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[WOW] I guess there's an Expansion coming out this year ? Maybe ?

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Posts

  • PapaganderPapagander Registered User regular
    Crayon wrote: »
    Oh, for sure-there's people always coming and going after they down a boss that they needed, but I guess because of my server any role is replaced almost immediately. I guess as a healer I don't see the long queues, and I surely feel sorry for anyone that has to go through them. To be honest, I've experienced almost no name calling/L2Play NOOB/etc at all in LFR. However, where I have experienced it on both my healer and tank is in flex being filled by Oqueue. I've seen some horrid things being said to other players in there. I tend to just be quiet, explain the fights, say try to have a good time and that we'll make it through.

    I think its safe to say your luck is being wasted on LFR and you're having the LFR experience on Flex through Oqueue. Which makes sense, Oqueue is more or less doing for you for flex what LFR does for fogies like me who refuse to use add-ons. The only difference, far as I can really tell, is that LFR is kind of meant to be the dumping ground. I still believe treating people with respect is a thing, and a good thing, but with flex being closer to Normal raiding I can also see the QQing. Not really, but I try to stretch my perception now and then.

    Like, I understand if I was--magically--to get an invite to a guild normal raid and I brought the suck they might call me names and kick me out. There's an expectation that normal raiding requires certain levels of skills, and besides, the guild prolly had some requirements I agreed to before joining their run. In a similar sense, taking the time to get an add-on and using it to experience a slightly higher level of content implies a slightly higher level of gaming proficiency. Again, I'm not condoning poor sportsmen ship and all-around asshattery. I just understand the impulse in those higher tiers, I guess.

    But LFR's been a thing for far longer than i've come back to experience it. Everyone knows what to expect in LFR. People being dicks in LFR is just people who are Dicks (with a capital, mind you) wanting someplace to stick it. If I had a way to, in game or out, I'd cut that shit right off. Most people can and will improve their game-play if a kind soul is patient. You being so in LFR prolly helped contribute to your experiences being so positive. I don't mind LFR at all anymore, although the time investment is rough. But that's why I'll take any and all difficulty nerfs I can get.

    “There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
    XBOne | LyrKing
    forty
  • sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Alrighty y'all, I need some help --

    I've been away from WoW for a while. (About 5 months). I had previously been playing an Alliance Druid, and he's pretty decently geared with LFR gear. There's a long story about why I had been playing him, which isn't really relevant here. Needless to say, my main characters are all Horde, and I've got the most nostalgic connection with my Horde characters.

    I've got an Orc Rogue, who is level 71. He's a Miner/Engineer, and he's currently wearing a healthy mix of T4/T5 gear from Kara/SSC/TK. He was my raid character during the height of Burning Crusade. I retired him when Lich King released in favor of switching to a DK.

    I'm thinking of taking my rogue out of retirement and playing him for a while, getting him up to 90, and perhaps maining him during the unannounced expansion.

    That brings me to why I need your help:

    I don't know how to rogue anymore. I haven't played a rogue since I retired my Orc at the end of BC, and things have changed so dramatically since then that I really don't know anything about the class anymore. I'm looking for some very basic, almost newbie level advice on how to start playing this character again.

    When I retired him, he was Combat spec, because that was the top raid spec in BC. Here's an armory link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Kragos/simple

    Anyway, what is the best leveling spec these days? I'm planning on taking him to 90 and will most likely be doing each dungeon exactly one time, and the rest of my XP will come from questing.

    And after I hit 90, what is the best dungeon spec to begin gearing up in heroics? And finally, after I get into some heroic gear, what is the best spec to begin farming LFR with?

    If there's any other relevant or noteworthy information, please feel free to share. Even though I have a TON of experience on this character, it is all very old experience and the game has changed a lot since then. At this point I feel almost like a new character with my complete lack of knowledge of how to play this guy.

    I love http://www.icy-veins.com it tells you what buttons to press in the right order, the rogue rotation really isn't rocket science it's pretty simple.

    forty
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Thok down. Fuck yea.

