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[Phalla]: Enemy Unknown -- OPERATION: DEVIL'S MOON Complete!

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Posts

  • MegafrostMegafrost Leader of the Decepticons Registered User regular
    vertroue wrote: »
    So...me not facechecking was a good plan....bawahahahahha

    You really should have.

    At least, I think so.

  • undergroundmonorailundergroundmonorail single-track subway Registered User regular
    Day 0 I sent out three random PMs to people who's usernames I recognized, hoping to maybe find someone attempting to get a network going.

    Kime and Obi responded. The Anonymous did not.

    And now you know why I voted for him. :rotate:

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  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Regarding the win condition, it was only misleading in a very superficial way. You had this information:

    1. If orders aren't sent in for a unit, that unit defaults to Hunker Down.
    2. The sectoids are obviously mafia-controlled.

    Using this, it would have been possible to reason out that, in all likelihood, removing the mafia --> the sectoids becoming defenseless.

    I left it vague for two reasons. First, I suspected there would be discussion as to the exact nature of the mafia in early days. Especially on Day 0, nobody was sure what they were looking for. Being vague preserved this discussion. Second, I always consider the wording of a win condition to be a valuable tool in encouraging different types of gameplay. If I'd made it clear from the beginning that you didn't have to kill the sectoids manually, but could so by destroying their masters, the game would have consisted of everyone hanging around the edge of the map being boring.

    There were probably better ways I could have worded it, yes. But I don't think it was misleading in any unfair way.
    It's a moot point since future ones are not-a-phalla (TM), but in general, phallas that tell vanillagers to put themselves over the village winning are....pretty village unfriendly.

    Yes they are, but this wasn't one of those. The survival condition was explicitly secondary to the success of the mission. If I had just put 3 win cons out there and said "do these", you might have a point, but they were explicitly labeled as primary, secondary, and tertiary.

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  • The AnonymousThe Anonymous Uh, uh, uhhhhhh... Uh, uh.Registered User regular
    Day 0 I sent out three random PMs to people who's usernames I recognized, hoping to maybe find someone attempting to get a network going.

    Kime and Obi responded. The Anonymous did not.

    And now you know why I voted for him. :rotate:
    I'm lazy, so I'm likely to not respond to these things, regardless of role. It's not that I hate any of you, honestly!
    But I totally do hate all of you
    Not really, I love all of you
    But that doesn't mean I won't ever grudge you until the end of time itself

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    It's a moot point since future ones are not-a-phalla (TM), but in general, phallas that tell vanillagers to put themselves over the village winning are....pretty village unfriendly.

    Yes they are, but this wasn't one of those. The survival condition was explicitly secondary to the success of the mission. If I had just put 3 win cons out there and said "do these", you might have a point, but they were explicitly labeled as primary, secondary, and tertiary.

    Yeah, just because it's not explicitly listed as being essential to victory doesn't mean that people don't play it like an obiphalla. Like, say, Obi :bz

    Also, the generic "eliminate all threats to the village" is usually vague enough

    Spoit on
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    Gandalf_the_Crazed
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Regarding the win condition, it was only misleading in a very superficial way. You had this information:

    1. If orders aren't sent in for a unit, that unit defaults to Hunker Down.
    2. The sectoids are obviously mafia-controlled.

    Using this, it would have been possible to reason out that, in all likelihood, removing the mafia --> the sectoids becoming defenseless.

    I left it vague for two reasons. First, I suspected there would be discussion as to the exact nature of the mafia in early days. Especially on Day 0, nobody was sure what they were looking for. Being vague preserved this discussion. Second, I always consider the wording of a win condition to be a valuable tool in encouraging different types of gameplay. If I'd made it clear from the beginning that you didn't have to kill the sectoids manually, but could so by destroying their masters, the game would have consisted of everyone hanging around the edge of the map being boring.

    There were probably better ways I could have worded it, yes. But I don't think it was misleading in any unfair way.
    It's a moot point since future ones are not-a-phalla (TM), but in general, phallas that tell vanillagers to put themselves over the village winning are....pretty village unfriendly.

    Yes they are, but this wasn't one of those. The survival condition was explicitly secondary to the success of the mission. If I had just put 3 win cons out there and said "do these", you might have a point, but they were explicitly labeled as primary, secondary, and tertiary.

    I'm calling foul on this

    Win Conditions: All village-aligned players have multiple win conditions, at various levels of priority. They are as follows.

    Primary Goal: Eliminate the alien invaders and any other threats to the XCOM squad.
    Secondary Goal: Survive.
    Tertiary Goal: Attain the best kill record on this mission and/or perform the most badass or tactically risky maneuver.

    .


    "Alien Invaders" is not vague, it's specific. Like I said if you said Alien Threat you would have some credibility in your argument. But in no way were you vague.

    And making assumptions about players is very a dangerous thing.

    edit: in regards to "well if I were honest"...yeah that game should have been designed differently ;-)

    the golden rule is: you don't lie to players

    Egos on
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    It's a moot point since future ones are not-a-phalla (TM), but in general, phallas that tell vanillagers to put themselves over the village winning are....pretty village unfriendly.

