*Mounts dissolved in water, took 3 seconds to cast, and their speed was tied to the specific mount instead of your skill? And non-epic flying mounts flew slower than they could run? Also they took up inventory space.
*Hearthstone cooldown was an hour?
*Warriors had to complete quest chains to learn their stances?
*Rogues had to brew their own poison (including leveling up their own special profession to do it) and it took up inventory space? And learning the skill required completing a quest chain? Also they conflicted with a shaman casting Windfury?
*Rogues had to level up their lockpicking skill and there were areas in the game with a bunch of locked chests scattered about to help them do it?
*Hunters had to worry about how happy their pet was and had to level each pet up individually?
*Death Knights could tank in any spec, auto-res as a Ghoul, and also had talents to share their Presences with the entire party?
*Weapon skill?
*Defense cap?
*Draenei got slightly different racials depending on what class they picked (Inspiring or Heroic Presence, effecting either Spell Hit or regular Hit) and it was an aura that effected their entire party?
*Blood Elves had a Mana Tap racial that removed Mana from their targets and was used to build charges for their Arcane Torrent racial?
*You had to queue for a Battleground at it's specific Battlemaster located in either a capitol city or at the battleground's entrance portal?
*Stormwind didn't have a dock and for Alliance to get to Kalimdor usually involved a trip through the Wetlands?
*Horde didn't have a zeppelin to take them between Orgimmar and Thunder Bluff?
I may be misremembering, but didn't the Warlock mount quest take you thru the Barrens regardless of whether you were Horde or Alliance?
I liked the one Horde warlock quest that had you travel into wetlands, right next to a common road, and kill a pvp flagged Alliance NPC
And who could forget the joy that was the Horde water totem quest?
Don't forget, back then one also had to do damage to a mob before it counted as being tapped. So assholes could steal your mobs if you were using DoTs and they damaged them before the DoT ticked or people could be assholes to anyone that only had mana tap to pull asininely placed mobs.
OTOH, BC heroics sucked at first. 360 degree cleaves = no melee DPS wanted for heroics. No CC? GTFO too.
I did like the heroics being somewhat difficult though, but given the grind for valor and stuff now, I don't want to do hard stuff with PUGs. I want to get it done and move onto guild stuff.
Ass cleaves best cleaves. Nightbane was the worst shit for us until they fixed the asscleaves.
Also no change to wow has been better than the removal of defense and weapon skill. Uuuugh that shit was so dumb.
I did actually like cataclysm heroics. It was punishing if you didn't follow mechanics, but if people actually _talked_ to each other and made an effort they were all doable. Once I learned the fights I was able to talk a group through them fairly consistently, foiled only by people who'd drop after two wipes or the occasional person who just. could. not. execute. the beams on Corla or whatever her name was. Any other boss and it was just a matter of explanation and persistence.
edit: just to clarify, the thing I liked is that you had to pay attention to what was happening and interact with the game, not just tap out your rotation while you watch tv
Yeah. The thing that bothers me most about the heroic/lfr difficulty is that it's so fucking boring when you know what you're doing. The Cata dungeons were fun because as a healer I actually got to play. Also, I'd get recognition for my healing skills when things went to shit and I legit saved everyone's asses. That never happens now because everyone could stand in everything and I could afk and go make a pot of tea and nobody would die. I actually "heal" dungeons in elemental spec right now, because the passive heals from ancestral guidance are enough to keep everyone up and dpsing gives me something to do.
The part about healers is so true. I healed in Cata and loved it. I stopped partly because my guild had way too many healers at the end of Cata and I started playing around with shadow just so we could fill up raids, but mostly because there just wasn't any point to healing in MoP. I cast PW: Shield, I cast pennance, I cast smite a thousand times, the instance is over.
Recently my guild needed a switch healer and I wanted to get some practice in, but there just wasn't anywhere to do it. Nothing short of actual raiding is at all challenging to heal so the only option for real practice was to learn during raids and waste nine other people's time while I got my ass back in gear.
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
One of the "great" things about weapon skill was that the rate at which you got skillups was tied to how much intellect you had. Not only did this screw melee classes unless you built a special intellect set from AH greens, but there was absolutely no indication in the game that intellect had that effect.
One of the "great" things about weapon skill was that the rate at which you got skillups was tied to how much intellect you had. Not only did this screw melee classes unless you built a special intellect set from AH greens, but there was absolutely no indication in the game that intellect had that effect.
I think it actually said that in the vanilla manual, but no where in game. The manual also talked about plains running for Tauren.
Just thinking back to how things were in BC and then reading up on things were at the start of the game. It just makes me want to smack people that claim Vanilla WoW was superior and that they've dumb the game down because most of that shit was pretty fucking awful. I don't know how much of it was people conveniently forgetting how awful some things were back then. How much of that is people that got into the top guilds fairly early, thus mitigating some of the bullshit and pining for the days they can shit on people still dealing with the BS that they don't have to contend with. Or how much of that is from that awful demographic of people that intentionally push for shitty setups, so that they can be special snowflakes.
While you will not find me to be one of the people that pines for the "old days", I don't think those people want the Org-TB zep gone, or the Stormwind harbor gone. I think it's mostly things like, requiring raid attunements and having fights that are literally impossible to just zerg down. Like, Vashj is impossible to do if you're not coordinated. Take that and compare it to SoO LFR.
The point they're missing is that hard raid fights are still available in 10 and 25 man heroic raids, but I think they've become so abrasive that no one wants to raid with them, so they only have LFR to go off of.
One of the "great" things about weapon skill was that the rate at which you got skillups was tied to how much intellect you had. Not only did this screw melee classes unless you built a special intellect set from AH greens, but there was absolutely no indication in the game that intellect had that effect.
I think this was only true for bits of Vanilla, but in vanilla you could just go to blasted lands and punch those undying quest mobs forever. Still sucked though.
they've become so abrasive that no one wants to raid with them, so they only have LFR to go off of.
Since I've started playing again recently, this has been my opinion on the people that constantly go on about wanting the game back to the way it was back in (expac). Nowadays, it's more your personality that will determine if you get into a good guild or not, and not your ability to stfu for a boss fight and stand in spot A until told to move to spot B. Also the fact that raid leaders aren't fighting to fill up 40 spots every time they try to raid means that this is even more apparent.
