I think you're discounting just how strong some of the traditional supports are with gold.
Right now, yeah. Both Lulu and Sona are pretty terrifying on Dominion. My concern is that the buffs supports are receiving on the PBE (generally movement speed buff ratios for the mage supports) won't compensate, in terms of overall usefulness, for some of the damage nerfs that they're also seeing. They're strong with items but not that strong.
Hell, compare Sona to Annie; Annie has higher base damage, better ratios and stronger CC. Are Sona's W and E enough to make her a more (or even equally) valuable pick in the eyes of most players? I'm not convinced that they will be.
Fuck support mages. Now Leona's resistances scale with her resistances (yo dawg). Let's be an unstoppable stunbot. Stun away, you crazy bitch, stun away.
I think supports are going to see a lot of additional tuning during the preseason. Utility+Damage supports like Annie, Thresh, Fiddle are hugely strong right now and I see that issue being amplified by the increased goldflow to support. Probably see less of Thresh because of his really weak scaling. I would say Blitz is going to replace him with how terrifying an itemized Blitz is but Blitz is still melee which is a huge weakness in lane, doubly so if you ever get behind.
Interested to see how things shake out. It's a shame we won't see any interim tournies with new patches between the international showmatches (that I believe will be on the current patch, according to a recent pro interview) and probably LCS Winter or Spring or whatever they're calling it.
I would love to see a "fuck around" tournament on the preseason where teams test the limits of the current season changes and try to break the game, it would be hilarious.
I've seen Galio used a few times as a support, he's alright at it. He's got a higher move speed than Zyra so that's not a big issue; his main problem is that without items he doesn't deal much damage, can't survive that many hits and doesn't bring quite enough utility to compensate.
With the preseason changes he might be pretty good in the role, but that's going to be true for a ton of characters.
I would love to see a "fuck around" tournament on the preseason where teams test the limits of the current season changes and try to break the game, it would be hilarious.
Dota 2 had some hilarious tourney games right after a recent patch, would be nice if lol had something similar.
Riot seems to be allergic to tournaments apart from lcs sadly, so seems like not much will happen.
They've said that the NA/EU showmatches they're doing alongside the Promotion Tournament will be on the S4 preseason patch. So we will get to see pro teams have no idea what the hell is going on, which is always fun.
Galio's alright but he is (and will continue to be) outclassed by a lot of other supports.
Was watching Wildurtle play Heimer for the first time.. in a challenger ranked game. It's comforting seeing someone that mechanically gifted make so many honest mistakes just because he has no idea what he can do.
After a night of trying to climb out of Bronze, I started wondering about the matchmaker system. In League, if A, who is Diamond 1, were to duo with his friend B, who has never played ranked before, and win despite his friend maybe not being Diamond play level for B's placements would that have an effect on where B gets placed in ranked? I mean if he is technically playing against other diamonds and getting wins, won't the matchmaker try to move him toward it despite B being unranked?
The silly question that arises at 8am after a night of League.
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
Well, I had to end the season with an unfinished promo series to silver. I'd gotten 1 game out of 5 played, a win, but got some bad news on a personal end that made it where I couldn't really play at all most of the weekend. Ah well. Feel like I probably had a shot there too. Well, maybe next time.
5 brands. just think if your teammates can ablaze people for you. or 5 swains where the torment transfers between people. or 4 xeraths hitting E while the last one just ults away.
Though I would really love to see a return of Urgot. one canister lands and whole team can long range bomb.
don't know if the abilities will really work that way. but i'm having trouble understanding how they will slow down snowballing and release this game mode.
Tryndamere's splitpushing is THE FUCKING DUMBEST THING
did your team have lots of cc?
No, not that it mattered since he took down a tower and inhib by the time anyone could go back to stop him. But whatever, I lost 4 games in a row at Bronze I 0 LP without getting demoted, I should probably quit while I'm still ahead.
Tryndamere's splitpushing is THE FUCKING DUMBEST THING
did your team have lots of cc?
No, not that it mattered since he took down a tower and inhib by the time anyone could go back to stop him. But whatever, I lost 4 games in a row at Bronze I 0 LP without getting demoted, I should probably quit while I'm still ahead.
Even though she's a much worse champion than those two, Quinn is a good design too.
I can't really agree with that, nothing about her makes sense. And I personally like the simplicity in the design of many of the older champions.
Quinn suffers from an ult that isn't actually useful for fighting things, being better for cleaning up (GET BACK HERE), getting places, or as a last-ditch ghost. If she's building normal marksperson, she can't use it to fight, and it costs her her burst.
