surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
romero actually commented about brootal doom
"The only thing I think about now is.. what if... when we released Doom, we actually released Brutal Doom?" (laughs). We would have destroyed the gaming industry, I think. Brutal Doom is hilarious."
I feel games that tell a story through atmosphere and gameplay get shit on a little too much.
I also feel there is plenty of room for both. I love a good story driven game as much as anyone, but I also feel like Doom was never the right game to do it.
+2
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Yeah happened across Lirik streaming Doom 3 right now. I don't normally watch him but in this case I wanted to see how much I remember compared to Doom 1/2. Doom 1/2 are basically genetic memory, being so ingrained in my childhood. Doom 3 however, I remember almost nothing of - I'm immediately struck by how many concepts used in this game are "inspired by" Half-Life.
Donnicton on
0
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Yeah, a situation where the master becomes the student I guess.
FPS DNA is pretty straight forward. Wolfenstein >Doom >Half Life >Halo. After that you start getting into WWII Uber Alles and Call of Duty. The influence Half Life had probably can't be given enough credit. A literal sea change.
As babby, what things did Half Life improve upon, exactly?
It was the first thing to really integrate story seamlessly into gameplay. Walking "into" a story beat that you can move around during, stuff like that. Commonplace stuff these days.
It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.
Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,
Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.
Every time I see Half-Life get mentioned for having a fantastic story I get kinda lost. Game was great and all, but plot? For the first? I feel like it's pretty much the same as Doom. "We did weird science and opened some portal and now aliens and monsters are spilling out, go kill them."
I don't think that diminishes the game any, mind. Still fun.
Scripted sequences, NPC interaction, and first person interactive cutscenes were big things that Half Life did.
It also had a big push toward "smarter" AI (human enemies would flank you and throw grenades to try to flush you out of cover, alien enemies would "track you by scent" and follow you if you ran and tried to hide from them).
Shipping the game with Worldcraft (now Hammer) on disc was pretty novel as well. Plenty of earlier games came with level editors but I don't remember any coming with a full SDK that was used by the developers themselves, which was (I think) a major reason why Half Life had such an insane amount of mods.
Like I said, it's not the story, it's the execution.
The story in doom is a few paragraphs in the manual and then a few paragraphs at the end of every episode. That's about it.
The story in half-life is a constant presence in the game, starting with an extended non-combat sequence establishing the research facility and Gordon's place in it. From there the story just continues around you, compete with revelations and plot twists.
+1
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
It also expanded on Doom's infighting with more variety and factions. Things like health kits and health stations were presented in a believable way. Pickups and supplies are never floating powerups or icons. Everything in the game is presented in a consistent fashion, even the presence of a HUD is explained by the HEV suit. Then you have the world building, level design and the story itself.
I've recently played through Questionable Ethics and I'm winding up Surface Tension and while everything is blocky and levels are a lot more compressed than my memory of them, it all holds up really well. Everything shows a lot of polish and blowing up that helicopter is as satisfying now as it ever was. Levels are packed full of events and the AI still super solid, and what stands out now more than ever is absolutely amazing audio design.
Half Life is the first real full package first person shooter. It's not absolutely perfect but it's damn close.
Every time I see Half-Life get mentioned for having a fantastic story I get kinda lost. Game was great and all, but plot? For the first? I feel like it's pretty much the same as Doom. "We did weird science and opened some portal and now aliens and monsters are spilling out, go kill them."
I don't think that diminishes the game any, mind. Still fun.
Characters, world building, atmosphere. HL2 did all this even better and is still the golden standard for writing in the FPS genre, IMO. It maintained an atmosphere of mystery and surprise through every game, and a genuine sense of place.
Edge does really nice cover work. They were a big inspiration to other magazines in terms of minimizing stuff around whatever cool graphic they have on the cover.
As babby, what things did Half Life improve upon, exactly?
Just one other thing:
Before Half-Life, FPS worlds were generally treated as being made of the same, generic 'stuff' where, even with texture mapping and various auditory cues (walking on metal vs walking on grass, etc) the world geometry was this immutable, indestructible surface, upon which there were enemies, switches, explodey things, and not much else beyond items and power-ups to collect. Hitting any wall, floor, or bit of architecture in Quake with your axe yields the same result, unless it's a secret area that will then obediently become a door each time it is struck.
Half-Life expanded on the idea of game world entities a thousand-fold, and introduced the first real presentation of materials, and objects that are neither enemies or power-ups. It was basically the first time an FPS did a bang-up job of presenting a realish world with furniture, working appliances, and all the geegaws of modern humanity, as well as things like wood that would bust up and splinter, weak metal, actual acoustics for sound in larger areas or in tightly contained things like air vents. Glass could be broken. Every set piece was rich with entities that largely behaved in a way you might reasonably expect it to in real life, rather than just being a level with nice window dressing.
And that's not even getting into the AI stuff, scripted events, and breaking most of the FPS weapon arsenal paradigms.
It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.
Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,
Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.
System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.
It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.
Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,
Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.
System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.
