drove him from the thing he loved doing and are happy about it.

    I will reiterate; no one deserves to be treated less than equal. For any reason.
    The latter really accomplishes nothing, as 'cyber bullying' has been a big ticket news item on national television since the 90s and it's not actually gotten any better. But in places wherein the victims have taken a step up and made sure any such bullying is met with legal action and actual repercussions? The incidents tend to decline heavily.

    I would genuinely like to see a source for this, if you have it.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
  • MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Henroid wrote: »
    Sometimes it results in the same kinda stuff you come across in TV-edits for films though.

    "DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY? DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU MEET A STRANGER IN THE ALPS?"

    It's gotten to the point where I'll use Silly Goose in real life (or variants) when the gravity of a debate or verbal fight escalates.

    People don't seem to understand that when I drop the SG bomb, I fuckin' mean business.

    MalReynolds on
    "A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
    "Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
    My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
    ElvenshaeOniros25TurkeyJusticeforPlutoschmadsCalicabobwocoKristmas KthulhuForar
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Otaking wrote: »
    I've said some of the most douchey stuff during FPS jags so testosterone and/or adrenaline are certainly factors. Having been an underdeveloped nerd for a great deal of childhood I tend to have a disproportionate defense response when I feel slighted upon also.

    This is super tangential but this is something I attribute to bad parenting. Video games are such a stigma, even right now when it comes to kids playing them, that parents dismiss them and don't really get involved - nor are they advised to get involved. And that's dangerous.

    For all other facets of a kid's life, a parent will be present enough to teach them how to cope with things not going their way. Lost the baseball game? You win some, you lose some, but there's always another game and it's always important to maintain sportsmanship regardless.

    None of those lessons are present for kids that come up playing games. So you just get someone having unchecked adrenaline, and eventually coming to just expect it as the normal, acceptable reaction.

    This is a sensible argument and I agree with it. As a gamer and a parent of three teenagers, this is absolutely a thing I've noticed. I've had the weirdest conversations... I had to ban the 13yr old from LoL because he was intentionally trolling / feeding and thought it was hilarious, then sit him down and have a conversation about why it was bad because nobody had ever explained it in human terms to him...

    Times are weird, yo. I definitely think there's a component here where parents aren't recognizing that the same lessons that you hope to teach your kids about sportsmanship and losing with grace need to be applied to the online spaces they inhabit.

    Of course, the flip side to that is recognition that an afternoon of pick-up basketball can be just as full of entitled assholes as an afternoon of LoL. The cross-pollination is very apparent once you start thinking a little differently about what you're actually doing when you sit down to play MP online.

    HenroidNocrenCommander Zoomschmads
  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Using Phil Fish as an example when he pretty much spent his day saying the most trollish things you can imagine on his twitter and to the press isn't exactly a valid example in my mind.

    It's a perfect example. He was vocal and kind of a douche, but people treated him and everything he did as some sort of heinous crime against humanity and drove him from the thing he loved doing and are happy about it.

    I will reiterate; no one deserves to be treated less than equal. For any reason.

    And they were responding to him doing exactly that. He was no where near "kind of a douche", he was repeatedly being ridiculously rude and immature.

    Magic Pink on
    Commander Zoom
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    The way to handle this is to do what most actors do. Ignore the comments section.

    They were calling her house.

    Which is hard to ignore.

    I get sales-calls. I don't even answer. Still fucking annoying.

    That's ... not exactly the same thing.

    "Just don't answer! Ignore it! It's effortless, and solves everything!"

    With the quotations marks, I assume you're being sarcastic? Like, of course it isn't the same thing, and we agree on this?

    Or are you making the argument that death threats over the phone and unsolicited sales calls are of the same level and can be compared equally?

    I'm bad at text over the internet, so I thought I'd double check before I went any further.

    Climb up the quote-tree, and you'll find a topic of whether or not ignoring unwanted phonecalls is a satisfactory solution.

