My Amazon copy shipped last night. Amazon has never failed to get me a game on release day, though it sucks that the UPS driver doesn't hit my part of town till late afternoon. I usually end up getting the game around 5-6pm.
The criticism of GTA's unsupported moral/political/ethical ugliness reminds me of Kane & Lynch 2 and Jeff Gerstmann's infamous review where he referred to it being an "ugly, ugly game" in many aspects. The internet didn't seem to have a problem with that type of criticism then, but maybe we were all too distracted by his firing.
Also it wasn't a beloved franchise...which apparently causes some people to weep tears of joy o_O
Egos on
0
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Royal Mail finally acknowledges my tracking number! I'm on an overnight coach from Scotsland, shall be home in the wee hours of the morrow. Wonder if I'll get much sleep before it arrives
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
Not buying the game isn't the only way to force a fix. Rockstar could just take the initiative and make the daring move to portray women as something other than sex objects.
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Not buying the game isn't the only way to force a fix. Rockstar could just take the initiative and make the daring move to portray women as something other than sex objects.
Unless they think doing that will lose them money. Money is what drives everything. Even if they hate all women and don't give a shit and their dream is to shit on women through their video game, if you were to convince 80% of the people that have this game preordered right now to cancel it and refuse to buy it and send them a letter explaining why, you'll get your changes. Money runs the world.
The criticism of GTA's unsupported moral/political/ethical ugliness reminds me of Kane & Lynch 2 and Jeff Gerstmann's infamous review where he referred to it being an "ugly, ugly game" in many aspects. The internet didn't seem to have a problem with that type of criticism then, but maybe we were all too distracted by his firing.
In a way, I'm happy to wait for a PC version and a price drop. I like GTA for what it is, but it is not a perfect game, or a perfect series. I think at the end of the day though, the thing that comes to mind most when it comes to GTA's female characters is, "missed opportunity."
I like the fact that the narrative has been split between three characters, and in Adam's Sessler's review he said this really benefits the game's story. I like the fact that this is a heist movie gangster action game. I like that it has a crazy indepth realistic world with tons to do. But being a good game doesn't mean you can't criticism its bad aspects.
manwiththemachinegun on
0
FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Looking forward to next year's Saints Row: Reskin, and the one after that, and that, and that. Low effort for profit, baby.
Amazon is still shipping to carrier? I don't know what that means, but they promise it will be here by 8pm tomorrow. That's good enough for me. Usually my packages arrive around 2pm. I know this because I often get a knock at the door right when I'm in the shower getting ready for work. :P
Anyway, it leaves me plenty of time to mow the lawn, maybe get a flu shot, stock up on oven pizza and Mountain Dew. Tomorrow is going to be a big day.
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Looking forward to next year's Saints Row: Reskin, and the one after that, and that, and that. Low effort for profit, baby.
I really wish the suits in SR looked better and that you could change one's height (though I don't know if they changed this in the last installment..I assume not?). Minor pet peeve.
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Looking forward to next year's Saints Row: Reskin, and the one after that, and that, and that. Low effort for profit, baby.
I'm going to excuse this as a lame attempt to be sarcastic. Saints Row 4 is a fantastic game.
+2
FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
I think people are throwing around misogyny with too much abandon. For the game to be misogynistic it needs to imply some very real hatred of women, which would in turn imply the developers themselves hate women. Which I do not get at all. I will say the Rockstar doesn't have a very high opinion of American society, and that opinion comes out in the charecterization of the ambiance in the game. The characters that are of any import themselves are entirely different.
Anyone not a main character get's this treatment, and it's not limited on a gender basis. The main characters themselves (at the nearly halfway point) are not in any way shape or form sterling examples of humanity. The women you interact with: Mike's wife, Franklin's aunt, etc - they are caricatures of behaviors the developers are seeing in American society. . .as are the male characters you interact with.
I could see this complaint of misogyny if this were a male power fantasy simulator. . .it's not. In the slightest (it would be nice though if there were female police). Could there have been a female protaganist. Probably. Might have been a more interesting game. However I think the label being lobbed is a bit much.
