To be fair, there was a decent amount of blowback for Apollo you don't really hear about. This has a decent amount of it. There were protest marches heading right to Cape Canaveral on the Apollo 11th launch. A bunch of hippies, picnicking families and space-interested people, and then a protest of mules and people who couldn't even afford shoes (and the people that supported those people) kind of juxtaposed the same thought processes the Indian launch does.
Everyone places their line of "That'd be a waste" somewhere between 'dividing' wealth and driving 'progress'. I think the "You either feed everyone or you go to the moon." is a false dichotomy, though. Plus I think the indirect benefits have more than paid for themselves, but people suffering from malnutrition and starvation in the 1960s in the US would likely disagree.
I wonder how much deltaV they save using the 6 burns over just one long one. Maybe the engine they're using can't actually produce enough thrust to do it all in one reasonably sized burn?
Space is crazy.
I haven't played any KSP since i realized LOR mission profiles give you pooscience, does anyone know if they're some sort of addon that fixes the data storage for that mission profile?
I hope they can add some sort of "moon base" map marker or something for managing a bunch of stuff close together. The map does not like you if you dump 2+ probes right next to each other. Not that [ and ] are all that difficult to use. But I could plop a "moon base designator" or something on one and give me the ability to track it visually in flying mode and just click on it to open a list of everything within, say, 1 km...that would be pretty helpful.
What I'd really like is a 3D nav ball for when I'm landing a VTOL. My nose is generally stuck horizontal, so it's hard to correct drift on my downward motion except by eye.
Honestly I would expect the first long-term flight manned mission to result in ,"...lost all contact with the crew of Isis station Alpha 1-1 after fires mysteriously started in two of the living quarters adjacent to the mono-propellant tanks. The craft is heavily damaged and is drifting on a course to collide with the red planet, leaving nothing but scarred burning hulk upon its entry to the atmosphere."
This is all i could think of when i first heard of those 'be the first to live on mars!' missions that private companies are talking about... how could those end in anything other than one (or more) of the people going absolutely bat shit fucking insane and killing all the others.
I mean they talked about having everyone thoroughly checked out and everything to make sure they are mentally stable but we have zero experience with anyone living on a planet so far from us, even just *knowing* you will never be able to go home, that has to weigh heavily...
Honestly I would expect the first long-term flight manned mission to result in ,"...lost all contact with the crew of Isis station Alpha 1-1 after fires mysteriously started in two of the living quarters adjacent to the mono-propellant tanks. The craft is heavily damaged and is drifting on a course to collide with the red planet, leaving nothing but scarred burning hulk upon its entry to the atmosphere."
This is all i could think of when i first heard of those 'be the first to live on mars!' missions that private companies are talking about... how could those end in anything other than one (or more) of the people going absolutely bat shit fucking insane and killing all the others.
I mean they talked about having everyone thoroughly checked out and everything to make sure they are mentally stable but we have zero experience with anyone living on a planet so far from us, even just *knowing* you will never be able to go home, that has to weigh heavily...
Also, I have learned that approaching Gilly going 1000 m/s does not end well 3000 m above the surface when your 20 tons of rocket fuel explodes in a ball of gravitational fury. I've also learned that the MechJeb node editor is great for creating encounters before the "ideal" window the planner recommends.
Pfft, 80 days of cycling around Kerbin. How about 5 hours to our node for a highly elliptical Eve injection (...that will then happen 20 days later)?
President Rex on
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited November 2013
Eh, people have lived with insanely poor, cramped conditions together for months on old sailing ships: horrible food, nasty water, nowhere to go, nothing to do but work and drink, and little to no education to fall back on for stuff to think about. Took severe discipline to keep them in line, but they were able to live and work for long, long periods of time without crippling or killing each other.