If you have a shit personality, but are god at your class, you've got like no options for guilds. But if you've got a good personality and are mediocre at your class, you're pretty much able to join whatever guild you want. Hell, even the hardcore "world first" guilds are able to cut the shit talkers and toxic people in favor of those that aren't assholes any time they aren't being told to shut up.
As someone that did the hardcore stuff back in Vanilla and TBC, I'm glad that I don't have to deal with those mouth breathers any more. Give me my terrible mage friend over the godlike warrior who feels the need to spam dickpics every time he logs on.
One of the "great" things about weapon skill was that the rate at which you got skillups was tied to how much intellect you had. Not only did this screw melee classes unless you built a special intellect set from AH greens, but there was absolutely no indication in the game that intellect had that effect.
I still remember back in TBC hitting elemental plateau on my mage, and having a warrior who was working on his weapon skills up there keep asking me for new AIs.
One of the "great" things about weapon skill was that the rate at which you got skillups was tied to how much intellect you had. Not only did this screw melee classes unless you built a special intellect set from AH greens, but there was absolutely no indication in the game that intellect had that effect.
I think it actually said that in the vanilla manual, but no where in game. The manual also talked about plains running for Tauren.
It also talked about how your specs also had a skill meter. I remember that really confusing me at first.
While you will not find me to be one of the people that pines for the "old days", I don't think those people want the Org-TB zep gone, or the Stormwind harbor gone. I think it's mostly things like, requiring raid attunements and having fights that are literally impossible to just zerg down. Like, Vashj is impossible to do if you're not coordinated. Take that and compare it to SoO LFR.
The point they're missing is that hard raid fights are still available in 10 and 25 man heroic raids, but I think they've become so abrasive that no one wants to raid with them, so they only have LFR to go off of.
I'm not sure if this is the silliest comparison or the silliest comparison.
If someone was so 'leet' in BC that they were doing real raiding and now can only do LFR and don't have the minimial amount of self awareness to realize that they're not even remotely comparable acts, nor are they intended to be, then there's not a lot of reason to even listen to the 'argument'
'Abrasive' doesn't even begin to describe a lot of the people who scream for the 'good old days', and is why Blizzard rarely, if ever, gives them any creedence. I can feel the force of the sheer amount of eyes rolling when someone posts a thread on the official forums asking for vanilla servers.
Regarding attunements, they're a blessing and a curse, and bliz is on record stating this too. They like the idea of having something leading up to raids, so they can introduce them better and things like that; however attunements of old were circuses of time and effort that often had to be put in by an entire guild to sometimes attune a single person, and more often than should be acceptable, those people would often guild hop after getting some gear to the 'better' raid guilds, and that was a lot of time and energy wasted by a lot of people. Plus it often means that you can't step into the new content unless you jump through the hurdles of the old content; which was pressure on the guild and players who were new or returning which is bad for subs. This logic also makes how against catch-up dungeons in MoP blizz was very contradictary but hey...so was most of MoP :rotate:
While you will not find me to be one of the people that pines for the "old days", I don't think those people want the Org-TB zep gone, or the Stormwind harbor gone. I think it's mostly things like, requiring raid attunements and having fights that are literally impossible to just zerg down. Like, Vashj is impossible to do if you're not coordinated. Take that and compare it to SoO LFR.
The point they're missing is that hard raid fights are still available in 10 and 25 man heroic raids, but I think they've become so abrasive that no one wants to raid with them, so they only have LFR to go off of.
The heroic mode fights these days are as hard as ever and definitely harder than anything in vanilla. We had server first C'thun and I love that fight for the coordination it took. And it is still simpler than several heroic in every tier in mop.
Lfr is easier than any raid ever. Easier by far than 10 or 15 man zergs of vanilla 5 mans (remember those?)
LFR is dumb, and the difficulty progression of LFR is dumb. They've managed to make it both too easy and too hard, which is an amazing accomplishment.
If heroics were harder, then the people going into LFR would be more used to the difficulty, resulting in groups that weren't as lazy/bad/inexperienced. They could then make more of the LFR mechanics actually matter. That would make it less of a surprise when a mechanic kills someone or wipes the raid like some of the mechanics in siege that makes the LFR siege runs so bad.
LFR is dumb, and the difficulty progression of LFR is dumb. They've managed to make it both too easy and too hard, which is an amazing accomplishment.
If heroics were harder, then the people going into LFR would be more used to the difficulty, resulting in groups that weren't as lazy/bad/inexperienced. They could then make more of the LFR mechanics actually matter. That would make it less of a surprise when a mechanic kills someone or wipes the raid like some of the mechanics in siege that makes the LFR siege runs so bad.
That's funny. I'm guessing you didn't play during cata?
LFR is dumb, and the difficulty progression of LFR is dumb. They've managed to make it both too easy and too hard, which is an amazing accomplishment.
If heroics were harder, then the people going into LFR would be more used to the difficulty, resulting in groups that weren't as lazy/bad/inexperienced. They could then make more of the LFR mechanics actually matter. That would make it less of a surprise when a mechanic kills someone or wipes the raid like some of the mechanics in siege that makes the LFR siege runs so bad.
That's funny. I'm guessing you didn't play during cata?
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase. In fact it did the opposite and they lost massive amounts of players. Things didn't turn around, to any degree, until they introduced the catchup 378 dungeons and LFR, both of which were faceroll easy.
Some people just want that. The assumption that making harder starter content resulting in better players has shown to never play out in WoW. In fact any time someone went after GC on twitter or whatever stating the same thing you are, he always pointed out that nope, it simply doesn't work that way. Thus the return to faceroll heroics and LFR in MoP, with the addition of challenge modes and multiple tiers of non-LFR raiding for the people who want to avoid the 'bads'. Something for everyone instead of trying to engineer the playerbase to play in ways they don't want, or care, to.