I haven't played GTA5 nor have I watched any of the footage, so instead I will limit my observations to GTA4. Which was also a pretty misogynistic game. Women in GTA games are not treated as anything but punchlines or sex objects, and it permeates at every level. The story is lacking in complex portrayals of women, the gameplay only portrays them as hookers, strippers, or bystanders. The entertainment content (radio, the fake internet, etc.) is filled with sexist jokes.
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Looking forward to next year's Saints Row: Reskin, and the one after that, and that, and that. Low effort for profit, baby.
I'm going to excuse this as a lame attempt to be sarcastic. Saints Row 4 is a fantastic game.
It totally is, which is why I can't wait for Saints Row 2k14. I wonder what color filter they'll put over Steelport this time? Maybe there will be underwater super powers, too.
I really enjoyed SR when it was serious plot (as these thing go) and wacky hijinks on the side. Now GTA5 is that, and SR is a little too far into parody for me. Played the hell out of SR 2 tho, way more than any GTA game to date. What I've read makes me believe that the next SR game will be a reboot, no idea on the super powers thing.
I really enjoyed SR when it was serious plot (as these thing go) and wacky hijinks on the side. Now GTA5 is that, and SR is a little too far into parody for me. Played the hell out of SR 2 tho, way more than any GTA game to date. What I've read makes me believe that the next SR game will be a reboot, no idea on the super powers thing.
This guy gets it. Take yourself seriously and let the sillyness come in the margins. In Rush Hour Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan took everything seriously, so when funny things happened, they were funnier. That's why I loved Saints Row 2, because even though there was a lot of stupid shit, the plot was pretty compelling and well written and grounded in a somewhat realistic hyper-reality.
Not buying the game isn't the only way to force a fix. Rockstar could just take the initiative and make the daring move to portray women as something other than sex objects.
Unless they think doing that will lose them money. Money is what drives everything. Even if they hate all women and don't give a shit and their dream is to shit on women through their video game, if you were to convince 80% of the people that have this game preordered right now to cancel it and refuse to buy it and send them a letter explaining why, you'll get your changes. Money runs the world.
So in a video game containing uncensored topless women that's the latest in a series that has been described as "murder simulators" and also includes scathing political critiques... you think that not being misogynistic would be the bridge too far?
In this scenario, Rockstar is obviously not concerned with appealing to the widest demographic. So why worry if they offend a few more people?
Conversely, let's say that GTA is an edgy series that's always pushing the envelope. Why not take the daring steps of having strong female characters?
The logical argument against is that some asshole will post a video of themselves playing as a woman and doing really horrible things like getting themselves beaten or shot and give it a lot of LOLZ. It's better to avoid the conversation than to deal with the fall out of attempting it.
The logical argument against is that some asshole will post a video of themselves playing as a woman and doing really horrible things like getting themselves beaten or shot and give it a lot of LOLZ. It's better to avoid the conversation than to deal with the fall out of attempting it.
That assumes that this would be the first open world game with a female protagonist. It is not.
The logical argument against is that some asshole will post a video of themselves playing as a woman and doing really horrible things like getting themselves beaten or shot and give it a lot of LOLZ. It's better to avoid the conversation than to deal with the fall out of attempting it.
That reminds me of the argument against having female characters in CoD:Ghosts because 'people will be mad that you can kill women'. I found it pretty dumb in that regard and I haven't changed my mind.
I can't believe I'm waking up tomorrow to play this awesome game:). A couple weeks ago I didn't even realize it was coming out and never thought much of it then about a week ago I really got into the idea of playing this game. Have fun you all:).
The logical argument against is that some asshole will post a video of themselves playing as a woman and doing really horrible things like getting themselves beaten or shot and give it a lot of LOLZ. It's better to avoid the conversation than to deal with the fall out of attempting it.
That reminds me of the argument against having female characters in CoD:Ghosts because 'people will be mad that you can kill women'. I found it pretty dumb in that regard and I haven't changed my mind.