Plus, folks these days wouldn't even be stuck incommunicado. Along with the huge volumes of entertainment material that could now be digitally stored, there's no reason that a ship wouldn't be able to recieve daily information broadcasts about all sorts of crap, along with communications from friends and family. And something like the Oculus Rift actually does offer a way a possible means of combating psychological issues of cramped conditions, which could be a powerful tool. That sort of travel wouldn't be for everybody, sure, but I'm entirely certain you could find people who could handle that sort of situation for that long, especially highly dedicated, trained, intelligent individuals.
Far, far more important would be the physiological problems created by extended zero-gravity exposure, such as bone and muscle wastage. Until we develop ways to combat those, either through figuring out how to counter the effects through medication or a way to simulate Earth-normal gravity, the amount of time that can be spent in space will be pretty restricted. The radiation is definitely a thing, sure, but that's just a matter of getting a ship shielded, which is easier to deal with than the low-G issues, at the moment.
I wonder how much deltaV they save using the 6 burns over just one long one. Maybe the engine they're using can't actually produce enough thrust to do it all in one reasonably sized burn?
It's almost definitely a thrust issue - the ideal burn is to dump all your dV instantly at Pe X to raise the Ap to Y, which of course isn't really possible. Since they probably have a low-thrust-high-efficiency engine, they do the next best thing, which is several small burns at the same point in the orbit.
I think there are efficient ways to do a "spiral" ascent, where you're essentially burning very low-thrust engines constantly to widen the orbit, but India's way sounds technically simpler.
I wonder how much deltaV they save using the 6 burns over just one long one. Maybe the engine they're using can't actually produce enough thrust to do it all in one reasonably sized burn?
Space is crazy.
I haven't played any KSP since i realized LOR mission profiles give you pooscience, does anyone know if they're some sort of addon that fixes the data storage for that mission profile?
This is one of the conclusions I came to. I tested this last night with an LV 808, 1x300dv (18s) burn at Pe and Pe -9s yielded similar results. 6x50dv @ Pe and Pe-1s also hit roughly the same number. All cases were MechJeb controlled and raised Ap from ~1000km to ~5000km +- ~1km.
The other possibility is that KSP engines have a flat ISP value, whereas I suspect real engines probably have variable efficiency based on throttle setting. So the engine may have been capable of produing enough thrust in one burn, but not at optimal fuel efficiency.
Either way, not worth the trouble in KSP, though, in hindsight, those numbers might start to change with much larger burn times that have you burning for a more significant portion of your orbital path. In my test my orbit was roughly 30 minutes, so 18 seconds was a drop In the bucket.
those numbers might start to change with much larger burn times that have you burning for a more significant portion of your orbital path. In my test my orbit was roughly 30 minutes, so 18 seconds was a drop In the bucket.
I suspect this is a significant portion of the issue. As your orbit gets shorter you'll see less efficiency as the longer burn covers more of your orbit.
I'm wondering if there's enough to be gained from keep the burns really short to let you carry another kilogram or two of payload though (I believe it was about 1400 kg to orbit for them). If that's the case, that could be another instrument, which would absolutely be worthwhile.
those numbers might start to change with much larger burn times that have you burning for a more significant portion of your orbital path. In my test my orbit was roughly 30 minutes, so 18 seconds was a drop In the bucket.
I suspect this is a significant portion of the issue. As your orbit gets shorter you'll see less efficiency as the longer burn covers more of your orbit.
I'm wondering if there's enough to be gained from keep the burns really short to let you carry another kilogram or two of payload though (I believe it was about 1400 kg to orbit for them). If that's the case, that could be another instrument, which would absolutely be worthwhile.
I'm sure it was only gaining them a very small amount of extra deltaV to get another couple of Kg. But unlike KSP, real space launches are very finely tuned to where doing things like short burns only at AP/PE, or multiple gravity slingshots, moving your entire launch platform to a large ship on the equator, etc. begin to make sense.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Considering the distances involved in sending something to Mars and the extreme need for efficiency, that multi-pass burn makes complete sense. With maneuvers that have required very high accuracy from short orbits with only low-thrust engines on the craft, I've had to do multi-pass burns; it enormously simplifies getting apoapsis into a targeted spot, and you aren't wasting delta v by altering the overall parameters of the orbit, just the apoapsis. You keep the maximum amount of thrust dedicated to raising that apoapsis along with the simplest way of keeping apoapsis where you want.
