Well given that I'm apparently one of the only players in the thread who thinks more than one turn ahead and plans around the possibility of Mind Control when I play cards, I'll endure.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited November 2013
Priest won 3 out of 3 games in the latest Invitational match.
The thing about MC is that you can play around it when you're winning and make it look weak, but when the game is close or you're losing? The Priest just has to hold it until you're forced to drop a monster to take board control back, and you lose.
If you remove or nerf the Priest's low-cost removal, you destroy the class. They depend on that removal because their hero power is mediocre at controlling the board. Nerfing Mind Control is the best way to pull them back a bit.
Yeah, it can act as "win insurance". Which lots of cards can do, but none to such an absolute extent. It stinks to be losing, and then have any chance of getting back in the fight ripped away from you.
Part of the problem I think it related to how the game can easily degrade into both players with very small hands, at which point MC becomes incredibly powerful.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
And a "monster" doesn't have to be an Ironbark Protector or Ysera. When the game's close it can be something as "small" as a Lord of the Arena or Sunwalker.
Artosis looks so serious when he's playing hearthstone
Casters clamoring to justify taunts
I've seen Trump lose so many constructed games the same way by not having taunt, and he just brushes it off with "Taunt has bad value." He needs to get that value doesn't matter if you get completely run over. His decks didn't appear to have enough versatility either.
I would like to see these players go at it again on Sunday with an Arena style drafting tournament.
Priest won 3 out of 3 games in the latest Invitational match.
The thing about MC is that you can play around it when you're winning and make it look weak, but when the game is close or you're losing? The Priest just has to hold it until you're forced to drop a monster to take board control back, and you lose.
If you remove or nerf the Priest's low-cost removal, you destroy the class. They depend on that removal because their hero power is mediocre at controlling the board.
The last invitational match the mage beat priest, but the player was too stupid to do the math and see they won. In addition, Reckful is a much worse player than Kripparian (which was evidenced by, you know, missing that he actually had won the game and then choosing to play two Coldlight Oracles instead).
Artosis lost to a priest deck with bad draws on his Paladin deck, then beat the priest deck with his Warrior deck. So in the more evenly-skilled match, priest has a 50% win rate. These are also decks made a month ago, and the meta has already moved on from Priests. Players want to have a priest deck in their back pocket because it's still a very strong class, make no mistake: I'm not saying priest is bad or Mind Control is bad, and don't get so heated at what I say that you miss that. However a lot of players lose sight of what's actually important in how to win because they remember how they lost instead of why they lost.
It's very rare to lose because Mind Control is Mind Control. Mind Control merely takes the form of "I have more power in my hand than you do" in a very visceral way. Anon The Felon really hits it on the head: Mind Control feels bad to players because of what it does. You see your Big Guy go over to the other side which feels worse than having him just die or turn into a sheep or get Equalitied and traded for a 1/1. However, if you lost to Mind Control, you should be asking yourself what you could have done differently not just throughout the game, but in the construction of your deck itself.
Did you run out of options, and were forced to play what you felt was going to be Mind Controlled? Maybe you need more card draw in your deck. Were you unable to keep up with the priest's removal spells leading up to turn 8? Perhaps you should invest in cards that can either avoid that removal entirely, or run more cards than he can remove. Were you running a control deck, and got outcontrolled? Maybe you need to include more early game threats. The hard part about deckbuilding, of course, is that you have to do this not just for priests but for every deck in the game. Your deck has to win against Control Priests, and it has to win against Weenie Paladin, and it has to win against Unleash the Hounds. But it's important to win that it doesn't have to win every time to be a good deck. Sometimes the heart of the cards isn't with you, and sometimes it's not with your opponent. If you win 50% of your games, your deck is still doing pretty decently.
Mind Control is visceral, and make no mistake: it's a late game bomb. It is, in fact, the priest responding to your late-game bomb with his! And unfortunately, depending on what your bomb is, he might very well have gotten a lot more use out of his than yours - sometimes, you may want to evaluate if your late-game bomb should be a different one, if you reliably don't get any use out of it.