    I gave the raid a heart attack by kiting him so close which was hilarious.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
    Currently DMing: None :(
    Characters
    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
    Smrtnik
  • EnialisEnialis Registered User regular
    LFR would probably get a lot better if they added any sort of feedback into it as to how well you personally were doing. The questing/leveling game in no way prepares you how to optimally DPS/tank/heal in a raid environment. If anything LFR provides positive reinforcement as you can queue, push your buttons, do 40k DPS (but w/o running your own meter have no idea how much you're doing or even what an appropriate level of damage is), get loot & valor and reasonably assume you helped the team.

    CrayonHalfmexforty
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Yay got protectors and norushen heroic this week. Not too bad, did most of our protectors learning last week and honestly should have killed them. Norushen is fairly easy, tight enrage but we just made healers pick up all the orbs so tank dps was higher, collect loot.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    Auuugh. Another entire night of wiping to Heroic Malkorok. Another night of people dying to normal mode mechanics. Lovely.

    We did get him to 18% once though.

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    No matter how many times we do it, I doubt I will ever get over how bullshit H Iron Juggernaut is. It seems like it'd be kinda easy with a normal ping, but with the Australian Disadvantage of 200+, it's a little hard to not get globalled.

    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    forty wrote: »
    Crayon wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    Crayon wrote: »
    My newest post comes from the anecdotal experience of feeling it didn't need to be nerfed further.
    It's safe to assume that Blizzard has all sorts of non-anecdotal data (# of 2+-hour clears; amount of deaths to various bosses, mechanics, trash mobs; determination stacks and /leaveraid rates; etc.) telling them that it did need it.

    It's like you responded to my anecdotal statement as if you don't know what anecdotal means. That's why I used the word anecdotal, and specifically said my personal experience, but hey-good to know! Thanks.
    I know full well what it means. I am posting to let you know that you are being a huge goose in this thread.

    I'm a huge goose because, from my personal experience, lfr shouldn't be nerfed? Okay. Good to know. I'll be sure to remember that openly admitting it's anecdotal is grounds for goosery.

    Crayon on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    When there's factual data (Blizz knows the average amount of wipes and stacks of determination every boss kill takes and what killed people every time they die as three big data points, and that's just a tiny bit of the data they gather) and tons of anecdotal evidence from not just people in this thread but people across the internet that supports LFR getting nerfed, being surprised/mad at it getting nerfed is being a bit blind to experiences other than yours.

    forty
  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Whelp, tonight was a good night. We managed to (barely) get our H-Protector's kill on our first pull. I coined a trinket off sha, got my transmog set, and we cleared 12 bosses in a single night.

    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
    Halfmex
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    we started working on heroic thok, oof

    NREqxl5.jpg
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    We WERE planning on doing H Shaman prog, but only 9 people turned up. On a raid team of 12 people, that's just fucking annoying.

    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
    forty
  • MonstyMonsty Registered User regular
    Getting random disconnects and issues with BNet suddenly. Apparently this has been going on for people for awhile now. :/

  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    When there's factual data (Blizz knows the average amount of wipes and stacks of determination every boss kill takes and what killed people every time they die as three big data points, and that's just a tiny bit of the data they gather) and tons of anecdotal evidence from not just people in this thread but people across the internet that supports LFR getting nerfed, being surprised/mad at it getting nerfed is being a bit blind to experiences other than yours.

    I believe that's why it's called anecdotal. Dear god, this is kind of circular at this point.

    I was wrong. My personal opinion that it shouldn't have been nerfed further is bad. Super bad and stupid.

    forty
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR is even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them. The nature of the random, functionally anonymous environment means that any level of difficulty winds up being too goddamn much for a lot of groups. Any mechanic that can't be brute forced at a relatively low level (determination) is always going to get removed quickly.

    NREqxl5.jpg
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
    CrayonHalfmexSmrtnikfortyEnialis
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    So last night one of our tanks is out sick, then the backup tank DCs so I end up tanking, and I end up screwing up a lot...I'm pissed off at myself for not paying more attention at tank mechanics for certain fights.

    At least I got two pieces of my Tier (shoulders and pants)

  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    Thok down. Fuck yea.

    I gave the raid a heart attack by kiting him so close which was hilarious.

    And I got Ashes after we called it for the night(!)

    Looking forward to final-3 starting next week! My loins are burning to get into HMs.

  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Alrighty y'all, I need some help --

    I've been away from WoW for a while. (About 5 months). I had previously been playing an Alliance Druid, and he's pretty decently geared with LFR gear. There's a long story about why I had been playing him, which isn't really relevant here. Needless to say, my main characters are all Horde, and I've got the most nostalgic connection with my Horde characters.

