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Enough is enough - Social engineering among our peers [Flappy Bird]

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Posts

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    But really, ask yourself this: Why are you so focused on putting the victim under scrutiny, rather than the abusers?

    They are dicks, but there isn't much to say about them. It's just terrible someone would throw away so much money because they didn't understand you didn't have to check your twitter.

    Also, why are you so focused on being racist in this thread? Just sayin'.

    Please don't shit up this thread.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    And the reason that I, for example, have little sympathy for him is because I'm sure, given the choice, literally billions of people would trade places with him in a heartbeat. I have a job, and I'd love to get paid to do whatever I want under the condition my social media page would be filled with people telling me to kill myself.

    If you wish you could trade places with someone living in Vietnam who had a sudden windfall, you are an incredible fool.

    With Love and Courage
    CambiataMr RayStormwatcherRoyceSraphimRagnar Dragonfyre
  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    You mean taking control of your life and being a responsible adult? For shame, that's internet impossible, to even suggest as such is victim shaming and makes you a horrible person.

    Because places like Reddit or 4Chan have never gone on internet witch hunts to track people down, amirite? I'm almost insulted that you would even imply that anyone who tries to put themselves out there should just expect to be shit on, and is in fact the responsible party for not being a "responsible adult".

    In fact, I am insulted by that. It's insulting. I'm not even going to say goosey, it's flat insulting.

    Then be insulted. Are you going to remove all your posts, too?

    The fact of the matter is, he went out and tried to sell something. He was making money. He put his face on it. I can literally pick anyone on the internet who has done this and you can find all kinds of bad things people have said about them and to them.

    Amazingly, the people who simply separate life and work... You know, like most 'actual' jobs that people make money off of? They tend to avoid these issues. It's shocking, yes, but you can do business, make games, promote things, all without integrating that feedback into your everyday life! I know a lot of people in this day and age don't seem to understand that the internet actually turns off. I feel ya, it's a cold and scary world without the interweb trucks.

    In fact, this kind of thing happens everywhere, all the time! No matter what you do in life, I would bet money people are talking shit! Why, coworkers! Strangers! Customers! That guy you saw at Chipotle! All of them! That is, tried and true, human nature. In fact, its evident by all the judgemental statements people are making in this thread! They know nothing about any of the tweeters. Maybe their dog just died. Maybe they are fans of the game (Piou piou?) he blatantly ripped off and they feel bad for the guy whos ideas were stolen. Maybe they are failed game makers who tried for years and this guy stumbled on something then throws it away. Why, so many reasons!

    But it doesn't matter because they are below your threshold for 'what matters' so they are just horrible scum who should be thrown in jail and have their life ruined. That's cool.

    steam_sig.png
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Justifying disgusting behavior "because it's human" is awful. Lets not do that.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    AegeriHenroidOneAngryPossumCambiataPreciousBodilyFluidsLostNinjaLilnoobsJeedandarleysamBloodsheedThe SauceJediabiwanStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRagnar Dragonfyre
  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    You mean taking control of your life and being a responsible adult? For shame, that's internet impossible, to even suggest as such is victim shaming and makes you a horrible person.

    Because places like Reddit or 4Chan have never gone on internet witch hunts to track people down, amirite? I'm almost insulted that you would even imply that anyone who tries to put themselves out there should just expect to be shit on, and is in fact the responsible party for not being a "responsible adult".

    In fact, I am insulted by that. It's insulting. I'm not even going to say goosey, it's flat insulting.

    Then be insulted. Are you going to remove all your posts, too?

    The fact of the matter is, he went out and tried to sell something. He was making money. He put his face on it. I can literally pick anyone on the internet who has done this and you can find all kinds of bad things people have said about them and to them.

    Amazingly, the people who simply separate life and work... You know, like most 'actual' jobs that people make money off of? They tend to avoid these issues. It's shocking, yes, but you can do business, make games, promote things, all without integrating that feedback into your everyday life! I know a lot of people in this day and age don't seem to understand that the internet actually turns off. I feel ya, it's a cold and scary world without the interweb trucks.

