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A God Damned Separate Thread For Your Argument About National Parks

ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
National parks are shut down because of the government shut down

Some people think this is dumb but they aren't considering the ferocious bears

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Some people think this is smart but they aren't considering trees grow all by themselves

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Nailed it.

What do you think?

Allegedly a voice of reason.
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Posts

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Vorpal wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    EDIT - and those 'natural parks' still have roads, parking lots, visitor centers, trash cans, bathrooms, trails, etc that require maintenance and upkeep. 99% of the people who go there aren't hiking overland and living off the land, they are using some established park facilities at one point or another...

    They don't all have visitor centers, trashcans, etc. (Some of the ones I've been to you have to carry your trash out with you). Yes, there are roads to the parks, parking lots, and trails. Those do not suddenly become inoperable after one day of the government being shut down. If it's a tiny urban park, it often has none of these things. Some parks do have extensive facilities - nice restrooms, gift shops, restaurants, observation lounges - these would make sense to close if you don't have anyone around to keep an eye on them. But there are many parks where there is no one keeping an eye on things even during normal government operation, and thus the lack of one is no reason to shut it down, and while it's entirely possible eventually the parking lot and litter could have been without maintenance for so long that the ability to enjoy the park is severely curtailed, that isn't going to happen even after a couple weeks of government shut down (the litter is a pet peeve of mine. People are disgusting pigs! I always take a plastic garbage bag with me and pick up what I see - at least up to the limit of what I can carry with my other gear. Glass bottles get heavy quickly. Corona light : the litterers light beer. I can easily see how you'd want park services to clean up the litter, but the litter doesn't actually make the park dangerous or unsafe - just much less pleasant). I certainly think it's desirable to get rid of litter and such but I don't see how not doing so makes the parks so dangerous they have to be closed. Although it seems the real impetus is preventing the government from being held liable if idiots get themselves injured, in which case I just want to say that's a very sad state of affairs and I have trouble believing it's even possible to sue if you go hiking in a park somewhere and get injured, but then you can be sued for serving hot coffee, so anything is possible, I guess.

    Let me ask you a a couple of questions.

    If a tree falls in the forest and blocks a major highway, does anyone hear the motorist bitching about it?

    If poachers wander into yellow stone national park looking to collect bear parts to ship to china, is anyone there to stop them?

    If people aren't cleaning up litter, what is keeping bears and coyotes from coming around looking for easy food?

    As an aside: I understand Eljeffe's decision but I thoroughly disagree with it since the government shutdown being pushed through by republicans has serious consequences to the department of the interior.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    All the national parks with elephants should be closed to Democrats.

    All the ones with donkeys should be closed to Republicans.

    All the ones with bears should be closed to investors.

    They can go to the bull-parks though. I'm OK with that.

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    The real issue with this argument being in the congress thread is that some people *cough* seem to be engaging in recreational contrarionism. When it's getting on to three pages of "Nope, I still don't understand, it's as if I didn't read the many lucid explanations of why this is happening so I will restate my ever-so-slight-re-worded original complaint" repeat forever it starts to drown out the actual discussion of what's going on in congress.

    And that's why it's a tangent.

    Regina Fong on
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  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    That polar bear probably tags oil pipelines and stuff when he's out not looking for a job.

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    Hell, the fabulous security couldn't even protect our national treasures when they were around!
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/30/woman-found-with-can-green-paint-may-have-defaced-lincoln-memorial-prosecutors/

    I take full responsibility for leading us on this tangent, but really I was complaining about public spaces in DC being "closed." There are obvious reasons why you don't want morons driving into national parks while they are closed, thinking everything's OK. Though it is still unclear to me whether you can hike on-off or what.

    Anywho, some of my fellow DC-ers violating the sanctity of our closed national parks:



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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    edited October 2013
    Chanus wrote: »
    That polar bear probably tags oil pipelines and stuff when he's out not looking for a job.


    I'm glad the parks are shut down because I'm tired of liberals who want to force wasteful subsidies on trees that can obviously thrive on their own.

    spool32 on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Hell, the fabulous security couldn't even protect our national treasures when they were around!
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/30/woman-found-with-can-green-paint-may-have-defaced-lincoln-memorial-prosecutors/

    I take full responsibility for leading us on this tangent, but really I was complaining about public spaces in DC being "closed." There are obvious reasons why you don't want morons driving into national parks while they are closed, thinking everything's OK. Though it is still unclear to me whether you can hike on-off or what.