    I've got an Orc Rogue, who is level 71. He's a Miner/Engineer, and he's currently wearing a healthy mix of T4/T5 gear from Kara/SSC/TK. He was my raid character during the height of Burning Crusade. I retired him when Lich King released in favor of switching to a DK.

    I'm thinking of taking my rogue out of retirement and playing him for a while, getting him up to 90, and perhaps maining him during the unannounced expansion.

    That brings me to why I need your help:

    I don't know how to rogue anymore. I haven't played a rogue since I retired my Orc at the end of BC, and things have changed so dramatically since then that I really don't know anything about the class anymore. I'm looking for some very basic, almost newbie level advice on how to start playing this character again.

    When I retired him, he was Combat spec, because that was the top raid spec in BC. Here's an armory link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Kragos/simple

    Anyway, what is the best leveling spec these days? I'm planning on taking him to 90 and will most likely be doing each dungeon exactly one time, and the rest of my XP will come from questing.

    And after I hit 90, what is the best dungeon spec to begin gearing up in heroics? And finally, after I get into some heroic gear, what is the best spec to begin farming LFR with?

    If there's any other relevant or noteworthy information, please feel free to share. Even though I have a TON of experience on this character, it is all very old experience and the game has changed a lot since then. At this point I feel almost like a new character with my complete lack of knowledge of how to play this guy.

    Re: Roguery -

    Leveling - Any spec is fine, though Combat as always edges ahead just due to the better cleave for packs of mobs and whatnot.

    Dungeoning - Not really necessary anymore thanks to the Timeless Isle (that is, hit 90, go over to the Isle, stealth around grabbing as many Moss-Covered Chests as you can, equip 496 gear which is T14 Normal raid equivalent), but if you want to do so just for the heck of it/acquire VP and JP, as with leveling, any spec works. However! Weapon damage matters FAR more in this expansion than it has in the past, so the 476s that you can get from the Timeless Isle item vendor (10k coins for 1H and 20k for 2H) are -passable-, but you'll want to get better ones from the ToT raid (which you'll be geared for easily from the Timeless Isle stuff) as soon as you can.

    Raids - Again, play whichever spec you prefer. I've always been an Assassination guy, but others live and die by Combat. Weapon speed isn't anything you need to be concerned with any longer, so if you do go Combat, pretty much any weapon will work fine.
    Enialis wrote: »
    LFR would probably get a lot better if they added any sort of feedback into it as to how well you personally were doing. The questing/leveling game in no way prepares you how to optimally DPS/tank/heal in a raid environment. If anything LFR provides positive reinforcement as you can queue, push your buttons, do 40k DPS (but w/o running your own meter have no idea how much you're doing or even what an appropriate level of damage is), get loot & valor and reasonably assume you helped the team.

    This is an excellent point, and one I really wish someone who was going to Blizzcon would bring up to the devs/blues (*hint hint* anyone here going to Blizzcon). The leveling game does not prepare you at all for the endgame, they may as well be two completely separate games. In fact, leveling gives you a tremendously false sense of security and comprehension because you pretty much steamroll over everything with little to no danger (understandably, because the idea is for you to get to the endgame ASAP so you can step on the gear treadmill). Until this changes, you'll get plenty of people in LFR who simply don't know any better than the two or three buttons they needed to hit to keep the non-elite packs of mobs dying on the way to the level cap.

    forty
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I don't remember if I said it on here, but I *really* want Thok as a mount. Like, really want it.

    CrayonNobodyKnight_
  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    I wish I could get more than one piece of tier in 4 weeks of running on either of my characters. I'd like that.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Alrighty y'all, I need some help --

    I've been away from WoW for a while. (About 5 months). I had previously been playing an Alliance Druid, and he's pretty decently geared with LFR gear. There's a long story about why I had been playing him, which isn't really relevant here. Needless to say, my main characters are all Horde, and I've got the most nostalgic connection with my Horde characters.

    I've got an Orc Rogue, who is level 71. He's a Miner/Engineer, and he's currently wearing a healthy mix of T4/T5 gear from Kara/SSC/TK. He was my raid character during the height of Burning Crusade. I retired him when Lich King released in favor of switching to a DK.