  • Oniros25Oniros25 Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Using Phil Fish as an example when he pretty much spent his day saying the most trollish things you can imagine on his twitter and to the press isn't exactly a valid example in my mind.

    It's a perfect example. He was vocal and kind of a douche, but people treated him and everything he did as some sort of heinous crime against humanity and drove him from the thing he loved doing and are happy about it.

    I will reiterate; no one deserves to be treated less than equal. For any reason.

    And they were responding to him doing exactly that. He was no where near "kind of a douche", he was repeatedly being ridiculously rude and immature.

    There's two sides to it, right? On one hand, don't start none, won't be none. That's on him. On the other, two wrongs certainly don't make a right. That's on all of us out here in internet land. One of those things we have a modicrum of control over. The other, we have none.

    Nintendo Network ID: Oniros
    3DS Friend Code: 1461-7489-3097
    AvalonGuardCommander Zoom
  • FremFrem Registered User regular
    Oniros25 wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Using Phil Fish as an example when he pretty much spent his day saying the most trollish things you can imagine on his twitter and to the press isn't exactly a valid example in my mind.

    It's a perfect example. He was vocal and kind of a douche, but people treated him and everything he did as some sort of heinous crime against humanity and drove him from the thing he loved doing and are happy about it.

    I will reiterate; no one deserves to be treated less than equal. For any reason.

    And they were responding to him doing exactly that. He was no where near "kind of a douche", he was repeatedly being ridiculously rude and immature.

    There's two sides to it, right? On one hand, don't start none, won't be none. That's on him. On the other, two wrongs certainly don't make a right. That's on all of us out here in internet land. One of those things we have a modicrum of control over. The other, we have none.

    I'm not entirely convinced that Phil Fish really started it. Many other indie developers treated him kind of poorly (although I've only seen one who had the guts to apologize), and the drama spilled over outside the indie game community. Fish didn't have much patience about things like the Japan misquote that came up over and over, and he definitely escalated the trolling by responding in kind.

    I suppose that's neither here nor there, though. There's no excuse for the kind of abuse he was constantly getting bombarded with towards the end.

  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    The way to handle this is to do what most actors do. Ignore the comments section.

    They were calling her house.

    Which is hard to ignore.

    I get sales-calls. I don't even answer. Still fucking annoying.

    That's ... not exactly the same thing.

    "Just don't answer! Ignore it! It's effortless, and solves everything!"

    With the quotations marks, I assume you're being sarcastic? Like, of course it isn't the same thing, and we agree on this?

    Or are you making the argument that death threats over the phone and unsolicited sales calls are of the same level and can be compared equally?

    I'm bad at text over the internet, so I thought I'd double check before I went any further.

    Climb up the quote-tree, and you'll find a topic of whether or not ignoring unwanted phonecalls is a satisfactory solution.

    I assumed you were making a comparison that an annoying (but ignorable) call from a telemarketer and a death threat over the phone were basically the same and should be treated as such (as an annoying reality, but ultimately no big deal).

    Another reading of your comment could be that phone calls (even ones as minor as sales calls) are difficult to ignore, and thus advising someone to "just ignore" phone calls (in this case death threats) won't work.

    Is the second reading of your comment one you would agree with? And if not, maybe you could clarify your position.

    SrUxdlb.jpg
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I don't think that's necessarily a "video game culture" issue. Yeah, I can get rather ridiculously pissed off at a video game. I can also get equally pissed off doing arts and crafts. And if somebody should happen to engage me in that state, I'll very likely snap at them, even though it's not their fault and I'll apologise afterwards. It's just the fact that people can't instantly switch their emotions on and off. However, if video games are unique, it's that there's a multiplayer aspect to some games, and an instant outlet right there.

    I gotta admit, I snickered at the image of going "needlepoint is bullshit! GG noob yarn fuck this shit!!!!" and throwing it across the room, where it floats down and lands in a gentle heap.

    AthenorElvenshaeAegeriJusticeforPlutoPLADarkewolfeRhesus PositiveWraith260schmadsCalicaSyngyneMrGrimoire
Sign In or Register to comment.