I use her ult for fighting all the time, just in small skirmishes, not in full 5v5's.
Tryndamere's splitpushing is THE FUCKING DUMBEST THING
did your team have lots of cc?
No, not that it mattered since he took down a tower and inhib by the time anyone could go back to stop him. But whatever, I lost 4 games in a row at Bronze I 0 LP without getting demoted, I should probably quit while I'm still ahead.
Even though she's a much worse champion than those two, Quinn is a good design too.
I can't really agree with that, nothing about her makes sense. And I personally like the simplicity in the design of many of the older champions.
Quinn suffers from an ult that isn't actually useful for fighting things, being better for cleaning up (GET BACK HERE), getting places, or as a last-ditch ghost. If she's building normal marksperson, she can't use it to fight, and it costs her her burst.
Truthfully though i do not mind mobility and clean up on an ult. It can't be bullshit abused like some other mobility abilities and it allows the rest of the kit to be comparatively powerful.
Quinn's only problem is that AD tops aren't really a thing because they're not Jax, Shen, or Renekton.
Renekton isn't scary for Quinn at all, at least not in my experience.
I should've been more specific, but I meant Quinn's kit is well-designed, not that I think she's well designed as a standard bot lane ADC. She's strong in lane but I wouldn't particularly want her on my team as the only marksman. I happen to be a huge fan of double AD teams, which is why I play Ezreal/Sivir/Quinn/Lucian mid lane quite often. Just farm, and focus on towers and objectives. Having 2 marksmen on your team with 3 items mid game means you kill towers/dragons/barons very fast and easy, and if it comes time to fight, the sustained DPS on your team should be very good even if you lack burst.
Quinn is a good candidate for going top/mid because her passive and E let her harass very well in a lot of matchups, and she's a good split pusher. She's very hard to 1v1 between her blind, her vault, and her ult. Plus she utterly dominates Tryndamere in lane so she works well as a counter to a champ that is often hard to deal with.
Not to mention, her ult is a lot more useful in team fights than it's sometimes given credit for. It's not at all uncommon for team fights to break down into both ADCs getting knocked down under half health and having to disengage a fight. However, if Quinn keeps vision of the enemy ADC she can just ult, run at them, dive on them, blind them, attack a couple times and execute them while their team is still trying to 4v4 your team. All the better if you're top/mid Quinn so your team's bot lane ADC is still fighting the 4v4.
If I'm understanding this right, it looks like Riot isn't going to reset the ranked ladder until *after* the Season 4 preseason. So no placement matches until Season 4 starts properly.
Going to get this messaging out early, as we'll have more official words next week. The plan is to actually NOT do a soft reset on ranked play during preseason, especially with the huge changes we have planned on the way.
We'll be doing that soft reset at the start of the 2014 season when everyone's all trained up from the preseason. MORE INFO TO COME NEXT WEEK (er, this week?).
And for anyone that asks, "Why play ranked during preseason?" - your standings you get to during the preseason will have an influence on where you initially seed during the 2014 season. We wanted to create a competitive environment for players to stew in during the preseason, but we really didn't want you dictating an entire season's worth of ranked placement during a tumultuous time (BLACK CLEAVAAAAR).
he's a very situational pick. for example he takes a big stinky one all over fizz, or if they take 4 AP's and Corki...
Very situational though, that being said, his mana cost reductions have made him much more playable.
still you only bring him out in the right situation, like i'm 23-12 with him in ranked this season, but that's only due to pulling him out at the right time.
Galio's viable as a counterpick to AP assassins in mid. He dumps on Katarina, for example. Unfortunately, his atrocious cooldowns and low-ish base damage (IIRC, just feels that way, I could be wrong, I'm not checking right now) would make him non-ideal as a support. Plus, he'd be a melee support without good pre-6 peel or a gap close. Soooooo...yeah, don't do this.
(NB - I have an irrational hatred for Galio and hate him ever since I bought him and was hella disappointed.)
It's also insanely easy to break Galio's ult. It's telegraphed a mile away when he wants to run at your team to do it, especially when his flash isn't up, and all you need is one person to use an interrupt on it and suddenly he's useless.
It's also insanely easy to break Galio's ult. It's telegraphed a mile away when he wants to run at your team to do it, especially when his flash isn't up, and all you need is one person to use an interrupt on it and suddenly he's useless.
Or the enemy team has an udyr in bear, a xin with 3 talon primed, blitz, etc. etc. etc.
Renekton isn't scary for Quinn at all, at least not in my experience.
