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Shadowrun: Hong Kong Director's Cut Is Out Right Now

TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON_________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
edited February 2016 in Games and Technology
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=9MiMjQwd2VE

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Shadowrun Returns

What is Shadowrun Returns?
Shadowrun Returns is a turn based tactical combat RPG game set in the Shadowrun universe. (It is largely unrelated to Shadowrun Online, a different game, which is an MMO by the Jagged Alliance Online people. Shadowrun Online is set later in the Shadowrun universe and will pick up plotlines from Shadowrun Returns.) It's out on PC and is coming to tablets.

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Another Shitty Shadowrun Cash-in? Bleh
Not so fast! This game's made by Jordan Weisman and his team. Weisman is the guy behind Battletech, Crimson Skies, and other things (like... Shadowrun). Weisman was one of the original creators of Shadowrun and his game company, Harebrained Schemes, is made up of a bunch of people he's brought along with him from his FASA days (plus a bunch of other people). Marshall Parker and Sam Powell, the composers of the music for the SNES and Genesis Shadowrun games respectively, are collaborating on the music.

Okay, What's the Game Like?
I'm literally just going to copy and paste from the Kickstarter page:

TpJhi.jpg

Single player turn based RPG. None of this "let's try to be Counterstrike" stuff we got in the last Shadowrun game.
One of the many innovations in Data East’s Shadowrun Super Nintendo game was a unique conversation engine that opened up new avenues of conversation based upon information you learned through interactions with characters and objects. We intend on taking a similar path with a new twist or two.

Contextual Gameplay in Four Realities

Four realities overlap in the world of Shadowrun (the Physical, the Digital, the Mystic, and the Astral) and associated character classes such as the Street Samurai, Hacker, Combat Mage, and Shaman, each have the ability to view and interact with the world in ways the others can’t.

Here are some ways that selecting each character class allows you to see the map from a different perspective:
  • Street Samurai see a threat assessment overlay of the environment that notes enemy appraisals, options for cover, potential weapons, and statistics for drawn weapons.
  • Combat Mages see magical auras, granting them the ability to locate magical items, identify spells being prepared, and find the intersections of magic lay lines where they can recharge their power.
  • Hackers/Deckers see the digital control circuitry that allows them to manipulate the physical world via the digital one.
  • Shaman see the “true world” that lies in the astral plane, distinguishing the true nature of people, plants, creatures, and magical objects while buildings and other “dead” objects appear as mere shadows.

Missions (aka "Runs") in Shadowrun Returns can require interaction with all four realities simultaneously, requiring you to use information learned from each character’s perspective to coordinate their context-sensitive actions to get the job done. . . and survive.

That’s why we decided to make Shadowrun Returns a turn-based game—so we can offer you a wide range of context-based gameplay options from which to craft a your plan.

XkrFh.jpg

It gets complicated.

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BUT it's Weisman's license now, I guess. Partially. A Shadowrun MMO is also in the works, and it will be set later in the timeline (the 2070s) and it will feature callbacks to Shadowrun Returns.

Hold On, What is Shadowrun?

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Never heard of Shadowrun? Here is a PDF introduction to the setting. Alternatively:
Created almost 25 years ago, Shadowrun remains one of the most original and cherished role-playing settings. The game world’s origin story mashes-up the dystopian Cyberpunk future of a Blade Runner with the high fantasy creatures and races of a Lords of the Rings in an organic way that produces iconic characters, environments, and situations.

It's the RPG setting that you'd get if Neal Stephenson wrote The Lord of the Rings. It's cyberpunk all the way down, from the corporations that control everything to the glorification of hackers and punks and outcasts and robot limbs, but it also has a mystical/spiritual side, which manifests itself in the form of shaman who can enter the astral plane and elves and orcs and other creatures which are walking around smoking cigarettes. Here's how the Kickstarter describes the universe:
According to the Mayan Calendar (and lots of tabloids), the world will end on December 21, 2012. It’s part a 5,200 year cycle of death and rebirth that, in Shadowrun, actually charts the ebb and flow of magic from the Earth. So, on 12/21/12 magic will return, end this world, and wreak holy havoc while starting the next. Aboriginal cultures, who maintained their mystical traditions, are the first to feel the return of magic and use their newfound power to reshape the political, financial, and physical world around them. As the magic increases, Elf and Dwarf babies are born to very surprised parents who carry the right combination of long-dormant genes. But all of these events pale in comparison to the horror of "goblinization", which painfully reshapes the teenage bodies of those unlucky enough to carry dominant Ork or Troll genes. And then the first Great Dragon rises from its 5,200 yearlong hibernation and circles over Tokyo, signaling that the world has truly AWAKENED.

Fast forward two generations, to a world transformed not only by the growth of magic but by the acceleration of cyber technology—a continual effort to improve upon the gifts that nature gave humanity; by the inevitable maturation of the World Wide Web into the Matrix—a network directly accessible by the human brain; and by the near elimination of governments as they are replaced megacorporations—monolithic entities who see only customers, not citizens.

And moving through the dark shadows cast by the gleaming towers of the corps, are Shadowrunners – disposable assets and corporate pawns scratching out a living using a combination of technology, magic, and street smarts. Shadowrunners live between the cracks and operate outside the law, doing the dirty work that corporate wage-slaves won’t soil their hands with and occasionally acting as the only protection the citizenry can turn to.

Welcome to the world of Shadowrun, where man meets magic and machine.

