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Going to an Art School at the age of 28 and weak foundation
Peas
Registered User regular
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Basically everyone is telling me how much of a fool I am and how I am basically digging an early grave for myself. I am kinda tired of following my peer's advice and getting into stuff I don't really like doing again and again. But then again I guess it's finally too late to change my life now isn't it. I've really fucked it up.
Anyone in here can tell me what I should expect at my age and skill level? Be as frank as you can, I don't mind.
Anyone in here can tell me what I should expect at my age and skill level? Be as frank as you can, I don't mind.
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On the art end of things though, I have no idea.
Shogun Streams Vidya
You're by no means fucked, but that really depends on how much passion you have for art. Art school I'm sure will teach you the foundations and principles and what have you, but you don't have your 20s to take advantage of anymore, and need to be drawing every day and doing so constantly. Not just for school, but to learn, improve, and reinforce. I hear so much from people that graduating from art school doesn't magically make you a Super Artiste. Once you've been at it long enough (don't ask me how long), you can even ask our own Artists' Corner for advice on how you are doing and what areas you need improvement on. Take those critiques to heart, because there's a lot of professionals in there, damn good ones, and they're essentially giving you free advice.
I cannot stress how important it is to spend every day, LITERALLY EVERY DAY, improving this shit. Never resting on your laurels, and never settling for "just good enough," because I cannot tell you how much I hear artists complain about their work being devalued to insulting levels. You need work that will stand out and get an employer's attention (or customers' attention, if you want to do your own thing). Your life basically needs to be wholly consumed by art at this stage in your life, and if that doesn't sound fun or like too much work, then your time and money would be better spent elsewhere.
I'm not saying this to scare your off or discourage you, it's that art is a skill that gets built up over many years of practice, and you need to understand that art school alone isn't going to cut it if you're not keeping at it in your spare time. I'm not an artist, so feel free to disregard this advice, but I'm just going off what I've heard from my own real life friends and people around this forum who are in such fields.
[Edit] Oops that sounded kind of interrogative. I'm just curious. Most schools offer fundamentals courses, so your skill going in isn't necessarily much of a deciding factor. But being able to answer some of these questions will go a long way towards figuring out what you should be expecting out of the experience.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
And also, what on earth would make you think your peers would know what would make you happier better than you do (and if you keep following their advice and winding up miserable, wouldn't it follow that they're not doing a very good job of it)?
It's your life, not theirs. You're 28, how much older do you have to be before you feel entitled to make decisions about your own life?
Seek out the advice of people that know what they're talking about, not people that don't.
Oh hey, hi, my name is Kevin, I'm a working artist in the video games industry. I make a decent salary and have medical benefits and everything, just like them thar respectable adult-type jobs I hear so much about.
This is what I have to say about art education.
Is 28 "too late"? Too late for what? I know a guy who spent the entirety of his 20's selling real-estate, then decided to pack up and do kickboxing for a year in China, then came back, went to art school for 2 years (Academy of Art University in San Fran, if you're curious), and now he's a concept artist at Maxis. Van Gogh didn't start painting until his late 20's. You're too late to be considered a child prodigy, if that's what you're hoping for. If you're hoping to become a professional, the limiting factor is whether you go and do what it takes to become a professional, or don't. And maybe you don't have the means to start doing so immediately, and maybe you have to save up to make it happen; or maybe what it would take is not worth it to you when it's all laid out. But the idea of 'too late'? Nonsense.
Now, I don't know anything about your artistic level, or what your goals are, or your financial situation, or what school you're going to, or the level of dedication you're willing to put into pursuing art. So asking us what you should "expect" is a little ridiculous.
I will say this, most art schools aren't worth the money. Sure, an Industrial Design degree from Art Center or a Character Animation degree from CalArts may pay off in the end (though they only let in people that are already amazing to begin with), but a degree from "generic art school" is pretty worthless. Lots of teachers living up to "those who can't do, teach" stereotype who otherwise would not have jobs, lots of teachers that can't teach much of value because they were taught when 'modern' art had become the establishment, and were never properly taught fundamental skills themselves. And once you've signed into a degree program, it's very hard to get away from wasting your time in classes of no real value, because you're locked into the dictates of the program, whether it's doing you any good or not. There are a few outlier programs/teachers spread about, of course- I've heard San Jose State has a surprisingly good animation/illustration program for example (the lead background painter for Legend of Korra went there), but part of that is also because it's an 8 year long bachelor's program.
So if you're going to art school, make sure that this school has alumni that are doing what it is you want to be doing, at the level you want to be doing it. If that's not the case, go find one that can claim that- otherwise you're throwing your money down a hole, and will probably continue to do so for the next couple decades. And don't get trapped in a 'throwing good money after bad' fallacy either- if a school tells you should ride out the last 2 years of a program you're not happy with just to get your degree, run immediately. Go elsewhere, go someplace where you'll get your money's worth. (If you can't tell if you're getting your money's worth or not, reading and studing a lot of art books helps give a knowledge base that will make it fairly plain if you're having smoke blown up your ass or not.)
