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DOOM: Ripping and Tearing After All These Years

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Posts

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    romero actually commented about brootal doom
    "The only thing I think about now is.. what if... when we released Doom, we actually released Brutal Doom?" (laughs). We would have destroyed the gaming industry, I think. Brutal Doom is hilarious."

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Half-Life has basically the same story as Doom.

    Story doesn't matter. Execution does.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Half-Life has basically the same story as Doom.

    Story doesn't matter. Execution does.

    I feel games that tell a story through atmosphere and gameplay get shit on a little too much.

    I also feel there is plenty of room for both. I love a good story driven game as much as anyone, but I also feel like Doom was never the right game to do it.

  • DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    Half-Life has basically the same story as Doom.

    Story doesn't matter. Execution does.

    Half Life is one of the very very few games to get what Doom did and expand on those ideas.

  • AstaleAstale Registered User regular
    I liked Doom 3 because it was a decent horror game and an okay shooter.

    Don't think I'd like it without the horror aspect though, so probably going to be disappointed in this.

  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard The duck MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    Hahaha!

    A Revenant and Imp were fighting. The Revenant killed it, picked it up and threw it at me, killing me.

    I, for one, love Brutal Doom.

  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited February 2016
    Yeah happened across Lirik streaming Doom 3 right now. I don't normally watch him but in this case I wanted to see how much I remember compared to Doom 1/2. Doom 1/2 are basically genetic memory, being so ingrained in my childhood. Doom 3 however, I remember almost nothing of - I'm immediately struck by how many concepts used in this game are "inspired by" Half-Life.

    Donnicton on
  • DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    Yeah, a situation where the master becomes the student I guess.

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    FPS DNA is pretty straight forward. Wolfenstein >Doom >Half Life >Halo. After that you start getting into WWII Uber Alles and Call of Duty. The influence Half Life had probably can't be given enough credit. A literal sea change.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Quake was a pretty important evolution too. Real 3D levels, hardware acceleration, scripting language for user modification, tcp/ip multiplayer.

  • Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    Yeah I would put the first Quake between Doom and Half Life.

  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    As babby, what things did Half Life improve upon, exactly?

  • CenoCeno pizza time Registered User regular
    cB557 wrote: »
    As babby, what things did Half Life improve upon, exactly?

    It was the first thing to really integrate story seamlessly into gameplay. Walking "into" a story beat that you can move around during, stuff like that. Commonplace stuff these days.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.

    Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,

    Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.

  • MechanicalMechanical Registered User regular
    Every time I see Half-Life get mentioned for having a fantastic story I get kinda lost. Game was great and all, but plot? For the first? I feel like it's pretty much the same as Doom. "We did weird science and opened some portal and now aliens and monsters are spilling out, go kill them."

    I don't think that diminishes the game any, mind. Still fun.

  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Scripted sequences, NPC interaction, and first person interactive cutscenes were big things that Half Life did.

    It also had a big push toward "smarter" AI (human enemies would flank you and throw grenades to try to flush you out of cover, alien enemies would "track you by scent" and follow you if you ran and tried to hide from them).

    Shipping the game with Worldcraft (now Hammer) on disc was pretty novel as well. Plenty of earlier games came with level editors but I don't remember any coming with a full SDK that was used by the developers themselves, which was (I think) a major reason why Half Life had such an insane amount of mods.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Like I said, it's not the story, it's the execution.

    The story in doom is a few paragraphs in the manual and then a few paragraphs at the end of every episode. That's about it.

    The story in half-life is a constant presence in the game, starting with an extended non-combat sequence establishing the research facility and Gordon's place in it. From there the story just continues around you, compete with revelations and plot twists.

  • DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    It also expanded on Doom's infighting with more variety and factions. Things like health kits and health stations were presented in a believable way. Pickups and supplies are never floating powerups or icons. Everything in the game is presented in a consistent fashion, even the presence of a HUD is explained by the HEV suit. Then you have the world building, level design and the story itself.

    I've recently played through Questionable Ethics and I'm winding up Surface Tension and while everything is blocky and levels are a lot more compressed than my memory of them, it all holds up really well. Everything shows a lot of polish and blowing up that helicopter is as satisfying now as it ever was. Levels are packed full of events and the AI still super solid, and what stands out now more than ever is absolutely amazing audio design.

    Half Life is the first real full package first person shooter. It's not absolutely perfect but it's damn close.

  • Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    Yeah, it was the first (or at least one of the first) games where the levels were semi-believable locations, instead of random mazes.