The Shadowrun Wiki is a nice place to brush up on the lore. Learn about the noble Century Ferret and peruse the inscrutable last will and testament of the first and only dragon president of the United Canadian and American States.

Odds and Ends

TychoCelchuuu on
FleebAsheElvenshaefedaykin666TinklescB557
«13456796

Posts

  • FleebFleeb has all of the fleeb juice Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    [*]

    Oh... oh good god. I'd forgotten all about this video.

    I wish I could again.

    Fleeb on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    What are you talking about, that video's the best thing to ever come out of Shadowrun.

    LoveIsUnityElvenshaeJacobkoshMrVyngaard
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I try to keep track of all the updates and news about SR:R on the official Shadowrun tumblr along with the other existing and upcoming properties. All of the Returns-related posts should be accessible here.

    There is a 10MB PDF primer on the Shadowrun Universe available, but as it goes to 2060 (It's way out of date with the tabletop/SRO universe, which is now in 2075) it may contain spoilers or spoiler-ish information on some events or groups.

    There is a dedicated Shadowrun: Returns wiki that includes a whole section on the Editor—includes Tutorials so you can eventually become as awesome as Anon.

    @TychoCelchuuu Your forums link is broken. This is the right one.

    Crimsondude on
    FleebTychoCelchuuuElvenshae
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    Thanks - the OP hasn't been updated in forever.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/shadowrun/shadowrun.htm

    This also covers the pre-Shadowrun Returns games, including the extremely rare Sega CD game that some lunatic is trying to fan translate.

    tumblr_mrvyw9Fget1s1wdzzo1_500.jpg

    Hmm..

    cj iwakura on
    wJyG2Dm.png
    The world will once again become steeped in fog. Welcome To The 25区 | 人生を殺す
    LoveIsUnityPMAversElvenshaeBlood DriveMild ConfusionMagicalGoats
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    There's not enough "shop" assets. It's downright painful trying too create a magic shop without to much repetition.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    Could you just use different NPCs and give them surrounding props to make them stand out, kind of like Algernon's setup? Put a lot of summoning runes around them or something.

    wJyG2Dm.png
    The world will once again become steeped in fog. Welcome To The 25区 | 人生を殺す
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    I mean like... Decor. There's just not a lot which screams "magic shop". No cluttered counter top, display cases with artifacts, etc.

    Just a minor annoyance until I figure out a solution. There's always a solution in this editor.

    I've already improved my security camera scripts. Now they're all running the 2.0 stuff, better watch your step.

    Always watching.

    TychoCelchuuuCrimsondudeElvenshae
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    tumblr_mrvyw9Fget1s1wdzzo1_500.jpg

    Hmm..

    The rarest SR book. Only 12 exist. Some whisper of a secret 13th, but why would you hide that ...

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    http://shadowrunreturns.nexusmods.com/mods/42//?

    Modpack with some environments based on the Mercurial sourcebook. Also has a large bar map with only basic transition points coded in @cj iwakura.

    Dedwrekka on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    Uh, apparently I have to register and pay just to download that?

    wJyG2Dm.png
    The world will once again become steeped in fog. Welcome To The 25区 | 人生を殺す
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu ___________PIGEON _________San Diego, CA Registered User regular
    Nope.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Uh, apparently I have to register and pay just to download that?

    Maybe register, but I've never paid a dime for anything on any of the Nexus sites. Should totally be a free download option.

    Elvenshaeskyknyt
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Oh, I thought one of those options was required. Whoops.

    Will I need to put the mappack anywhere special, or just find it using the editor?

    cj iwakura on
    wJyG2Dm.png
    The world will once again become steeped in fog. Welcome To The 25区 | 人生を殺す
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Oh, I thought one of those options was required. Whoops.

    Will I need to put the mappack anywhere special, or just find it using the editor?

    You can find it anywhere you put it from the editor. Just download, scan and unzip the files. The normal area for content packs in the editor is in the documents folder, though. Copy the maps (either directly by highlighting and copying the assets or through copying the scene), add them to your content pack, and make sure to credit the mod's author and you'll be good.

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    So, here's what I'm thinking:

    I want to do some crafting system.

    You'll be able to build "one shot" items. Something like... "Arcane Focus", you can only build it if you have int and casting at X. When used, it gives you another round, after you finish your current round. So you can dump spells on a guy, or buff everyone, etc. Another one would be... Deployable Cover. It places a 1x1 barrier right where you're standing. This is also where you would build your weapon mods. You build a "Smartchip", then get the gun you want to mod, and modify it into a smartgun. Same with suppressors. I'll probably lump the best drones, grenades, and spells in with this. There might be a computer where you "code" the best ESP's. Making it so you actually have to find the resources and build the best equipment. Instead of just buying it. Making it rare, and really give a sense of accomplishment.

    In order to build these, you need resources.

    You go get a resource. You can only get one of each resource at a time, and it will be stored until you craft it into something. Some resources will be used in multiple objects ("metal plating" might be used in both deployable cover and building a suppressor). Since you can only have one of each resource at a time, you'll have to make some decisions about the order you want to craft stuff. It will also take quite a bit of time to build one of every consumable resource, plus having a backup resource to build another one. The idea is that you build something, then use it on a job, then have to make a decision between getting the resource and building another one, or doing without.

    There will be one rather large zone, sort of a wasteland area. With a ruined outbuilding, probably a damaged road, lots of gangers and mutants, other people out scavenging, etc. Think STALKER's "Zone". Magic fonts, corporate "Repo" squads, etc. It'll be very combat heavy. Not much in the way of conversation time.