If you want to train up on good, traditional foundational skills, you'll probably get more bang for your buck going to an atelier or other pay-as-you-go studio class than from a university degree. LAAFA, Water Street, Watts Atelier, 3kicks studio, etc (see also: http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/ateliers.php).
These are significantly cheaper than a university degree (I suspect at age 28 you're not going to be pining for the 'college experience'- where half your money goes towards building sports stadiums and the like- which inflates tuition costs into the stratosphere), and are staffed by professional, working artists. (As a general rule, while you should not discount a critique from anyone out of hand, you should try to always make sure you're being taught by artists whose own work you respect. If a teacher won't show their work to students, alarm bells should be ringing.)
There are also online options like Noah Bradley's art camp (couple of AC guys took it, they can give you more info), Gnomon/Schoolism classes, or (Disclaimer: I went to Watts Atelier for awhile so this is going to sound like an ad) the Watts Atelier online program. The good things about stuff like this is that the information is going to be good, they're a lot cheaper than college, and you'll be taking notes from people at the top of their field- the bad thing is you may not make as many personal connections with other people working in the industry (knowing people in the field is a huge asset when trying to find work), and the burden is on yourself to put in the time- it's much easier to put 3 hours in if you're in a class surrounded by a dozen people doing the same thing, than when you're on your own in your own room and your other responsibilities are demanding your attention.
And on self-learning in general, it's very easy to get in the habit of just reading books or watching videos and feel like you're learning something, but then not putting forward the practice necessary to execute on that knowledge; and it's also very easy to go the other way, and spend all your days doodling with no direction if you aren't getting direction from someone knowledgeable, and have all that time and effort go to waste, because it just ends up ingraining bad drawing habits. Only by having both can you really make the sort of significant progress you're looking for. Most people that don't make it as artists, don't strike that balance, and maybe they've never personally seen someone who does strike that balance, so they don't even know what they ought to be doing with themselves.
If you want to know how long it takes to get "good" (as if there's a standard definition of what constitutes "good" in art)- there's no single answer to it. If you spend 16 hours a day for 3 years being personally mentored by like, Richard Schmid, you'll probably be a pretty solid painter at the end of it. If you can only do 6 hours of dedicated study a week, but keep that constant, it may take anywhere from 4 to 10 years to get to that point. Or you could spend 5 years at an expensive art school and wind up never being any good because your teachers were incompetent. Or maybe they are competent, but you come out of it with so much debt that even though you're now good at art, you're financially constrained in a way that makes it not worth it to you. I can't tell you what the right decision for you is, I can only give you what information I have, and leave the ultimate choice up to your discretion- you know more about you than I do.
TL;DR:
Art education is worth it if you think it's worth it.
You're more likely to think it's worth it if you use your time and resources wisely.
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I looked at your artist corner thread and I'll be honest, you need a LOT of foundation work. Luckily improving basic skills doesn't require getting a degree. It could be that what you need are a weekly class or regularly attending life drawing sessions with a tutor. I've personally got a bad work ethic and I majorly benefit from having deadlines and structure. I find it really difficult to teach myself and stay disciplined (mad props to those who can) so school is essential.
What I'm saying is: think about yourself, what kind of work you want to do, and how you learn. Art school may be unnecessary. I've always hated those people who tried to tell me that an art career was a bad idea. They don't know what I'm capable of! Its up to you if decide if following your passions are most important.
Regardless, you gotta work on those fundamentals. They're going to be key no matter what.
Also you might want to stop referring to your stuff as "crappy" or saying that you've " really fucked it up". How is this attitude helping you? Maybe you do it as a mechanism so that if someone tears you down you can be like "haha, I told you my stuff sucks" but that's not really a healthy way to look at yourself!
I looked at your artist corner thread and I'll be honest, you need a LOT of foundation work. Luckily improving basic skills doesn't require getting a degree. It could be that what you need are a weekly class or regularly attending life drawing sessions with a tutor. I've personally got a bad work ethic and I majorly benefit from having deadlines and structure. I find it really difficult to teach myself and stay disciplined (mad props to those who can) so school is essential.
What I'm saying is: think about yourself, what kind of work you want to do, and how you learn. Art school may be unnecessary. I've always hated those people who tried to tell me that an art career was a bad idea. They don't know what I'm capable of! Its up to you if decide if following your passions are most important.
Regardless, you gotta work on those fundamentals. They're going to be key no matter what.
Also you might want to stop referring to your stuff as "crappy" or saying that you've " really fucked it up". How is this attitude helping you? Maybe you do it as a mechanism so that if someone tears you down you can be like "haha, I told you my stuff sucks" but that's not really a healthy way to look at yourself!