    I'm thinking of taking my rogue out of retirement and playing him for a while, getting him up to 90, and perhaps maining him during the unannounced expansion.

    That brings me to why I need your help:

    I don't know how to rogue anymore. I haven't played a rogue since I retired my Orc at the end of BC, and things have changed so dramatically since then that I really don't know anything about the class anymore. I'm looking for some very basic, almost newbie level advice on how to start playing this character again.

    When I retired him, he was Combat spec, because that was the top raid spec in BC. Here's an armory link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Kragos/simple

    Anyway, what is the best leveling spec these days? I'm planning on taking him to 90 and will most likely be doing each dungeon exactly one time, and the rest of my XP will come from questing.

    And after I hit 90, what is the best dungeon spec to begin gearing up in heroics? And finally, after I get into some heroic gear, what is the best spec to begin farming LFR with?

    If there's any other relevant or noteworthy information, please feel free to share. Even though I have a TON of experience on this character, it is all very old experience and the game has changed a lot since then. At this point I feel almost like a new character with my complete lack of knowledge of how to play this guy.

    Re: Roguery -

    Leveling - Any spec is fine, though Combat as always edges ahead just due to the better cleave for packs of mobs and whatnot.

    Dungeoning - Not really necessary anymore thanks to the Timeless Isle (that is, hit 90, go over to the Isle, stealth around grabbing as many Moss-Covered Chests as you can, equip 496 gear which is T14 Normal raid equivalent), but if you want to do so just for the heck of it/acquire VP and JP, as with leveling, any spec works. However! Weapon damage matters FAR more in this expansion than it has in the past, so the 476s that you can get from the Timeless Isle item vendor (10k coins for 1H and 20k for 2H) are -passable-, but you'll want to get better ones from the ToT raid (which you'll be geared for easily from the Timeless Isle stuff) as soon as you can.

    Raids - Again, play whichever spec you prefer. I've always been an Assassination guy, but others live and die by Combat. Weapon speed isn't anything you need to be concerned with any longer, so if you do go Combat, pretty much any weapon will work fine.
    Enialis wrote: »
    LFR would probably get a lot better if they added any sort of feedback into it as to how well you personally were doing. The questing/leveling game in no way prepares you how to optimally DPS/tank/heal in a raid environment. If anything LFR provides positive reinforcement as you can queue, push your buttons, do 40k DPS (but w/o running your own meter have no idea how much you're doing or even what an appropriate level of damage is), get loot & valor and reasonably assume you helped the team.

    This is an excellent point, and one I really wish someone who was going to Blizzcon would bring up to the devs/blues (*hint hint* anyone here going to Blizzcon). The leveling game does not prepare you at all for the endgame, they may as well be two completely separate games. In fact, leveling gives you a tremendously false sense of security and comprehension because you pretty much steamroll over everything with little to no danger (understandably, because the idea is for you to get to the endgame ASAP so you can step on the gear treadmill). Until this changes, you'll get plenty of people in LFR who simply don't know any better than the two or three buttons they needed to hit to keep the non-elite packs of mobs dying on the way to the level cap.

    Well, the solution is somewhat implemented already - require Proving Grounds. Unfortunately, Blizz's current stance is that they might lower the ilvl requirement for people who do it, they won't raise it for those who don't.

  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    Does proving grounds really tell you how to improve though? It just pass/fails you.

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    For some classes/specs proving grounds is faceroll easy, for others near impossible chore.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Proving grounds was a real missed opportunity in my eyes. It should have been something you could access early that helped you better grasp your role so you didn't end up as a fresh 90 who never bothered grouping trying to do heroics.

    It also could have been useful in helping people who might not otherwise tank or heal get a feel for those roles to help assuage their fears.

    Instead we got epeen stroking.

    PSN/NNID/Steam: Dr_Keenbean
    3DS: 1650-8480-6786
    Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
  • sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    I never understand about this talk about how leveling doesn't prepare you for raiding. No it doesn't, raiding prepares you for raiding. Wanna get good at raiding? Fucking go raid and look at guides online and theory craft to get better. There are a wide variety of guilds in regards to how skilled raiding guilds are. Start from the bottom and work your way up. I also think people under estimate the skill to be in a raiding guild and laugh at 80%+ of raiders who are not as skilled as they would like them to be.

    sumwar on
  • BoogdudBoogdud Registered User regular
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR is even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them.