Is your average LFR player bad? Generally, that's probably true; but it's also just the name of the game. It's like going to the superbowl and complaining about people cheering because you like watching games in the quiet of your house. For the same reason that hard mode raids aren't for your average LFR'er, LFR isn't for hard mode raiders; this is something that despite my frequent disagreements with GC, I fully agreed with him on. They've made the various tiers for a reason, and even by their own admission, their attempts to increase the difficulty of starter content to produce more raiders has never ever panned out.
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase. In fact it did the opposite and they lost massive amounts of players.
In fairness, this does improve the quality of active players on average if people who can't handle it quit.
I was able to do LFD fairly reliably even early on in Cataclysm! Was it easy? No! I had to leverage my class fully to make up for faults in the party. Granted, I was playing a pretty OP class for heroics: a restoration shaman. Hex, Interrupts, Totems... that class was able to put forward a bunch of utility that was supreme in heroics.
I miss those Cataclysm heroics because they had that challenge with no overhead. Challenge dungeons don't scratch that itch for me. The difficulty is there (although I'm not a huge fan of time attack). I don't have reliable guild-mates or friends who want to do something that isn't tied to progression at all. I don't have the interest to manage random people and groups over oQueue either. Heroics are too easy and Challenge dungeons are too troublesome. I suppose I just fell in between the audiences that were aimed for.
I think it's a false conclusion that the people who quit were the people who couldn't hack it. I'm sure equal numbers of players who were quite good and capable who were fed up with hour+ LFG's that were failures because of legitimately bad players, were among those quitting too.
And I think blizz has been pretty open about their inability to really find a good solution for the sort of player like you (or me) who is a very good player, able to adjust and learn fights quickly and easily, but doesn't have the time and/or energy to get on board with an active guild or raid group; but at the same time doesn't have endless patience for carrying half of a LFR group time and time again. I think Flex is aimed there, and maybe in WoD I'll give it a go, I just have been out of WoW for a few months and at this point I don't imagine I'm going to put any serious time into it before WoD except to do a few final 'cleanup' things like finishing my legendary cloak.
It's just a tough as hell problem to solve. You can't force bad players to be good and you can't force good players to carry bads forever, and their struggle with balancing that often puts out the middle ground player who keeps getting jerked back and forth between content that is too easy or too hard.
Would love to see them do mythic 5 mans. Only problem is that would probably only scratch the itch for a limited number of players, that they might deem it not worth the effort. Sure they would have all the art assets, but still have to tune it.
Plus, the rewards might be an issue. People might not be willing to give it a shot if it's only cosmetic rewards. Chances are such dungeons would probably be more difficult than LFR, so you can't really give it stat gear that is weaker without complaints. On the other hand, give it gear equal to LFR or slightly better and people would bitch about it being too hard and not fair that a 5 man gives loot equal to or slightly better than the LFR tier.
Still it would be pretty cool if they went that route with WoD. On the other hand, I don't want them ending up designing more 5 mans that take the time comment that a raid requires. I like hard content, but I expect my 5 mans to cater more towards a philosophy of "if you had lots of time to burn right now, you'd be in a raid. So let's keep this short."
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase. In fact it did the opposite and they lost massive amounts of players.
In fairness, this does improve the quality of active players on average if people who can't handle it quit.
I was able to do LFD fairly reliably even early on in Cataclysm! Was it easy? No! I had to leverage my class fully to make up for faults in the party. Granted, I was playing a pretty OP class for heroics: a restoration shaman. Hex, Interrupts, Totems... that class was able to put forward a bunch of utility that was supreme in heroics.
I miss those Cataclysm heroics because they had that challenge with no overhead. Challenge dungeons don't scratch that itch for me. The difficulty is there (although I'm not a huge fan of time attack). I don't have reliable guild-mates or friends who want to do something that isn't tied to progression at all. I don't have the interest to manage random people and groups over oQueue either. Heroics are too easy and Challenge dungeons are too troublesome. I suppose I just fell in between the audiences that were aimed for.
I'm pretty curious as to when in Cata. you did heroics as a restoration shaman. At launch, heals were relatively weaker and much less efficient than the other healers, while things like Hex / Bind Elemental / Wind shear were a complete liability because you lacked the hit to make sure those spells landed in the first place, in addition to the little pulse CC did every few seconds to make sure it remained (i.e. it was not unusual to see a Hex or Bind Elemental finish early, then the mob would run to you, because you had agro from healing).
Things did get better, but from my own experience, healing heroics at the start of Cata. was an exercise in frustration. The "triage" idea just simply didn't seem to exist, because Healing Wave initially healed for so little.
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase.
It emphatically did _not_ make them impossible to complete in lfg. As I said earlier, the only times I couldn't complete an instance with the group I went in with was when people gave up or we couldn't find three people to pull their heads out of their asses for the beams on Corla. And when people gave up I'd just wait for more, explain the fight to them and go on with the instance. Having to talk to the people in the group or wiping does not mean you can't finish the instance.
And I really do think cata heroics would have produced better players if they'd stuck with it. Not because they were forced to deal with harder dungeons, but because harder dungeons would force people to talk to each other. I was pretty hopeless through vanilla and BC because I had no information outside what the game presented to me. I eventually discovered websites outside the game and realized it was all but impossible to play "properly" without reading these websites, but it took me four fucking years. I was way out of the loop. I was not even aware that there was supposed to be a tank/healer/dps division of labor for years.
Talking to people in dungeons about what's going wrong and why is 1) only possible if something actually goes wrong so that they will stop and listen and 2) a huge opportunity to help another player improve.
I think you've got to look at what happened to the queue times in LFG; in WotLK, I don't recall queueing any long that 10-12 mins as DPS, but Cata. it reached 45 mins plus, which is probably partly down to Tanks and to a lesser extent Healers queuing up with dps chums to lessen their queues, which would then have a knock on effect on there being less solo dps slots.
There are reasons why bags had to be added in order to encourage people playing the Tank or Healer role, and it was not unusual to zone into an instance as dps and find that the tank spot would simply not be filled, especially if whatever loot the tank wanted, was at the start of the instance. I remember ZA in particular; the tank would stick around for the first boss, then drop, next tank would appear, ask if the first boss had been killed, and he'd drop as well. Taking the deserter buff and re-queueing was quicker than sticking it out for the rest of the instance.