    On this map will be a dozen or so resource points. When the map loads, three to four of them activate randomly.

    The player can comb the zone looking for all the nodes which activated, plus doing the three to five random activities which activate ("Defend this burnt out truck against a rush of gangers, be rewarded with X.", "Hack this damaged cyberlocker, find some nuyen."), and then go back home and craft everything they can. Or, they can just run in and grab the first resource they find, leave, and reload the map, hoping for something else.

    This might not be in the initial package, just tossing some ideas around for mechanics to refine.

    Opinions?

    Albino BunnyArchsorcererElvenshaeIoloAsheTeeMan
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    That all sounds fabulous. The one thing I would say is don't lump the best drones or spells in. Lump in more unique/specialised stuff if you want but unlike most of the other things your describing spells and drones are integral to certain builds. Having the 'best' of those only be craftable pushes those builds towards having to deal with crafting much more than other builds do which seems kinda lame (especially when everyone else is getting cool gizmos from crafting and deckers/mages are just getting class standards).

    Elvenshae
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    I just mean the "high end". Like, Fireball 1 and 2 would be readily available behind a Nuyen wall.

    Fireball 3 though, that you'll have to craft.

    I understand what you're saying though. I'll see if there's a best of both worlds.

  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny A Storyteller Registered User regular
    With drones I'd recommend getting some 'modded' drones.

    Like support drones with different load outs item wise, or combat drones with a more accurate but lower ammo weapon. Things that are either minor boosts or sidegrades without really effecting someone who just wants to go 'well I just want this S class drone store brought'.

    Not played a mage so can't comment on their mechanics.

    Elvenshae
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Yeah, then we get into the realm where I'm having to create items, and not prompts.

    The whole thing would operate like this: You click your character to bring up your backpack (a dialog displaying what items/functions you have available). You select what you want to use, and the stuff happens. I wanted to avoid having to create entirely new items to be used in the inventory, since that's a pretty quick way to unbalance things. I wanted it to either function as a barrier for high end gear, or one-off consumable perks.

    I think you're right though. I'll abandon the idea of hiding drones in this system. Spells I think are fine, since hiding the level 3 spell behind a difficult process is a good way to limit potential power to a more reasonable level. That will have to be tested though.

    I'll definately look into modded drones. See how hard that is to create, and how easy it is to keep balanced. I want this to be more like "furture-tech equipment", not "bog standard gear".

    Maybe a better route would be "Drone Overload Module", a device you create which allows you to detonate your drone, dealing tremendous damage to anything near it. Pay a high cost, to eliminate a hard opponent or bunch of opponents. Another option would be a way to overclock the drone for a little while. Maybe increasing it's AP and such for a turn or two, before reducing it's HP to 1 and putting it in a "stasis" state.

    I'll come back to this. Just kind of a "drawing board" concept right now.

    Anon the Felon on
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    So, here's what I'm thinking:

    I want to do some crafting system.

    You'll be able to build "one shot" items. Something like... "Arcane Focus", you can only build it if you have int and casting at X. When used, it gives you another round, after you finish your current round. So you can dump spells on a guy, or buff everyone, etc. Another one would be... Deployable Cover. It places a 1x1 barrier right where you're standing. This is also where you would build your weapon mods. You build a "Smartchip", then get the gun you want to mod, and modify it into a smartgun. Same with suppressors. I'll probably lump the best drones, grenades, and spells in with this. There might be a computer where you "code" the best ESP's. Making it so you actually have to find the resources and build the best equipment. Instead of just buying it. Making it rare, and really give a sense of accomplishment.

    In order to build these, you need resources.

    You go get a resource. You can only get one of each resource at a time, and it will be stored until you craft it into something. Some resources will be used in multiple objects ("metal plating" might be used in both deployable cover and building a suppressor). Since you can only have one of each resource at a time, you'll have to make some decisions about the order you want to craft stuff. It will also take quite a bit of time to build one of every consumable resource, plus having a backup resource to build another one. The idea is that you build something, then use it on a job, then have to make a decision between getting the resource and building another one, or doing without.

    There will be one rather large zone, sort of a wasteland area. With a ruined outbuilding, probably a damaged road, lots of gangers and mutants, other people out scavenging, etc. Think STALKER's "Zone". Magic fonts, corporate "Repo" squads, etc. It'll be very combat heavy. Not much in the way of conversation time.

    On this map will be a dozen or so resource points. When the map loads, three to four of them activate randomly.

    The player can comb the zone looking for all the nodes which activated, plus doing the three to five random activities which activate ("Defend this burnt out truck against a rush of gangers, be rewarded with X.", "Hack this damaged cyberlocker, find some nuyen."), and then go back home and craft everything they can. Or, they can just run in and grab the first resource they find, leave, and reload the map, hoping for something else.

    This might not be in the initial package, just tossing some ideas around for mechanics to refine.

    Opinions?

    Other than me hating you for making my attempts at building anything look puny and pathetic?

    Nope. Sounds good.
    JERK.

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Here's something fun I just came up with:

    So there will be some missions which will set your wanted status to "true". Like missions where you set off the alarms, or otherwise make your whereabouts known (you'll always have an indicator of this, a team member will say something to let you know you've set off the alarm).

    While this status is true, you'll have Lonestar attacking you in the hubs. Not big attacks, just random annoyances you'll have to deal with.