If you have a really low-thrust engine and your orbit is only so many hours long, a burn of 5-10 minutes is a pretty significant chunk of the orbit, and so you end up with apoapsis moving all over the place. You just keep looping around and doing brief burns at periapsis; takes a while, but it's probably the most efficient way it can be done.
Just hope the Indian government doesn't have to call tech support for their Mechjeb; I don't think the universe could handle that result of outsourcing call centers. :P
+2
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Does the latest version of Mechjeb work with the latest version of Kerbal? (And is .21 or .22 the latest version of Mechjeb?) I'm getting conflicting reports from poking around the internets.
Uh, i have the latest version of kerbal, and the latest version of mechjeb works perfectly and is well integrated into the tech tree. so gonna say yes.
Does the latest version of Mechjeb work with the latest version of Kerbal? (And is .21 or .22 the latest version of Mechjeb?) I'm getting conflicting reports from poking around the internets.
Thanks, it looks like I just had some kinda bug. I saw the AR202 part in the tech tree, but it just prompted me to 'buy' the specific part over and over, without it ever appearing in the assembly building. I ended up with a small collection of AR202s being displayed on the same node of the tech tree. Reinstalling fixed it.
What I'd really like is a 3D nav ball for when I'm landing a VTOL. My nose is generally stuck horizontal, so it's hard to correct drift on my downward motion except by eye.
There is a cheap solution to this where you put one half of a docking port right on top of your VTOL, then when you are landing, right click it and select "Control from Here" and where the port is pointing is the new "foward" as far as the nav ball and docking mode are concerned.
Definitely cute but, uh, maybe a bit rhythmically challenged.
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Is there a decent "why you should play kerbal space program and here is why you maybe will or will not like it" somewhere out there? The concept intrigues me, but I don't know if I'd be up for a game like this.
Is there a decent "why you should play kerbal space program and here is why you maybe will or will not like it" somewhere out there? The concept intrigues me, but I don't know if I'd be up for a game like this.
ShogunHair long; money long; me and broke wizards we don't get alongRegistered Userregular
edited November 2013
I really like the look of that mod, but I am somewhat disappointed the mod planets are basically copies of other existing planets.
edit: according to the ksp forums all the planets in the mod pack have been landed on using cheats, but apparently there are several that have never been legit landed on. They've all been made purposefully difficult to get to and land on.
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Yeah. I think it's an engine limitation, but I'm not sure since the mod creator hasn't yet posted his plugins source code or chosen a licence (against the rules for mods that use plugins).
Poor bill's been stranded on Duna for 6 years. He had enough fuel to reach low orbit, but not enough to get up to his thruster module, and the thruster didn't have enough power generation to get down to meet it. I sent out a two-stage rescue probe to recover fuel from the thruster, refuel his lander, then take him home... but man, siphoning fuel out of a derelict spaceship feels more Firefly than NASA. Not that there's a single thing wrong with that, mind you
Also, I build a basic space station with the Cupola module, but the game classifies it as a lander. Is there a way to change it to show up as a station?
Also, I build a basic space station with the Cupola module, but the game classifies it as a lander. Is there a way to change it to show up as a station?
Fly it, and then right click on a command module (the cupola, a docking port, etc.). It'll have a "rename vessel" option, which also lets you reclassify it.
0.23 Update News
by HarvesteR View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message View Blog Entries View Articles Published on 5th November 2013 14:08 178 Comments Hi,
It’s time to talk about our goals for the next update. As you all know, we’re on a major push to develop Career Mode, but after a release as large as 0.22 was, we needed to have an update to catch up on all the stuff we’ve added, fix bugs and revisit some of the features in the last update. This is all so we can start off the next big thing on Career Mode with a game that’s as stable and polished as we can make it.