I suppose in the end it depends on what LFD's aim was; in WotLK, you'd log on, sign up, and probably have a dungeon done within 30-40 mins. In Cata. heroics, you'd be lucky to get into a dungeon in that time, and even then, it was rather iffy if the run actually happened.
It was almost as if the game had "regressed" back to TBC where you sat in a city for 30 mins trying to form a group in city chat.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
Cata heroics were too difficult for the average WoW player, but there's a much more important reason why they were a failure of design: effort:reward ratio.
When heroics were first implemented, they were done specfically to give smaller guilds something to do at endgame. They offered solid blue-quality progression items in addition to a chance at an epic which was on-par with what you'd get out of Karazhan. Additionally, the badge system that was debuted also helped to offset the bad luck you may have had with the heroics. As time went on though, heroics stopped being about "what drops am I looking for" and became "how quickly can we farm these heroics to load up on badges". Heroics became as they are now - a currency generator. That is the biggest failing of heroics today, but at least now (and mostly in Wrath) they were easy enough to burn through. In Cataclysm, the prospect of spending upwards of an hour or more in a heroic dungeon to come out with a handful of VP and JP was ridiculous, and GC's blog "Wow, heroics are hard!" was straight-up insulting by telling players to just run the normals for enchanting mats/cloth and as for heroics, hey, git gud.
Heroics will not be going back to that difficulty ever again. What you'll see instead are Challenge modes that focus less on speed and more on the TBC or Cata era coordination/class stacking (according to the devs anyway), and potentially a Mythic difficulty for dungeons later on if there's a call for it. But heroics will continue to be the currency generators they are today.
I liked the one Horde warlock quest that had you travel into wetlands, right next to a common road, and kill a pvp flagged Alliance NPC
And who could forget the joy that was the Horde water totem quest?
Was that the quest that took you to the shore of Sliverpine forest and had the yellow voidwalkers that phased in and out
I did not have a horde shaman until cata nor did I really play my draenei one until cata
Solotanking Paragons in LFR because your OT doesn't have any idea what's going on is the best. Being a 571 BrM is sneaky because nobody expects the monk with barely 800k unbuffed hp to take no damage at all and be 2nd on DPS (only behind a warlock who I went with. And ahead of a healer I also went with in 3rd) :P
I got a Blackfuse Bombling though! The game finally rewarded me for carrying terrible LFRs through ToT (Solotanking Lei Shen is best) and SoO.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
So in anticipation of our second week of heroics and killing Immerseus again, I thought I'd refresh my memory of what I can coin off him. "Okay so there's the trinket and bracers for sure; ooh there's a pair of boots too (and a really bad ring for me)...
I liked the one Horde warlock quest that had you travel into wetlands, right next to a common road, and kill a pvp flagged Alliance NPC
And who could forget the joy that was the Horde water totem quest?
Was that the quest that took you to the shore of Sliverpine forest and had the yellow voidwalkers that phased in and out
I did not have a horde shaman until cata nor did I really play my draenei one until cata
The Horde water totem quest took you to deep south Barrens, then far SW Ashenvale, then Tarren Mills, then the coastline of Silverpine, then back to Ratchet.
Back then you didn't have a mount, and several of the mobs were level 24 or higher...when you got the quest at level 20.
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase. In fact it did the opposite and they lost massive amounts of players.
In fairness, this does improve the quality of active players on average if people who can't handle it quit.
I was able to do LFD fairly reliably even early on in Cataclysm! Was it easy? No! I had to leverage my class fully to make up for faults in the party. Granted, I was playing a pretty OP class for heroics: a restoration shaman. Hex, Interrupts, Totems... that class was able to put forward a bunch of utility that was supreme in heroics.
I miss those Cataclysm heroics because they had that challenge with no overhead. Challenge dungeons don't scratch that itch for me. The difficulty is there (although I'm not a huge fan of time attack). I don't have reliable guild-mates or friends who want to do something that isn't tied to progression at all. I don't have the interest to manage random people and groups over oQueue either. Heroics are too easy and Challenge dungeons are too troublesome. I suppose I just fell in between the audiences that were aimed for.
I'm pretty curious as to when in Cata. you did heroics as a restoration shaman. At launch, heals were relatively weaker and much less efficient than the other healers, while things like Hex / Bind Elemental / Wind shear were a complete liability because you lacked the hit to make sure those spells landed in the first place, in addition to the little pulse CC did every few seconds to make sure it remained (i.e. it was not unusual to see a Hex or Bind Elemental finish early, then the mob would run to you, because you had agro from healing).
Things did get better, but from my own experience, healing heroics at the start of Cata. was an exercise in frustration. The "triage" idea just simply didn't seem to exist, because Healing Wave initially healed for so little.
Hmm. I had to do some digging to figure out my start time! Cataclysm was released on December 7th, I hit level 85 on January 7th. I knew I hadn't started the game at launch. If there was a fix or a patch that happened in the first month to improve Shaman accuracy or whatnot then I would not have noticed it. I think I distinctly remember accuracy changes for restoration as part of my journey through that game. That shaman was my first horde character to max level as I aimed to quest with The Beasts. Alas that journey was short lived.
I remember the struggles with the new mana and healing system as well. We had some pretty wonky healing and absolutely no healing cooldowns at the start of that expansion. It was rough! I felt like there was enough control and utility to balance out though. In a priest's cloth shoe's I'd have had no control, no interrupt, no nuthin but my heals! That had to be rougher at the start?
I saw the accuracy thing as an inconvenience but not a deal breaker. The chance of failure was low: 3-5%. I always looked a my control as additive to what the party was supposed to have already. Not necessarily essential (until you had your DPS as a Warrior, Death Knightx2 Combo I suppose).
Cataclysm was when Glyphs really came of their own as somewhat interesting. I remember picking out like Grounding Totem reflects spells and other very niche glyphs just to exploit their potency in heroics. It was fun.