Good online options include:
Vilppu
Loomis
Watts Atelier
Noah CG
Proko www.youtube.com/user/ProkoTV
The purpose of a year of independent study is to test your own commitment and set a good foundation. Everybody starts out strong in the first month; its the 10 month mark where you can say, "yeah, this is a real thing. I actually want to do this."
Do you have a clear path where this degree is a required stepping stone? or are you just "passionate about art" and are sure that an art degree is the key to your success in that field, though you have no real idea how that will manifest itself? If its the later then seriously reconsider this decision.
So, this may stray a bit off track, but here are things to be aware of. This wiki article will give you a good idea of what you could be in for.
The gist of it is, a lot of art school are for profit colleges. They are not certified or accredited in anything. This means if you take a semester of classes with them, realize it's bull and want to transfer, those credits won't transfer anywhere. If you get an associates with them, you can't even take it to a more respectable school and progress to a bachelors. It's a black hole from which there is no escape.
Second thing to be aware of is the bait and switch. Your initial "guidance counselor" is actually a salesman, trained in fishing out what you are insecure about. They will then present a 4 year program at $60-90k as the solution to all your problems. They'll seem like the most awesome person you've ever met, they'll get you financed and enrolled in classes over the phone, and you are good to go.
Then you never hear from them again. The actual guidance counselor you are handed over to will ignore 99% of your emails, give you outright wrong answers, and probably cost you at least $10k in extra classes.
The classes will be a joke, and teach you more or less nothing. You may be extremely motivated and talented, but odds are the teachers you are working with won't be able to help you at all. You'll also be taking classes with the dregs of society, who will take most of the time and attention from you. These classes aren't about teaching. They are about fleecing people who don't know better. And once you do know better, they still fleece you because they are counting on you thinking "Well, I've already invested this much time and money, may as well finish it."
Now, not all art schools are like this. Just a lot of them. A lot of the ones that have commercials on TV and will accept anyone. So please, please, please thoroughly research where ever you decide to go. Then research it some more. Figure out if it's for profit. Figure out of their programs are accredited and their classes can transfer. Then research it all again. And if you even begin to get a hint of a bad vibe, don't sign up for classes with them. You dream is admirable. But there are hundreds of schools that see you as nothing more than someone to take advantage of.
I've never taken an art course nor do I know much about the field, but from the fields I've studied and know about, there's a few things to consider outside of the classroom.
First, what other activities/jobs/internships does one do beyond classwork to get a job in your field? As a chemistry major, I can tell you that the field is very generic to the point where the degree is almost a "science" degree and without any internships during the course of the program, many students had great difficulties finding employment in the field, regardless of grades. Many found employment in related fields, but I'm not sure how happy they were with those jobs. I got an internship in a related field I really enjoyed and when I found my current field and applied for it, that internship is why I was chosen for the position. Another example is a cousin of mine and a buddy of his who went after history degrees. My cousin did well in school but did virtually nothing else. His buddy did ok at school, but in the summers he would go on archeological digs and work for free or volunteer at local/state museums. His buddy had at least one opportunity/offer with a museum of his choice while my cousin ended up with no offers or opportunities at all. His buddy had to work very hard in getting those opportunities though, the school did them no favors in lining these up.
Second, if you've got an idea where you want to go, contact alumni of your program or potential programs to find out what they did to get where they are now. My university had a program where they really don't ask alumni for money [that much], but they ask you to come back and have lunch with a few students who are in the program you got your degree in to talk to them about your job/career and give advice along with potentially being a contact for them in the future. You might find out that some students in the programs listed above me might say to work very hard outside of the classroom and that's enough to get your portfolio ready so you have more options available upon graduation. Some might tell you to contact artists or folks with the degree you want and stay in contact with them, since it might help you land a job upon graduation or an internship while you study.
Third, are you willing to work hard at this? Some programs have more opportunities available and the average student does not need to work hard to get a job. When I graduated in 2003, if I had completed a Actuarial Science degree, I would've had companies contacting me for employment instead of the other way around. This is based upon the few AS students I knew. Now, they probably didn't have to work as hard since the field was in need at the time. Now, it's much tougher for folks getting that degree. The chemistry friends I had got jobs if they worked hard to get internships and the ones who didn't, ended up having to do something else in a related field if they were lucky. My career resources group was pretty good with contacting alumni to have lunch with you, but most of the work still had to be done by us.
Last, be careful about the school that tells you their grads in your program are worth X dollars a year. If the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill [where Michael Jordan graduated with a geography degree] told you that their graduates on average are worth the most in the industry, you might be inclined to think you're worth more than other programs as well. I have an anecdotal story about a guy I graduated high school with. He was a bright kid, took a 2 year technical college program in Unix systems and was told he was worth $50k at the time. He turned down jobs for around $35k and eventually never did find one and ended up working as a security guard. It turns out, if he took one of those $35k jobs and worked hard for a few years, he probably would've been at the $50k mark. You might find that you have to work a lower wage job to get experience or contacts so you can get the better job in your field.