    Yes they are, but this wasn't one of those. The survival condition was explicitly secondary to the success of the mission. If I had just put 3 win cons out there and said "do these", you might have a point, but they were explicitly labeled as primary, secondary, and tertiary.

    Yeah, just because it's not explicitly listed as being essential to victory doesn't mean that people don't play it like an obiphalla. Like, say, Obi :bz

    Eh, I'm inclined to put that one on Obi the players (like Obi) for playing against their win conditions by doing things like Obi did like running away at the first sign of trObile.

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    Spoit
  • undergroundmonorailundergroundmonorail single-track subway Registered User regular
    Oh, yeah, it wasn't like I thought you were mafia for sure because you didn't respond. But the only thing I knew about you was "T_A didn't respond" which was more than the "literally nothing" I had on anyone else.

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  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    OK, Egos. If I had worded the win condition in the way you wanted, what would you have done differently?

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  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    well if you just said Alien Threat vs Alien Invaders, it would have solved it. if you weren't gonna alter the design.

    Alien Invader pretty much says Invaders that are Alien. "Threat" implies something that is alien in nature but is more vague and plenty of hosts have resorted to "eliminate the threat to _____" in order not to lie to players but keep it mysterious.

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Right, I get that, I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Language is a funny thing, and I just don't see the same thing you do in the primary wincon.

    At this point, though, I'm just trying to figure out what you would have done differently if I had worded it the way you're suggesting.

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  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    well my point is threat is better than being specific in this type of situation (design wise). The question would be if I were to keep the win condition as it is , what would I do?

    In which case I'd have to think about it. The thing that comes immediately to mind seems like it might be problematic. If you were to keep it phalla.

    If you were gonna have the "Alien Invader" part still in there, what comes to mind immediately would be have the mafia actually be aliens who are linked to a specific soldier. If the host got killed then either he would transfer over to the soldier or you could have the soldier just die. Vice versa, maybe the alien gets brain freezed or some crap (not sure how that would work mechanically) for a turn. Obviously the aliens would psychically linked.

    Like I said this is if you were to keep "alien invader" and the phalla element

    Egos on
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    well my point is threat is better than being specific in this type of situation (design wise). The question would be if I were to keep the win condition as it is , what would I do?

    In which case I'd have to think about it. The thing that comes immediately to mind seems like it might be problematic.

    No, but we already know what you did with the win condition kept as it is, because...well, that's what happened.

    I mean that if I had said "alien threat", you're saying your actions and decisions this game would/could have been different, and I'm not sure I understand why that is.

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  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    I'm not saying my actions necessarily would have been different, I'm just saying it's better than what I consider as a misleading win con. I have no idea what I would have done as a player if it was just left at "threat" and everything was CD'd.

    Now if you specifically said "get rid of the alien infiltrators" , yeah you are right in terms of what I would have done likely.

    edit: and I don't think I said that's what it should have been with the way the design was set up, did I? (I'm asking if I did and I forgot)

    I don't think I said my actions would be different if it was "alien threat", I'm just saying as a host you shouldn't give misleading win cons . If you are trying to be vague, one should be.

    I think there might be more discussion about what constitutes a "threat" but other than that I don't know.

    Egos on
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    The reason everyone wanted to bug out was because of the number of aliens, not the 'we have to get a mafia a day or we're screwed'

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    Auralynx
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind when we get to the re-Phallening of this shit.

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  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    just to be clear, I'm not angry or anything. Because there were warnings about this being experimental and such and I realize this is an early outing. It's more just re-enforcing the idea when hosting.

    Gandalf_the_Crazed
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Side note: Oh my gods I'm just now realizing how much more automated my spreadsheet could have been. Not the orders processing, that all still would have been done by hand, but...automated aim rolls, damage calculations, that shit? Yeah. I never would have needed to go to random.org.

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    You could totally have automated the orders too

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  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    You could totally have automated the orders too

    Nah. Well, yes, the orders could be automated -- that is, in fact, how the computer game works. ;-)

    But I couldn't do it. My programming skills are limited to looking up functions so I can create spreadsheets. I wouldn't know where to begin making a program to automatically detect cover levels, apply damage, etc. And I sure as hell wouldn't have known how to automatically update the map.

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  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Not to necropost (and after this question, I'll post any future stuff in the CYOA discussion thread), but I had a thought about the "first come, first serve" disagreement and I wanted to run it by you guys.

    Suppose your soldier has an Initiative stat that starts at 0, but can be raised through spending XP/taking feats/having gear with Initiative boosts. Now, we still use the first come, first serve system, but...before I process orders, I go down the list and move you up the list by a number of slots equal to your Initiative.

    Would that seem like a fair compromise, for the folks who feel screwed over by time zone?

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  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Not to necropost (and after this question, I'll post any future stuff in the CYOA discussion thread), but I had a thought about the "first come, first serve" disagreement and I wanted to run it by you guys.

    Suppose your soldier has an Initiative stat that starts at 0, but can be raised through spending XP/taking feats/having gear with Initiative boosts. Now, we still use the first come, first serve system, but...before I process orders, I go down the list and move you up the list by a number of slots equal to your Initiative.