Most of the hardest fights from the BC era pale in comparison to what they're doing now; if you tried to explain to people who killed illidan (simple add control and spread/stack stuff, with a side of touchy tank positioning) the H lei shen mechanics you'd have blown their goddamn mind. Most of the difficulty in BC came from overtuning stuff such that relatively simple mechanics had to be executed perfectly, not from anything fundamentally complicated or interesting.
also resto shaman wasn't so bad in cata LFD? You had CC for most situations and the same low-mana kind of heals that everybody else had (i.e. riptide and HW everything.)
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Desperately trying to get back to our pre-Christmas state (and missing our MT who quit until WoD, and our replacement whose computer blew up last week) we pull together a half-decent group and go to Thok, who stomps us all into the ground because we screwed up the stacking in the fire phase and couldn't start the kite. So after everyone else is dead, our bear tank finishes the last 5% by herself and gets to 39 stacks. WTF.
All making heroics harder in cata did was make it so you pretty much couldn't complete them in lfg, and didn't produce any improved playerbase. In fact it did the opposite and they lost massive amounts of players.
In fairness, this does improve the quality of active players on average if people who can't handle it quit.
I was able to do LFD fairly reliably even early on in Cataclysm! Was it easy? No! I had to leverage my class fully to make up for faults in the party. Granted, I was playing a pretty OP class for heroics: a restoration shaman. Hex, Interrupts, Totems... that class was able to put forward a bunch of utility that was supreme in heroics.
I miss those Cataclysm heroics because they had that challenge with no overhead. Challenge dungeons don't scratch that itch for me. The difficulty is there (although I'm not a huge fan of time attack). I don't have reliable guild-mates or friends who want to do something that isn't tied to progression at all. I don't have the interest to manage random people and groups over oQueue either. Heroics are too easy and Challenge dungeons are too troublesome. I suppose I just fell in between the audiences that were aimed for.
I'm pretty curious as to when in Cata. you did heroics as a restoration shaman. At launch, heals were relatively weaker and much less efficient than the other healers, while things like Hex / Bind Elemental / Wind shear were a complete liability because you lacked the hit to make sure those spells landed in the first place, in addition to the little pulse CC did every few seconds to make sure it remained (i.e. it was not unusual to see a Hex or Bind Elemental finish early, then the mob would run to you, because you had agro from healing).
Things did get better, but from my own experience, healing heroics at the start of Cata. was an exercise in frustration. The "triage" idea just simply didn't seem to exist, because Healing Wave initially healed for so little.
Hmm. I had to do some digging to figure out my start time! Cataclysm was released on December 7th, I hit level 85 on January 7th. I knew I hadn't started the game at launch. If there was a fix or a patch that happened in the first month to improve Shaman accuracy or whatnot then I would not have noticed it. I think I distinctly remember accuracy changes for restoration as part of my journey through that game. That shaman was my first horde character to max level as I aimed to quest with The Beasts. Alas that journey was short lived.
I remember the struggles with the new mana and healing system as well. We had some pretty wonky healing and absolutely no healing cooldowns at the start of that expansion. It was rough! I felt like there was enough control and utility to balance out though. In a priest's cloth shoe's I'd have had no control, no interrupt, no nuthin but my heals! That had to be rougher at the start?
I saw the accuracy thing as an inconvenience but not a deal breaker. The chance of failure was low: 3-5%. I always looked a my control as additive to what the party was supposed to have already. Not necessarily essential (until you had your DPS as a Warrior, Death Knightx2 Combo I suppose).
Cataclysm was when Glyphs really came of their own as somewhat interesting. I remember picking out like Grounding Totem reflects spells and other very niche glyphs just to exploit their potency in heroics. It was fun.
Pretty sure in that month if not long after, we saw a fair few changes; certainly with regards to healing wave and how much it healed for, the mana efficiency of some spells, and also some overall things like CC not agro'ing packs on pulls, interrupts always working, that kind of thing.
I found Windshear a complete pain when it missed. It was part of healing as a Shaman in that you prevented damage being done, and there was a significant amount of stuff that needed to be stopped. I'm pretty sure the failure rate was greater than 5% as well, considering you had mobs above 90.
CC breaking early was not uncommon, and tbh, it got to a point where it became safer not to CC mobs, because then you at least knew what was going on as opposed to a mob just randomly coming along and causing people to panic.
Things obviously got better, but at the start, I personally found the whole experience pretty dreadful, especially when I switched to dps and saw the amount of stuff a holy paladin could do and cover for.
My biggest complaint about heroic raiding since TBC isn't the difficulty itself but how 10v25 have fractured the raiding community. In TBC everyone who raided were on equal footing and progress was easily compared with guilds being spread across all 3 tiers of the expansion.
I raid heroic 25m and I simply can't relate to people in 10h guilds. Not because of the silly arguments about which is harder but because the fights are fundamentally different. Also the fights themselves sometimes feel a bit watered down because they have to be scalable to 6 widely different raid modes. They often miss the mark on tuning by alot in one mode or the other.
Needless to say that the news about mythic raids in WoD make me very happy. I also hope my realm gets connected to another one soon since the more 25m guilds (soon to be 20) we share our space with the merrier.
When I say that I would love to replay TBC I dont mean going back to stuff like shadow only being a mana battery, the old talent system or no transmogs. I just mean that I would love to replay those raids in their intended difficulty but today everything that isn't the latest expansion or even the latest tier is simply outdated content. I never raided in vanilla so I don't see much appeal in going back to that but I can imagine why some people would.
The way the old attunements worked simply had to go but I don't see why they couldn't do something like it again and this time tie it to guilds instead of individual players.
Attunements wouldn't work even if they were tied to guilds. Sure it would no longer keep fucking over guilds that had completed it, but it would still be fucking over new guilds. "Grats you just made a guild, now enjoy having players guild hop or get poached, as you try to catch up to every other fucking guild with your guild's backlog of mandatory shitty attunements."
There is why I specifically called out "people that were in top end guilds, where some of the BS was mitigated," because these are the very people that don't seem to get why attunements were bullshit. If you were at the top of the raiding hierarchy on your server, you didn't have to worry about people leaving your guild once they got attuned because there wasn't a guild further ahead on the next tier of raiding and being doomed to likely be the Tier X guild forever stuck working on raid Y.