As others have said, if this is what you want to do, you're willing to work hard and be smart about it, you can do well and have options you enjoy. It might be tougher than other fields, but it doesn't mean it is impossible, it just means the average student needs to work harder in this program than others!
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Do you already have a bachelor's degree?
Do you need loans or are you and/or your family wealthy?
Starting a new career fresh at 32 with a load of debt is kind of a hail mary.
You can expect a lifetime of debilitating debt that you are statistically unlikely to ever get out of.
If you want to do art at any cost, then go to art school
otherwise teach yourself to paint online
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
To be an artist, you have to be exceedingly good in what you do, and this takes practice, a lot of practice. I have seen personally people that become great painters, but after many years, some even draw or paint in the street drawing portraits for money.
There are good books out there that can teach you everything you need, Drawing, Painting, Illustration, Graphic design, etc, but again, it will take practice and a lot of effort. Perhaps you should take a look at the Andrew Loomis collection of books just for instance, which are dated, but still very good in teaching.
If you want to have a glince of painting, there are several good videos in youtube:
Heck, Sly Stallone was 36 and delivering pizza's before he got Rocky! Imagine if he turned down the part cause thought he was too old!
But that's me, and that's my sector of the pictures-for-money industry. I would suggest figuring out what you want to do as a professional artist, and then inquire with prospective employers as to whether or not they find hundred thousand dollar pieces of paper at all impressive.
A year at Harvard? 40k
And unlike some career tracks, in art nobody is really going to care where you went. Its all about your portfolio.
As AoB said, I would sincerely look at alternatives to the large art college programs.
As for myself, I'm a graphic designer. If I'm being honest, I like it, but not nearly as much as I thought I would as a student. If I had my college years to do over again, I don't think I would make the same decisions.
Stallone wrote the movie, and insisted he be cast as the lead if he was going to sell the script
It does show though that no matter how old you are, if you have a dream, it's theoretically always attainable - if you WORK for it. Stallone wrote that script himself and sold himself enough to get that title role, creating the star that he is.
In this case, you have to put in a whole lot of work to produce enough quality art that you can convince someone that you're worth hiring. You can pay enormous amounts of money to maybe learn how to do that by going to college, or you can learn on your own. Personally, I'd say learn on your own, at least for a while. With the resources available on the internet nowadays, I feel like someone can learn almost anything relatively well for free. It won't be easy, and many others with your same dream/ambition will fail, but if you don't want to be one of them... work harder at it.
If a portfolio attached to such a resume showed promise, I might be more willing to take a risk on your lack of experience because it suggests (to me) that you can handle your own shit, but you know your limits and aren't afraid to ask for help.
I graduated from that same college a few years ago, and have been working professionally as an artist for the past "almost 3" years. This same story can happen to anybody, and while this might not've been the above poster's intent, I just wanted to point out that going to this school is not a death sentence for your career. Many, many students that go to art colleges end up in this same situation. SCAD may be slightly higher than other schools in "students that end up with lots of debt and no career" purely from the result of not requiring a portfolio to be accepted into a program. This means that while other colleges might end up weeding out the applicants that show the least amount of skill out of their applicant pool....SCAD does not, and so they end up with a wider range of abilities in their freshman/transfer students.
I saw a huge range of artistic skill while I was there. I met a number of extremely talented students (that went on to become very, very successful) and I also saw a few students that were about to graduate and had remedial drawing skills at best. I'm sure many of those students ended up like the above poster's friend.
While I really do feel like people should follow art if that's what they want to do.....investing in a 4-year college to receive a degree is a specific case where I'd suggest a lot of caution. If art college was cheaper (much cheaper) this would be a moot issue.
The most successful students I saw were those that started college with an already above-average amount of skill. College can certainly help you get better, but 90% of you "getting better" will involve your own effort, going above and beyond what the project calls for, doing your own work outside of the classroom, understanding how to accept critiques and critique yourself, and pushing forward without ever becoming complacent in your abilities. It's a lot of work. Because this can be achieved without the expense of going to college (but can be achieved through other methods posters listed above, like ateliers)...and because art is a special area where your portfolio is more important than having any degree at all...I'd suggest you take those other options into serious consideration.
College was fun, I loved the people and professors I met, but I didn't learn as much as I wanted to, and even though I received a large scholarship, I still ended up owing a lot of dolla-bills. I think an atelier would've been a better choice for me and my goals, and would've been cheaper. I had other reasons why I ended up going to college regardless, but if those other options had been available to me at the time, you'd better believe that's the route I would've taken instead.
Good luck!
And he started working within 3 years.