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[Industry] And with strange fiscal quarters, even death is doomed.

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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    I really think it's possible DmC would have sold a lot better if it weren't for that shittacular, grimdark, anorexic emo 40-year-old game designer Dante reveal trailer.

    And I'm still looking for conformation that the dude who made himself Dante got yanked from being director in favor of a Japanese guy at Capcom, because that's sure what it's looking like.

    DmC was a great fucking game and I will cut anyone who says differently

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    LanrutconLanrutcon The LabyrinthRegistered User regular
    SirUltimos wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    Because they've never really been the kind of company to money hat a company for a game. Let alone a game that exists almost everywhere else.

    And maybe that's why they're selling a whole 30,000 units of their console a month.

    Probably. But do you think money hatting Minecraft will push units?
    I really, honestly do. I honestly think that getting Minecraft onto the Wii U will push more than absolutely any other game they could possibly release.

    Except Pokemon.

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    fearsomepiratefearsomepirate I ate a pickle once. Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    The original Wii audience doesn't exist anymore. You either bought a Wii because you were going to anyway because you love Nintendos first party titles, or you were suckered in by the motion control fad. There's no fad this time.
    Wii Sports Resort was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. Wii Fit Plus was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. NSMB was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. That's not fad behavior. Sales fell off when Nintendo stopped supporting the market with software and turned its focus to the 3DS.

    The gaming press narrative is, like nearly every gaming press narrative, completely disconnected from facts.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    It really does sound like Capcom listened to the outcry from the reveal trailer and made the game better. Or at least less grimdark. Yay for taking feedback into account.

    But so many people's minds were made up by that awful trailer it didn't make any difference.

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    DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Well...looking back on those two.

    DmC was actually a pretty good game. But it was kind of the victim of fan backlash and bad marketing. Shame really.

    RE6...had problems...a lot. Its basically like they don't know what to do with the series ever since Mikami left. If anything they should be glad it sold that much.

    Then you got Lost Planet 3 which is doing horribly.

    Honestly, at this point I think it might be time for these Japanese devs to stop trying to ape the content of Western games and go back to doing their own thing.

    It may be a suda51 thing, but he sells also like 10-15k copies of his games in release week. Reviews (of the good ones) basically state "This is why we can't have nice things you monsters".

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I do not believe the gaming populous at large is smart enough to intentionally sabotage a game. Not to the extent people seem to think happened with DMC.

    Occam's razor, folks. People took a brief look at the game, thought it looked dumb, and spent their money on something else. It may not be fair, but the industry isn't fair.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    I really think it's possible DmC would have sold a lot better if it weren't for that shittacular, grimdark, anorexic emo 40-year-old game designer Dante reveal trailer.

    And I'm still looking for conformation that the dude who made himself Dante got yanked from being director in favor of a Japanese guy at Capcom, because that's sure what it's looking like.

    what

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Well I mean, was Devil May Cry ever a blockbuster franchise to begin with?

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Yeah, DMC4 was the biggest and it on did around 2 mil.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Well I mean, was Devil May Cry ever a blockbuster franchise to begin with?

    I think it was. In the sense that it was a well-established franchise of three games, and the middle one was truly horrifically shitty and one of Namco's occasional crimes against video game entertainment.

    By the time DMC4 came around, as the first current-gen entry (PS3, Xbox 360, PC), on the heels of DMC3's success, the series was about as prestigious as it was ever going to be.

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    AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Even selling 1.2 million copies Capcom still made a fuck ton of money on DMC. They may have predicted more but it's not like they lost their ass, that game couldn't have cost more than 10 million to make (not counting marketing).

    Not every game is a 50 million dollar money sink, there's only a handful of titles a year that even come close to that figure. The rest are made on moderate (comparatively) budgets that still see a ton of profit at the end of the day.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    I really think it's possible DmC would have sold a lot better if it weren't for that shittacular, grimdark, anorexic emo 40-year-old game designer Dante reveal trailer.