I know the excuse is going to be "but Mill, the scrubs must be forced to L2Play and learn the lore."
1. Attunements didn't teach anyone to be a better player. If a player wasn't naturally good at the game and/or their spec/class. Then the issues comes down to either needing more practice or just not giving a fuck. Attunements IMO are counter productive to the former, since they restrict the pool of players and content for the person to practice on. Yeah, wiping sucks on farm content, but they are only ass if you get stuck with people that seem incapable of learning. As for the latter, well attunements did fuck all to address that, if those guys really wanted to raid, they would eventually find a way to get carried through the bullshit.
2. As for lore, can always just have optional quest chains outside of raiding for that. I guess you could also have optional quests that go through the raid, but in a way that isn't obnoxious to everyone else that you happen to raid with. "But Mill, that just makes it optional and people that don't care about lore, will skp it," so who gives a fuck! No, seriously, who gives a flying fuck because you shouldn't give a fuck how people play the game, when the manner has no fucking bearing on raid performance. Sure you might want to know why 'Lord Buttface, King of Bear Asses' is in raid X and why that crazy dwarf wants to make a hat out of his ass, but plenty of players don't really care and them remaining ignorant isn't going affect whether the raid successfully downs 'Lord Buttface' or not. Also attunements can be real fucking annoying for people that like leveling alts to raid on.
3. Attenements are ass because they are a means to gate content, which limits who players can raid with in a more odious manner than player factions and PvP/PvE server setups.
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Does anyone know for sure what happens if you try to craft a unique item when you already have one? I'm guessing nothing gets made and you don't lose the mats, but i'm curious and don't have anything readily available with which to test it.
You know what was bs in vanilla/TBC? Sap having 90% chance to actually sap a mob, and 10% chance to destealth you right next to the mob pack with no sap effect on your target. Omg vanish!
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I liked the one Horde warlock quest that had you travel into wetlands, right next to a common road, and kill a pvp flagged Alliance NPC
And who could forget the joy that was the Horde water totem quest?
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Ass cleaves best cleaves. Nightbane was the worst shit for us until they fixed the asscleaves.
Also no change to wow has been better than the removal of defense and weapon skill. Uuuugh that shit was so dumb.
The part about healers is so true. I healed in Cata and loved it. I stopped partly because my guild had way too many healers at the end of Cata and I started playing around with shadow just so we could fill up raids, but mostly because there just wasn't any point to healing in MoP. I cast PW: Shield, I cast pennance, I cast smite a thousand times, the instance is over.
Recently my guild needed a switch healer and I wanted to get some practice in, but there just wasn't anywhere to do it. Nothing short of actual raiding is at all challenging to heal so the only option for real practice was to learn during raids and waste nine other people's time while I got my ass back in gear.
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I think it actually said that in the vanilla manual, but no where in game. The manual also talked about plains running for Tauren.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
The point they're missing is that hard raid fights are still available in 10 and 25 man heroic raids, but I think they've become so abrasive that no one wants to raid with them, so they only have LFR to go off of.
I think this was only true for bits of Vanilla, but in vanilla you could just go to blasted lands and punch those undying quest mobs forever. Still sucked though.
Since I've started playing again recently, this has been my opinion on the people that constantly go on about wanting the game back to the way it was back in (expac). Nowadays, it's more your personality that will determine if you get into a good guild or not, and not your ability to stfu for a boss fight and stand in spot A until told to move to spot B. Also the fact that raid leaders aren't fighting to fill up 40 spots every time they try to raid means that this is even more apparent.
If you have a shit personality, but are god at your class, you've got like no options for guilds. But if you've got a good personality and are mediocre at your class, you're pretty much able to join whatever guild you want. Hell, even the hardcore "world first" guilds are able to cut the shit talkers and toxic people in favor of those that aren't assholes any time they aren't being told to shut up.
As someone that did the hardcore stuff back in Vanilla and TBC, I'm glad that I don't have to deal with those mouth breathers any more. Give me my terrible mage friend over the godlike warrior who feels the need to spam dickpics every time he logs on.
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I still remember back in TBC hitting elemental plateau on my mage, and having a warrior who was working on his weapon skills up there keep asking me for new AIs.
It also talked about how your specs also had a skill meter. I remember that really confusing me at first.
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I'm not sure if this is the silliest comparison or the silliest comparison.
If someone was so 'leet' in BC that they were doing real raiding and now can only do LFR and don't have the minimial amount of self awareness to realize that they're not even remotely comparable acts, nor are they intended to be, then there's not a lot of reason to even listen to the 'argument'
'Abrasive' doesn't even begin to describe a lot of the people who scream for the 'good old days', and is why Blizzard rarely, if ever, gives them any creedence. I can feel the force of the sheer amount of eyes rolling when someone posts a thread on the official forums asking for vanilla servers.
Regarding attunements, they're a blessing and a curse, and bliz is on record stating this too. They like the idea of having something leading up to raids, so they can introduce them better and things like that; however attunements of old were circuses of time and effort that often had to be put in by an entire guild to sometimes attune a single person, and more often than should be acceptable, those people would often guild hop after getting some gear to the 'better' raid guilds, and that was a lot of time and energy wasted by a lot of people. Plus it often means that you can't step into the new content unless you jump through the hurdles of the old content; which was pressure on the guild and players who were new or returning which is bad for subs. This logic also makes how against catch-up dungeons in MoP blizz was very contradictary but hey...so was most of MoP :rotate:
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The heroic mode fights these days are as hard as ever and definitely harder than anything in vanilla. We had server first C'thun and I love that fight for the coordination it took. And it is still simpler than several heroic in every tier in mop.
Lfr is easier than any raid ever. Easier by far than 10 or 15 man zergs of vanilla 5 mans (remember those?)
If heroics were harder, then the people going into LFR would be more used to the difficulty, resulting in groups that weren't as lazy/bad/inexperienced. They could then make more of the LFR mechanics actually matter. That would make it less of a surprise when a mechanic kills someone or wipes the raid like some of the mechanics in siege that makes the LFR siege runs so bad.
That's funny. I'm guessing you didn't play during cata?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I did and I enjoyed it.