Yeah, and Kill/Switch did cover based shooting years before Gears of War, but nobody is going to argue about which game made it ubiquitous.
It was basically establishing a sense of presence, and that story could be something more than some paragraphs in the manual.
Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,
Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.
System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.
Yeah, and Kill/Switch did cover based shooting years before Gears of War, but nobody is going to argue about which game made it ubiquitous.
Ya, but in this case it's not really just one element. It captured a lot of the changes in direction games ended up going, and games like Dead Space and DOOM 3 actually resemble System Shock more than Half Life.
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I find the lack of Deus Ex in this discussion to be disturbing.
Posts
Story doesn't matter. Execution does.
I feel games that tell a story through atmosphere and gameplay get shit on a little too much.
I also feel there is plenty of room for both. I love a good story driven game as much as anyone, but I also feel like Doom was never the right game to do it.
Half Life is one of the very very few games to get what Doom did and expand on those ideas.
Don't think I'd like it without the horror aspect though, so probably going to be disappointed in this.
A Revenant and Imp were fighting. The Revenant killed it, picked it up and threw it at me, killing me.
I, for one, love Brutal Doom.
It was the first thing to really integrate story seamlessly into gameplay. Walking "into" a story beat that you can move around during, stuff like that. Commonplace stuff these days.
Small stuff like levels you could move back and forth between, smaller levels for quicker loads, never taking the view away from the player, characters who's mouths moved when they spoke, scripted sequences, weapons that are placed in the world instead of just spinning in the air like a videogame, characters just give you info instead of giving a mission objective in a cutscene,
Like things that were such good ideas that they've become ubiquitous.
I don't think that diminishes the game any, mind. Still fun.
It also had a big push toward "smarter" AI (human enemies would flank you and throw grenades to try to flush you out of cover, alien enemies would "track you by scent" and follow you if you ran and tried to hide from them).
Shipping the game with Worldcraft (now Hammer) on disc was pretty novel as well. Plenty of earlier games came with level editors but I don't remember any coming with a full SDK that was used by the developers themselves, which was (I think) a major reason why Half Life had such an insane amount of mods.
The story in doom is a few paragraphs in the manual and then a few paragraphs at the end of every episode. That's about it.
The story in half-life is a constant presence in the game, starting with an extended non-combat sequence establishing the research facility and Gordon's place in it. From there the story just continues around you, compete with revelations and plot twists.
I've recently played through Questionable Ethics and I'm winding up Surface Tension and while everything is blocky and levels are a lot more compressed than my memory of them, it all holds up really well. Everything shows a lot of polish and blowing up that helicopter is as satisfying now as it ever was. Levels are packed full of events and the AI still super solid, and what stands out now more than ever is absolutely amazing audio design.
Half Life is the first real full package first person shooter. It's not absolutely perfect but it's damn close.
Characters, world building, atmosphere. HL2 did all this even better and is still the golden standard for writing in the FPS genre, IMO. It maintained an atmosphere of mystery and surprise through every game, and a genuine sense of place.
Anyway, here's a thing relevant to the topic:
Just one other thing:
Before Half-Life, FPS worlds were generally treated as being made of the same, generic 'stuff' where, even with texture mapping and various auditory cues (walking on metal vs walking on grass, etc) the world geometry was this immutable, indestructible surface, upon which there were enemies, switches, explodey things, and not much else beyond items and power-ups to collect. Hitting any wall, floor, or bit of architecture in Quake with your axe yields the same result, unless it's a secret area that will then obediently become a door each time it is struck.
Half-Life expanded on the idea of game world entities a thousand-fold, and introduced the first real presentation of materials, and objects that are neither enemies or power-ups. It was basically the first time an FPS did a bang-up job of presenting a realish world with furniture, working appliances, and all the geegaws of modern humanity, as well as things like wood that would bust up and splinter, weak metal, actual acoustics for sound in larger areas or in tightly contained things like air vents. Glass could be broken. Every set piece was rich with entities that largely behaved in a way you might reasonably expect it to in real life, rather than just being a level with nice window dressing.
And that's not even getting into the AI stuff, scripted events, and breaking most of the FPS weapon arsenal paradigms.
The demons killed his rabbit. So now he's fueled solely by a lust for revenge.
System Shock (and the Ultima Underworlds) tread a lot of this ground while competing against DOOM. Way ahead of its time in many ways.
Yeah, and Kill/Switch did cover based shooting years before Gears of War, but nobody is going to argue about which game made it ubiquitous.
Ya, but in this case it's not really just one element. It captured a lot of the changes in direction games ended up going, and games like Dead Space and DOOM 3 actually resemble System Shock more than Half Life.
We're talking about good games
Craziness.
I dont recognize your tomfoolery.
It's a good thing for you that we're not talking about good opinions.
You are now!
I, uh, think I left my garage door in the oven I need to go.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
I still think your opinion is bad, but I don't really have a comeback for this so I'm going to have to go ahead and award you the point.
I don't care what Monger said about you; you're good people, Smoke
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.