    In fact, this kind of thing happens everywhere, all the time! No matter what you do in life, I would bet money people are talking shit! Why, coworkers! Strangers! Customers! That guy you saw at Chipotle! All of them! That is, tried and true, human nature. In fact, its evident by all the judgemental statements people are making in this thread! They know nothing about any of the tweeters. Maybe their dog just died. Maybe they are fans of the game (Piou piou?) he blatantly ripped off and they feel bad for the guy whos ideas were stolen. Maybe they are failed game makers who tried for years and this guy stumbled on something then throws it away. Why, so many reasons!

    But it doesn't matter because they are below your threshold for 'what matters' so they are just horrible scum who should be thrown in jail and have their life ruined. That's cool.
    Your ignorance is appalling. The fact that other people have been mistreated doesn't justify or lessen the bad behavior aimed at Nguyen or anyone else. It's been revealed that a number of developers have been treated in a similar manner by asshats over the internet. Guess what? It made their lives difficult too. But I guess since some guy at a restaurant was rude to you death threats against video game devs and their children are perfectly fine.

    "I see everything twice!"


    AegeriCambiataPreciousBodilyFluidsAvalonGuardLanrutconBloodsheedThe SauceStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRagnar Dragonfyre
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    But really, ask yourself this: Why are you so focused on putting the victim under scrutiny, rather than the abusers?

    They are dicks, but there isn't much to say about them. It's just terrible someone would throw away so much money because they didn't understand you didn't have to check your twitter.

    Also, why are you so focused on being racist in this thread? Just sayin'.

    You keep coming back to this, and it's really frustrating. I've never found a reliable way to communicate what I generally want to communicate here, but:

    Some people cannot walk away from the things that you find it easy to walk away from. You seem focused on the particulars of this incident. A guy received abusive bullshit through a social media forum while receiving a significant amount of money. Being that he lives in today's world, that dude likely enjoys money as much as you. Hell, I too would enjoy more money than I currently have.

    But he walked away from it because something caused him to feel badly enough that it wasn't worth it. You think that's silly, because you don't share his troubles. You have walked a different path than him, and you are going to experience things differently. I'm sure there are things that you find borderline intolerable that he would laugh about. Don't judge the situation by placing yourself into it and then assessing how you would react, hoping to find the 'proper' response. Think about what would make you respond the way that person did in this situation. What amount of duress would you have to be under to think walking away from that huge pile of cash is the right choice? He hit his limit.

    If you have yet to find your limits, you are blessed, and I honestly hope you never have to see them, though I find that doubtful. It can be a very painful discovery, though a helpful one.

    If money overrides all other things for you, which I also find doubtful, than I don't really know where to go from here.
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Zero tolerance is one of the worst ideas to come out of the human mind in a long time. It rarely solves the problem in question, and in almost every case I've ever seen does more harm than good as it catches up edge cases in it's dragnet. It hasn't worked for: Drugs, fighting in schools, bullying, cheating on tests, or any number of ridiculous human behaviors. Why would it work now?

    Zero tolerance doesn't always have to mean punitive action. It can simply mean not letting terrible behavior be treated as if it's normal. Somebody says stupid shit like this, they need to be made to understand what they've done to hurt somebody. It's hippy-dippy fruitfly shit, but the problem here isn't that human's are awful, it's that people generally suck at getting outside of their own heads, especially when not face to face with somebody else's suffering.

    Communicating empathy isn't easy, and I know every thirteen year old boy (and many girls as well, I'm sure, though it certainly seems that men are far worse at this on average) in the world would roll his eyes at the idea of understanding feelings, but a quiet talk and a little understanding goes a long way, especially at a young age. I honestly didn't have the slightest real inkling of what an obtuse, shortsighted asshole I could be until I was something arguably resembling an adult. It took a number of patient, understanding, loving, and stubborn as fuck people to crack through some of the bullshit ego I insisted on clinging to, and it took me finding myself in a tremendously painful, inescapable situation to really get the message through.