Some people just want that. The assumption that making harder starter content resulting in better players has shown to never play out in WoW. In fact any time someone went after GC on twitter or whatever stating the same thing you are, he always pointed out that nope, it simply doesn't work that way. Thus the return to faceroll heroics and LFR in MoP, with the addition of challenge modes and multiple tiers of non-LFR raiding for the people who want to avoid the 'bads'. Something for everyone instead of trying to engineer the playerbase to play in ways they don't want, or care, to.
Is your average LFR player bad? Generally, that's probably true; but it's also just the name of the game. It's like going to the superbowl and complaining about people cheering because you like watching games in the quiet of your house. For the same reason that hard mode raids aren't for your average LFR'er, LFR isn't for hard mode raiders; this is something that despite my frequent disagreements with GC, I fully agreed with him on. They've made the various tiers for a reason, and even by their own admission, their attempts to increase the difficulty of starter content to produce more raiders has never ever panned out.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
In fairness, this does improve the quality of active players on average if people who can't handle it quit.
I was able to do LFD fairly reliably even early on in Cataclysm! Was it easy? No! I had to leverage my class fully to make up for faults in the party. Granted, I was playing a pretty OP class for heroics: a restoration shaman. Hex, Interrupts, Totems... that class was able to put forward a bunch of utility that was supreme in heroics.
I miss those Cataclysm heroics because they had that challenge with no overhead. Challenge dungeons don't scratch that itch for me. The difficulty is there (although I'm not a huge fan of time attack). I don't have reliable guild-mates or friends who want to do something that isn't tied to progression at all. I don't have the interest to manage random people and groups over oQueue either. Heroics are too easy and Challenge dungeons are too troublesome. I suppose I just fell in between the audiences that were aimed for.
And I think blizz has been pretty open about their inability to really find a good solution for the sort of player like you (or me) who is a very good player, able to adjust and learn fights quickly and easily, but doesn't have the time and/or energy to get on board with an active guild or raid group; but at the same time doesn't have endless patience for carrying half of a LFR group time and time again. I think Flex is aimed there, and maybe in WoD I'll give it a go, I just have been out of WoW for a few months and at this point I don't imagine I'm going to put any serious time into it before WoD except to do a few final 'cleanup' things like finishing my legendary cloak.
It's just a tough as hell problem to solve. You can't force bad players to be good and you can't force good players to carry bads forever, and their struggle with balancing that often puts out the middle ground player who keeps getting jerked back and forth between content that is too easy or too hard.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Plus, the rewards might be an issue. People might not be willing to give it a shot if it's only cosmetic rewards. Chances are such dungeons would probably be more difficult than LFR, so you can't really give it stat gear that is weaker without complaints. On the other hand, give it gear equal to LFR or slightly better and people would bitch about it being too hard and not fair that a 5 man gives loot equal to or slightly better than the LFR tier.
Still it would be pretty cool if they went that route with WoD. On the other hand, I don't want them ending up designing more 5 mans that take the time comment that a raid requires. I like hard content, but I expect my 5 mans to cater more towards a philosophy of "if you had lots of time to burn right now, you'd be in a raid. So let's keep this short."
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
I'm pretty curious as to when in Cata. you did heroics as a restoration shaman. At launch, heals were relatively weaker and much less efficient than the other healers, while things like Hex / Bind Elemental / Wind shear were a complete liability because you lacked the hit to make sure those spells landed in the first place, in addition to the little pulse CC did every few seconds to make sure it remained (i.e. it was not unusual to see a Hex or Bind Elemental finish early, then the mob would run to you, because you had agro from healing).
Things did get better, but from my own experience, healing heroics at the start of Cata. was an exercise in frustration. The "triage" idea just simply didn't seem to exist, because Healing Wave initially healed for so little.
It emphatically did _not_ make them impossible to complete in lfg. As I said earlier, the only times I couldn't complete an instance with the group I went in with was when people gave up or we couldn't find three people to pull their heads out of their asses for the beams on Corla. And when people gave up I'd just wait for more, explain the fight to them and go on with the instance. Having to talk to the people in the group or wiping does not mean you can't finish the instance.
And I really do think cata heroics would have produced better players if they'd stuck with it. Not because they were forced to deal with harder dungeons, but because harder dungeons would force people to talk to each other. I was pretty hopeless through vanilla and BC because I had no information outside what the game presented to me. I eventually discovered websites outside the game and realized it was all but impossible to play "properly" without reading these websites, but it took me four fucking years. I was way out of the loop. I was not even aware that there was supposed to be a tank/healer/dps division of labor for years.
Talking to people in dungeons about what's going wrong and why is 1) only possible if something actually goes wrong so that they will stop and listen and 2) a huge opportunity to help another player improve.
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There are reasons why bags had to be added in order to encourage people playing the Tank or Healer role, and it was not unusual to zone into an instance as dps and find that the tank spot would simply not be filled, especially if whatever loot the tank wanted, was at the start of the instance. I remember ZA in particular; the tank would stick around for the first boss, then drop, next tank would appear, ask if the first boss had been killed, and he'd drop as well. Taking the deserter buff and re-queueing was quicker than sticking it out for the rest of the instance.
I suppose in the end it depends on what LFD's aim was; in WotLK, you'd log on, sign up, and probably have a dungeon done within 30-40 mins. In Cata. heroics, you'd be lucky to get into a dungeon in that time, and even then, it was rather iffy if the run actually happened.
It was almost as if the game had "regressed" back to TBC where you sat in a city for 30 mins trying to form a group in city chat.
When heroics were first implemented, they were done specfically to give smaller guilds something to do at endgame. They offered solid blue-quality progression items in addition to a chance at an epic which was on-par with what you'd get out of Karazhan. Additionally, the badge system that was debuted also helped to offset the bad luck you may have had with the heroics. As time went on though, heroics stopped being about "what drops am I looking for" and became "how quickly can we farm these heroics to load up on badges". Heroics became as they are now - a currency generator. That is the biggest failing of heroics today, but at least now (and mostly in Wrath) they were easy enough to burn through. In Cataclysm, the prospect of spending upwards of an hour or more in a heroic dungeon to come out with a handful of VP and JP was ridiculous, and GC's blog "Wow, heroics are hard!" was straight-up insulting by telling players to just run the normals for enchanting mats/cloth and as for heroics, hey, git gud.