I agree it's dumb, but its also true? Don't get me wrong obviously having female characters in games is a good idea, but the problem is that you can't have a 'strong female character' that is wonderful at everything and has no flaws, because that would be boring. Therefore you would need to give this character flaws, issues, problems, weaknesses, because we ALL have weaknesses and flaws and foibles. I fear for the backlash from a gaming community that barely handled the ending of a game like Mass Effect 3 without collectively losing their shit, can't understand that, yeah, violent video-games can be imitated by kids in the same way children sometimes jump of their roof trying to be Superman, and for some reason don't understand that annoying elements in a game, like the NPC conversations and 'being called up' mechanics in GTA IV were super immersive and splendidly written, instead opting to deride them without experiencing them first.
The problem with nebulous concepts like racism and sexism and genderism is that it's possible to find it in anything, and all you need is one person declaring bullshit to start a troll war and ruin the reputation of a company who genuinely meant well. When one of the Penny Arcade dudes expressed genuine-but-not-angry confusion about transgendered people - people jumped down his throat so fast it was like reverse Bulimia for crying out out.
I'm not saying its right, but I'm saying with the internet being the way it is, GAMERS being they way they are, MEDIA being the way it is, I don't blame Rockstar or any other dev for simply avoiding the issue entirely simply because it'll be impossible to handle it without causing mass outrage because everyone loves being outraged.
Uh, I don't think anyone is asking for a female character that is "wonderful at everything and has no flaws". Just like, one that's treated as more than an object or a punchline? Perhaps has some motivations and agency, even?
The logical argument against is that some asshole will post a video of themselves playing as a woman and doing really horrible things like getting themselves beaten or shot and give it a lot of LOLZ. It's better to avoid the conversation than to deal with the fall out of attempting it.
That reminds me of the argument against having female characters in CoD:Ghosts because 'people will be mad that you can kill women'. I found it pretty dumb in that regard and I haven't changed my mind.
I agree it's dumb, but its also true? Don't get me wrong obviously having female characters in games is a good idea, but the problem is that you can't have a 'strong female character' that is wonderful at everything and has no flaws, because that would be boring. Therefore you would need to give this character flaws, issues, problems, weaknesses, because we ALL have weaknesses and flaws and foibles. I fear for the backlash from a gaming community that barely handled the ending of a game like Mass Effect 3 without collectively losing their shit, can't understand that, yeah, violent video-games can be imitated by kids in the same way children sometimes jump of their roof trying to be Superman, and for some reason don't understand that annoying elements in a game, like the NPC conversations and 'being called up' mechanics in GTA IV were super immersive and splendidly written, instead opting to deride them without experiencing them first.
The problem with nebulous concepts like racism and sexism and genderism is that it's possible to find it in anything, and all you need is one person declaring bullshit to start a troll war and ruin the reputation of a company who genuinely meant well. When one of the Penny Arcade dudes expressed genuine-but-not-angry confusion about transgendered people - people jumped down his throat so fast it was like reverse Bulimia for crying out out.
I'm not saying its right, but I'm saying with the internet being the way it is, GAMERS being they way they are, MEDIA being the way it is, I don't blame Rockstar or any other dev for simply avoiding the issue entirely simply because it'll be impossible to handle it without causing mass outrage because everyone loves being outraged.
Strong female characters doesn't mean having a Mary Sue. A Jackie Brown type character would fit right into GTA's degenerate world.
The thing is, there ARE female characters who can be hired for heists. Which makes me think hireable goons for missions are either disposable, or just aren't fleshed out very well in comparison to "plot" characters.
I agree it's dumb, but its also true? Don't get me wrong obviously having female characters in games is a good idea, but the problem is that you can't have a 'strong female character' that is wonderful at everything and has no flaws, because that would be boring. Therefore you would need to give this character flaws, issues, problems, weaknesses, because we ALL have weaknesses and flaws and foibles. I fear for the backlash from a gaming community that barely handled the ending of a game like Mass Effect 3 without collectively losing their shit, can't understand that, yeah, violent video-games can be imitated by kids in the same way children sometimes jump of their roof trying to be Superman, and for some reason don't understand that annoying elements in a game, like the NPC conversations and 'being called up' mechanics in GTA IV were super immersive and splendidly written, instead opting to deride them without experiencing them first.