So these are our main goals for 0.23:
* All-Around Optimizations
We’re going through each line of game code and making sure things are getting done as efficiently as possible. We’re also optimizing the asset loaders to reduce loading times, and upgrading to the latest version of Unity, to take advantage of all its new tweaks and fixes.
* The Science Archives
Collecting scientific data isn’t just about advancing the tech tree. The Science Archives will be a new section on the R&D Facility, which lets you review all the data you’ve accumulated to date. This is your library to view all the knowledge you’ve gathered for Kerbalkind. Also, this overview should help plan future missions.
* Tweakables
This long-awaited feature is finally coming with this update. Tweakables will allow you to open a context menu for each part during construction. This allows for unprecedented freedom in design and setup of a spacecraft. Want your wingtip control surfaces to act only as ailerons? Or your landing gear to start deployed or retracted, or to make some of them steerable? Tweakables will allow for all that, plus many other adjustments.
* Science Revisited
We too have been playing the newly-implemented Career Mode, and taking in all the feedback from the community. We are changing a few things to make Science much more interesting:
* The Transmission logic is being redone, so no matter how many batteries you’ve got, you won’t be able to max out a subject by just using antennas.
* We’re also changing the way experiments allow being reset, so don’t get too attached to those endlessly-repeatable experiments.
* Science Lab Module
If getting the data back to the labs is not an option, you’ll now be able to get the lab itself to the data instead. With antennas not able to max out a subject anymore, the Lab Module will allow you to increase the max amount of science you get from transmitting, by giving your crews a way to run tests and analyze the experiment results ‘in the field’, before beaming it back home. Don’t expect this to be a compact piece of equipment though. In fact, not many parts are larger than the Lab at the moment.
* EVA Data Transport
With new ways to process experiment data, we’re also going to need new ways to move it around. EVAs will now be able to collect and store not only their own experiments, but also collect data from other modules and data containers, including other Kerbals on EVA.
* Quite a lot of other stuff
Overhauled UIs, 3D Mouse Support, Monopropellant-powered EVAs, Steerable landing gear, Secondary propellants for engines, more Biomes, and of course, hunting down some of the most critical long-standing bugs… The list goes on.
So these are our highlights. As always, these topics are our goals for the next release, and do not imply a commitment on our part to deliver them. If something doesn’t make it in time, we’ll push it back, and conversely, we could even end up adding stuff that’s not on this list, so the bottom line is, we aren’t writing this in stone.
So I'd installed MechJeb recently and played around with it some this weekend.
I like the deltaV info that it adds.
I also unlocked the Ascent Module autopilot function yesterday and decided to try it out. The results were ... interesting. Either my rocket design is way funky or MechJeb isn't perfect, but it couldn't get out of the atmosphere, let alone to a stable Kerbin orbit. It decided to flip the rocket upside down once during the ascent. Possibly trying to correct (or deal with) the rotation that starts nearly at launch and persists until I get nearly to space. (this is about the time I've dropped the two asparagus staged ascent rockets)
I used this same design to get to and land on the Mun. The same basic design has also inserted a space probe into a polar Duna orbit. (I suspect I may be using too much rocket. ... Nope, that can't be it. No such thing.)
Those 0.23 changes look nice. I'll have to build a Lab lander and see how many orbital bodies I can land it on. Starting with the Mun and Minimus.
Posts
Everyone places their line of "That'd be a waste" somewhere between 'dividing' wealth and driving 'progress'. I think the "You either feed everyone or you go to the moon." is a false dichotomy, though. Plus I think the indirect benefits have more than paid for themselves, but people suffering from malnutrition and starvation in the 1960s in the US would likely disagree.
Space is crazy.
I haven't played any KSP since i realized LOR mission profiles give you pooscience, does anyone know if they're some sort of addon that fixes the data storage for that mission profile?
But for all I know that already exists.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
This is all i could think of when i first heard of those 'be the first to live on mars!' missions that private companies are talking about... how could those end in anything other than one (or more) of the people going absolutely bat shit fucking insane and killing all the others.