    Anywho, some of my fellow DC-ers violating the sanctity of our closed national parks:




    And the point I raised was: hey guess what? Those monuments and what not are all technically part of the department of the interior, not municipal property and when the big bad federal government shuts down it has actual, visible effects.

    Tell you what though. Send me some pictures of those same parks in about 3 weeks when no one has been changing the garbages or keeping vandals from douching it up.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    And the point I raised was: hey guess what? Those monuments and what not are all technically part of the department of the interior, not municipal property and when the big bad federal government shuts down it has actual, visible effects.

    Tell you what though. Send me some pictures of those same parks in about 3 weeks when no one has been changing the garbages or keeping vandals from douching it up.

    The trash one is especially bad. I've seen public parks lose garbage collection for a short time and then have trash just keep piling on top of and around the cans. It's disgusting.

    However I also don't see something like this being especially effective either. The most any cop's probably going to do is shoo some people out and maybe issue tickets if they see the same people over and over.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Trash piling up everywhere eh?

    I guess a government shutdown looks a lot like an OWS protest.


    ...OH MY GOD

    we have to stop this thing immediately!

  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Careful there. The detritus and litter from stale, discarded, third rate jokes stack up pretty quickly without regular maintenance, too. Can't just throw them around willy nilly.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Whatever man, it's anarchy now.

    *spews puns*

  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    House to pass bills to reopen national parks, VA
    WASHINGTON (AP) - House and Senate Democrats say they'll reject a bid by Republicans to reopen portions of the government, including national parks and processing of claims at the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    They say the entire government should be reopened, not just the parts that Republicans like.

    Top Senate Democrat Harry Reid said Republicans "are trying to cherry-pick some of the few parts of government that they like."

    The plan by House Republicans would also allow the government of Washington, D.C., to use its own taxpayer funds to provide services like garbage pickup.

    The closure of national parks is among the most visible effects of the partial government shutdown. The GOP plan would reopen doors and visitors centers at iconic parks like Yosemite and Yellowstone and museums along the National Mall.

    NOT TODAY BEARS

    LULLING TREES INTO A HAMMOCK OF DEPENDENCY

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I like Bachmann's plan to be instrumental in barring the gates and then opening them to look like a hero.

    Like a one-moron Good Cop, Bad Cop

    Only both cops are bad

    And stupid

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    I like Bachmann's plan to be instrumental in barring the gates and then opening them to look like a hero.

    Like a one-moron Good Cop, Bad Cop

    Only both cops are bad

    And stupid

    Thank you, Big Brother, for raising the chocolate ration.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Also I agree Bachman is a shit for all this but I am glad those veterans got to see the memorial. I help out with the charity that flies in and we literally jus greeted those guys as they came off the planes a few days ago. A bunch of us were furious they might not get to see them after this long and coming this far so there is some good there.

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    As much as I love Republicans trying to spin this as 'mean Democrats shutting down the government to spite ailing WWII vets' wait what? No sorry I don't love that at all. I hope Bachman finds her karma bus soonest.

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    And the point I raised was: hey guess what? Those monuments and what not are all technically part of the department of the interior, not municipal property and when the big bad federal government shuts down it has actual, visible effects.

    Tell you what though. Send me some pictures of those same parks in about 3 weeks when no one has been changing the garbages or keeping vandals from douching it up.

    The trash one is especially bad. I've seen public parks lose garbage collection for a short time and then have trash just keep piling on top of and around the cans. It's disgusting.

    However I also don't see something like this being especially effective either. The most any cop's probably going to do is shoo some people out and maybe issue tickets if they see the same people over and over.

    The mayor of DC, somewhat illegally, declared that all DC service agencies are "essential personnel". The garbage won't be piling up in the DC national monuments at least. All people currently camping at national parks are being given two weeks to leave, and all others are being turned away immediately.