    Would that seem like a fair compromise, for the folks who feel screwed over by time zone?

    Yeah, something along those lines or the class-based fix I suggested would probably do a lot to even things out.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    I think that If you have an initiative stat, just do initiative order.

    It'd be unfair for players who can't out in orders right away to have to spend points to be put on even ground with those who can.

    MegafrostSpoitEgoschiasaur11Iron Weasel
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I think that If you have an initiative stat, just do initiative order.

    It'd be unfair for players who can't out in orders right away to have to spend points to be put on even ground with those who can.

    It depends on how big a swing the stat provides, how much chance we have to cancel each other out, and the opportunity cost. The ability to be pretty sure I went first by posting early, or at least that I beat other people posting late, isn't necessarily as useful as being able to soak more damage or let loose with heavy artillery.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Yeah, and there's also the fact that sometimes it can be advantageous to go later in the turn order, like if somebody else is blowing the wall open and you're gonna run through it.

    What about this, then: Orders are arranged first by initiative stat, THEN by timestamp? That way, 1 point of Initiative doesn't just move you up one slot, it moves you up above EVERYONE who has 0 Initiative?

    EDIT: I think this method would diversify the character builds that would be viable. For instance, if you put enough into Initiative that you consistently went first/early every round, you could make a pretty effective Scout character who would usually be more-or-less immune to overwatch, and could dive behind concealment before shots were fired. With the right loadout, a pretty powerful squad member.

    Gandalf_the_Crazed on
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    AuralynxMill
  • CythraulCythraul Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    I think the easy way around the issue of putting in orders before overwatch would be to have your overwatch order be effective until your next turn. That way even with 0 initiative and shitty time scheduling you could be the last order of the day and be able to carry your overwatch to all the fast jerks who go first next turn :P

    ...or did it work that way already? Your comment makes me believe it didn't, but it seems like the intuitive way of doing it. I'm just not sure how it worked since I got the shitty end of the stick by being first into the building lol

    Cythraul on
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  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    It didn't work that way, though I definitely considered it prior to running the game. I could make it work that way, but it'd be another set of finicky bookkeeping for I'm-not-sure-how-much benefit.

    I might make that a feat, actually. "Constant Vigilance: Your Overwatch lasts until your next turn, or until it is triggered -- whichever comes first."

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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Yeah and initiative system like that would work fairly well. Solves some of the time zone issues without being to complicated. Time stamp would resolve ties.

    I would suggest the following to consider with this as well.

    -In addition to initiative modifiers, when orders are submitted, an initiative roll is done for each individual that adds in the initiative modifiers. Up to you if you wanted higher base initiative modifiers to be a tie breaker that proceeds time zones.

    -Have the option so that people can specify that their action will be held until a certain person has gone. For example, I end up being first in line thanks to initiative and getting my orders in early, but I don't want to move until Obi blows a hole throw a wall that I'm going to go past. So the setup up keeps pushing me back until he resolves Obi's action.

    This also opens the door to giving some classes/builds base state modifiers. For instance scouts would get a bonus to initiative once someone specs a character into it. I'm not sure that anything would get a negative initiative, but that might be an idea for balance purposes, some gets something badass early on, but it means they are more likely to go last.

  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    Yeah and initiative system like that would work fairly well. Solves some of the time zone issues without being to complicated. Time stamp would resolve ties.

    I would suggest the following to consider with this as well.

    -In addition to initiative modifiers, when orders are submitted, an initiative roll is done for each individual that adds in the initiative modifiers. Up to you if you wanted higher base initiative modifiers to be a tie breaker that proceeds time zones.

    -Have the option so that people can specify that their action will be held until a certain person has gone. For example, I end up being first in line thanks to initiative and getting my orders in early, but I don't want to move until Obi blows a hole throw a wall that I'm going to go past. So the setup up keeps pushing me back until he resolves Obi's action.

    This also opens the door to giving some classes/builds base state modifiers. For instance scouts would get a bonus to initiative once someone specs a character into it. I'm not sure that anything would get a negative initiative, but that might be an idea for balance purposes, some gets something badass early on, but it means they are more likely to go last.

    Thoughts in order:

    1. I'm not sure about the die roll. I can see it being useful as a mechanic for the aliens, or at least some of the species, so that you can't be entirely certain when their turn will come up. If any rolling happens, though, I think it would be a single Fudge roll at the start of combat for each soldier, to bump them up or down a level, for the entirety of that mission.

    2. Yeah, this needs to be a thing. What I'm thinking is, when you put in your name to submit orders, you also submit your desired Initiative number -- which must be less than or equal to your Initiative. That way, if you want to bump yourself down to 0 or whatever, you can do that. It'd be fairly easy to sort the orders by that field, and then double-check quickly (maybe via conditional formatting?) that everybody's chosen number was a valid selection for them. If it isn't, they get bumped down until it is. If somebody doesn't type in a desired Initiative level, they default to their highest Initiative.

    3. Yeah, I'm definitely planning equipment-based Initiative modifiers. Like Titan Armor, for example, seems good for at least a -1. Pistols -- all pistols, I think -- will have a +1.

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