    I'd hope that second half would be avoidable for others if we took a zero tolerance approach that was based on communication and education rather than locking people up (Edit: Which, of course, nobody is suggesting. Save the more hyperbolic folks who just want everybody to get over the fact that people are being treated horribly.)

    OneAngryPossum on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    The one thing that I think ought to be kept in mind in this discussion is that "the victims should ignore it" and "society should do something about it" are NOT mutually exclusive! Ignoring the bullies helps the victim deal with the symptoms of the abuse and harassment, while society targeting them helps tackle the source of the abuse.

    I don't think society should be ignoring the bullies, and I don't think ignoring them will make them go away, but it IS a valid coping mechanism for the victim.

    LilnoobsJediabiwanTurkeyRoyceSraphim
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    You mean taking control of your life and being a responsible adult? For shame, that's internet impossible, to even suggest as such is victim shaming and makes you a horrible person.

    Because places like Reddit or 4Chan have never gone on internet witch hunts to track people down, amirite? I'm almost insulted that you would even imply that anyone who tries to put themselves out there should just expect to be shit on, and is in fact the responsible party for not being a "responsible adult".

    In fact, I am insulted by that. It's insulting. I'm not even going to say goosey, it's flat insulting.

    Then be insulted. Are you going to remove all your posts, too?

    The fact of the matter is, he went out and tried to sell something. He was making money. He put his face on it. I can literally pick anyone on the internet who has done this and you can find all kinds of bad things people have said about them and to them.

    ...And?

    The fact that this has happened in the past & continues to happen doesn't attach any ethical value to the action, neither does the fact that the vitriol was in response to sales figures.
    Amazingly, the people who simply separate life and work... You know, like most 'actual' jobs that people make money off of? They tend to avoid these issues. It's shocking, yes, but you can do business, make games, promote things, all without integrating that feedback into your everyday life! I know a lot of people in this day and age don't seem to understand that the internet actually turns off. I feel ya, it's a cold and scary world without the interweb trucks.

    Creating a game (or any work) is an actual job, as is publishing & marketing your works afterward. It's not simple to just 'disconnect' your business from feedback mechanisms or media services - and if your product becomes popular, it is not simple to stop people from tracking you down to talk to you. If you knew anything about publishing or celebrity, you'd never assert the contrary.

    You also don't get to tell people which outlets for communication they ought to tune into or out of during their life.
    In fact, this kind of thing happens everywhere, all the time! No matter what you do in life, I would bet money people are talking shit! Why, coworkers! Strangers! Customers! That guy you saw at Chipotle! All of them! That is, tried and true, human nature. In fact, its evident by all the judgemental statements people are making in this thread! They know nothing about any of the tweeters. Maybe their dog just died. Maybe they are fans of the game (Piou piou?) he blatantly ripped off and they feel bad for the guy whos ideas were stolen. Maybe they are failed game makers who tried for years and this guy stumbled on something then throws it away. Why, so many reasons!

    But it doesn't matter because they are below your threshold for 'what matters' so they are just horrible scum who should be thrown in jail and have their life ruined. That's cool.

    I'm curious where you received your expert education on human nature from, speaking wit such authority and all? With whom did you publish your paper on 'tried and true human nature'?

    Sure, maybe the folks down at Bailey's coffee shop talk shit about me (I doubt it, but hey, maybe). What they don't do is come harass me / issue deaths threats to my person all day long, which is pretty different.


    It doesn't matter if your dog just died or you had a bad day at work - that does not justify criminal behavior. It's not that anyone who bullies / threatens other people are 'below my threshold' for concern; they've mad a choice that very seriously impact the life of someone else, whatever their reasons, and there are consequences for doing that. The only reason they do not currently have to face those consequences is their anonymity & the current apathy of law enforcement.

    I don't agree that the consequences should be, "Your life is now totally ruined," but:

    a) That's for a different discussion.

    b) That's the consequence that we've currently settled on for criminal behavior, as a society. Part of participation in society is dealing with the consequences you've collectively helped to create.