True. But she also isn't Renekton which is the primary problem. In the current meta, top lane needs to be able to split push top alone and be able to kill any one person on the enemy team who comes to defend while also being able to survive any two members of the enemy team. Why do they need to do this? Because Renketon, Shen, and Jax can all do that. And one of Renekton, Shen, or Jax counters pretty much every 1v1 champion in the game.
Sure she beats Jax and Renekton early (not sure about late) but that doesn't matter because the enemy top laner doesn't have to defend top lane. The enemy AP, who doesn't care about blind, can probably buy Zhonya, and can probably wave clear can rotate top and defend against you once they have their primary tanky/AP items(which they should be able to get before you get your last whisper... which purchasing means you can't get tanky until your third item). Your only response to this as Quinn is to 1v1 someone you're not good at 1v1ing or go back to your team and try to team fight as Quinn.
Also I think Shen should beat her; Q spam her if you get ahead. Shield yourself when you're marked. Taunt to secure ganks.
edit: Basically thinking about Quinn's Kit she benefits primarily from high base AD items; AD penetration items; and tank items. However because all of her scaling is in bonus AD she doesn't scale well unless she has some AD items. She also needs some lifesteal because she has no inherent sustain.
Think about the mixed defensive AD items and they're pretty bad, especially for a ranged champion like Quinn.
Atma's: Not very strong; Scales on HP which you don't have. Gives crit which you don't need. Only strong if they keep their physical damage based top against you
Mercurial: Expensive: Requires QSS which is only strong if the enemy AP comes top and is otherwise a lot of gold dumped into resistances with no offensive benefit
Zeke's: Aura item so very inefficient on a duelist
Black Cleaver: Good, but only 200 HP makes it a secondary item
Frozen Mallet: Very good but don't get much benefit from passive because you have a massive slow already and huge move speed buffs for 1v1 with your ult.
If you go Cleaver->Mallet you've got no sustain: Brut->BT->Mallet->Cleaver is probably your best bet. But that is still pretty lategame to get your HP and primary penetration which leaves you weak to the AP rotation.
Renekton isn't scary for Quinn at all, at least not in my experience.
True. But she also isn't Renekton which is the primary problem. In the current meta, top lane needs to be able to split push top alone and be able to kill any one person on the enemy team who comes to defend while also being able to survive any two members of the enemy team. Why do they need to do this? Because Renketon, Shen, and Jax can all do that. And one of Renekton, Shen, or Jax counters pretty much every 1v1 champion in the game.
Sure she beats Jax and Renekton early (not sure about late) but that doesn't matter because the enemy top laner doesn't have to defend top lane. The enemy AP, who doesn't care about blind, can probably buy Zhonya, and can probably wave clear can rotate top and defend against you once they have their primary tanky/AP items(which they should be able to get before you get your last whisper... which purchasing means you can't get tanky until your third item). Your only response to this as Quinn is to 1v1 someone you're not good at 1v1ing or go back to your team and try to team fight as Quinn.
Also I think Shen should beat her; Q spam her if you get ahead. Shield yourself when you're marked. Taunt to secure ganks.
I don't disagree at all. I pick her top lane as a counterpick, not as a blind pick. I've played the matchup against shen, and he loses early 1v1. However, like you said, if he gets ahead he can go to town on her. The opposite is true as well though, if she gets ahead of him he'll never really be able to fight her. Vault also counts as an interupt, so you can poop all over his ultimates, and you can follow him across the map with bird form if it comes to that.
Vs Renekton though, it feels very easy to keep your spacing, and it's easy to get out if he does manage to gap close onto you. I think, like any other ADC full item Quinn will kill full item Renekton. Especially once you have movement speed. Her passive on W gives you - I think - 50 extra MS when you proc Harrier, which is massive! I have run Quinn with Furor boots, Phage, + Maxed W. I was the greatest kiter in the universe.
Oh, saw your edit for itemization. I build less tanky and more top kite and have AD. I've built triforce before because it gives a little bit of everything and because movespeed is so good on her. Once against top lane Zed I got a BORK and Frozen Fist. This allowed me to sustain his burst and then push him back out. After that I just got a BT and a LW.
Having blind means that you don't need TONS of HP, and your W gives you like +70% attack speed as Valor so as long as you have an OK HP pool, you can lifesteal tank very well in a 1v1 duel. Also remember that generally after you use blind, you have a few seconds of free HP gain from lifesteal.
Man now I really want to play some Quinn! If anyone is down to play with me while I pimp my shitty laptop, let me know.
in that situation shouldn't your mid be now playing against someone they're really good at killing?