    And I'm still looking for conformation that the dude who made himself Dante got yanked from being director in favor of a Japanese guy at Capcom, because that's sure what it's looking like.

    what

    Well, this May 2012 article identifies Tameem Antoniades as director.

    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/339193/dmc-director-didnt-ask-the-designers-to-make-dante-look-like-him/

    But this November 2012 article identifies Hideaki Itsuno as director.

    http://www.joystiq.com/2012/11/05/why-dmc-runs-30-fps-on-consoles-according-to-capcom/

    I can't find anything showing Itsuno was involved with DmC around the time it was announced.

    Edit: @allforce, that isn't necessarily a safe assumption to make. The thing was marketed to the gills, and the content of the game itself suggests a lot of money was put into it.

    cloudeagle on
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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    I do not believe the gaming populous at large is smart enough to intentionally sabotage a game. Not to the extent people seem to think happened with DMC.

    Occam's razor, folks. People took a brief look at the game, thought it looked dumb, and spent their money on something else. It may not be fair, but the industry isn't fair.

    Let's be honest, DMC has always been incredibly dumb

    As have most Capcom games

    Doesn't mean they're bad games

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    I do not believe the gaming populous at large is smart enough to intentionally sabotage a game. Not to the extent people seem to think happened with DMC.

    Occam's razor, folks. People took a brief look at the game, thought it looked dumb, and spent their money on something else. It may not be fair, but the industry isn't fair.

    Let's be honest, DMC has always been incredibly dumb

    As have most Capcom games

    Doesn't mean they're bad games

    It's easy to cross that line between "Capcom stupid" and "Just stupid."

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    urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    Was there a demo for DmC? Either way it's a damn shame that DmC is looked down upon. That game was a hell of a lot of fun.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    Was there a demo for DmC? Either way it's a damn shame that DmC is looked down upon. That game was a hell of a lot of fun.

    Definitely was. Had at least one general level, and a boss battle.

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    Mego ThorMego Thor "I say thee...NAY!" Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    There was. I remember it being ok, but not run-out-and-buy good.

    Mego Thor on
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    BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Its just the common formula of niche genre work + desire for wider audience = change in attitude. Sometimes it pays off, and the product finds a wider audience, making the company a gorillion dollars (Star Trek remakes, the new Tomb Raider, new Deus Ex, new XCOM) and sometimes they alienate the genre fans and have nothing left to show for it. Even if the basic skeleton stays the same, if you don't make it through the breach to the wider audience, then you can very easily salt the earth of that property for good. In Capcom's defense, this is pretty much the MO of every major product now-a-days. Although some times I feel like they have WHAT WOULD CALL OF DUTY DO? emblazoned in 20 foot tall letters in every developer and corporate office.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Hey, we're only JUST getting Square Enix to change their wording from "these games were miserable commercial failures" to "these games were CRITICAL DARLINGS AND MISERABLE COMMERCIAL FAILURES".

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Oh, during the NPDs Nintendo dropped a big pile o' numbers.

    Nintendo August Sales (Digital + Physical):
    Mario & Luigi: Dream Team: 190,000
    Pikmin 3: 115,000

    Nintendo Wii U LTD (Digital + Physical):
    New Super Luigi U: 120,000

    Nintendo 2013 3DS LTDs (Digital + Physical):
    Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon (863,000)
    Animal Crossing: New Leaf (739,000)
    New Super Mario Bros. 2 (406,000 in 2013, 1.85 million total)
    Fire Emblem Awakening (390,000)
    Mario Kart 7 (352,000 in 2013, 2.84 million total)
    Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity (298,000)
    Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D (268,000)
    Super Mario 3D Land (265,000 in 2013, 2.86 million total)
    LEGO City Undercover: The Chase Begins (264,000)

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Although some times I feel like they have WHAT WOULD CALL OF DUTY DO? emblazoned in 20 foot tall letters in every developer and corporate office.

    I don't recall a Russian invasion in DmC.

