The problem with the Argent Commander nerf is that it's the charge + Divine Shield + 4 damage that was the issue and why everyone loved it. The health is ... who cares?
Well, given it had DS and it probably took out your biggest dude when it came down, it could be fairly hard to respond to and then would probably take out another moderate sized guy. It usually traded for like a 4 and a 5. This lets it trade for a 4 or 5 and then be killed by a lot of 1s or from Stormpike Commando's battle cry or a lot of other fairly reasonable things. Still a two for one keeping it as an attractive card, but more reasonable as far as curve goes on those two.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Flame Imp's change seems to do nothing. Warlock Aggro isn't winning at 2 life, and this pretty much just removes one life tap over the course of an entire game if they're really hurting.
That's a serious nerf to unleash the hounds and indirectly a major nerf to hunters. I've never seen a hunter deck at my level that wasn't a combo deck so I don't expect to see them at all anymore.
Argent Commander is still value. It still runs in, kills a creature and forces removal.
Shattered Sun cleric might have issues now. It dies to backstab, holy smite, blizzard, and loot hoarders now but I'm not sure if there's an easy replacement for it in the common argo decks. There's no other 3 cost neutral that fills the same role so I suppose we start seeing more scarlet crusaders out there instead.
Battlenet ID: NullPointer
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Battlecry on Shattered Sun is too strong for it to be removed completely from decks. It might now die to Blizzard, but it's still pushing the guy you just buffed +1/+1 out of the range of that same blizzard.
Yeah, SSC is still a really solid card. Certainly makes 2/3s more appealing, given that you could drop one on T2, SSC on T3, and remove your opponent's T2 drop without loss.
I am pleased that the ubiquitous shattered sun clerics can no longer kill my feral spirits for free, but I can kill them with my stormforged axe swings. And both they and argent commanders now die reliably to lightning storm. Might even consider including Doomhammer in my deck again after the patch.
These nerfs are secretly a shaman buff.
+3
TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I'm surprised they're going after UtH/MC before Mages. Priest just doesn't feel that strong in constructed and Hunters don't seem to have any other options.
Battlecry on Shattered Sun is why I play it. It being a 3/3 is fantastic but it doesn't change its use for me. It allows a 2 drop to trade well with a 3 or a 4 drop. I already use Scarlet Crusaders because they are pretty great for trading. Still weaker verse a mage but kind of an early game 2 for 1 with the mana early on.
I am not sure what to do with a hunter deck I can't do better with a mage now. But the change to mind control means I might start using big creatures again. I have nothing costing over 6 in most decks and the biggest creatures tend to be 4/4s. So that is good.
I'm surprised they're going after UtH/MC before Mages. Priest just doesn't feel that strong in constructed and Hunters don't seem to have any other options.
Guessing that even though Mind Control was not a factor in the higher levels of constructed player, they decided to nerf it because it felt OP at lower levels where argo decks aren't as fast and people play big creatures because they're cool.
Battlenet ID: NullPointer
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
I am pleased that the ubiquitous shattered sun clerics can no longer kill my feral spirits for free, but I can kill them with my stormforged axe swings. And both they and argent commanders now die reliably to lightning storm. Might even consider including Doomhammer in my deck again after the patch.
These nerfs are secretly a shaman buff.
See, this is why I love Thalnos and think he should be in every deck: Hmm, my shaman deck needs to include Lightning Storm to not get rolled by lots of minions. But it might decide to troll me and not kill that 3/3. THALNOS TO THE RESCUE!
I'm surprised they're going after UtH/MC before Mages. Priest just doesn't feel that strong in constructed and Hunters don't seem to have any other options.
Guessing that even though Mind Control was not a factor in the higher levels of constructed player, they decided to nerf it because it felt OP at lower levels where argo decks aren't as fast and people play big creatures because they're cool.
I am pleased that the ubiquitous shattered sun clerics can no longer kill my feral spirits for free, but I can kill them with my stormforged axe swings. And both they and argent commanders now die reliably to lightning storm. Might even consider including Doomhammer in my deck again after the patch.