  • JobsJobs Registered User regular
    edited February 2016
    Half-Life has basically the same story as Doom.

    Story doesn't matter. Execution does.
    Mechanical wrote: »
    Every time I see Half-Life get mentioned for having a fantastic story I get kinda lost. Game was great and all, but plot? For the first? I feel like it's pretty much the same as Doom. "We did weird science and opened some portal and now aliens and monsters are spilling out, go kill them."

    I don't think that diminishes the game any, mind. Still fun.

    Characters, world building, atmosphere. HL2 did all this even better and is still the golden standard for writing in the FPS genre, IMO. It maintained an atmosphere of mystery and surprise through every game, and a genuine sense of place.

    Anyway, here's a thing relevant to the topic:

    0RQlJNC.jpg

    Jobs on
  • UselesswarriorUselesswarrior Registered User regular
    Edge does really nice cover work. They were a big inspiration to other magazines in terms of minimizing stuff around whatever cool graphic they have on the cover.

    Hey I made a game, check it out @ http://ifallingrobot.com/. (Or don't, your call)
  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    cB557 wrote: »
    As babby, what things did Half Life improve upon, exactly?

    Just one other thing:

    Before Half-Life, FPS worlds were generally treated as being made of the same, generic 'stuff' where, even with texture mapping and various auditory cues (walking on metal vs walking on grass, etc) the world geometry was this immutable, indestructible surface, upon which there were enemies, switches, explodey things, and not much else beyond items and power-ups to collect. Hitting any wall, floor, or bit of architecture in Quake with your axe yields the same result, unless it's a secret area that will then obediently become a door each time it is struck.

    Half-Life expanded on the idea of game world entities a thousand-fold, and introduced the first real presentation of materials, and objects that are neither enemies or power-ups. It was basically the first time an FPS did a bang-up job of presenting a realish world with furniture, working appliances, and all the geegaws of modern humanity, as well as things like wood that would bust up and splinter, weak metal, actual acoustics for sound in larger areas or in tightly contained things like air vents. Glass could be broken. Every set piece was rich with entities that largely behaved in a way you might reasonably expect it to in real life, rather than just being a level with nice window dressing.

    And that's not even getting into the AI stuff, scripted events, and breaking most of the FPS weapon arsenal paradigms.

  • heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    edited February 2016
    Man. people were wondering "Why is Doomguy so angry? Why did he smash the corpse's face into the scanner?" and the answer is obvious.

    The demons killed his rabbit. So now he's fueled solely by a lust for revenge.

    heenato on
    M A G I K A Z A M
  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.

    Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,

    Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.

    System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.

    Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,

    Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.

    System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.

    Yeah, and Kill/Switch did cover based shooting years before Gears of War, but nobody is going to argue about which game made it ubiquitous.

  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.

    Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,

    Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.

    System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.

    Yeah, and Kill/Switch did cover based shooting years before Gears of War, but nobody is going to argue about which game made it ubiquitous.

    Ya, but in this case it's not really just one element. It captured a lot of the changes in direction games ended up going, and games like Dead Space and DOOM 3 actually resemble System Shock more than Half Life.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.

  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.

    We're talking about good games

    JtgVX0H.png
  • ZxerolZxerol for the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't do so i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered User regular
    oh shit darmak, what are you doing. what have you done

  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Damn, somebody get some aloe over here!

  • Liquid GhostLiquid Ghost DO YOU HEAR THE VOICES, TOO?! Registered User regular
    the amount of salt i'm experiencing right now could crisp the delicious flesh of an entire grilled whale

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.

    We're talking about good games

    Craziness.

    I dont recognize your tomfoolery.

  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    And then Darmak was a zombie

    JtgVX0H.png
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.

    We're talking about good games

    It's a good thing for you that we're not talking about good opinions.

  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.

    We're talking about good games

    It's a good thing for you that we're not talking about good opinions.

    You are now!

    JtgVX0H.png
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    Third base.

  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    Hey guys, did you see that new Doom trai- OH FUCK

    I, uh, think I left my garage door in the oven I need to go.

  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    You are now!

    I still think your opinion is bad, but I don't really have a comeback for this so I'm going to have to go ahead and award you the point.

  • DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    You are now!

    I still think your opinion is bad, but I don't really have a comeback for this so I'm going to have to go ahead and award you the point.

    I don't care what Monger said about you; you're good people, Smoke

    JtgVX0H.png
  • MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
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