    You'll also have access to a guy who can remove your wanted status for Karma (as discussed earlier).

    But! Now! While your wanted status is true, you'll have access to a corporate fixer. He'll have a few jobs where you can do some of the dirty jobs. Bounties on failed experiments or prisoners. Going into a corporate office and stealing vital product data. Whatever else I think of.

    The thing is! In exchange for these missions, on top of any normal reward, he'll wipe your wanted status.

    Since he's only available when you are wanted, and removes you from being wanted... You have to do a dirty job, to get the guy to notice you, so he can give you a dirtier job.

    I kind of think this is really cool.

    ArchsorcererElvenshaeIoloMorninglordHyphyKezzyHuddsAshelonelyahavajakobaggercB557Rear Admiral ChocoEdith Upwards
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    Grim times, grim crimes. :)

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
    Elvenshae
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    So, here's what I'm thinking:

    I want to do some crafting system.

    You'll be able to build "one shot" items. Something like... "Arcane Focus", you can only build it if you have int and casting at X. When used, it gives you another round, after you finish your current round. So you can dump spells on a guy, or buff everyone, etc. Another one would be... Deployable Cover. It places a 1x1 barrier right where you're standing. This is also where you would build your weapon mods. You build a "Smartchip", then get the gun you want to mod, and modify it into a smartgun. Same with suppressors. I'll probably lump the best drones, grenades, and spells in with this. There might be a computer where you "code" the best ESP's. Making it so you actually have to find the resources and build the best equipment. Instead of just buying it. Making it rare, and really give a sense of accomplishment.

    In order to build these, you need resources.

    You go get a resource. You can only get one of each resource at a time, and it will be stored until you craft it into something. Some resources will be used in multiple objects ("metal plating" might be used in both deployable cover and building a suppressor). Since you can only have one of each resource at a time, you'll have to make some decisions about the order you want to craft stuff. It will also take quite a bit of time to build one of every consumable resource, plus having a backup resource to build another one. The idea is that you build something, then use it on a job, then have to make a decision between getting the resource and building another one, or doing without.

    There will be one rather large zone, sort of a wasteland area. With a ruined outbuilding, probably a damaged road, lots of gangers and mutants, other people out scavenging, etc. Think STALKER's "Zone". Magic fonts, corporate "Repo" squads, etc. It'll be very combat heavy. Not much in the way of conversation time.

    On this map will be a dozen or so resource points. When the map loads, three to four of them activate randomly.

    The player can comb the zone looking for all the nodes which activated, plus doing the three to five random activities which activate ("Defend this burnt out truck against a rush of gangers, be rewarded with X.", "Hack this damaged cyberlocker, find some nuyen."), and then go back home and craft everything they can. Or, they can just run in and grab the first resource they find, leave, and reload the map, hoping for something else.

    This might not be in the initial package, just tossing some ideas around for mechanics to refine.

    Opinions?

    Might want to look into Street Samurai Catalog for weapon upgrades, Rigger's Black Book for drone upgrades (they're shared with "Vehicle Upgrades"), instead of "deploy-able cover" make a Riot Shield, Maglocks on a locker instead of "cyberlocker", The arcane focus is interesting but also so unlike anything in the cannon that I don't know how to translate it well into the setting, and spell formula should be the resource for spell creation. Also might want to have it go through a specialized contacts who build it for the character. That avoids most of the easy stuff that doesn't quite fit into the setting.

    Spell formula are the basics of how spells are learned for both traditions. For a shaman (summoner/conjuror) it might be a ritual or rite of passage, and for a hermetic (spellcaster) it might be a dissertation on magic or a complex mathematical formula. There are people who create spells but they require facilities to do it, and it isn't really possible to create whole new ones at home unless that home also has magical research facilities (which themselves can take many forms). A talismonger friend, fixer, or a contact with connections to a lodge or facility could be used as the go-to person for making spells if the player provides the right materials or barters for the information.

    Combat drones and drone upgrades are the kind of things that require facilities to build, and aren't really possible for garage builders. You might be able to install a software upgrade or replace a like item, but manufacturing just isn't possible without the facilities. A good mechanic, fixer, or someone with contacts within a facility would be able to build drones or upgrades for the player with the right materials or for barter. Ditto for gun mods.

    I see it being easier to set up through mail drops or bartering materials to the right contact for the item immediately. Also fits into a lot of the cannon with some fixers providing tech, weapons, and items over nuyen when hiring on a job and also serving as a fence for goods. Certain corp Johnsons (either Fuchi or Renraku) are well known for providing tech over nuyen as well.

    Dedwrekka on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    You might be interested in this. Harebrained is hosting two SR:R Webinars on September 7.

    Crimsondude on
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I don't think it actually requires a facility-grade building or crew to create new spells. Those facilities do exist and they do churn out novel spell formulae, but you can also "accidentally" create spells (at least, as written in the canon and fiction... there aren't specific rules on how to do this, though). For learning new spells, even ones that you don't have the formula for, there are (cheesy) rules for going on an Astral Quest to do so (if you can project and you are an initiate, of course). The Astral Quest mechanic was ditched in 4th edition for obvious reasons, I think. For both 3rd and 4th editions, there are rules for "unique enchantments" which require gnarly telesma to craft that allow you to do pretty much anything within the structure of the magic system (basically, it's a GM trump card to create anything they want as a magical Maguffin). Prior editions also had plenty of unique enchantments (a Force 10 Power Focus that doesn't require bonding, but is inhabited by a malevolent being, for example), but they didn't have codified rules for creating them (I think... I don't have my 2nd edition Grimoire sitting around). Since spell formulas above a certain rating are restricted in most areas (and certainly they are in Seattle), you would be well within your rights to make a mod which restricts the access to spell formulas as a prerequisite to learning certain spells.