  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Relevant to our god damned interests:

    Idaho officials seeking experienced hikers to search for missing woman in National Park
    With 16 staff employees being placed on furlough, Ted Stout, chief of interpretation and education at Craters, told KBOI 2News that no one was looking for 63-year-old Jo Elliott-Blakeslee Tuesday morning, but a handful of staff members will be back out in the challenging terrain in the afternoon resuming the search.
    "It's pretty much just park staff that are continuing the search," Stout said. "But we're also faced with the government shutdown -- we've been busy with that."

    Federal workers are not allowed to volunteer to do their jobs during a shutdown because U.S. law says they can't do any work that has not been allocated funding.

    The search effort had already begun being scaled back due to rescue agencies being called back to their respective headquarters and poor weather earlier in the week. Only three staff members are at the park monitoring infrastructure resources.

    Ron Paul supporters chanting, "Let Her Die!", etc.

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    "Federal workers are not allowed to volunteer to do their jobs during a shutdown because U.S. law says they can't do any work that has not been allocated funding. "

    This seems stupid.
    Wait, I guess that's not completely in the spirit of the thread; Her only hope.

    Malkor on
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  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Malkor wrote: »
    "Federal workers are not allowed to volunteer to do their jobs during a shutdown because U.S. law says they can't do any work that has not been allocated funding. "

    This seems stupid.

    It's basically a way to not be able to compel federal workers to work for free under the guise of volunteering.

    Unless, of course, you just compel them to work for free under the guise of standing up for American Values.

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • LovelyLovely Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Seems smart to me. I know lots of jobs that would make you "volunteer" *wink wink nudge nudge* or you could be considered, not a team player! And it would be strongly implied that, hey, you didn't come in to volunteer, I guess that means you don't like your job? Oh, we're getting budget cuts, I wonder who to let go first...

    Lovely on
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  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Lovely wrote: »
    Seems smart to me. I know lots of jobs that would make you "volunteer" *wink wink nudge nudge* or you could be considered, not a team player! And it would be strongly implied that, hey, you didn't come in to volunteer, I guess that means you don't like your job? Oh, we're getting budget cuts, I wonder who to let go first...

    Exactly. I am considered not a team player because I do not pick up the phone on a moment's notice, and refuse to work off the clock. Bullshit like this is the reason for this law.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    So speaking of volunteering does anyone know who is actually in charge of maintaining these barriers?

  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Chanus wrote: »
    Malkor wrote: »
    "Federal workers are not allowed to volunteer to do their jobs during a shutdown because U.S. law says they can't do any work that has not been allocated funding. "

    This seems stupid.

    It's basically a way to not be able to compel federal workers to work for free under the guise of volunteering.

    Unless, of course, you just compel them to work for free under the guise of standing up for American Values.

    Yeah. I mean I get that you wouldn't want a situation where someone was compelled to file paper-work for free under the guise of "volunteering".

    I guess we're just "lucky" that it is one person stuck out in the wilderness (that we know of who even keeps track of that) and the 20k or so fires that federal firefighters deal with have been put out..

    http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/index.php

    I think. I clicked a link on that website and it sent me to a shutdown page.

    Malkor on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Vorpal wrote: »
    tuxkamen wrote: »
    Vorpal wrote: »
    Erecting barricades around those memorials was a stupid political stunt, and I am not surprised to see it backfiring.

    What they should have done was not erect the barricades, but simply stopped collecting the trash, maintaining the rest rooms, etc, and put up a sign saying "Please continue to enjoy the memorials, but we won't be able to maintain it to our usual high standards because of the government shut down". Then citizens would have eventually said "Huh...why is our memorial filling up with trash and why are the porta johns overflowing? This is ridiculous, you need to fix it".

    Actively setting up barricades and trying to keep citizens from getting in at all just seems mean-spirited and petty. It paints the park services as taking an active, adversarial role against citizens. Given that who 'wins' here is largely a measure of PR and messaging, perceptions are important.

    You can't do this for safety reasons. A lot of the memorials are a) very open in layout but also b) potentially dangerous to the unsupervised. This sounds oddly similar to the national parks argument because it is, but in the case of the WWII memorial (for example) the water features are more than sufficient to drown in if you do something dumb. Statuary isn't usually dangerous; people being foolish and climbing up on statuary is. (Imagine all the people who just have to get a picture on Abe's lap now that they have the chance.) And what happens when the inevitable occurs and someone gets hurt or worse? Sue the government, of course--they allowed people to have access to monuments even though there was no supervision. The lawsuit would be garbage, of course, but why should the government open itself up to liability?

