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Dealing With Terrorist States (Iran Hostage Thread)
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And they would have been killed. Game fucking over.
US forces make stupid decisions all the time, and I doubt this would have been any different if there had been US Marines as opposed to Royal Marines.
More grandstanding on Fox News, I'm sure, with pretty computer animations of bombs and missiles and jets going off with COUNTDOWN TO WAR appearing somewhere in there.
The only force I see giving the raspberry would conceivably be the French Foreign Legion.
EDIT: I have this crazy thing where I believe unless you've been a POW or a hostage, you probably shouldn't be commenting on how to act in this situation.
Don't get me started on that group of psychopaths.
Also one of the finest military forces in the world. Is it because they're psychopaths that they're so elite, or does being elite make them psychopaths?
It's because their recuiting policy encourages psychopaths to sign up. They take in pretty much anyone who got drummed out of other military organizations for whatever reason, no questions asked.
If firing on anything that moves in the desert (friend or foe) makes you elite, then I guess you can't get any better than these guys.
How did we go from Iran hostage crisis to comparing the crazies over there to Christian evangelicals? Are you serious?
I don't personally know a single Christian that thinks we should support Israel because we'll come closer to bringing about Armageddon. That's just stupid. I DO know a lot that believe that we should support Israel because they are God's chosen people, and that in the Bible, it says God will "bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee". Not that hard.
Also, remember that modern-day Christians for the most part believe in the Rapture of the church. In other words, we won't be here. We're not actively fomenting wars to bring it about, as nothing WE can do can change God's timetable (hmm... he's the only one that can have one, it would seem).
Sure, there are some Christians I see on TV that have some pretty nutty ideas, but none that I have seen even comes CLOSE to rising to the level of these Muslim fanatics. So be very careful when bandying about this comparisons, it doesn't help your argument.
Sarge out.
Actually, the majority of my research comes from a friend who was an engineer in GW1, and almost died because they decided to fire on their HMMWV column.
Yes, the Foreign Legion is the only army that has trouble with Friendly Fire. Way to take once incident and base a flimsy belief system off it.
Nope, but it's a starting point. I go to great lengths to find out about things I hate.
What do you mean its a starting point? The Marines killed like 20 of their own guys in GW1 when they got trigger happy and started firing on their own support column. The Patriot Missile system took out a British Tornado Fighter Bomber recently, and we've also bombed Canadians in Afghanistan, and we had an A-10 take out a British Scimitar during the invasion.
What a fucking maroon. Obviously your "great lengths" really means "ancedotal bullshit from a second hand source occuring over ten years ago."
Don't worry. The rest of the world's more scared of you than you are of it.
You meen the feeling that you're being fed scare stories all day about the commies coming to get you so that you'll accept defense spending. That's pretty mush all the cold war turned out to be and they actually had nukes that could reach you.
I haven't told you everything I know about the French Foreign Legion, nor have I brought in anything about Friendly Fire in general other than the aforementioned incident.
In truth, I have a lot of family and friends that either are in, or have been in the armed forces for the US, and there is a lot that I hate about some of the branches. FFL popped up on the radar, so I figured I'd chime in with a one liner.
I can't simply will you the knowledge, and make you understand my position.
You obviously idolize the FFL into something I believe it is not. I think you should actually obtain more information on them, not just from the French Government either. Think first hand accounts.
From the way you treat the situation, I can safely categorize you under "People I can do without." Therefore I am not really going to bother to expend the effort to explain things further.
I get the feeling that it's almost the reverse. During the cold war we had a lot of stories that tried to bolster morale, at least a little, basically that we would survive the cold night to see the breaking dawn, that whole BS. With this war it almost seems that the propaganda engine is geared towards demoralizing us, basically that we can never win, we should get out while we still can, so on and so forth. It doesn't help when someone f's up so monumentally over there that it makes the stuff that may not have been true, seem dead on.
Uh, let's see.
Wikipedia. Cervens.net. The books "Life in the French Foreign Legion" and "Legionaire". Various other books. Actually sitting down and talking to Legionaires. I'm not sure what the fuck you think I'm "idolizing" here. Everyone I've talked to says the Legion is pretty much a shithole as far as living conditions and how you're treated go (at least until you make NCO), but they also acknowledge that they know how to fucking fight.
