They say China is getting massively sick of propping up NK, are very unhappy with the spillover (NK refugees) and political will to continue this situation is very weak. And if the China aid stops, that's it for NK.
And if NK falls apart, it's going to be the border with China that's going to be swarming with refugees too. It's a situation with literally no good resolution, whether it continues or falls apart.
When I see the DMZ again, it will be in the winter or spring. Summers are hotter and more humid than Mississippi's, and winters are colder and drier than that of effing Skyrim (aka Germany.) Each season gives the DMZ a completely new look.
They say China is getting massively sick of propping up NK, are very unhappy with the spillover (NK refugees) and political will to continue this situation is very weak. And if the China aid stops, that's it for NK.
And if NK falls apart, it's going to be the border with China that's going to be swarming with refugees too. It's a situation with literally no good resolution, whether it continues or falls apart.
If population density is any reflection of infrastructure, you'd see a lot more people fleeing to China than SK...and that is before taking into account the DMZ or respective views of the two nations among North Koreans.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
this is a cool thread, cantido. thanks!
0
Options
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
Also once again the forums have provided me a news story before the actual news. I read in this thread about the whole North Korean drug thing, then that afternoon or the next morning there was a story on NPR about it.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
I don't think it's as simple as that
Sure the military leadership yeah that's true, but the rank and file still venerate him and have this cult of personality about him, so its not like the generals could just replace him
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
I don't think it's as simple as that
Sure the military leadership yeah that's true, but the rank and file still venerate him and have this cult of personality about him, so its not like the generals could just replace him
I've read somewhere that the average North Korean believes the Kims are doing their best to fix North Korea's many problems but underlings, officials, and bureaucrats, either through incompetence or corruption, are sabotaging the Kims' efforts. When things got really bad in the country, Kim Jong il conveniently left on long tours of inspection, making sure North Korea's borders were secure against foreign invasion. Bureaucrats took the blame for the Arduous March.
right so if the military leadership started trying to make power plays that were too aggressive, kim would have a massive target to paint on whoever opposed him as "this guy is responsible for all your misery"
The guy in charge of agriculture in the mid 90s was Seo Gwan Hee. He got the blame and was executed after Kim "got back" from his thorough inspection tour.
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
There's been some pretty believable speculation about all the resent sabre-rattling with the missile testing wasn't intended for the rest of the world, but for Kim to show his generals that he did in fact have balls to keep him safely on the throne.
There's an old Soviet joke I heard the other day that's pretty much spot-on for Best Korea.
A reporter gets behind the Iron Curtain and has a rare chance to interview a Soviet citizen.
Reporter: "How is the food situation? Do people starve?"
Citizen: "I can't complain."
R: "What about people being dragged out of their homes in the night and shipped to Siberia?"
C: "I can't complain."
R: "What about jobs? All the factories have been shut down."
C: "I can't complain."
R: "What's the worst about living here?"
C: "I can't complain."
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
Every defector - every single one - has independently given testimony about the pervasive cult of personality surrounding the Kims, the state of the rank & file military (the average soldier is about as destitute as the average civilian) and the dangers of ever becoming more than just a silhouette in the dark. Kim Sul Song, according to American & South Korean intelligence, runs an extremely brutal espionage & internal surveillance organization that purges threats to the dynasty and keeps people in check through fear.
There's an old Soviet joke I heard the other day that's pretty much spot-on for Best Korea.
Also quite good are the jokes Reagan claimed to have overheard when visiting the USSR in talks with Gorbachev. However you feel about the man, he could tell a joke.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
Without the Kims, North Korea would be a headless, blundering nightmarescape complete with peasant riots and soldiers abandoning their posts. Half the country would starve to death before order could be restored by foreign powers.
Please note: I'm basing all of this on the Kamp Krusty episode of The Simpsons.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
NK will be free over the Kims dead bodies.
I look at it this way: who am I to judge the 3 year old daughter of Kim Jong Un, or any future yet-to-be-born children of his? Until they grow-up and decide what path to walk, saying that the country will be free 'over their dead bodies' is ludicrous, at least to me and presumably anyone else who believes that responsibility for criminal behavior is not something you inherit from your parents or grandparents.