Just remember, there are two roads you can take in competitive games when you lose repeatedly to something: You can call that thing overpowered and give up, or you can try to figure out how you, you personally, beat it. Maybe you can't get your head around a Druid deck to deal with Mind Control. Maybe you just don't get that matchup - that's okay! Ask for advice for your deck. Instead of coming to the thread and going FUCK MIND CONTROLS WHO'S WITH ME, why don't you try posting your deck and saying "Hey guys, here's my deck. I'm having a lot of problem with X, Y, and Z. Does anyone have any advice for dealing with it?"? I genuinely don't see many people doing that, and I'd really love to try and give people actual advice as to what they've put together.
I'm really legitimately interested in seeing how Artosis vs Kripp goes, because I think this, the nonexistent Trump vs Kripp, and Trump vs Art were the only "real" matches in this tournament.
artosis just doesn't have the cards for the midgame right now
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
The only other play there would have been to attack the hero and leave a 50/50 chance of Rag killing the argent defender, going into the next turn with 4 health and either 0 or 3 damage on Artosis's side of the board.
SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
Matching online card games with the stable of Blizzard casters and production values is pretty great. eSports needs to feature card games more prominently.
+1
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Name, stop posting like a shithead, jesus fucking christ.
I am THIS close to kicking you from the thread.
Yeah getting told to jump in a lake, harsh though it may be, was a good "yo get your shit together and gain some perspective on what you're saying"
I wrote up a longer post about my feelings of Mind Control to try and be more legitimately helpful to people who seemed to be having trouble with it but since it's probably not clear in that, sorry to everyone I frustrated! I do legitimately think a ton of people are overreacting about Mind Control but that doesn't make some of what I said cheeky or funny!
Honestly card games need more games than one a deck to say whether or not either deck is good. While I enjoy Kripp, Trump's, and Artosis' decks, I don't think any of these matches are actually definitively saying who's got the best decks or the better player. But showing as many games as they would need is probably not something they have the time for.
Honestly card games need more games than one a deck to say whether or not either deck is good. While I enjoy Kripp, Trump's, and Artosis' decks, I don't think any of these matches are actually definitively saying who's got the best decks or the better player. But showing as many games as they would need is probably not something they have the time for.
This is why MTG events are three rounds to a match. So much of a CCG game can be defined by that first draw. Hearthstone is even more criminal about this than MTG.
It's a very hard lesson for most people in Hearthstone: If that draw is not literally perfect, mulligan. Don't keep a turn three play. You need to be moving much faster than that.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I was sitting here thinking, "Isn't Artosis dead on board?" and then realized Kripp is only at nine mana.
Honestly card games need more games than one a deck to say whether or not either deck is good. While I enjoy Kripp, Trump's, and Artosis' decks, I don't think any of these matches are actually definitively saying who's got the best decks or the better player. But showing as many games as they would need is probably not something they have the time for.
This is why MTG events are three rounds to a match. So much of a CCG game can be defined by that first draw. Hearthstone is even more criminal about this than MTG.
It's a very hard lesson for most people in Hearthstone: If that draw is not literally perfect, mulligan. Don't keep a turn three play. You need to be moving much faster than that.
Yeah, the second I learned myself real good on mulligans, I saw a dramatic win increase on both Arena and Constructed.
Posts
This is wrong, and this is why you lose to MC.
Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
Not worth talking to geese.
I've seen Trump lose so many constructed games the same way by not having taunt, and he just brushes it off with "Taunt has bad value." He needs to get that value doesn't matter if you get completely run over. His decks didn't appear to have enough versatility either.
I would like to see these players go at it again on Sunday with an Arena style drafting tournament.
Not how it theoretically performs in a perfect situation.
Some people seem to not quite understand this.
The strangest thing I find is the undervaluing of cards because of cost, while the analysis seems to assume that all mana will be used every turn.