    I think this line of argumentation is ludicrous and persuades no one. "We had to shut down the park, because without a federal employee standing there to tell you not to climb on the statues, this grassy meadow is just not SAFE!". Right. Everything is potentially dangerous unsupervised. The idea that Americans are going to start keeling over dead if they wander around a cement plaza with statues without the watchful eye of the government there to save them is complete bunk and everyone knows it. How much weight did this safety argument have with the veterans? Zero. In fact, they were at far greater risk of getting injured dismantling/climbing the barricade the park services put up than from anything else. The argument that open air outdoor plazas are just too dangerous for people to travel through unsupervised is nonsensical and insulting.

    And arguing that the government is locking citizens out of their memorials simply in order to protect itself from lawsuits hardly a mark in their favor. Has anyone successfully sued the government for being injured in the WWII memorial (or any memorial) before?

    It's not just lawsuits but to actually protect people. Should children not climb on Abe Lincoln lest they fall? Of course not. But that doesn't mean it won't happen and it's why we have people around to make sure it doesn't.

    And that you think it should just be tough shit for people who do that is irrelevant. We as a nation employed these people in the position they're in and had them create safety regulations because we did think it's important. If you think safety shouldn't be part of it though feel free to try and get the regulations changed.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Vorpal wrote: »
    tuxkamen wrote: »
    Vandalism is another good reason. But if you say so.

    Given that people are getting into these memorials despite them being closed, it is apparent that closing them neither protects the memorials from vandalism nor prevents people from potentially being injured there. I would argue that closing a memorial to the public makes it easier to vandals to get inside and deface the memorial without anyone seeing them.

    Closing them is thus purely symbolic. And the symbolism is bad, for reasons I explained earlier.

    Cite that it's purely symbolism other than normal regulation please.

    And seriously @vorpal the thread is over here.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Absalon wrote: »
    Why do the vets need to visit the memorials anyway? Like, right now? They've probably done these rituals many times over.

    Incorrect. These veterans were specifically part of an Honor Flight. Many of them have never seen the memorials for their respective wars. And they arrived this previous Saturday before Republicans decided to shut everything down.

    Quid on
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    tsmvengy wrote: »
    Hell, the fabulous security couldn't even protect our national treasures when they were around!
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/30/woman-found-with-can-green-paint-may-have-defaced-lincoln-memorial-prosecutors/

    I take full responsibility for leading us on this tangent, but really I was complaining about public spaces in DC being "closed." There are obvious reasons why you don't want morons driving into national parks while they are closed, thinking everything's OK. Though it is still unclear to me whether you can hike on-off or what.

    Anywho, some of my fellow DC-ers violating the sanctity of our closed national parks:




    And the point I raised was: hey guess what? Those monuments and what not are all technically part of the department of the interior, not municipal property and when the big bad federal government shuts down it has actual, visible effects.

    Tell you what though. Send me some pictures of those same parks in about 3 weeks when no one has been changing the garbages or keeping vandals from douching it up.

    Of course that will happen, that's the bad part about it. Though actually DC gov't is going to be collecting trash even in the federal parks after about a week I believe. I was only pointing out the ridiculousness of wasting resources to put up barriers that do nothing.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    "Hey we are closed, stay the fuck out" isn't nothing.

    It'd be hilarious if the reps that went to the memorial were cited for trespassing. Probably shouldn't happen, but hilarious.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Yeah barriers do have an effect.

    Obviously if someone really wanted in they could. But that goes for a lot of stuff.

  • MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »

    "Let's take this somewhere else ..." (Clearly, the people here are more educated than we gave them credit for )

    9UsHUfk.jpgSteam
    3DS FC: 4699-5714-8940 Playing Pokemon, add me! Ho, SATAN!
  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Look how young and full of shit Newt Gingrich looks in that pic

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Look how young and full of shit Newt Gingrich looks in that pic

    It looks like he's sticking his thumb out at the President. "This guy, right here. This guy."

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