    I kinda wish there was a heroic version of lfr, with substantial rewards. I can execute pretty well, I just don't have time for a guild and all the baggage that comes along with it.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    One thing I thought they did well was feature a number of raid mechanics as part of the leveling process in the form of the world rates. If you look at the first couple of raids, many of the mechanics of those raids show up elsewhere and players have an opportunity to practice outside of the raid. That was well done.

    Halfmex
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Alrighty y'all, I need some help --

    I've been away from WoW for a while. (About 5 months). I had previously been playing an Alliance Druid, and he's pretty decently geared with LFR gear. There's a long story about why I had been playing him, which isn't really relevant here. Needless to say, my main characters are all Horde, and I've got the most nostalgic connection with my Horde characters.

    I've got an Orc Rogue, who is level 71. He's a Miner/Engineer, and he's currently wearing a healthy mix of T4/T5 gear from Kara/SSC/TK. He was my raid character during the height of Burning Crusade. I retired him when Lich King released in favor of switching to a DK.

    I'm thinking of taking my rogue out of retirement and playing him for a while, getting him up to 90, and perhaps maining him during the unannounced expansion.

    That brings me to why I need your help:

    I don't know how to rogue anymore. I haven't played a rogue since I retired my Orc at the end of BC, and things have changed so dramatically since then that I really don't know anything about the class anymore. I'm looking for some very basic, almost newbie level advice on how to start playing this character again.

    When I retired him, he was Combat spec, because that was the top raid spec in BC. Here's an armory link:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/earthen-ring/Kragos/simple

    Anyway, what is the best leveling spec these days? I'm planning on taking him to 90 and will most likely be doing each dungeon exactly one time, and the rest of my XP will come from questing.

    And after I hit 90, what is the best dungeon spec to begin gearing up in heroics? And finally, after I get into some heroic gear, what is the best spec to begin farming LFR with?

    If there's any other relevant or noteworthy information, please feel free to share. Even though I have a TON of experience on this character, it is all very old experience and the game has changed a lot since then. At this point I feel almost like a new character with my complete lack of knowledge of how to play this guy.

    Re: Roguery -

    Leveling - Any spec is fine, though Combat as always edges ahead just due to the better cleave for packs of mobs and whatnot.

    Dungeoning - Not really necessary anymore thanks to the Timeless Isle (that is, hit 90, go over to the Isle, stealth around grabbing as many Moss-Covered Chests as you can, equip 496 gear which is T14 Normal raid equivalent), but if you want to do so just for the heck of it/acquire VP and JP, as with leveling, any spec works. However! Weapon damage matters FAR more in this expansion than it has in the past, so the 476s that you can get from the Timeless Isle item vendor (10k coins for 1H and 20k for 2H) are -passable-, but you'll want to get better ones from the ToT raid (which you'll be geared for easily from the Timeless Isle stuff) as soon as you can.

    Raids - Again, play whichever spec you prefer. I've always been an Assassination guy, but others live and die by Combat. Weapon speed isn't anything you need to be concerned with any longer, so if you do go Combat, pretty much any weapon will work fine.
    Enialis wrote: »
    LFR would probably get a lot better if they added any sort of feedback into it as to how well you personally were doing. The questing/leveling game in no way prepares you how to optimally DPS/tank/heal in a raid environment. If anything LFR provides positive reinforcement as you can queue, push your buttons, do 40k DPS (but w/o running your own meter have no idea how much you're doing or even what an appropriate level of damage is), get loot & valor and reasonably assume you helped the team.

    This is an excellent point, and one I really wish someone who was going to Blizzcon would bring up to the devs/blues (*hint hint* anyone here going to Blizzcon). The leveling game does not prepare you at all for the endgame, they may as well be two completely separate games. In fact, leveling gives you a tremendously false sense of security and comprehension because you pretty much steamroll over everything with little to no danger (understandably, because the idea is for you to get to the endgame ASAP so you can step on the gear treadmill). Until this changes, you'll get plenty of people in LFR who simply don't know any better than the two or three buttons they needed to hit to keep the non-elite packs of mobs dying on the way to the level cap.
    For assasination you must have two daggers. For combat you should use a slow mh amd oh does not matter (slow is slightly better). For sub, either is fine in mh, fast in oh.
    Best leveling until 60ish is sub since ambush one shots most mobs. After that either combat or assasination is fine. The glyph that refreshes your cp when a mob dies, and the one that lets you redirect cp more often are great.
    Boogdud wrote: »
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR i even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them.