We can wait, and people will die and suffer, and perhaps Jong Un will prove to be a better man (he's only a year older or younger than most posters here, born in either 1983 or 84; he hasn't yet had much of a chance to choose what kind of person he wishes to be), or if not, perhaps his daughter will prove to be a better woman (or maybe not, and it will be one of the generations later on that marks the expiry date for the dynasty). Or we can engage in some more military adventurism, far more people will die and suffer, nobody will have a chance to become better people, money will be flushed down the toilet and we could risk sparking a much larger conflict throughout Southeast Asia & Eurasia. At best, North Korea will become a puppet state of South Korea.
This is a very well written thread Cantido. Thank you for sharing. I watched the first season of Vice on HBO. I would recommend to everyone in the thread that they watch the season finale of that show if possible. It should be readily available on HBOGo and shows two of the main components for a society like this. The "pre-production" of showing off its utopian society, the enforcement of showing said produced/for show utopian life and the resulting cult of personality. The crew went over with Rodman as a camera crew for his visit. I enjoyed the look into the world. Incidentally the big border station that scared me the most was when Vice, in an earlier episode, showed the border between India and Pakistan. That is some crazy, scary, stuff right there.
There is also an MSNBC "Week in Pictures" that you still might be able to find that had some interesting pictures of daily life in NK. The picture that got me was a school kids book that showed a child crying as an "American" soldier killed his/her parents. This was in a kids book for school.
There was also a very well done documentary that was done when Kim Jong Il was still alive, I think. It is on Netflix. They piggy backed in with a crew of doctors doing eye transplants because there is an epidemic of cataracts in all ages of the population from malnutrition. After all of the surgeries done by a UN based team the ending of the documentary showed the "unwrapping" ceremony. The resulting hailing to the grand leader was quite the interesting scene.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
NK will be free over the Kims dead bodies.
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
If they were colonial subjects, then I guess the entire Russian Empire, not including the few dozen members of the European-influenced (and on occasion, European-filled) royal family, were colonial subjects.
There is also an MSNBC "Week in Pictures" that you still might be able to find that had some interesting pictures of daily life in NK. The picture that got me was a school kids book that showed a child crying as an "American" soldier killed his/her parents. This was in a kids book for school.
Depending on the context, it's hardly out the question that the image is an honest one: the Korean war saw both sides engaged in horrific acts of atrocity, including rounding-up intellectual proponents of either communism or capitalism (depending on whom was doing the executing) and shooting them. There's an uncomfortable seed of truth behind the propaganda, which is why the older Korean generations respected it (particularly when the Americans later lied about all involvement in atrocities that they saw with their own eyes).
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
And the Bolsheviks were quite fine to murder the last line of the Romanov family, kids and all, in cold blood for the sake of spite & revenge (because nothing says, "I fundamentally oppose acts of atrocity," like stabbing a 14 year old boy with hemophilia to death using a bayonet).
This is a very well written thread Cantido. Thank you for sharing. I watched the first season of Vice on HBO. I would recommend to everyone in the thread that they watch the season finale of that show if possible. It should be readily available on HBOGo and shows two of the main components for a society like this. The "pre-production" of showing off its utopian society, the enforcement of showing said produced/for show utopian life and the resulting cult of personality. The crew went over with Rodman as a camera crew for his visit. I enjoyed the look into the world. Incidentally the big border station that scared me the most was when Vice, in an earlier episode, showed the border between India and Pakistan. That is some crazy, scary, stuff right there.
There is also an MSNBC "Week in Pictures" that you still might be able to find that had some interesting pictures of daily life in NK. The picture that got me was a school kids book that showed a child crying as an "American" soldier killed his/her parents. This was in a kids book for school.
There was also a very well done documentary that was done when Kim Jong Il was still alive, I think. It is on Netflix. They piggy backed in with a crew of doctors doing eye transplants because there is an epidemic of cataracts in all ages of the population from malnutrition. After all of the surgeries done by a UN based team the ending of the documentary showed the "unwrapping" ceremony. The resulting hailing to the grand leader was quite the interesting scene.
Ehhhhhhh. Very, very few people have the balls to not do exactly what is expected when they shove a camera in your face with a political attache in the back of the room.
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
And the Bolsheviks were quite fine to murder the last line of the Romanov family, kids and all, in cold blood for the sake of spite & revenge (because nothing says, "I fundamentally oppose acts of atrocity," like stabbing a 14 year old boy with hemophilia to death using a bayonet).
Correct--though they were not a European-related monarchy, which is why I didn't list them.
Personally, I would cite the Soviet use of widespread famine as a political weapon, most infamously in Ukraine, as far more relevant--I don't really care about the Tsarevich's death in of itself (certainly no more than the killing of any child noncombatant on either side, no shortage of which occurred).