I'm not sure you even have an argument, outside of "I just don't really like them". Either bring some actual meat to this table or get the fuck out. No one is saying the Legion is filled with nice people, but to call them a bunch of psychopaths with rifles is even more retarded.
It was the exact same way in the Cold War. The propaganda of the Cold War was basically about scaring the shit out of people. That was the whole point of the duck and cover stuff.
I was thinking McCarthy's I am the only one you can trust schtick.
Unfortunately, Iran's move will increase its standing in the Arab world, because they are going to prove that they can stand up to the UK and the USA and not get bombed.
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second.
Iran already has a high standing with all of the Shia Arab nations and groups. The Sunni Arab nations and groups are terrified of it and what "Persian dominance" means for them.
If Islam is so much worse about the whole deception in foreign policy thing, then what's Israel's excuse?
Probably that duplicity is an essential part of any viable nation's foreign policy? If we had to list every time every nation was ever dishonest in its dealings with other nations; well, it would be a very long forum post indeed.
Interesting side note: I read an article about the French Foreign Legion a year or so ago in The Economist; they seemed to imply that most of the FFL's recruits these days are ex-Soviet bloc area professional soldiers that want to work for a professional army.
Shouldn't all countries have the right to do that, in general? Obviously we want these people back as soon as possible, but demanding that Iran do as they are told was never gong to help the situation.
Given that there is no proper agreement over the exact line of the boundary, we should be letting ships further in to Iraqi waters before we stop them and keep a demilitarised zone along the area of dispute that the UK and Iran can watch over. It wouldn't have to be large, just enough to take in where the UK draws the border and where Iran does.
I tried to find information on the hostages Hezbollah took triggering the war in Lebanon and couldn't. I never did hear of the hostages being released however. What I did hear, though, was Israel submitting to the UN Resolutions and Lebanon NOT submitting to the UN Resolutions. But no one talks about that at all anymore.
I don't think Britain will forget the soldiers, but the world will. Hopefully the soldiers will be released before that happens.
This is actually true, and not totally unexpected. It may be rough and hellish, but you know what? The pay is pretty good and you're going to get fed and taken care of. A lot of the spit and polish of the Legion nowadays can be attributed to the Germans who joined in the wake of WWII and helped mold the Legion.
Iran: "No, the border's not there, back a bit, no, back a bit more, keep going, keep going..."
It's a pretty safe bet. While Britain + allies could mess Iran up, it would cost far more than we're willing to spend and possibly severely impair our armed forces in the long run, we just can't afford to fight 3 seperate conflicts.
The important thing is getting to the table. If Britain and Iran start serious talks then hopefully that can pave the way to gradually transitioning into what's realy at the heart of our problems.
For all we know, there is a sound tactical reason for not letting ships get further into Iraqi waters before stopping them. For example, letting ships further in might make it harder to prevent them from reaching a port before stopping them. Or it might allow the ships within range of covering fire from the shore.
In addition, the only border the UK (or anyone, for that matter) has to respect is the one that sets the international standard for where international waters end. By way of analogy: Argentina claims a portion of Antarctica as part of its sovereign territory. However, no other nation in the world recognizes Argentina's claim. Just because Iran says, "The border is here," does not obligate the rest of the world to listen.
It could, if the UK does to Iran what Israel did to Lebanon.
I'm not sure if I agree that that's the reason, but even so, isn't that an outcome that people in this thread are considering? That this ends in a war?
I suppose if it does, those soldiers are well and truly screwed.
At any rate, I have no love lost for Iran. I just don't think this'll end well for anyone.
But I was actually referring to Lebanon, there.
Exactly. I just don't see the British acting anywhere near as immensely irresponsibly in this situation as Israel did in regards to Lebanon. I don't think Tony Blair has any interest whatsoever in turning Iran into the UK's Iraq, only much worse, because the Iranians will actually fight back against the initial invasion.
Britain saying the border is where they are saying equally doesn't obligate Iran to agree. The border needs to be agreed between Iran and Iraq. There are plenty of unsolved problems in the region without exacerbating those that don't affect us.