    I kinda wish there was a heroic version of lfr, with substantial rewards. I can execute pretty well, I just don't have time for a guild and all the baggage that comes along with it.

    what would prevent the people that do terrible in current lfr from queuing for that one?

    steam_sig.png
    forty
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Proving grounds was a real missed opportunity in my eyes. It should have been something you could access early that helped you better grasp your role so you didn't end up as a fresh 90 who never bothered grouping trying to do heroics.

    It also could have been useful in helping people who might not otherwise tank or heal get a feel for those roles to help assuage their fears.

    Instead we got epeen stroking.

    I thought the periodic trials you can do while leveling a monk were a good way to work a proving grounds like "learn your class" into the leveling process. They may want to tighten it up and do a bit more to teach how to play the classes, but I think it was a good approach. The other thing they could consider going forward is gating LFR behind a certain rank in proving grounds. (and add different tiers of proving grounds for different ilevel requirement LFR). You can also put a reward in for beating the proving ground, such as a weapon.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Crayon wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    When there's factual data (Blizz knows the average amount of wipes and stacks of determination every boss kill takes and what killed people every time they die as three big data points, and that's just a tiny bit of the data they gather) and tons of anecdotal evidence from not just people in this thread but people across the internet that supports LFR getting nerfed, being surprised/mad at it getting nerfed is being a bit blind to experiences other than yours.

    I believe that's why it's called anecdotal. Dear god, this is kind of circular at this point.

    I was wrong. My personal opinion that it shouldn't have been nerfed further is bad. Super bad and stupid.
    Don't forget about your opinion that others are crazy for having bad experiences in LFR. That's the mega super bad and stupid opinion.
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR is even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them. The nature of the random, functionally anonymous environment means that any level of difficulty winds up being too goddamn much for a lot of groups. Any mechanic that can't be brute forced at a relatively low level (determination) is always going to get removed quickly.
    Exactly. And yet it seems like every tier when the inevitable "oops we expected too much of 20 or so random, terrible players and overtuned things" nerfs hit, somehow official forums style goosery leaks into these threads and a "lol wtf LFR so easy y nerf" post or two works its way in.

    forty on
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  • BoogdudBoogdud Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Smrtnik wrote: »

    what would prevent the people that do terrible in current lfr from queuing for that one?

    Well a good start is tallying how many times you've been kicked (though that is abuse-able). But honestly, there isn't really much you can do. I'd think the people that were serious about doing a 'heroic' lfr would be pretty quick on the kick button for slackers, griefers and afk'ers.


    Boogdud on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Boogdud wrote: »
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR is even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them.

    I kinda wish there was a heroic version of lfr, with substantial rewards. I can execute pretty well, I just don't have time for a guild and all the baggage that comes along with it.
    This is basically what doing Flex raids with oqueue or OpenRaid is.

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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    Boogdud wrote: »
    honestly we're past the point where talking about the difficulty in LFR is even productive; there's some segment of the population that either only wants the most basic 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay or isn't capable of anything more, and LFR is blizzard's alternative for them.

    I kinda wish there was a heroic version of lfr, with substantial rewards. I can execute pretty well, I just don't have time for a guild and all the baggage that comes along with it.
    This is basically what doing Flex raids with oqueue or OpenRaid is.

    On my server I've seen spontaneous flex pugs too

  • tarnoktarnok Registered User regular
    sumwar wrote: »
    I never understand about this talk about how leveling doesn't prepare you for raiding. No it doesn't, raiding prepares you for raiding. Wanna get good at raiding? Fucking go raid and look at guides online and theory craft to get better. There are a wide variety of guilds in regards to how skilled raiding guilds are. Start from the bottom and work your way up. I also think people under estimate the skill to be in a raiding guild and laugh at 80%+ of raiders who are not as skilled as they would like them to be.