This is a very well written thread Cantido. Thank you for sharing. I watched the first season of Vice on HBO. I would recommend to everyone in the thread that they watch the season finale of that show if possible. It should be readily available on HBOGo and shows two of the main components for a society like this. The "pre-production" of showing off its utopian society, the enforcement of showing said produced/for show utopian life and the resulting cult of personality. The crew went over with Rodman as a camera crew for his visit. I enjoyed the look into the world. Incidentally the big border station that scared me the most was when Vice, in an earlier episode, showed the border between India and Pakistan. That is some crazy, scary, stuff right there.
There is also an MSNBC "Week in Pictures" that you still might be able to find that had some interesting pictures of daily life in NK. The picture that got me was a school kids book that showed a child crying as an "American" soldier killed his/her parents. This was in a kids book for school.
There was also a very well done documentary that was done when Kim Jong Il was still alive, I think. It is on Netflix. They piggy backed in with a crew of doctors doing eye transplants because there is an epidemic of cataracts in all ages of the population from malnutrition. After all of the surgeries done by a UN based team the ending of the documentary showed the "unwrapping" ceremony. The resulting hailing to the grand leader was quite the interesting scene.
Ehhhhhhh. Very, very few people have the balls to not do exactly what is expected when they shove a camera in your face with a political attache in the back of the room.
I saw that documentary, it really was good.
I also reccomend the one on the DMZ itself, as it brings up every atrocity the North committed by going over the border. They tried to assassinate the Southern President and killed his wife instead. There's also the axe murder. The north keeps the axe on display near the border.
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
And the Bolsheviks were quite fine to murder the last line of the Romanov family, kids and all, in cold blood for the sake of spite & revenge (because nothing says, "I fundamentally oppose acts of atrocity," like stabbing a 14 year old boy with hemophilia to death using a bayonet).
Correct--though they were not a European-related monarchy, which is why I didn't list them.
Personally, I would cite the Soviet use of widespread famine as a political weapon, most infamously in Ukraine, as far more relevant--I don't really care about the Tsarevich's death in of itself (certainly no more than the killing of any child noncombatant on either side, no shortage of which occurred).
That's completely reasonable - I just don't think there's much room for criticism on the side of the revolutionaries in Russia for the actions of the Tsar when they were happy to engage in exactly the same behavior with the shoe on the other foot.
EDIT: Also, to be honest, it really just pisses me off every time I'm reminded of that affair. 'Hey, this man is guilty of crimes against our people! So let's shoot him to death and, while we're at it, shoot his entire family and their servants to death because blood guilt! See, we're really the better people afterall!"
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
NK will be free over the Kims dead bodies.
I look at it this way: who am I to judge the 3 year old daughter of Kim Jong Un, or any future yet-to-be-born children of his? Until they grow-up and decide what path to walk, saying that the country will be free 'over their dead bodies' is ludicrous, at least to me and presumably anyone else who believes that responsibility for criminal behavior is not something you inherit from your parents or grandparents.
We can wait, and people will die and suffer, and perhaps Jong Un will prove to be a better man (he's only a year older or younger than most posters here, born in either 1983 or 84; he hasn't yet had much of a chance to choose what kind of person he wishes to be), or if not, perhaps his daughter will prove to be a better woman (or maybe not, and it will be one of the generations later on that marks the expiry date for the dynasty). Or we can engage in some more military adventurism, far more people will die and suffer, nobody will have a chance to become better people, money will be flushed down the toilet and we could risk sparking a much larger conflict throughout Southeast Asia & Eurasia. At best, North Korea will become a puppet state of South Korea.
The first option seems more appealing to me.
He's fucking about trying to build ski resorts while his people starve to death. We have all the indications we need he's the same man as his father was.
I'm not trying to say war is a good option, but if you're hoping Un turns out to be a closet good guy I'd say you've already been proved wrong.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
I'm not sure I buy that he ever had a meaningful choice. By all means bravo for doing the right thing but if you never had the means to hold on to power then giving it away doesn't have quite the same weight to it.
I think that comes under "he gave up power before it was taken from him". I'm talking about rulers with the sort of iron grip on power the Kims enjoy, they don't give it up without a fight.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
I'm not sure I buy that he ever had a meaningful choice. By all means bravo for doing the right thing but if you never had the means to hold on to power then giving it away doesn't have quite the same weight to it.