The last invitational match the mage beat priest, but the player was too stupid to do the math and see they won. In addition, Reckful is a much worse player than Kripparian (which was evidenced by, you know, missing that he actually had won the game and then choosing to play two Coldlight Oracles instead).
Artosis lost to a priest deck with bad draws on his Paladin deck, then beat the priest deck with his Warrior deck. So in the more evenly-skilled match, priest has a 50% win rate. These are also decks made a month ago, and the meta has already moved on from Priests. Players want to have a priest deck in their back pocket because it's still a very strong class, make no mistake: I'm not saying priest is bad or Mind Control is bad, and don't get so heated at what I say that you miss that. However a lot of players lose sight of what's actually important in how to win because they remember how they lost instead of why they lost.
It's very rare to lose because Mind Control is Mind Control. Mind Control merely takes the form of "I have more power in my hand than you do" in a very visceral way. Anon The Felon really hits it on the head: Mind Control feels bad to players because of what it does. You see your Big Guy go over to the other side which feels worse than having him just die or turn into a sheep or get Equalitied and traded for a 1/1. However, if you lost to Mind Control, you should be asking yourself what you could have done differently not just throughout the game, but in the construction of your deck itself.
Did you run out of options, and were forced to play what you felt was going to be Mind Controlled? Maybe you need more card draw in your deck. Were you unable to keep up with the priest's removal spells leading up to turn 8? Perhaps you should invest in cards that can either avoid that removal entirely, or run more cards than he can remove. Were you running a control deck, and got outcontrolled? Maybe you need to include more early game threats. The hard part about deckbuilding, of course, is that you have to do this not just for priests but for every deck in the game. Your deck has to win against Control Priests, and it has to win against Weenie Paladin, and it has to win against Unleash the Hounds. But it's important to win that it doesn't have to win every time to be a good deck. Sometimes the heart of the cards isn't with you, and sometimes it's not with your opponent. If you win 50% of your games, your deck is still doing pretty decently.
Mind Control is visceral, and make no mistake: it's a late game bomb. It is, in fact, the priest responding to your late-game bomb with his! And unfortunately, depending on what your bomb is, he might very well have gotten a lot more use out of his than yours - sometimes, you may want to evaluate if your late-game bomb should be a different one, if you reliably don't get any use out of it.
Just remember, there are two roads you can take in competitive games when you lose repeatedly to something: You can call that thing overpowered and give up, or you can try to figure out how you, you personally, beat it. Maybe you can't get your head around a Druid deck to deal with Mind Control. Maybe you just don't get that matchup - that's okay! Ask for advice for your deck. Instead of coming to the thread and going FUCK MIND CONTROLS WHO'S WITH ME, why don't you try posting your deck and saying "Hey guys, here's my deck. I'm having a lot of problem with X, Y, and Z. Does anyone have any advice for dealing with it?"? I genuinely don't see many people doing that, and I'd really love to try and give people actual advice as to what they've put together.
So happy.
aaaand I spoke too soon
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I am THIS close to kicking you from the thread.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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Yeah getting told to jump in a lake, harsh though it may be, was a good "yo get your shit together and gain some perspective on what you're saying"
I wrote up a longer post about my feelings of Mind Control to try and be more legitimately helpful to people who seemed to be having trouble with it but since it's probably not clear in that, sorry to everyone I frustrated! I do legitimately think a ton of people are overreacting about Mind Control but that doesn't make some of what I said cheeky or funny!
He also won 2 games with his draw, 1 topdecking the consecration, second with well...everything.
Leper Gnome OP pls nerf kthx
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
This is why MTG events are three rounds to a match. So much of a CCG game can be defined by that first draw. Hearthstone is even more criminal about this than MTG.
It's a very hard lesson for most people in Hearthstone: If that draw is not literally perfect, mulligan. Don't keep a turn three play. You need to be moving much faster than that.
Yeah, the second I learned myself real good on mulligans, I saw a dramatic win increase on both Arena and Constructed.