These nerfs are secretly a shaman buff.
See, this is why I love Thalnos and think he should be in every deck: Hmm, my shaman deck needs to include Lightning Storm to not get rolled by lots of minions. But it might decide to troll me and not kill that 3/3. THALNOS TO THE RESCUE!
I do want Thalnos, but can't afford to craft him atm and packs won't drop him. Thalnos and Sylvanas (and Ragnaros) are the important legendaries I really want, but I never seem to get legendaries. The three I have are Ysera, Hogger and Leeroy, though, so I guess I could have it worse. Hogger's great anywhere, and even though Ysera rarely sees play she can win games when I'm fighting another control deck and we both go into topdeck mode.
Sad to see no mention of making the Coin not count as a spell.
I'm pretty sure the developers mentioned that they like having a spell.
But why? Just because they like max RNG?
Anyway, I see (or experience) games like this against mages and it's just so infuriating. I don't know that anything should be done, but it doesn't feel any less frustrating than losing to MC or OTK hunter.
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
0
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
edited December 2013
IMO Leeroy belongs in almost every deck. He's probably my favorite legendary right now.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
edited December 2013
Leeroy combos with the new UTH
A combo of sorts is still intact:
In play from last turn: Starving Hyena at minimum. Add timber wolf if you can't afford it this turn.
Play Leeroy, then UTH. Suicide new dogs, hopefully 2/1's, into enemy minions, to buff hyena(s). Chow down. Giggle with glee.
Tynnan on
0
38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
Sad to see no mention of making the Coin not count as a spell.
I'm pretty sure the developers mentioned that they like having a spell.
But why? Just because they like max RNG?
Anyway, I see (or experience) games like this against mages and it's just so infuriating. I don't know that anything should be done, but it doesn't feel any less frustrating than losing to MC or OTK hunter.
He was not able to drop a creature until turn four. If you get a terrible hand and your opponent gets a good hand you've pretty much lost no matter what class you're up against
IMO Leeroy belongs in almost every deck. He's probably my favorite legendary right now.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Well, in a game with no interactivity on your opponent's turn, it's very important to ensure that no effective* one-turn kill mechanics exist. I'm fine with the gigantic hammer approach.
*If you find one that takes 12 turns, 6 different cards, and a solar eclipse to pull off, it might be okay, because nobody's seriously going to pull that off. "I drew some cheap beasts and a low-cost common, and then you didn't kill me fast enough" isn't that.
Most of the nerfs feel like pretty solid reasoning. UtH was massively op for its cost. The flame imp change is kind of odd. I think i can remember maybe one instance that i got him out early and he usually dies very quickly. I think it was balanced before but its hardly a major nerf to most lock decks.
I've been playing a Warlock quite a bit, and the odd thing about most of the constructed decks ive seen is that they ignore important abilities very often. The current 3 star master deck has no taunts, no silences, one charge. i can see it as powerful IF you get the cards you need out, but i see the lock having problems getting to turn 9 alive due to his rather weak list of minions.
Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
0
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
IMO Leeroy belongs in almost every deck. He's probably my favorite legendary right now.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Well, in a game with no interactivity on your opponent's turn, it's very important to ensure that no effective* one-turn kill mechanics exist. I'm fine with the gigantic hammer approach.
*If you find one that takes 12 turns, 6 different cards, and a solar eclipse to pull off, it might be okay, because nobody's seriously going to pull that off. "I drew some cheap beasts and a low-cost common, and then you didn't kill me fast enough" isn't that.
I agree with your sentiment - I just feel that they could have taken a more subtle approach to toning down the OTK combo. They could, for example, make timber wolf cost more (say, 1/2 for 2 mana, or 2/2 for 3 mana to make it equivalent to but distinct with dire wolf alpha). This would nerf the combo in a different, but still important, way. The new UTH is very overpriced for its effect, especially since it interacts poorly with hunters' excellent removal spells.
Sad to see no mention of making the Coin not count as a spell.
I'm pretty sure the developers mentioned that they like having a spell.