    The problem with this view is that one of the strengths of a good video game is that it teaches the player how to play. Not necessarily (or even at all in the best cases) with a tutorial or something like that, but by providing feedback as the player succeeds or makes mistakes. In a game that teaches players well, players do something right and immediately know that it was the right thing to do and want to do it again, while if they do something wrong it is equally obvious that was the wrong thing to do and that they should avoid it in the future. WoW has always been terrible at this aspect of gaming and while it seems to many of us that it would be possible to improve a great deal in this area there has been relatively little visible effort to do so.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    sumwar wrote: »
    I never understand about this talk about how leveling doesn't prepare you for raiding. No it doesn't, raiding prepares you for raiding. Wanna get good at raiding? Fucking go raid and look at guides online and theory craft to get better. There are a wide variety of guilds in regards to how skilled raiding guilds are. Start from the bottom and work your way up. I also think people under estimate the skill to be in a raiding guild and laugh at 80%+ of raiders who are not as skilled as they would like them to be.

    ....Aaaaaaaand that's the problem.

    I mean, look, if the first tons of hours and levels teach you nothing about what you should be doing as your class once you're at the cap and most of the content of the game opens up, then the leveling process is pointless and failed. Entirely.

    And that's one of WoWs core problems right now, and why none of their changes to the talents or skills or glyphs over the years has made any meaningful difference to the number of bads at the level cap. If someone doesn't know how to properly play their class at level 90, it's not because they didn't put the right points in the right talent at the right level, it's because the game never taught them to actually play their class.

    If you're reaching the point in the game where the game never prepared you for the content that you're going to be spending most of your time, where does the problem lay? You can hardly blame a player who never learned how to properly mage when at no point during the process of leveling 1-90 did the game ever give them any direction as to how to mage. New skills every few levels sounds nice on paper to 'keep people invested' but when said skills have zero context and no apparent synergy or rotation, it's not the players fault if they didn't learn something the game wasn't teaching.

    Proving grounds should be a requirement every 5-10 levels, not a pointless level cap activity, they need to cull the amount of abilities most classes have by 1/2 or more, and the game should teach you how to pay attention to mechanics as you are leveling, and gradually add in more and more complex activities on bosses and in dungeons, so that when you hit 90 and hop into LFR the idea of 'don't stand in shit' shouldn't be this novel thing.

    It's interesting to be playing a lot of FFXIV ARR at the same time that I'm still playing WoW; how they handle the leveling process and what you get taught along the way is so night and day it's mindblowing. In XIV you have series of virtually required quests for each class that has duties that focus on recently gained abilities so that as you level you're being taught about the things you're gaining. Also as you level you get traits that tend to make your class abilities interact with each other in such ways that it leads you directly to being able to figure out rotations. "Oh, so now that I have cure 2 I just got an ability that makes cure 2 cost no mana if I get a proc off cure 1; that probably means that cure 1 should be my primary cure and I should use Cure 2 when it is free or when its really an emergency!" and things like that, so by the time you're 50 you don't just have a bar of abilities that you have no idea what to do with, or how they should properly be used. On top of that, it has required dungeons while leveling to follow the story, and the dungeons all build upon each other with mechanics, so that you're learning the games battle system as you're leveling so that once you hit 50 and hop into harder dungeons you're not just suddenly thrown into encounters that you have no basis of knowing mechanics for; you know not to stand in red, not to stand in front of bosses, to kill adds, etc; you've learned all this while leveling.

    It's not like that makes the playerbase magically good; you still run into terrible tanks, dps that can't get out of shit, etc; but you can't blame the game at that point because it did its job teaching you how to play it.

    So yeah, the idea that you should learn how to raid by raiding, when raiding is now the end game content for everyone, is pretty silly. You should know how to 'raid' by the time you reach the level cap, or the leveling process is a complete waste of time.

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  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    I agree that the game itself needs to teach players how to play. It should not fall to player-guides, websites, and online communities. The game needs to instruct it's players on how to be successful.

    However.

    WoW is 9 years old. There is almost no new blood in the game at this point. The people who are playing are people who have been playing for multiple years already.

    And if a person who has been playing the game for 3-4 years or more still doesn't know how to raid, well, that person will probably never know how to raid.

    I have been in good raid guilds, and I have been in poor ones. You know how the good ones become good? Strict recruitment policies. Mandatory DPS numbers. Caring about the game. In the bad raid guilds I have been in, they almost always had an open recruitment policy and let just about anyone in.