I mean they talked about having everyone thoroughly checked out and everything to make sure they are mentally stable but we have zero experience with anyone living on a planet so far from us, even just *knowing* you will never be able to go home, that has to weigh heavily...
Is this where I should point out MARS 500?
Also, I have learned that approaching Gilly going 1000 m/s does not end well 3000 m above the surface when your 20 tons of rocket fuel explodes in a ball of gravitational fury. I've also learned that the MechJeb node editor is great for creating encounters before the "ideal" window the planner recommends.
Pfft, 80 days of cycling around Kerbin. How about 5 hours to our node for a highly elliptical Eve injection (...that will then happen 20 days later)?
Plus, folks these days wouldn't even be stuck incommunicado. Along with the huge volumes of entertainment material that could now be digitally stored, there's no reason that a ship wouldn't be able to recieve daily information broadcasts about all sorts of crap, along with communications from friends and family. And something like the Oculus Rift actually does offer a way a possible means of combating psychological issues of cramped conditions, which could be a powerful tool. That sort of travel wouldn't be for everybody, sure, but I'm entirely certain you could find people who could handle that sort of situation for that long, especially highly dedicated, trained, intelligent individuals.
Far, far more important would be the physiological problems created by extended zero-gravity exposure, such as bone and muscle wastage. Until we develop ways to combat those, either through figuring out how to counter the effects through medication or a way to simulate Earth-normal gravity, the amount of time that can be spent in space will be pretty restricted. The radiation is definitely a thing, sure, but that's just a matter of getting a ship shielded, which is easier to deal with than the low-G issues, at the moment.
It's almost definitely a thrust issue - the ideal burn is to dump all your dV instantly at Pe X to raise the Ap to Y, which of course isn't really possible. Since they probably have a low-thrust-high-efficiency engine, they do the next best thing, which is several small burns at the same point in the orbit.
I think there are efficient ways to do a "spiral" ascent, where you're essentially burning very low-thrust engines constantly to widen the orbit, but India's way sounds technically simpler.
The other possibility is that KSP engines have a flat ISP value, whereas I suspect real engines probably have variable efficiency based on throttle setting. So the engine may have been capable of produing enough thrust in one burn, but not at optimal fuel efficiency.
Either way, not worth the trouble in KSP, though, in hindsight, those numbers might start to change with much larger burn times that have you burning for a more significant portion of your orbital path. In my test my orbit was roughly 30 minutes, so 18 seconds was a drop In the bucket.
I'm wondering if there's enough to be gained from keep the burns really short to let you carry another kilogram or two of payload though (I believe it was about 1400 kg to orbit for them). If that's the case, that could be another instrument, which would absolutely be worthwhile.
I'm sure it was only gaining them a very small amount of extra deltaV to get another couple of Kg. But unlike KSP, real space launches are very finely tuned to where doing things like short burns only at AP/PE, or multiple gravity slingshots, moving your entire launch platform to a large ship on the equator, etc. begin to make sense.
If you have a really low-thrust engine and your orbit is only so many hours long, a burn of 5-10 minutes is a pretty significant chunk of the orbit, and so you end up with apoapsis moving all over the place. You just keep looping around and doing brief burns at periapsis; takes a while, but it's probably the most efficient way it can be done.
Just hope the Indian government doesn't have to call tech support for their Mechjeb; I don't think the universe could handle that result of outsourcing call centers. :P
0.22 is the latest version of KSP, looks like the current version of Mechjeb is 2.1: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/12384-PART-0-22-Anatid-Robotics-MuMech-MechJeb-Autopilot-v2-1
There is a cheap solution to this where you put one half of a docking port right on top of your VTOL, then when you are landing, right click it and select "Control from Here" and where the port is pointing is the new "foward" as far as the nav ball and docking mode are concerned.
Parody of Payphone.
edit: according to the ksp forums all the planets in the mod pack have been landed on using cheats, but apparently there are several that have never been legit landed on. They've all been made purposefully difficult to get to and land on.