I think that comes under "he gave up power before it was taken from him". I'm talking about rulers with the sort of iron grip on power the Kims enjoy, they don't give it up without a fight.
If anything, if he was a "good guy" he would likely use his power to try and help the general populous through reformations and shit rather then give up power. Who gives up being (equivalent to) a living god.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
And the Bolsheviks were quite fine to murder the last line of the Romanov family, kids and all, in cold blood for the sake of spite & revenge (because nothing says, "I fundamentally oppose acts of atrocity," like stabbing a 14 year old boy with hemophilia to death using a bayonet).
Correct--though they were not a European-related monarchy, which is why I didn't list them.
Personally, I would cite the Soviet use of widespread famine as a political weapon, most infamously in Ukraine, as far more relevant--I don't really care about the Tsarevich's death in of itself (certainly no more than the killing of any child noncombatant on either side, no shortage of which occurred).
That's completely reasonable - I just don't think there's much room for criticism on the side of the revolutionaries in Russia for the actions of the Tsar when they were happy to engage in exactly the same behavior with the shoe on the other foot.
EDIT: Also, to be honest, it really just pisses me off every time I'm reminded of that affair. 'Hey, this man is guilty of crimes against our people! So let's shoot him to death and, while we're at it, shoot his entire family and their servants to death because blood guilt! See, we're really the better people afterall!"
Given how much criticism is leveled against revolutionaries, I don't see why we can't do the same against the old regime--and thankfully, we can! And be reminded that when it comes to starvation and mass arrests, the Kims (if we accept them as a monarchy) have some company in this area.
The Tsareivch was the son of an insanely rich autocrat who was swept away by history (well, history, and political forces less incompetent than his own). He's not entitled to more sympathy than any other child killed in the Civil War.
EDIT: He just happens to get a thousand times more of it than, say, children who were killed by Cossack military men for the crime of being Reds or from Central Asia, on the approval of God (that is, the Orthodox Church) and the Tsar. That pisses me off, and good riddance to them. I am very glad that the historiography is starting to actually correct this attitude.
I have no god damn idea what you do about something like North Korea. Every possible thing you can do is a bad option for millions of innocent people. But I am going to celebrate and then donate a shit-ton of money to reconstruction aid if we ever manage to open it up and start trying to rebuild it.
I doubt there is anything to be done, aside from waiting for the dynasty to fall apart (which will happen sooner or later, as with all dynasties). Negotiations with the Kim family have always had mixed results, and no part of that mix was beneficial to the average North Korean. There's nothing the Kims want for, and no reason for them to change - I just hope that the next generation will be so far removed from the Cold War & Korean War that they develop a conscience for what is happening in their country and actually try do what's right.
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
Basically every Brazilian president since the mid-1970s through Fernando Henrique.
waitwaitwait
are you trying to say that the power base of the Brazilian military government didn't erode?
Cause if everyone had still been peachy with the rampant censorship, repression, and targeted disappearances I doubt opening would have ever occurred.
I'm saying that the Brazilian military government could very easily have become significantly more oppressive than they were in the face of growing opposition. They were not at all nice guys, but they also weren't, like, the Shah or Idi Amin or Chuck Taylor (edit: or even fuckin' Robespierre, though he's probably closest) - roughly 400 people died, were tortured, or were disappeared during the (modern) Brazilian military dictatorship. Geisel was not well-loved by the hardliners, and his (extremely tentative, initially) moves towards reform weren't really necessary; it would have been far easier for him, politically, to crack down harder. Instead he (and his successor) chose to let power revert.
Edit: It's important to remember that the power base of a dictatorship is, like, two dozen people, maybe a hundred tops, not the whole population.
I'm editing this as I remember more - I wrote a paper on the Brazilian democratization process in college several years ago and it's slowly coming back.
Posts
- John Stuart Mill
Did centuries worth of European royalty give a fuck about their citizens when they were in power?
is there any serious belief that the kim family is anything other than figureheads propped up by a military dictatorship? like, are there any actual calls that the kims could make that would be opposed by the military heads?
i have always gotten the impression that they were nothing more than ornamental royalty and that the western media obsession with them was always kind of a head-scratcher.
I don't think it's as simple as that
Sure the military leadership yeah that's true, but the rank and file still venerate him and have this cult of personality about him, so its not like the generals could just replace him
I've read somewhere that the average North Korean believes the Kims are doing their best to fix North Korea's many problems but underlings, officials, and bureaucrats, either through incompetence or corruption, are sabotaging the Kims' efforts. When things got really bad in the country, Kim Jong il conveniently left on long tours of inspection, making sure North Korea's borders were secure against foreign invasion. Bureaucrats took the blame for the Arduous March.