    Going to sites, doing research, and weekly participation aren't enough to help some people. Some people are just bad.

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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    I think 'going to sites, doing research' has been one of WoW's biggest failings; because that's virtually always been the answer when people have questions. Even in game if someone asks something, the answer is "google" or "wowhead", the playerbase itself isn't willing to help anyone out, and the game doesn't do its job to teach anything either.

    Yeah, it's 9 years old, and it's perfectly valid that there is little new blood in the game these days; though with the revamp of RAF they're clearly seeking it; but that doesn't mean that it's too late. But some remedial courses for classes couldn't hurt.

    And sure, some people are just bad, but some people just need to be taught; what might be viewed as hand holding to a better player is simply what is best for some. But the state WoW is in, and has been in, is that there isn't even that basic level of teaching; even LFR requires a knowledge of mechanics that the game never teaches prior, and even if you die to something one player would view as obvious, a lesser player, who could still end up being a decent player with the right tools, might not be able to discern what happened, and never learn.

    Some people just get so caught up in the "zomg lfr is faceroll how are these bads failing" when those same people have years of raiding experience, WoW experience, MMO experience and gaming experience to build on; not everyone else has had that, or wants that, and again, the game itself doesn't teach you anything about mechanics prior to getting to content, so for less experienced players, even 'faceroll lfr' is still pretty damn difficult and obtuse.

    Even down to it's 'low' of 7.6 million players, 'going to sites, doing research' is something that shouldn't be put on the players shoulders; not for a modern game, not for a game as mass appeal as WoW. That's fine for people wanting to take their game to the next level, which many of us have been a long time; but for a player who just wants to play; homework isn't very fun.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    I think 'going to sites, doing research' has been one of WoW's biggest failings; because that's virtually always been the answer when people have questions. Even in game if someone asks something, the answer is "google" or "wowhead", the playerbase itself isn't willing to help anyone out, and the game doesn't do its job to teach anything either.

    Yeah, it's 9 years old, and it's perfectly valid that there is little new blood in the game these days; though with the revamp of RAF they're clearly seeking it; but that doesn't mean that it's too late. But some remedial courses for classes couldn't hurt.

    And sure, some people are just bad, but some people just need to be taught; what might be viewed as hand holding to a better player is simply what is best for some. But the state WoW is in, and has been in, is that there isn't even that basic level of teaching; even LFR requires a knowledge of mechanics that the game never teaches prior, and even if you die to something one player would view as obvious, a lesser player, who could still end up being a decent player with the right tools, might not be able to discern what happened, and never learn.

    Some people just get so caught up in the "zomg lfr is faceroll how are these bads failing" when those same people have years of raiding experience, WoW experience, MMO experience and gaming experience to build on; not everyone else has had that, or wants that, and again, the game itself doesn't teach you anything about mechanics prior to getting to content, so for less experienced players, even 'faceroll lfr' is still pretty damn difficult and obtuse.

    Even down to it's 'low' of 7.6 million players, 'going to sites, doing research' is something that shouldn't be put on the players shoulders; not for a modern game, not for a game as mass appeal as WoW. That's fine for people wanting to take their game to the next level, which many of us have been a long time; but for a player who just wants to play; homework isn't very fun.

    Google gives you better answers, though. Alternatively, it gives you the same answers that you get from asking people, if they say "go to X site". I can spend ten minutes telling you how to be a good Shadow Priest, or I can say howtopriest.com and spend the other 9 minutes and change looking at cat pictures.

    I'm not really sure how you make a game where a) skill is a major factor b) homework is not required c) the content doesn't get completely trivialized if you do homework. I guess you have to put more solo content, or something?

    fortySmrtnik
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    It's not like that makes the playerbase magically good; you still run into terrible tanks, dps that can't get out of shit, etc; but you can't blame the game at that point because it did its job teaching you how to play it.
    This is a troubling statement since the takeaway is arguably that it's not worth the effort to develop the building blocks of challenge in forced leveling content because people will still fail at the end game.

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  • StraygatsbyStraygatsby Registered User regular
    Ugh, I have to do all those stupid intro scenarios on thunder island on this new character. Am not loving.

    forty
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