And I think that 'maintain the status quo because otherwise people might complain' is a pretty bad reason to continue to marginalize people.
Uh, I don't think anyone is asking for a female character that is "wonderful at everything and has no flaws". Just like, one that's treated as more than an object or a punchline? Perhaps has some motivations and agency, even?
I don't think you're able to speak for everyone. Like I said all it takes is one person to cry fowl, one website to post it to bait hits, and you're off to the "GAME <X> IS SEXIST" races.
Oh good. #1reasonwhy talk gets to shit up yet another thread. Great effort and points, poor execution every single time by the same crowd. You points will never be addressed when you're nothing but a bother to everyone you try to interact with.
Uh, I don't think anyone is asking for a female character that is "wonderful at everything and has no flaws". Just like, one that's treated as more than an object or a punchline? Perhaps has some motivations and agency, even?
I don't think you're able to speak for everyone. Like I said all it takes is one person to cry fowl, one website to post it to bait hits, and you're off to the "GAME <X> IS SEXIST" races.
So which is worse, 'Game X is sexist for not including worthwhile female characters' or 'Game X is sexist for letting you be mean to women'?
If you're gonna get called sexists either way, why not go the road of being more inclusive?
Anyone that says Saints Row IV is anything like Saints Row 3 outside of sharing the universe is a crazy person
Hell, the two games are practically different genres, and the fact that it's the same city is a moot point since you should rarely see it at street level anyways
All the gameplay enhancements they made are more than a fucking color filter. Get real.
+1
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
So wait...are we having a discussion about misogyny in games, and giving Saint's Row a complete pass because it's "satire"? Have you people played Saint's Row? There's one "strong female character" and in and of herself she's the caricature of the slighted lover. The rest are strippers who you can beat to death with a giant purple fucking dildo.
These are why these sorts of conversations are so silly. Everyone brings in their own personal bias and gives whatever their pet game is a complete pass for the same behavior they are rallying against.
I love Saint's Row, but this idea that you're not buying GTA5 because "misogyny", while in the same breath talking up Saint's Row is laughable and goosey.
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Fly, game! Fly like the wind!
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
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Situation excellent. I am attacking.
- General Ferdinand Foch
This is true, but this is every GTA game. The GTA games make unbelievable amounts of money, this may be one of the most successful games of all time.
I'm on your side for the most part, but economically, do you expect much different? The only way to fix this is to let them know how you feel and refuse to buy their products, but they'll continue selling like crazy, and they'll have to ask themselves if the potential sales lost from women or males who are bothered by this are greater than the potential sales lost by changing the basic structure of their games. If they are confident that they are losing a million sales to people offended by misogynism, but they think they'd lose far more if they stopped catering to the males that enjoy hating all women (assuming this was what is really the case, it isn't though) they'd be unlikely to change it anyway.
It's great to discuss it and all that but business is business and money is money, and it'll always dictate how these things work. Until women/menwhocare gamers are a big enough force to really hurt them economically, I don't think you'll see this change.
That said, I'm going to enjoy this game and laugh at the sexist jokes and people can hate me but I don't see the issue with laughing at some jokes without taking it seriously or letting it somehow change how I perceive women. I don't see it as much different than going to a comedy club and hearing all sorts of racist/sexist etc jokes.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
I do not plan to buy GTA5. As far as I'm concerned, SR4 has eaten their lunch.
Unless they think doing that will lose them money. Money is what drives everything. Even if they hate all women and don't give a shit and their dream is to shit on women through their video game, if you were to convince 80% of the people that have this game preordered right now to cancel it and refuse to buy it and send them a letter explaining why, you'll get your changes. Money runs the world.
In a way, I'm happy to wait for a PC version and a price drop. I like GTA for what it is, but it is not a perfect game, or a perfect series. I think at the end of the day though, the thing that comes to mind most when it comes to GTA's female characters is, "missed opportunity."