On the rest of the map it would be 4v4 your mid,jungle, adc, support vs their top, jungle, adc, support. Maybe you have a slight advantage in that. Maybe their mid kills you and then they 5v4 your team.
edit: At pac: The problem with Phage is that triforce isn't that strong on her compared to raw AD/Penetration. So while Phage isn't bad you're going to be delaying your primary items which are, in my mind. BT, BC/Whisper, and Mallet. This can put you at a disadvantage because of the increased efficiency of upgrading items
Dominated in a ranked game yesterday as Riven. When I'm ahead, I absolutely love her. She's so unbelievably strong at carrying teams.
But when you're behind she's just more meat for the grinder.
I feel like I can play her when I've advantaged, but I have no idea what to do if I'm behind. Maybe I should just play her on dominion to get a better understanding.
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pyromaniac221this just might bean interestin YTRegistered Userregular
I played a game as top riven the other day against a vladimir and I put him in the trash can and got so big that at one point I 1v2'd their mid and ADC and got an inhibitor.
We lost because I told my team to siege and disengage while I split push but they kept going in and dying 4v5 (or even 4v4 or 4v3 when they sent people to deal with me) and then yelled at me for throwing.
If you're ahead though, Riven is one of the best team fighting champs in the game. Why not just group with your team and win? Was there something about their comp that discouraged you from doing so?
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Right now, yeah. Both Lulu and Sona are pretty terrifying on Dominion. My concern is that the buffs supports are receiving on the PBE (generally movement speed buff ratios for the mage supports) won't compensate, in terms of overall usefulness, for some of the damage nerfs that they're also seeing. They're strong with items but not that strong.
Hell, compare Sona to Annie; Annie has higher base damage, better ratios and stronger CC. Are Sona's W and E enough to make her a more (or even equally) valuable pick in the eyes of most players? I'm not convinced that they will be.
He's going to feel really sluggish.
The nerfs seem a bit heavy; I don't know about everyone else, but he has never felt like a problem at my elo.
I don't really feel the ratio's on her W actually mean that much, she's tanky enough to do her job anyway.
Interested to see how things shake out. It's a shame we won't see any interim tournies with new patches between the international showmatches (that I believe will be on the current patch, according to a recent pro interview) and probably LCS Winter or Spring or whatever they're calling it.
I'm guessing his appalling move speed would be a big minus...
With the preseason changes he might be pretty good in the role, but that's going to be true for a ton of characters.
Dota 2 had some hilarious tourney games right after a recent patch, would be nice if lol had something similar.
Riot seems to be allergic to tournaments apart from lcs sadly, so seems like not much will happen.
Was watching Wildurtle play Heimer for the first time.. in a challenger ranked game. It's comforting seeing someone that mechanically gifted make so many honest mistakes just because he has no idea what he can do.
The silly question that arises at 8am after a night of League.
Joe's Stream.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Though I would really love to see a return of Urgot. one canister lands and whole team can long range bomb.
don't know if the abilities will really work that way. but i'm having trouble understanding how they will slow down snowballing and release this game mode.
Pin everyone in place, push every wave, give zero fucks.
I really really like galio.
But he really really isn't good at the moment.
Everything about her kit makes sense when you realize she's an anti-auto attack duelist!
I use her ult for fighting all the time, just in small skirmishes, not in full 5v5's.
Renekton isn't scary for Quinn at all, at least not in my experience.
A) Not mages
C) Not grouped up enemy teams
Quinn is a good candidate for going top/mid because her passive and E let her harass very well in a lot of matchups, and she's a good split pusher. She's very hard to 1v1 between her blind, her vault, and her ult. Plus she utterly dominates Tryndamere in lane so she works well as a counter to a champ that is often hard to deal with.
Not to mention, her ult is a lot more useful in team fights than it's sometimes given credit for. It's not at all uncommon for team fights to break down into both ADCs getting knocked down under half health and having to disengage a fight. However, if Quinn keeps vision of the enemy ADC she can just ult, run at them, dive on them, blind them, attack a couple times and execute them while their team is still trying to 4v4 your team. All the better if you're top/mid Quinn so your team's bot lane ADC is still fighting the 4v4.
Edit: Woops I missed Burnage's post on this
he's a very situational pick. for example he takes a big stinky one all over fizz, or if they take 4 AP's and Corki...
Very situational though, that being said, his mana cost reductions have made him much more playable.
still you only bring him out in the right situation, like i'm 23-12 with him in ranked this season, but that's only due to pulling him out at the right time.
Joe's Stream.
(NB - I have an irrational hatred for Galio and hate him ever since I bought him and was hella disappointed.)