    With Love and Courage
    Kristmas Kthulhu
  • BotznoyBotznoy Registered User regular
    Its also volume if abuse and the ease of access to him. This developers job isnt to receive and ignore abuse. Thats fallacious to believe so. As well as using the idea that the volume and vitriol of comments are equal to what the average worker even those at a fast food restaurants is additionally wrong to a huge degree.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    In absolutely no way does making a game, irrespective of the quality of it, justify any kind of abuse at someone for it. Nintendo don't care about the similarities in some art to their game and if they don't, then why does it matter? IMO the game is dreadful and I have no idea how it got so popular, but the mobile space is an incredibly weird animal as it is now and frankly there are many worse games than Flappy Bird. It's a fairly reasonable game for a mobile title when you consider it doesn't pester you for IAP, is genuinely "free", is entirely skill based and resets itself almost instantly after you die. The gameplay IMO is basic and dreadful, but the actual game is in there and isn't half as bad as some of the exploitive free to play shit I've seen.

    Even so, I would never abuse the guy personally and if he's making $50k a day off it then good for him. He has every right to do so if people are downloading and enjoying his game. Most importantly, he has every right to without the kind of horrible things people have been saying to him about the game. He's been called a thief, that he's plagiarized other peoples game ideas (something about a bird flying between cactuses IIRC) and all kinds of much more horrible shit. I don't blame him for going "I don't want this anymore" and it's not like he hasn't already made enough bank with what the game has been earning to basically do that. If he doesn't want to suffer any more abuse that's absolutely his perogative and it's not his fault for saying "I don't want any more of this shit" at all. None. It's the people who drove him into that decision that have that fault on them and it's not right. There is a fine line between criticism and being a total asshole to actual people, one that should always be remembered whenever we criticise or talk about games.

    Sadly something that is being forgotten.

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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular

    But it doesn't matter because they are below your threshold for 'what matters' so they are just horrible scum who should be thrown in jail and have their life ruined. That's cool.

    I know you're being flippant, but the important distinguishing feature here is that Nguyen didn't threaten to kill anybody, or attack them personally and vilely. I absolutely judge the people who are doing that, though nobody (if somebody has, I don't really give a shit, it's just derailing minutiae) is realistically suggesting they be jailed.

    You can deal with certain kinds of abuse that others can't. That's a good, valuable skill, and I'd hope you'd use it to fight for those who don't have it. You seem to agree that people being shitty to each other is a bad thing, so why shouldn't something be done to minimize it, even if it isn't something that fucks you up the way it does some others?

  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.

    JediabiwanApothe0sis
  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    "I see everything twice!"


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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"

    ElvenshaeJediabiwan
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'

    The next time you go to a restaurant, pick up your cutlery and tell your table server that you're going to cut their throat. When the police come, you'll find out that - in fact - you already live in a world that doesn't tolerate threats, even if you do it to someone trying to do their job & getting paid.
    Being paid $50K/day to not use twitter is not a bad deal, and I really don't get the arguments that it is. I'm not going to compare that to any actually bad things, because it's literally one of the best jobs in the entire world.

    He was paid for his game, not paid for dealing with people being retarded shitheads.

    Personally, I'd consider 50 grand to be an absolutely terrible 'deal' as compensation for being permanently excluded from the newest layer of human interaction - human interaction being the core of why we even have things like an economy / money in the first place, and why things are even worthwhile to do.

    Twitter is not human interaction.

  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    Several of the arguments in this thread boil down to "he should have expected this outcome because other people get shat on too." Or my personal favorite slice of awful, "he's not really being abused because twitter can be ignored." Victim blaming often involves trivializing the abuse in question.

    yossarian_lives on
    "I see everything twice!"


    CambiataLilnoobsStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRoyceSraphim
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"

    Exactly. The level of overreacting stupidity in this thread was making my head hurt.

    Bubby on
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    Several of the arguments in this thread boil down to "he should have expected this outcome because other people get shat on too." Or my personal favorite slice of awful, "he's not really being abused because twitter can be ignored." Victim blaming often involves trivializing the abuse in question.