    Shadowrun 5th edition added Alchemy rules which create temporary one-shot self-sustaining magical effects. In prior editions, this was covered by Anchoring metamagic, but this cost a butt-ton of Karma, enough that most players never used it. It is implied that such one-shot self-sustaining magical effects have existed throughout the history of Shadowrun (Lugh Surehand avoids an assassination attempt with a one-shot magical barrier that is described as similar to Anchoring prior to 2050, for example), so with the existence both Alchemy and Anchoring, you'd be well within your rights to create one-shot magical toys.

    For nomenclature, perhaps you can use "paydata" as your resource points. That would be true to the setting, and also has the advantage of being vague and ubiquitous in the context of the SR universe.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    You might be interested in this. Harebrained is hosting two SR:R Webinars on September 7.

    twitter.com/WeBeHarebrained/status/370995118007783425

    Yeah, I showed that to cj earlier. I want to sign up but I haven't even completed the youtube videos.

    You only need the tweet link to embed, right?

    Archsorcerer on
    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    I don't know man...

    Why couldn't the team go recover some advanced manufacturing device? Or steal design data for drones allowing them to build modifications? Or unearth some ancient spell tome with the secrets of certain magics? Who's to say they don't have access to an entire facility?

    I was just asking about the concept of gating the high-end/consumable widget gear behind a task which required a couple things: Resource harvesting, exploration, and critical decision making.

    You already meet contacts to get missions and such, having to talk to even more NPC's to get choice gear seems a little... Banal.

    I'm not as sure as you are that the designers of Shadowrun didn't want DM's thinking up unorthodox solutions for problems (such as players crafting stuff).

    You make some interesting points, though. I think I'd rather move forward with something people obviously think is cool. Plus I think it's cool, so that kind of trumps everything.

    Anon the Felon on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    You only need the tweet link to embed, right?

    Seems to be the case now, which is nice for me.

  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I don't think it actually requires a facility-grade building or crew to create new spells. Those facilities do exist and they do churn out novel spell formulae, but you can also "accidentally" create spells (at least, as written in the canon and fiction... there aren't specific rules on how to do this, though). For learning new spells, even ones that you don't have the formula for, there are (cheesy) rules for going on an Astral Quest to do so (if you can project and you are an initiate, of course). The Astral Quest mechanic was ditched in 4th edition for obvious reasons, I think. For both 3rd and 4th editions, there are rules for "unique enchantments" which require gnarly telesma to craft that allow you to do pretty much anything within the structure of the magic system (basically, it's a GM trump card to create anything they want as a magical Maguffin). Prior editions also had plenty of unique enchantments (a Force 10 Power Focus that doesn't require bonding, but is inhabited by a malevolent being, for example), but they didn't have codified rules for creating them (I think... I don't have my 2nd edition Grimoire sitting around). Since spell formulas above a certain rating are restricted in most areas (and certainly they are in Seattle), you would be well within your rights to make a mod which restricts the access to spell formulas as a prerequisite to learning certain spells.

    Shadowrun 5th edition added Alchemy rules which create temporary one-shot self-sustaining magical effects. In prior editions, this was covered by Anchoring metamagic, but this cost a butt-ton of Karma, enough that most players never used it. It is implied that such one-shot self-sustaining magical effects have existed throughout the history of Shadowrun (Lugh Surehand avoids an assassination attempt with a one-shot magical barrier that is described as similar to Anchoring prior to 2050, for example), so with the existence both Alchemy and Anchoring, you'd be well within your rights to create one-shot magical toys.

    For nomenclature, perhaps you can use "paydata" as your resource points. That would be true to the setting, and also has the advantage of being vague and ubiquitous in the context of the SR universe.

    This is more what I was thinking. Alchemy, DIY engineering, tradecraft stuff. The spells/drones stuff was more of a passing thought. I really want to limit the highest tier of gear and spells. So maybe one guy on your team has a HK227. Maybe another has Powerbolt 3. But you can't just run down the store and outfit everyone in the top end.

    I also wanted to avoid the "I use this book to mail order everything in the known universe" trick.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I don't know man...

    Why couldn't the team go recover some advanced manufacturing device? Or steal design data for drones allowing them to build modifications? Or unearth some ancient spell tome with the secrets of certain magics? Who's to say they don't have access to an entire facility?

    I was just asking about the concept of gating the high-end/consumable widget gear behind a task which required a couple things: Resource harvesting, exploration, and critical decision making.

    You already meet contacts to get missions and such, having to talk to even more NPC's to get choice gear seems a little... Banal.

    I'm not as sure as you are that the designers of Shadowrun didn't want DM's thinking up unorthodox solutions for problems (such as players crafting stuff).

    You make some interesting points, though. I think I'd rather move forward with something people obviously think is cool. Plus I think it's cool, so that kind of trumps everything.
    Shadowrun has always had Build/Repair skills in one form or another. Some editions even had intricate crafting rules for creating pretty much anything that you wanted to (vehicle construction rules, firearm construction rules, etc.). By 2063, desktop forges (basically, uber versions of 3-D printers) have become commonplace (not quite ubiquitous, but the technology was "delayed" a bit by corporations who wanted to make sure that they had firm control over the manufacturing materials used in desktop forges... it's not the printer that's the scam, it's the ink *grin*).