Or the enemy team has an udyr in bear, a xin with 3 talon primed, blitz, etc. etc. etc.
why you no enter?
?
Joe's Stream.
True. But she also isn't Renekton which is the primary problem. In the current meta, top lane needs to be able to split push top alone and be able to kill any one person on the enemy team who comes to defend while also being able to survive any two members of the enemy team. Why do they need to do this? Because Renketon, Shen, and Jax can all do that. And one of Renekton, Shen, or Jax counters pretty much every 1v1 champion in the game.
Sure she beats Jax and Renekton early (not sure about late) but that doesn't matter because the enemy top laner doesn't have to defend top lane. The enemy AP, who doesn't care about blind, can probably buy Zhonya, and can probably wave clear can rotate top and defend against you once they have their primary tanky/AP items(which they should be able to get before you get your last whisper... which purchasing means you can't get tanky until your third item). Your only response to this as Quinn is to 1v1 someone you're not good at 1v1ing or go back to your team and try to team fight as Quinn.
Also I think Shen should beat her; Q spam her if you get ahead. Shield yourself when you're marked. Taunt to secure ganks.
edit: Basically thinking about Quinn's Kit she benefits primarily from high base AD items; AD penetration items; and tank items. However because all of her scaling is in bonus AD she doesn't scale well unless she has some AD items. She also needs some lifesteal because she has no inherent sustain.
Think about the mixed defensive AD items and they're pretty bad, especially for a ranged champion like Quinn.
Atma's: Not very strong; Scales on HP which you don't have. Gives crit which you don't need. Only strong if they keep their physical damage based top against you
Mercurial: Expensive: Requires QSS which is only strong if the enemy AP comes top and is otherwise a lot of gold dumped into resistances with no offensive benefit
Zeke's: Aura item so very inefficient on a duelist
Black Cleaver: Good, but only 200 HP makes it a secondary item
Frozen Mallet: Very good but don't get much benefit from passive because you have a massive slow already and huge move speed buffs for 1v1 with your ult.
If you go Cleaver->Mallet you've got no sustain: Brut->BT->Mallet->Cleaver is probably your best bet. But that is still pretty lategame to get your HP and primary penetration which leaves you weak to the AP rotation.
I don't disagree at all. I pick her top lane as a counterpick, not as a blind pick. I've played the matchup against shen, and he loses early 1v1. However, like you said, if he gets ahead he can go to town on her. The opposite is true as well though, if she gets ahead of him he'll never really be able to fight her. Vault also counts as an interupt, so you can poop all over his ultimates, and you can follow him across the map with bird form if it comes to that.
Vs Renekton though, it feels very easy to keep your spacing, and it's easy to get out if he does manage to gap close onto you. I think, like any other ADC full item Quinn will kill full item Renekton. Especially once you have movement speed. Her passive on W gives you - I think - 50 extra MS when you proc Harrier, which is massive! I have run Quinn with Furor boots, Phage, + Maxed W. I was the greatest kiter in the universe.
Oh, saw your edit for itemization. I build less tanky and more top kite and have AD. I've built triforce before because it gives a little bit of everything and because movespeed is so good on her. Once against top lane Zed I got a BORK and Frozen Fist. This allowed me to sustain his burst and then push him back out. After that I just got a BT and a LW.
Having blind means that you don't need TONS of HP, and your W gives you like +70% attack speed as Valor so as long as you have an OK HP pool, you can lifesteal tank very well in a 1v1 duel. Also remember that generally after you use blind, you have a few seconds of free HP gain from lifesteal.
Man now I really want to play some Quinn! If anyone is down to play with me while I pimp my shitty laptop, let me know.
On the rest of the map it would be 4v4 your mid,jungle, adc, support vs their top, jungle, adc, support. Maybe you have a slight advantage in that. Maybe their mid kills you and then they 5v4 your team.
edit: At pac: The problem with Phage is that triforce isn't that strong on her compared to raw AD/Penetration. So while Phage isn't bad you're going to be delaying your primary items which are, in my mind. BT, BC/Whisper, and Mallet. This can put you at a disadvantage because of the increased efficiency of upgrading items
Dominated in a ranked game yesterday as Riven. When I'm ahead, I absolutely love her. She's so unbelievably strong at carrying teams.
But when you're behind she's just more meat for the grinder.
I feel like I can play her when I've advantaged, but I have no idea what to do if I'm behind. Maybe I should just play her on dominion to get a better understanding.
We lost because I told my team to siege and disengage while I split push but they kept going in and dying 4v5 (or even 4v4 or 4v3 when they sent people to deal with me) and then yelled at me for throwing.