    Jesus christ, always with the extemes. No one is trivializing the coward shitheads who post threats on Twitter. We're just saying that everyone has to deal with shitty people, and until this beautiful world of cybercops exists, all you can do is ignore it. What is physically stopping this guy from ignoring Twitter?

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Bubby wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    I would rather live in a world where I have to tolerate the occasional jerk being mean to me than live in one where I can be arrested for hurting somebody's feelings.
    p.s. democracy is dumb

    And yet, so much better than the alternatives. That is, unless you get to be a part of said 'small elite.'

    The next time you go to a restaurant, pick up your cutlery and tell your table server that you're going to cut their throat. When the police come, you'll find out that - in fact - you already live in a world that doesn't tolerate threats, even if you do it to someone trying to do their job & getting paid.
    Being paid $50K/day to not use twitter is not a bad deal, and I really don't get the arguments that it is. I'm not going to compare that to any actually bad things, because it's literally one of the best jobs in the entire world.

    He was paid for his game, not paid for dealing with people being retarded shitheads.

    Personally, I'd consider 50 grand to be an absolutely terrible 'deal' as compensation for being permanently excluded from the newest layer of human interaction - human interaction being the core of why we even have things like an economy / money in the first place, and why things are even worthwhile to do.

    Twitter is not human interaction.

    I'm pretty sure communication falls under human interaction.

    Zython on
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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    Several of the arguments in this thread boil down to "he should have expected this outcome because other people get shat on too." Or my personal favorite slice of awful, "he's not really being abused because twitter can be ignored." Victim blaming often involves trivializing the abuse in question.

    Jesus christ, always with the extemes. No one is trivializing the coward shitheads who post threats on Twitter. We're just saying that everyone has to deal with shitty people, and until this beautiful world of cybercops exists, all you can do is ignore it. What is physically stopping this guy from ignoring Twitter?

    Well, unless people find out his phone number. Or address.

    Which has never ever happened in the history of the internet ever. Obviously internet harassing stays at just internet harassing and has never crossed into the realm of real life.

    And it's not like gamers have ever gone way overboard about something they don't like before. And journalists have never crossed the line when it comes to respecting privacy, even for trivial stories.

    Yeah, all this guy had to do was ignore Twitter and everything would be a-ok and there's absolutely no chance that it'd every cross over into his every day life.

    No I don't.
    CambiataAegeriAvalonGuardshoeboxjeddyBloodsheedRozStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuBloodySlothTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander ZoomSpaffyRagnar Dragonfyre
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Bubby wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    Several of the arguments in this thread boil down to "he should have expected this outcome because other people get shat on too." Or my personal favorite slice of awful, "he's not really being abused because twitter can be ignored." Victim blaming often involves trivializing the abuse in question.

    Jesus christ, always with the extemes. No one is trivializing the coward shitheads who post threats on Twitter. We're just saying that everyone has to deal with shitty people, and until this beautiful world of cybercops exists, all you can do is ignore it. What is physically stopping this guy from ignoring Twitter?

    Ignoring his twitter would have been a temporary solution. Best case scenario he would have eventually had to start using it again in order to interact with the actual fans of the game so that he could continually improve it, just like every other indie developer out there. Worst case scenario, the shitheels that are harassing him just find new and creative ways to continue doing so. He chose to ignore them in another, more permanent way, by choosing not to play at all. He took his ball and went home. My confusion comes from why some people are so offended by him doing this. "Oh he was stupid for walking away from all that money," is what a lot of people seem to keep coming to, but who cares, it's his money and his life let him be free to do with it what he will. I'm sure he was well aware of what he was giving up and to him it was worth it. How is it our place to try and tell him it wasn't?

    LostNinja on
    CambiataPreciousBodilyFluidsAvalonGuardThe SauceKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander Zoom
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    This was pretty much my understanding if the term, essentially "It's your own fault you were a victim of Y because of Z unrelated thing about YOU", and I haven't seen any of that.