    I think a paydata system where you got paydata for doing side tasks in runs and exchanging those paydata "points" for cool shit would be a great system, personally. Most runners in actual pen and paper games would simply mail-order stuff through their fixer, though.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    So, a player could get one of these desktop forges, then collect... I don't know... "Forge fuel" (sorry, man, paydata is too generic for me, for this. I do use it in other places though. This just needs a little more clarity.), in order to justify being able to create objects. In fact, this could be a prototype version. Here's another job to do.

    Then they also need to collect... Um... "Volatile project data". Recovered data for building things, blueprints as it were. Since this stuff is likely old, degraded, illegal, or just plain poorly coded, they meltdown/decay after a single use, and you need to get more.

    Now you have two alternate resources to collect. Fuel for your crafting engine, plus the data to craft those things.

    I kind of like that.

    Edit: Oo! The crafting data is worked into all the jobs you can do. So as you do jobs, you'll get gear to build. All you'll need is to go venture out and get the resource to build it.

    Anon the Felon on
    caligynefob
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I don't think it actually requires a facility-grade building or crew to create new spells. Those facilities do exist and they do churn out novel spell formulae, but you can also "accidentally" create spells (at least, as written in the canon and fiction... there aren't specific rules on how to do this, though). For learning new spells, even ones that you don't have the formula for, there are (cheesy) rules for going on an Astral Quest to do so (if you can project and you are an initiate, of course). The Astral Quest mechanic was ditched in 4th edition for obvious reasons, I think. For both 3rd and 4th editions, there are rules for "unique enchantments" which require gnarly telesma to craft that allow you to do pretty much anything within the structure of the magic system (basically, it's a GM trump card to create anything they want as a magical Maguffin). Prior editions also had plenty of unique enchantments (a Force 10 Power Focus that doesn't require bonding, but is inhabited by a malevolent being, for example), but they didn't have codified rules for creating them (I think... I don't have my 2nd edition Grimoire sitting around). Since spell formulas above a certain rating are restricted in most areas (and certainly they are in Seattle), you would be well within your rights to make a mod which restricts the access to spell formulas as a prerequisite to learning certain spells.

    Shadowrun 5th edition added Alchemy rules which create temporary one-shot self-sustaining magical effects. In prior editions, this was covered by Anchoring metamagic, but this cost a butt-ton of Karma, enough that most players never used it. It is implied that such one-shot self-sustaining magical effects have existed throughout the history of Shadowrun (Lugh Surehand avoids an assassination attempt with a one-shot magical barrier that is described as similar to Anchoring prior to 2050, for example), so with the existence both Alchemy and Anchoring, you'd be well within your rights to create one-shot magical toys.

    For nomenclature, perhaps you can use "paydata" as your resource points. That would be true to the setting, and also has the advantage of being vague and ubiquitous in the context of the SR universe.

    Magic in the Shadows and Grimoire cover spell creation, and both cover the same process almost to the letter (Magic in the Shadows is formatted better though). In particular there's a set of knowledge skills needed just to create spell formula. Shamans specifically require access to a lodge in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Hermetics specifically require a spell library of significant force in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Not every formula is the same for every tradition either. The spell formula for a spell for a Shaman and for a Hermetic are going to be completely different even if it's the same spell. A Shaman's might be a piece of art, a set of runes, or a ritual. A Hermetic's might be a mathematical formula, a complex diagram, or a dissertation on the magical arts.
    Spell formula work like blueprints and without them even the person making the spell cannot use it. In the interest of normalizing the process, in order to bypass the requirement for certain facilities, in order to bypass the requirements to know how to design a spell, and in order to have the excessive time and money required to put into the design happen behind the scenes I still think using contacts is the best option. It's also extremely illegal for private citizens to create or distribute formula without licenses and having the materials alone without a license could net you more time (and worse time) than gunning down a Lonestar patrol.

    Dedwrekka on
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    I just found a giant spelling error in my naming convention for something. It's only visible in the editor, and fixing it will take hours of combing through dialog trying to find where everything is connected.

    In an age far from now, anthropologists will look upon this and say to each other:

    "What is SouthStreeBulletinBoardMISSION1START, and what is SouthStreetBulletinBoardMISSION3START?"

    This will bother me for days.

    Elvenshae
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    I don't know man...

    Why couldn't the team go recover some advanced manufacturing device? Or steal design data for drones allowing them to build modifications? Or unearth some ancient spell tome with the secrets of certain magics? Who's to say they don't have access to an entire facility?

    I was just asking about the concept of gating the high-end/consumable widget gear behind a task which required a couple things: Resource harvesting, exploration, and critical decision making.

    You already meet contacts to get missions and such, having to talk to even more NPC's to get choice gear seems a little... Banal.

    I'm not as sure as you are that the designers of Shadowrun didn't want DM's thinking up unorthodox solutions for problems (such as players crafting stuff).

    You make some interesting points, though. I think I'd rather move forward with something people obviously think is cool. Plus I think it's cool, so that kind of trumps everything.