I like the fact that the narrative has been split between three characters, and in Adam's Sessler's review he said this really benefits the game's story. I like the fact that this is a heist movie gangster action game. I like that it has a crazy indepth realistic world with tons to do. But being a good game doesn't mean you can't criticism its bad aspects.
Looking forward to next year's Saints Row: Reskin, and the one after that, and that, and that. Low effort for profit, baby.
Anyway, it leaves me plenty of time to mow the lawn, maybe get a flu shot, stock up on oven pizza and Mountain Dew. Tomorrow is going to be a big day.
I really wish the suits in SR looked better and that you could change one's height (though I don't know if they changed this in the last installment..I assume not?). Minor pet peeve.
The suits in SR are just godawful...though
I'm going to excuse this as a lame attempt to be sarcastic. Saints Row 4 is a fantastic game.
It totally is, which is why I can't wait for Saints Row 2k14. I wonder what color filter they'll put over Steelport this time? Maybe there will be underwater super powers, too.
This guy gets it. Take yourself seriously and let the sillyness come in the margins. In Rush Hour Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan took everything seriously, so when funny things happened, they were funnier. That's why I loved Saints Row 2, because even though there was a lot of stupid shit, the plot was pretty compelling and well written and grounded in a somewhat realistic hyper-reality.
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
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My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
An open world make your own hero game wouldn't be a bad way for them to go if they're ditching the serious thing entirely.
In this scenario, Rockstar is obviously not concerned with appealing to the widest demographic. So why worry if they offend a few more people?
Conversely, let's say that GTA is an edgy series that's always pushing the envelope. Why not take the daring steps of having strong female characters?
There isn't a logical argument against it.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
That assumes that this would be the first open world game with a female protagonist. It is not.
I agree it's dumb, but its also true? Don't get me wrong obviously having female characters in games is a good idea, but the problem is that you can't have a 'strong female character' that is wonderful at everything and has no flaws, because that would be boring. Therefore you would need to give this character flaws, issues, problems, weaknesses, because we ALL have weaknesses and flaws and foibles. I fear for the backlash from a gaming community that barely handled the ending of a game like Mass Effect 3 without collectively losing their shit, can't understand that, yeah, violent video-games can be imitated by kids in the same way children sometimes jump of their roof trying to be Superman, and for some reason don't understand that annoying elements in a game, like the NPC conversations and 'being called up' mechanics in GTA IV were super immersive and splendidly written, instead opting to deride them without experiencing them first.
The problem with nebulous concepts like racism and sexism and genderism is that it's possible to find it in anything, and all you need is one person declaring bullshit to start a troll war and ruin the reputation of a company who genuinely meant well. When one of the Penny Arcade dudes expressed genuine-but-not-angry confusion about transgendered people - people jumped down his throat so fast it was like reverse Bulimia for crying out out.
I'm not saying its right, but I'm saying with the internet being the way it is, GAMERS being they way they are, MEDIA being the way it is, I don't blame Rockstar or any other dev for simply avoiding the issue entirely simply because it'll be impossible to handle it without causing mass outrage because everyone loves being outraged.
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
Strong female characters doesn't mean having a Mary Sue. A Jackie Brown type character would fit right into GTA's degenerate world.
The thing is, there ARE female characters who can be hired for heists. Which makes me think hireable goons for missions are either disposable, or just aren't fleshed out very well in comparison to "plot" characters.
I don't think you're able to speak for everyone. Like I said all it takes is one person to cry fowl, one website to post it to bait hits, and you're off to the "GAME <X> IS SEXIST" races.
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
If you're gonna get called sexists either way, why not go the road of being more inclusive?
Hell, the two games are practically different genres, and the fact that it's the same city is a moot point since you should rarely see it at street level anyways
All the gameplay enhancements they made are more than a fucking color filter. Get real.
These are why these sorts of conversations are so silly. Everyone brings in their own personal bias and gives whatever their pet game is a complete pass for the same behavior they are rallying against.
I love Saint's Row, but this idea that you're not buying GTA5 because "misogyny", while in the same breath talking up Saint's Row is laughable and goosey.