  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    This was pretty much my understanding if the term, essentially "It's your own fault you were a victim of Y because of Z unrelated thing about YOU", and I haven't seen any of that.
    The fact of the matter is, he went out and tried to sell something. He was making money. He put his face on it. I can literally pick anyone on the internet who has done this and you can find all kinds of bad things people have said about them and to them.
    Victim blaming is usually one facet of something much larger, which is a culture of abuse. Video gaming culture has that shit in spades. When it's considered normal for developers to receive sustained abuse on social media, and other avenues, you know you have a problem. Questioning the actions of a victim and trivializing their pain is a pretty big part of that problem. People want to accuse me and others of overreacting when there's a serious problem affecting an industry that I care about.

    "I see everything twice!"


    PreciousBodilyFluidsOneAngryPossumThe SauceStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRagnar Dragonfyre
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Kristmas KthulhuTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander ZoomRagnar Dragonfyre
  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    I just want to kind of make a short comment here...

    A lot of people in this thread are quick to look at the money as if it's some magical problem solver. The general census being that "50k a day means putting up with shit."

    Ok, it's a fair enough argument from people who don't have money like that. I understand. However, the old saying "money isn't everything" rings true here, and a vast majority of people (both here and in online communities) seem to love going back to the money.

    Money has different value for different people, and when it comes to game design for indie devs, some of us just like making games. It's not about marketing strategies and getting the blind sale to as many people as possible. Sometimes... some people just enjoy their chosen craft/hobby and fame can be horrible, especially with social media.

    So, if you want to say that he is 'crying himself to sleep with his money' just remember one thing:

    You're missing the fucking point.

    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
    yossarian_livesJusticeforPlutoaerynkellyPreciousBodilyFluidsBloodsheedStormwatcherKristmas KthulhuThe ListenerTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander Zoom
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just anonymous communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like. Some people might label that human but I sure don't. Twitter is the worst and laziest form of this because it's tantamount to fleeting thoughts being put out for anyone to read.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Bubby on
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Does that make me any less a person? A being with thought and emotion, aspirations and doubts?

    When you read the news about despondent peoples in the world, do you shrug them off because they are faceless and unknown?

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    PreciousBodilyFluidsBloodsheedKristmas KthulhuTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander Zoom
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Going out of your way to make that distinction reeks of looking for an excuse to be an asshole on the internet. "It's not actual human interaction, so it's okay to be an abusive pile of shit."

    LostNinjaOneAngryPossumyossarian_livesPreciousBodilyFluidsBloodsheedThe SauceJediabiwanTurkeyRoyceSraphimCommander Zoom
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Is 'victim blaming' code for something? Because I understand it in the context of say, rape discussions. But I've never once heard it used when someone questions a reaction to inline name calling.

    I mean is it okay to scream death threats on twitter? Obviously not and I don't think anyone has said it is. Does that make it any less stupid to walk away from millions of dollars in revenue instead of starting up an official twitter account for the game, hiring an intern or two, and going dark on your personal account for a few weeks?

    No. No it does not. Amazingly enough, it's possible to be both an innocent victim AND overreact stupidly to abuse. I don't think anyone's been blaming the guy for being a victim at all, just saying they think he handled it poorly.
    This might surprise you but victim blaming doesn't just apply to cases of rape.

    people aren't victim blaming here. at least, not in this thread.

    nobody is saying "oh it's your fault that you are getting harassed"

    people are just saying that

    "hey, yeah, it sucks that you're being harassed and we should do something about it. but while we're doing something about it, maybe you should just take a break from the social media until this all dies down, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater?"
    Several of the arguments in this thread boil down to "he should have expected this outcome because other people get shat on too." Or my personal favorite slice of awful, "he's not really being abused because twitter can be ignored." Victim blaming often involves trivializing the abuse in question.

    Jesus christ, always with the extemes. No one is trivializing the coward shitheads who post threats on Twitter. We're just saying that everyone has to deal with shitty people, and until this beautiful world of cybercops exists, all you can do is ignore it. What is physically stopping this guy from ignoring Twitter?