There's been some pretty believable speculation about all the resent sabre-rattling with the missile testing wasn't intended for the rest of the world, but for Kim to show his generals that he did in fact have balls to keep him safely on the throne.
A reporter gets behind the Iron Curtain and has a rare chance to interview a Soviet citizen.
Reporter: "How is the food situation? Do people starve?"
Citizen: "I can't complain."
R: "What about people being dragged out of their homes in the night and shipped to Siberia?"
C: "I can't complain."
R: "What about jobs? All the factories have been shut down."
C: "I can't complain."
R: "What's the worst about living here?"
C: "I can't complain."
Occasionally? Moreso towards the end really.
Also they did do a reasonable job at keeping everyone fed most of the time and keeping something of a working social order, which is more than can be said for the Kims.
Not including the British in India, the Belgians in the Congo, the Russian in Eurasia and the Germans in East Africa.
A few of these cases are comparable to, or actually worse, than the Kims (including millions suffering of famine).
Of course, the Kims also had a functioning country a few decades ago before everything went to hell. As functioning as its neighbor on the peninsula at the same time, anyway. And some of those monarchies existed a hundred years ago.
EDIT: East, not West Africa.
Every defector - every single one - has independently given testimony about the pervasive cult of personality surrounding the Kims, the state of the rank & file military (the average soldier is about as destitute as the average civilian) and the dangers of ever becoming more than just a silhouette in the dark. Kim Sul Song, according to American & South Korean intelligence, runs an extremely brutal espionage & internal surveillance organization that purges threats to the dynasty and keeps people in check through fear.
Also quite good are the jokes Reagan claimed to have overheard when visiting the USSR in talks with Gorbachev. However you feel about the man, he could tell a joke.
Nobody ever gave a fuck about colonial subjects
that's really not even in the same category
still terrible, but not what is being discussed
Point being, waiting for all powerful autocratic rulers and their descendants to evolve a conscience and some empathy for the people they're grinding into the dirt to keep themselves in the manner to which they've become accustomed, is a waiting game that can span centuries.
In fact I'm not sure any dictator or monarch has ever willingly given power to the people as much as their powerbase eventually erodes to the point where they either give up power or have it taken away.
NK will be free over the Kims dead bodies.
Without the Kims, North Korea would be a headless, blundering nightmarescape complete with peasant riots and soldiers abandoning their posts. Half the country would starve to death before order could be restored by foreign powers.
Please note: I'm basing all of this on the Kamp Krusty episode of The Simpsons.
I'd say:
Juan Carlos I of Spain qualifies.
I look at it this way: who am I to judge the 3 year old daughter of Kim Jong Un, or any future yet-to-be-born children of his? Until they grow-up and decide what path to walk, saying that the country will be free 'over their dead bodies' is ludicrous, at least to me and presumably anyone else who believes that responsibility for criminal behavior is not something you inherit from your parents or grandparents.
We can wait, and people will die and suffer, and perhaps Jong Un will prove to be a better man (he's only a year older or younger than most posters here, born in either 1983 or 84; he hasn't yet had much of a chance to choose what kind of person he wishes to be), or if not, perhaps his daughter will prove to be a better woman (or maybe not, and it will be one of the generations later on that marks the expiry date for the dynasty). Or we can engage in some more military adventurism, far more people will die and suffer, nobody will have a chance to become better people, money will be flushed down the toilet and we could risk sparking a much larger conflict throughout Southeast Asia & Eurasia. At best, North Korea will become a puppet state of South Korea.
The first option seems more appealing to me.
There is also an MSNBC "Week in Pictures" that you still might be able to find that had some interesting pictures of daily life in NK. The picture that got me was a school kids book that showed a child crying as an "American" soldier killed his/her parents. This was in a kids book for school.
There was also a very well done documentary that was done when Kim Jong Il was still alive, I think. It is on Netflix. They piggy backed in with a crew of doctors doing eye transplants because there is an epidemic of cataracts in all ages of the population from malnutrition. After all of the surgeries done by a UN based team the ending of the documentary showed the "unwrapping" ceremony. The resulting hailing to the grand leader was quite the interesting scene.
Basically every Brazilian president since the mid-1970s through Fernando Henrique.
waitwaitwait
are you trying to say that the power base of the Brazilian military government didn't erode?