    Wikipedia should answer this.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    The original Wii audience doesn't exist anymore. You either bought a Wii because you were going to anyway because you love Nintendos first party titles, or you were suckered in by the motion control fad. There's no fad this time.
    Wii Sports Resort was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. Wii Fit Plus was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. NSMB was a huge seller and came out three years after launch. That's not fad behavior. Sales fell off when Nintendo stopped supporting the market with software and turned its focus to the 3DS.

    The gaming press narrative is, like nearly every gaming press narrative, completely disconnected from facts.

    And Playstation Move and Kinect didn't show up until 4 years after the Wii's launch. Motion controls, like 3D were a fad. It doesn't mean that some people won't always like them, but it does mean that the populace at large was enamored by it for a time being but then moved on.

    Nintendo can't latch onto that initial run of success with the Wii because there's nothing there to latch onto anymore.

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    BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Yeah I was cautious about including DX/TR. From my point of view, they did about as well as you'd expect while remaining fairly true to their originals and bringing something new to the table. The problem is they're chained to a 300 pound gorilla with a nasty coke habit.

    I'm sure there's better examples. Especially outside the sphere of gaming. I think the better examples in games are successful revivals of near dead genre games, rather than combining the magic formulas together to create a mighty blockbuster like in the case of the new Star Trek films.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    At least we got the Capcom exec who said, essentially, "all right already, we'll make Resident Evil 7 a more traditional survival horror thing again."

    It really is fascinating how much of an expensive, bloated mess RE6 was.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Honestly, I really hope that more traditional survival horror games make a comeback next gen.

    I think the issue with survival horror games isn't so much that they're dead, its just that mechanically most of them are still in the 90s.

    Basically, it would be great if a game could capture that essence of fear without being shit to actually play.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Honestly, I really hope that more traditional survival horror games make a comeback next gen.

    I think the issue with survival horror games isn't so much that they're dead, its just that mechanically most of them are still in the 90s.

    Basically, it would be great if a game could capture that essence of fear without being shit to actually play.

    Funny enough, RE6 actually made an effort to advance mechanically with new controls and mediocre (as oppose to shitty) AI. With those controls, the pacing and abilities of it as an third-person shooter finally caught up to, and then passed by, Dead Space. Of course, it had many other issues to contend with (like RE5, unsurprisingly), but with Capcom's industry-ridiculous expectations, 4.9 million is still a lot of units. Especially given how much it alienated people wanting another spin on RE4 (and the same controls and environments).

    DmC on the other hand...

    Synthesis on
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    BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    I definitely think that survival horror is on the cusp of a resurgence, aided in large part by the release of Oculus Rift. Stuff like Routine and Outlast and few others on their way. Its a genre that fits nicely into the indie realm because it doesn't need to have super high production values (in the sense of quantity) to be successful.


    BTW I love this thread and I am super glad its back.

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Honestly, I really hope that more traditional survival horror games make a comeback next gen.

    I think the issue with survival horror games isn't so much that they're dead, its just that mechanically most of them are still in the 90s.

    Basically, it would be great if a game could capture that essence of fear without being shit to actually play.

    This.

    The thing I'm thinking of is how tons of people playing System Shock 2 had great moments when something startled them and they shot at a bunch of shadows...but then probably reloaded because YOU MUST CONSERVE EVERY BULLET!

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    ...That's the thing though.

    RE6 tried for new controls but not only were they janky, but in a way I felt they kind of took away from the survival horror feel of the game.

    I look at RE6 as one big experiment. The problem is do you want to be experimenting that much on one of your company's biggest money makers.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    ...That's the thing though.

    RE6 tried for new controls but not only were they janky, but in a way I felt they kind of took away from the survival horror feel of the game.

    I look at RE6 as one big experiment. The problem is do you want to be experimenting that much on one of your company's biggest money makers.

    If you can still get 4.9 million units sold from Capcom that doesn't have 'Street Fighter' in title, it may be the one high-budget area you can experiment and not tank completely. If not there, give up experimenting at all.

    Then again, Street Fighter X Tekken tanked as well.

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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    ...That's the thing though.

    RE6 tried for new controls but not only were they janky, but in a way I felt they kind of took away from the survival horror feel of the game.