    Well, unless people find out his phone number. Or address.

    Which has never ever happened in the history of the internet ever. Obviously internet harassing stays at just internet harassing and has never crossed into the realm of real life.

    And it's not like gamers have ever gone way overboard about something they don't like before. And journalists have never crossed the line when it comes to respecting privacy, even for trivial stories.

    Yeah, all this guy had to do was ignore Twitter and everything would be a-ok and there's absolutely no chance that it'd every cross over into his every day life.

    What is with this righteous indignation? I was talking about dealing with Twitter trolls, not how to deal with escalating internet harassment. Obviously if it gets to that point, the cops should be involved, just like they should be if death threats are sent on Twitter.

    Elvenshae
  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    And the reason that I, for example, have little sympathy for him is because I'm sure, given the choice, literally billions of people would trade places with him in a heartbeat. I have a job, and I'd love to get paid to do whatever I want under the condition my social media page would be filled with people telling me to kill myself.

    If you wish you could trade places with someone living in Vietnam who had a sudden windfall, you are an incredible fool.

    In all seriousness, its quite possible he's going to be targeted by organized criminals now that his name and the amount of money his app is making is all over the internet. This, I think, is the most compelling explanation for why he took the game down.

    Space.
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Does that make me any less a person? A being with thought and emotion, aspirations and doubts?

    When you read the news about despondent peoples in the world, do you shrug them off because they are faceless and unknown?

    I'm just saying that the difference between this and actually talking to someone is so huge that distinctions should be made. The label doesn't really matter.

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Does that make me any less a person? A being with thought and emotion, aspirations and doubts?

    When you read the news about despondent peoples in the world, do you shrug them off because they are faceless and unknown?

    I'm just saying that the difference between this and actually talking to someone is so huge that distinctions should be made. The label doesn't really matter.

    That would be the ideal situation but the last couple of decades of people on the internet have shown that people react to internet interaction in the same way personal or telephone or written-letter reactions play out.

    This isn't something in question. This is what is going on. Your questioning it doesn't make it go away or any less valid a problem. People are hurting others in this medium.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Kristmas KthulhuTurkeyCommander ZoomRagnar Dragonfyre
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just anonymous communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like. Some people might label that human but I sure don't. Twitter is the worst and laziest form of this because it's tantamount to fleeting thoughts being put out for anyone to read.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Anonymous conversation still requires humans, and that's the issue here. Real people, with random handles cobbled from leetspeak and meme humor are going after Nguyen, and many others. Not robots incapable of understanding. People. No matter how anonymous you make it, someone is still making e conscious decision to be an asshat.

    No, Twitter is not some new revolution in the way our society communicates. It will never be "as valuable a source of interaction as having a conversation". That doesn't preclude people from using manners.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    Commander ZoomRagnar Dragonfyre
  • BubbyBubby Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just anonymous communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like. Some people might label that human but I sure don't. Twitter is the worst and laziest form of this because it's tantamount to fleeting thoughts being put out for anyone to read.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Anonymous conversation still requires humans, and that's the issue here. Real people, with random handles cobbled from leetspeak and meme humor are going after Nguyen, and many others. Not robots incapable of understanding. People. No matter how anonymous you make it, someone is still making e conscious decision to be an asshat.

    No, Twitter is not some new revolution in the way our society communicates. It will never be "as valuable a source of interaction as having a conversation". That doesn't preclude people from using manners.

    What's the solution? We can either burn it all down (which I'm in favor of) or institute cyberpolice stuff which is not only a slippery slope but will promote the idea of a thought police, given the way technology is going and the public perception around Twitter. I don't even know how it would be possible to have the manpower to enforce against every angry voice on the net.

    Bubby on
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Botznoy wrote: »
    This developers job isnt to receive and ignore abuse.

    As depressing as it is to say this I kind of disagree.