Cause if everyone had still been peachy with the rampant censorship, repression, and targeted disappearances I doubt opening would have ever occurred.
Also, the Romanovs were quite fine with millions of Russians, small and greater, suffering and dying of famine. On multiple occasions over a few centuries.
If they were colonial subjects, then I guess the entire Russian Empire, not including the few dozen members of the European-influenced (and on occasion, European-filled) royal family, were colonial subjects.
Depending on the context, it's hardly out the question that the image is an honest one: the Korean war saw both sides engaged in horrific acts of atrocity, including rounding-up intellectual proponents of either communism or capitalism (depending on whom was doing the executing) and shooting them. There's an uncomfortable seed of truth behind the propaganda, which is why the older Korean generations respected it (particularly when the Americans later lied about all involvement in atrocities that they saw with their own eyes).
And the Bolsheviks were quite fine to murder the last line of the Romanov family, kids and all, in cold blood for the sake of spite & revenge (because nothing says, "I fundamentally oppose acts of atrocity," like stabbing a 14 year old boy with hemophilia to death using a bayonet).
Ehhhhhhh. Very, very few people have the balls to not do exactly what is expected when they shove a camera in your face with a political attache in the back of the room.
Correct--though they were not a European-related monarchy, which is why I didn't list them.
Personally, I would cite the Soviet use of widespread famine as a political weapon, most infamously in Ukraine, as far more relevant--I don't really care about the Tsarevich's death in of itself (certainly no more than the killing of any child noncombatant on either side, no shortage of which occurred).
I saw that documentary, it really was good.
I also reccomend the one on the DMZ itself, as it brings up every atrocity the North committed by going over the border. They tried to assassinate the Southern President and killed his wife instead. There's also the axe murder. The north keeps the axe on display near the border.
That's completely reasonable - I just don't think there's much room for criticism on the side of the revolutionaries in Russia for the actions of the Tsar when they were happy to engage in exactly the same behavior with the shoe on the other foot.
EDIT: Also, to be honest, it really just pisses me off every time I'm reminded of that affair. 'Hey, this man is guilty of crimes against our people! So let's shoot him to death and, while we're at it, shoot his entire family and their servants to death because blood guilt! See, we're really the better people afterall!"
He's fucking about trying to build ski resorts while his people starve to death. We have all the indications we need he's the same man as his father was.
I'm not trying to say war is a good option, but if you're hoping Un turns out to be a closet good guy I'd say you've already been proved wrong.
I'm not sure I buy that he ever had a meaningful choice. By all means bravo for doing the right thing but if you never had the means to hold on to power then giving it away doesn't have quite the same weight to it.
I think that comes under "he gave up power before it was taken from him". I'm talking about rulers with the sort of iron grip on power the Kims enjoy, they don't give it up without a fight.
If anything, if he was a "good guy" he would likely use his power to try and help the general populous through reformations and shit rather then give up power. Who gives up being (equivalent to) a living god.
Given how much criticism is leveled against revolutionaries, I don't see why we can't do the same against the old regime--and thankfully, we can! And be reminded that when it comes to starvation and mass arrests, the Kims (if we accept them as a monarchy) have some company in this area.
The Tsareivch was the son of an insanely rich autocrat who was swept away by history (well, history, and political forces less incompetent than his own). He's not entitled to more sympathy than any other child killed in the Civil War.
EDIT: He just happens to get a thousand times more of it than, say, children who were killed by Cossack military men for the crime of being Reds or from Central Asia, on the approval of God (that is, the Orthodox Church) and the Tsar. That pisses me off, and good riddance to them. I am very glad that the historiography is starting to actually correct this attitude.
I'm saying that the Brazilian military government could very easily have become significantly more oppressive than they were in the face of growing opposition. They were not at all nice guys, but they also weren't, like, the Shah or Idi Amin or Chuck Taylor (edit: or even fuckin' Robespierre, though he's probably closest) - roughly 400 people died, were tortured, or were disappeared during the (modern) Brazilian military dictatorship. Geisel was not well-loved by the hardliners, and his (extremely tentative, initially) moves towards reform weren't really necessary; it would have been far easier for him, politically, to crack down harder. Instead he (and his successor) chose to let power revert.
Edit: It's important to remember that the power base of a dictatorship is, like, two dozen people, maybe a hundred tops, not the whole population.
I'm editing this as I remember more - I wrote a paper on the Brazilian democratization process in college several years ago and it's slowly coming back.