    At the same time that kind of thing puts players on the level of small corporations. Being able to design and develop kit like that isn't a garage level development process. I'm not saying that it's not possible for player to make it, but that it shouldn't be as easy as finding materials and putting them together. At the very least the player should need access to some sort of facility specific to making the item type. A shop in order to make drones, a spell library to make spellcasting spells, a lodge to make conjuring spells, a gunsmith to make weapons and weapon mods, ect. Building it in an apartment workshop just seems to trivialize the process, to me anyways.

    But again, if you think it's cool, it's your mod.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I don't think it actually requires a facility-grade building or crew to create new spells. Those facilities do exist and they do churn out novel spell formulae, but you can also "accidentally" create spells (at least, as written in the canon and fiction... there aren't specific rules on how to do this, though). For learning new spells, even ones that you don't have the formula for, there are (cheesy) rules for going on an Astral Quest to do so (if you can project and you are an initiate, of course). The Astral Quest mechanic was ditched in 4th edition for obvious reasons, I think. For both 3rd and 4th editions, there are rules for "unique enchantments" which require gnarly telesma to craft that allow you to do pretty much anything within the structure of the magic system (basically, it's a GM trump card to create anything they want as a magical Maguffin). Prior editions also had plenty of unique enchantments (a Force 10 Power Focus that doesn't require bonding, but is inhabited by a malevolent being, for example), but they didn't have codified rules for creating them (I think... I don't have my 2nd edition Grimoire sitting around). Since spell formulas above a certain rating are restricted in most areas (and certainly they are in Seattle), you would be well within your rights to make a mod which restricts the access to spell formulas as a prerequisite to learning certain spells.

    Shadowrun 5th edition added Alchemy rules which create temporary one-shot self-sustaining magical effects. In prior editions, this was covered by Anchoring metamagic, but this cost a butt-ton of Karma, enough that most players never used it. It is implied that such one-shot self-sustaining magical effects have existed throughout the history of Shadowrun (Lugh Surehand avoids an assassination attempt with a one-shot magical barrier that is described as similar to Anchoring prior to 2050, for example), so with the existence both Alchemy and Anchoring, you'd be well within your rights to create one-shot magical toys.

    For nomenclature, perhaps you can use "paydata" as your resource points. That would be true to the setting, and also has the advantage of being vague and ubiquitous in the context of the SR universe.

    Magic in the Shadows and Grimoire cover spell creation, and both cover the same process almost to the letter (Magic in the Shadows is formatted better though). In particular there's a set of knowledge skills needed just to create spell formula. Shamans specifically require access to a lodge in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Hermetics specifically require a spell library of significant force in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Not every formula is the same for every tradition either. The spell formula for a spell for a Shaman and for a Hermetic are going to be completely different even if it's the same spell. A Shaman's might be a piece of art, a set of runes, or a ritual. A Hermetic's might be a mathematical formula, a complex diagram, or a dissertation on the magical arts.
    Yes, but the rules don't cover "accidental" spell creation, like when a young mage channels pure mana to accidentally set their house on fire, for example, discovering that they have the talent. That was what I was referring to when I said there are no rules for this, as clarification (it was left to GM fiat). Also, while the appearance of a formula may be different, ALL magical traditions can use the formula (at a penalty if it is not part of their tradition, and this penalty varies based on which edition you are playing).

    A lodge or a library is not a facility, even by the rules of 3rd edition or prior Shadowrun. Facilities cost 100,000 nuyen or more. Perhaps this is just a semantics issue, but it is way cheaper (and expected) to purchase a lodge or library. You certainly don't need a whole team to make one spell (although this does exist in the fiction). A Shadowrunner can be reasonably expected to be able to create a brand new spell after just one run's worth of pay.

    Both 4th and 5th editions have a formal Arcana active skill which is specifically used to create and understand foci and spell formula. In prior editions, it was a specific knowledge skill instead (depending on edition). A mundane could learn the knowledge skill and create a spell or focus formula, although they have no way of testing it by themselves.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGen: Hahnsoo, FC: 4141-2384-3379
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    I don't know man...

    Why couldn't the team go recover some advanced manufacturing device? Or steal design data for drones allowing them to build modifications? Or unearth some ancient spell tome with the secrets of certain magics? Who's to say they don't have access to an entire facility?

    I was just asking about the concept of gating the high-end/consumable widget gear behind a task which required a couple things: Resource harvesting, exploration, and critical decision making.

    You already meet contacts to get missions and such, having to talk to even more NPC's to get choice gear seems a little... Banal.

    I'm not as sure as you are that the designers of Shadowrun didn't want DM's thinking up unorthodox solutions for problems (such as players crafting stuff).

    You make some interesting points, though. I think I'd rather move forward with something people obviously think is cool. Plus I think it's cool, so that kind of trumps everything.

    At the same time that kind of thing puts players on the level of small corporations. Being able to design and develop kit like that isn't a garage level development process. I'm not saying that it's not possible for player to make it, but that it shouldn't be as easy as finding materials and putting them together. At the very least the player should need access to some sort of facility specific to making the item type. A shop in order to make drones, a spell library to make spellcasting spells, a lodge to make conjuring spells, a gunsmith to make weapons and weapon mods, ect. Building it in an apartment workshop just seems to trivialize the process, to me anyways.

    But again, if you think it's cool, it's your mod.

    Hmmm. You make a couple of very good points I hadn't really considered.

    I like the idea of knocking down the walls to expand the apartment. That's going to happen.

    How about, instead of a small nook for crafting, you open up a second apartment. Like, you've just expanded to a sort of flat. In that second apartment, you must now buy/steal/trade for the crafting engines. Plus figure out how to get adequate power and protection from the increased traffic you're bound to generate on the network. Then hire some experts/workers to run the stuff.