Shogun Streams Vidya
Fly it, and then right click on a command module (the cupola, a docking port, etc.). It'll have a "rename vessel" option, which also lets you reclassify it.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
by HarvesteR View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message View Blog Entries View Articles Published on 5th November 2013 14:08 178 Comments Hi,
It’s time to talk about our goals for the next update. As you all know, we’re on a major push to develop Career Mode, but after a release as large as 0.22 was, we needed to have an update to catch up on all the stuff we’ve added, fix bugs and revisit some of the features in the last update. This is all so we can start off the next big thing on Career Mode with a game that’s as stable and polished as we can make it.
So these are our main goals for 0.23:
* All-Around Optimizations
We’re going through each line of game code and making sure things are getting done as efficiently as possible. We’re also optimizing the asset loaders to reduce loading times, and upgrading to the latest version of Unity, to take advantage of all its new tweaks and fixes.
* The Science Archives
Collecting scientific data isn’t just about advancing the tech tree. The Science Archives will be a new section on the R&D Facility, which lets you review all the data you’ve accumulated to date. This is your library to view all the knowledge you’ve gathered for Kerbalkind. Also, this overview should help plan future missions.
* Tweakables
This long-awaited feature is finally coming with this update. Tweakables will allow you to open a context menu for each part during construction. This allows for unprecedented freedom in design and setup of a spacecraft. Want your wingtip control surfaces to act only as ailerons? Or your landing gear to start deployed or retracted, or to make some of them steerable? Tweakables will allow for all that, plus many other adjustments.
* Science Revisited
We too have been playing the newly-implemented Career Mode, and taking in all the feedback from the community. We are changing a few things to make Science much more interesting:
* The Transmission logic is being redone, so no matter how many batteries you’ve got, you won’t be able to max out a subject by just using antennas.
* We’re also changing the way experiments allow being reset, so don’t get too attached to those endlessly-repeatable experiments.
* Science Lab Module
If getting the data back to the labs is not an option, you’ll now be able to get the lab itself to the data instead. With antennas not able to max out a subject anymore, the Lab Module will allow you to increase the max amount of science you get from transmitting, by giving your crews a way to run tests and analyze the experiment results ‘in the field’, before beaming it back home. Don’t expect this to be a compact piece of equipment though. In fact, not many parts are larger than the Lab at the moment.
* EVA Data Transport
With new ways to process experiment data, we’re also going to need new ways to move it around. EVAs will now be able to collect and store not only their own experiments, but also collect data from other modules and data containers, including other Kerbals on EVA.
* Quite a lot of other stuff
Overhauled UIs, 3D Mouse Support, Monopropellant-powered EVAs, Steerable landing gear, Secondary propellants for engines, more Biomes, and of course, hunting down some of the most critical long-standing bugs… The list goes on.
So these are our highlights. As always, these topics are our goals for the next release, and do not imply a commitment on our part to deliver them. If something doesn’t make it in time, we’ll push it back, and conversely, we could even end up adding stuff that’s not on this list, so the bottom line is, we aren’t writing this in stone.
Stay tuned for more news as we develop them.
Happy Launchings!
Cheers
What do you mean no support? LOR is how I've always done my moon landings. Or are the necessary items locked behind SCIENCE?
http://steamcommunity.com/id/pablocampy
I like the deltaV info that it adds.
I also unlocked the Ascent Module autopilot function yesterday and decided to try it out. The results were ... interesting. Either my rocket design is way funky or MechJeb isn't perfect, but it couldn't get out of the atmosphere, let alone to a stable Kerbin orbit. It decided to flip the rocket upside down once during the ascent. Possibly trying to correct (or deal with) the rotation that starts nearly at launch and persists until I get nearly to space. (this is about the time I've dropped the two asparagus staged ascent rockets)
I used this same design to get to and land on the Mun. The same basic design has also inserted a space probe into a polar Duna orbit. (I suspect I may be using too much rocket. ... Nope, that can't be it. No such thing.)
Those 0.23 changes look nice. I'll have to build a Lab lander and see how many orbital bodies I can land it on. Starting with the Mun and Minimus.