Heroics will not be going back to that difficulty ever again. What you'll see instead are Challenge modes that focus less on speed and more on the TBC or Cata era coordination/class stacking (according to the devs anyway), and potentially a Mythic difficulty for dungeons later on if there's a call for it. But heroics will continue to be the currency generators they are today.
Was that the quest that took you to the shore of Sliverpine forest and had the yellow voidwalkers that phased in and out
I did not have a horde shaman until cata nor did I really play my draenei one until cata
I got a Blackfuse Bombling though! The game finally rewarded me for carrying terrible LFRs through ToT (Solotanking Lei Shen is best) and SoO.
...Oh god, he also drops a cloak WHHHYYYYYYYY!"
I am now very pessimistic.
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The Horde water totem quest took you to deep south Barrens, then far SW Ashenvale, then Tarren Mills, then the coastline of Silverpine, then back to Ratchet.
Back then you didn't have a mount, and several of the mobs were level 24 or higher...when you got the quest at level 20.
Hmm. I had to do some digging to figure out my start time! Cataclysm was released on December 7th, I hit level 85 on January 7th. I knew I hadn't started the game at launch. If there was a fix or a patch that happened in the first month to improve Shaman accuracy or whatnot then I would not have noticed it. I think I distinctly remember accuracy changes for restoration as part of my journey through that game. That shaman was my first horde character to max level as I aimed to quest with The Beasts. Alas that journey was short lived.
I remember the struggles with the new mana and healing system as well. We had some pretty wonky healing and absolutely no healing cooldowns at the start of that expansion. It was rough! I felt like there was enough control and utility to balance out though. In a priest's cloth shoe's I'd have had no control, no interrupt, no nuthin but my heals! That had to be rougher at the start?
I saw the accuracy thing as an inconvenience but not a deal breaker. The chance of failure was low: 3-5%. I always looked a my control as additive to what the party was supposed to have already. Not necessarily essential (until you had your DPS as a Warrior, Death Knightx2 Combo I suppose).
Cataclysm was when Glyphs really came of their own as somewhat interesting. I remember picking out like Grounding Totem reflects spells and other very niche glyphs just to exploit their potency in heroics. It was fun.
also resto shaman wasn't so bad in cata LFD? You had CC for most situations and the same low-mana kind of heals that everybody else had (i.e. riptide and HW everything.)
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pretty sure in that month if not long after, we saw a fair few changes; certainly with regards to healing wave and how much it healed for, the mana efficiency of some spells, and also some overall things like CC not agro'ing packs on pulls, interrupts always working, that kind of thing.
I found Windshear a complete pain when it missed. It was part of healing as a Shaman in that you prevented damage being done, and there was a significant amount of stuff that needed to be stopped. I'm pretty sure the failure rate was greater than 5% as well, considering you had mobs above 90.
CC breaking early was not uncommon, and tbh, it got to a point where it became safer not to CC mobs, because then you at least knew what was going on as opposed to a mob just randomly coming along and causing people to panic.
Things obviously got better, but at the start, I personally found the whole experience pretty dreadful, especially when I switched to dps and saw the amount of stuff a holy paladin could do and cover for.
I raid heroic 25m and I simply can't relate to people in 10h guilds. Not because of the silly arguments about which is harder but because the fights are fundamentally different. Also the fights themselves sometimes feel a bit watered down because they have to be scalable to 6 widely different raid modes. They often miss the mark on tuning by alot in one mode or the other.
Needless to say that the news about mythic raids in WoD make me very happy. I also hope my realm gets connected to another one soon since the more 25m guilds (soon to be 20) we share our space with the merrier.
When I say that I would love to replay TBC I dont mean going back to stuff like shadow only being a mana battery, the old talent system or no transmogs. I just mean that I would love to replay those raids in their intended difficulty but today everything that isn't the latest expansion or even the latest tier is simply outdated content. I never raided in vanilla so I don't see much appeal in going back to that but I can imagine why some people would.
The way the old attunements worked simply had to go but I don't see why they couldn't do something like it again and this time tie it to guilds instead of individual players.
There is why I specifically called out "people that were in top end guilds, where some of the BS was mitigated," because these are the very people that don't seem to get why attunements were bullshit. If you were at the top of the raiding hierarchy on your server, you didn't have to worry about people leaving your guild once they got attuned because there wasn't a guild further ahead on the next tier of raiding and being doomed to likely be the Tier X guild forever stuck working on raid Y.
I know the excuse is going to be "but Mill, the scrubs must be forced to L2Play and learn the lore."
1. Attunements didn't teach anyone to be a better player. If a player wasn't naturally good at the game and/or their spec/class. Then the issues comes down to either needing more practice or just not giving a fuck. Attunements IMO are counter productive to the former, since they restrict the pool of players and content for the person to practice on. Yeah, wiping sucks on farm content, but they are only ass if you get stuck with people that seem incapable of learning. As for the latter, well attunements did fuck all to address that, if those guys really wanted to raid, they would eventually find a way to get carried through the bullshit.
2. As for lore, can always just have optional quest chains outside of raiding for that. I guess you could also have optional quests that go through the raid, but in a way that isn't obnoxious to everyone else that you happen to raid with. "But Mill, that just makes it optional and people that don't care about lore, will skp it," so who gives a fuck! No, seriously, who gives a flying fuck because you shouldn't give a fuck how people play the game, when the manner has no fucking bearing on raid performance. Sure you might want to know why 'Lord Buttface, King of Bear Asses' is in raid X and why that crazy dwarf wants to make a hat out of his ass, but plenty of players don't really care and them remaining ignorant isn't going affect whether the raid successfully downs 'Lord Buttface' or not. Also attunements can be real fucking annoying for people that like leveling alts to raid on.
3. Attenements are ass because they are a means to gate content, which limits who players can raid with in a more odious manner than player factions and PvP/PvE server setups.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Then... Do you risk a second try?