    Now you have the small facility required to make one or two things at a time, a lot of investment and sub-mission stuff to collect, and opening up new content.

    I'm don't object to just having a small scale facility the player travels to. I just want this to be a little bit incorporated into the players "home". To give it greater purpose.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I don't think it actually requires a facility-grade building or crew to create new spells. Those facilities do exist and they do churn out novel spell formulae, but you can also "accidentally" create spells (at least, as written in the canon and fiction... there aren't specific rules on how to do this, though). For learning new spells, even ones that you don't have the formula for, there are (cheesy) rules for going on an Astral Quest to do so (if you can project and you are an initiate, of course). The Astral Quest mechanic was ditched in 4th edition for obvious reasons, I think. For both 3rd and 4th editions, there are rules for "unique enchantments" which require gnarly telesma to craft that allow you to do pretty much anything within the structure of the magic system (basically, it's a GM trump card to create anything they want as a magical Maguffin). Prior editions also had plenty of unique enchantments (a Force 10 Power Focus that doesn't require bonding, but is inhabited by a malevolent being, for example), but they didn't have codified rules for creating them (I think... I don't have my 2nd edition Grimoire sitting around). Since spell formulas above a certain rating are restricted in most areas (and certainly they are in Seattle), you would be well within your rights to make a mod which restricts the access to spell formulas as a prerequisite to learning certain spells.

    Shadowrun 5th edition added Alchemy rules which create temporary one-shot self-sustaining magical effects. In prior editions, this was covered by Anchoring metamagic, but this cost a butt-ton of Karma, enough that most players never used it. It is implied that such one-shot self-sustaining magical effects have existed throughout the history of Shadowrun (Lugh Surehand avoids an assassination attempt with a one-shot magical barrier that is described as similar to Anchoring prior to 2050, for example), so with the existence both Alchemy and Anchoring, you'd be well within your rights to create one-shot magical toys.

    For nomenclature, perhaps you can use "paydata" as your resource points. That would be true to the setting, and also has the advantage of being vague and ubiquitous in the context of the SR universe.

    Magic in the Shadows and Grimoire cover spell creation, and both cover the same process almost to the letter (Magic in the Shadows is formatted better though). In particular there's a set of knowledge skills needed just to create spell formula. Shamans specifically require access to a lodge in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Hermetics specifically require a spell library of significant force in order to make spell formula for a new spell. Not every formula is the same for every tradition either. The spell formula for a spell for a Shaman and for a Hermetic are going to be completely different even if it's the same spell. A Shaman's might be a piece of art, a set of runes, or a ritual. A Hermetic's might be a mathematical formula, a complex diagram, or a dissertation on the magical arts.
    Yes, but the rules don't cover "accidental" spell creation, like when a young mage channels pure mana to accidentally set their house on fire, for example, discovering that they have the talent. That was what I was referring to when I said there are no rules for this, as clarification (it was left to GM fiat). Also, while the appearance of a formula may be different, ALL magical traditions can use the formula (at a penalty if it is not part of their tradition, and this penalty varies based on which edition you are playing).

    A lodge or a library is not a facility, even by the rules of 3rd edition or prior Shadowrun. Facilities cost 100,000 nuyen or more. Perhaps this is just a semantics issue, but it is way cheaper (and expected) to purchase a lodge or library. You certainly don't need a whole team to make one spell (although this does exist in the fiction). A Shadowrunner can be reasonably expected to be able to create a brand new spell after just one run's worth of pay.

    Both 4th and 5th editions have a formal Arcana active skill which is specifically used to create and understand foci and spell formula. In prior editions, it was a specific knowledge skill instead (depending on edition). A mundane could learn the knowledge skill and create a spell or focus formula, although they have no way of testing it by themselves.

    Mostly it isn't covered because it isn't really there. The rules for creating spells, including the GM portions, don't cover accidental creation. Simply because it just doesn't really seem to happen. Even the steps for making a spell point out that it just isn't really possible to have some accidental spell creation. It requires an understanding of the mechanics of mana and and understanding of how to manipulate that mana. Mana itself doesn't do anything on it's own, and cannot act on it's own. That's one of the rules of magic. You can't just think "fireball" and make a fireball, you have to understand how to funnel and shape mana to create a ball of fire and then make it do what you want.

    Frankly the ability to GM fiat something in doesn't give it legitimacy in the setting. You can GM fiat anything in or out of the setting, but that doesn't make it cannon or coherent.

    Also at several points I was using "facilities" as a non-specific noun to refer to places required for the work to happen and not directly referencing the "Facility" level of tools that can be bought, so I can understand why that got confused. As shop and facility are both used as levels of tools in the game and are also my most commonly used nouns to describe the kind of environment where development work would take place, it's a bit hard for me to not slip up and use one when I'm not talking about the Shadowrun usage.

    Dedwrekka on
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Player finds an abandoned basement and gets some former runners to run a secret workshop. How about that?

    Convincing them is a different game. :)

    "There was this place called the Universal Brotherhood but no one is using it anymore. They think it's haunted."

    Archsorcerer on
    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited August 2013
    Yeah, if I was going to go the "Player has discovered: Abandoned robotics facility!" route, they would just... Find one. That stuff is easy to do, and will be my last resort if the apartment/home expansion doesn't work out.

    Anon the Felon on
    Archsorcerer
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