    In the current state of game culture and the atmosphere of the internet being a developer or figurehead for a studio absolutely involves receiving and ignoring abuse. It's certainly not what people got into the job for and it's not acceptable that it's a part of the culture surrounding games but it's still a fact of the job as it stands.

    Jediabiwan
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just anonymous communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like. Some people might label that human but I sure don't. Twitter is the worst and laziest form of this because it's tantamount to fleeting thoughts being put out for anyone to read.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Anonymous conversation still requires humans, and that's the issue here. Real people, with random handles cobbled from leetspeak and meme humor are going after Nguyen, and many others. Not robots incapable of understanding. People. No matter how anonymous you make it, someone is still making e conscious decision to be an asshat.

    No, Twitter is not some new revolution in the way our society communicates. It will never be "as valuable a source of interaction as having a conversation". That doesn't preclude people from using manners.

    What's the solution? We can either burn it all down (which I'm in favor of) or institute cyberpolice stuff which is not only a slippery slope but will promote the idea of a thought police, given the way technology is going and the public perception around Twitter. I don't even know how it would be possible to have the manpower to enforce against every angry voice on the net.

    You're forgetting the option of engaging our peers to curb this shitty behavior. It allows things to not be burned down and avoids law enforcement privacy concerns.

    I know you and others have said that it's impossible or would take too much time, but that's what this thread is about.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Bubby wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bubby wrote: »
    Twitter is not human interaction.

    The written word isn't human interaction? What are we all even doing here then?

    Human interaction is actually talking to someone, this is just anonymous communication. There's barely anything human about it, I don't know who you are or what you look like. Some people might label that human but I sure don't. Twitter is the worst and laziest form of this because it's tantamount to fleeting thoughts being put out for anyone to read.

    The fact that people are being raised thinking Twitter is as valuable a source of interaction as sitting down in person and having a conversation is mindblowing.

    Anonymous conversation still requires humans, and that's the issue here. Real people, with random handles cobbled from leetspeak and meme humor are going after Nguyen, and many others. Not robots incapable of understanding. People. No matter how anonymous you make it, someone is still making e conscious decision to be an asshat.

    No, Twitter is not some new revolution in the way our society communicates. It will never be "as valuable a source of interaction as having a conversation". That doesn't preclude people from using manners.

    What's the solution? We can either burn it all down (which I'm in favor of) or institute cyberpolice stuff which is not only a slippery slope but will promote the idea of a thought police, given the way technology is going and the public perception around Twitter. I don't even know how it would be possible to have the manpower to enforce against every angry voice on the net.

    We're looking for a solution that opens dialogue and understanding, not just punishing people for possibly out of context situations.

    Dialogue and understanding. Not some cyber justice who metes out instantaneous and blind punishment based on the offense only, without any context. I feel like you're missing the idea that there is an area between anarchy and police state.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    LostNinjaCommander Zoom
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Botznoy wrote: »
    This developers job isnt to receive and ignore abuse.

    As depressing as it is to say this I kind of disagree.

    In the current state of game culture and the atmosphere of the internet being a developer or figurehead for a studio absolutely involves receiving and ignoring abuse. It's certainly not what people got into the job for and it's not acceptable that it's a part of the culture surrounding games but it's still a fact of the job as it stands.

    It can be agreed that abusive behavior towards anyone is not acceptable, am I correct?

    That's what we are getting at here.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    PreciousBodilyFluids
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Yeah of course.

    Just saying 'taking abuse is not part of a developers job' isn't really true. Because it's part of pretty much any developer who does anything but live a hermit like existence.

    Jediabiwan
  • AvalonGuardAvalonGuard And that's why they call me Drilltooth! Registered User regular
    Yeah of course.

    Just saying 'taking abuse is not part of a developers job' isn't really true. Because it's part of pretty much any developer who does anything but live a hermit like existence.

    There's a clear difference between creative criticism (your game isn't good, here's why) and verbal abuse (you're game isn't good, kill yourself). One is absolutely acceptable in a creative field. One is most definitely not.

    YsR6QkX.jpg
    PreciousBodilyFluidsRagnar Dragonfyre
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