    I look at RE6 as one big experiment. The problem is do you want to be experimenting that much on one of your company's biggest money makers.

    Right. The controls in RE6 played like a slower, clunkier Call of Duty, and outside of Leon's campaign the "horror" bit was completely destroyed in favor of "here's a random monster! Duck behind a chest-high wall and shoot it!"

    Everyone wants to be Call of Duty.

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    urahonkyurahonky Cynical Old Man Registered User regular
    I definitely think that survival horror is on the cusp of a resurgence, aided in large part by the release of Oculus Rift. Stuff like Routine and Outlast and few others on their way. Its a genre that fits nicely into the indie realm because it doesn't need to have super high production values (in the sense of quantity) to be successful.


    BTW I love this thread and I am super glad its back.

    I feel like the Rift will only bring us "surprise scare" games. You know those games where you're just walking along... and then BAM LOUD NOISE SOMETHING IN FRONT OF YOU AND NOW IT'S GONE OMG WHERE DID IT GO!?!"

    Just like Hollywood horror movies are right now.

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    SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    ...That's the thing though.

    RE6 tried for new controls but not only were they janky, but in a way I felt they kind of took away from the survival horror feel of the game.

    I look at RE6 as one big experiment. The problem is do you want to be experimenting that much on one of your company's biggest money makers.

    Right. The controls in RE6 played like a slower, clunkier Call of Duty, and outside of Leon's campaign the "horror" bit was completely destroyed in favor of "here's a random monster! Duck behind a chest-high wall and shoot it!"

    Everyone wants to be Call of Duty.

    Given how I feel about CoD, even I have a hard time blaming them if the alternative is "Third-Person Tank Shooter." It's hard to look forward to AI routines of "slowly walk forward in a line" and win/loss QTE.

    Synthesis on
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    AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    You don't think the OR could add a level of immersion and dread to the genre outside of a monster jumping out of a closet? I think that's selling the concept of the device a bit short.

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    lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    Even selling 1.2 million copies Capcom still made a fuck ton of money on DMC. They may have predicted more but it's not like they lost their ass, that game couldn't have cost more than 10 million to make (not counting marketing).

    Not every game is a 50 million dollar money sink, there's only a handful of titles a year that even come close to that figure. The rest are made on moderate (comparatively) budgets that still see a ton of profit at the end of the day.

    No one is making fucktons of money on HD retail titles that sell 1.2 million copies. If they were then people wouldn't be so worried about the industries financial health.

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    AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    The industry is chugging along making billions a year. You can bet your ass they made a nice profit on DMC sales, and they would have with 600k copies sold as well.

    Not every game is GTAV with a 100 million dollar budget. Most games can (and are) made on reasonable budgets and turn a major profit for the publisher.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited September 2013
    I think the problem with arguing about gaming budgets.

    Is that we don't know the development/marketing budget of most games so we really don't have a leg to stand on.

    Dragkonias on
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    JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    Even selling 1.2 million copies Capcom still made a fuck ton of money on DMC. They may have predicted more but it's not like they lost their ass, that game couldn't have cost more than 10 million to make (not counting marketing).

    Not every game is a 50 million dollar money sink, there's only a handful of titles a year that even come close to that figure. The rest are made on moderate (comparatively) budgets that still see a ton of profit at the end of the day.

    No one is making fucktons of money on HD retail titles that sell 1.2 million copies. If they were then people wouldn't be so worried about the industries financial health.
    This is why I'm going to be watching the performance of the UbiArt games so closely. The industry needs those niche titles, and it's just not viable to expect huge sales from them.

    It looks like we're finally seeing the tos become available to make niche games look up to modern standards without requiring insane sales. I hope Child of Light sells 250-500k, which would be huge for a 2D sidescrollin JRPG, and even more importantly I hope that nets Ubi a nice profit.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Child of Light sounds like such an awesome concept. I hope it does well.

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    cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Do we even have any sort of sales figures for DMC? I heard it didn't do well, not that it "totes made profit"

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