But why? Just because they like max RNG?
Anyway, I see (or experience) games like this against mages and it's just so infuriating. I don't know that anything should be done, but it doesn't feel any less frustrating than losing to MC or OTK hunter.
He was not able to drop a creature until turn four. If you get a terrible hand and your opponent gets a good hand you've pretty much lost no matter what class you're up against
He had a 2-drop - he didn't have a bad hand. The mage just had a perfect answer every time. And that is frustrating, obviously. In arena more so, since the odds of even having the cards in the draft complicates things. As Kripp said at the end, the mage was playing what would be an excellent hand in a constructed deck, and the fact that he had it in the Arena was the frustration.
Most of the nerfs feel like pretty solid reasoning. UtH was massively op for its cost. The flame imp change is kind of odd. I think i can remember maybe one instance that i got him out early and he usually dies very quickly. I think it was balanced before but its hardly a major nerf to most lock decks.
I've been playing a Warlock quite a bit, and the odd thing about most of the constructed decks ive seen is that they ignore important abilities very often. The current 3 star master deck has no taunts, no silences, one charge. i can see it as powerful IF you get the cards you need out, but i see the lock having problems getting to turn 9 alive due to his rather weak list of minions.
flame imp is a huge part of the big warlock aggro that I (and others!) ran in the tournament. My version was something like 7-2. I think it's an unobjectionable change; I definitely see that deck is very fast, and this is a subtle change that affects usage of lifetap.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
A combo of sorts is still intact:
In play from last turn: Starving Hyena at minimum. Add timber wolf if you can't afford it this turn.
Play Leeroy, then UTH. Suicide new dogs, hopefully 2/1's, into enemy minions, to buff hyena(s). Chow down. Giggle with glee.
I guess that works well with flesh eating zombies and cult master, too, if the rest are beasts.
Just realized that change was missing from this list. Absolutely nothing was done to Sylvanas who sorely needs some adjusting. Unlike the other legendaries who are generally overcosted for their stats with powerful effects, Sylvanas has a competitive stat line. I was expecting her to go down to a 5/4 or even 4/4.
IMO Leeroy belongs in almost every deck. He's probably my favorite legendary right now.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Well, in a game with no interactivity on your opponent's turn, it's very important to ensure that no effective* one-turn kill mechanics exist. I'm fine with the gigantic hammer approach.
*If you find one that takes 12 turns, 6 different cards, and a solar eclipse to pull off, it might be okay, because nobody's seriously going to pull that off. "I drew some cheap beasts and a low-cost common, and then you didn't kill me fast enough" isn't that.
I agree with your sentiment - I just feel that they could have taken a more subtle approach to toning down the OTK combo. They could, for example, make timber wolf cost more (say, 1/2 for 2 mana, or 2/2 for 3 mana to make it equivalent to but distinct with dire wolf alpha). This would nerf the combo in a different, but still important, way. The new UTH is very overpriced for its effect, especially since it interacts poorly with hunters' excellent removal spells.
A consistent design philosophy of the devs is that they want to mitigate things that are out of your control. That's why MC is getting increased cost, because while they still like the concept of the card and top players can handle it well enough, it sucks to see your best minion stole right off your board. There's only 2 ways to prevent that from happening, and they both belong to mages.
It's also why Thoughtsteal now makes copies of your opponent's cards instead of pulling them right out of his hand.
UTH OTK was a PITA because you really didn't know if that was their play until turn 2 or maybe even 3, depending on what they did or didn't throw down. Once you realized what was going on, you needed to draw multiple taunt minions or burn him down by turn 7 or 8. There's no opportunity for reaction, it's all trying to get out in front of the hunter.
Shaman's bloodlust OTKs are similar, but they need at least a turn to set up - which allows you at least 1 turn, sometimes 2, to stuff their play. Giving you more of a chance to play around it is the big difference. Still sucks majorly when it happens, but it somewhat lessons the despair of "there was nothing I could do."
I still think it's a little weird they are going after hunters so hard. I think hunters are a pretty weak class and also happen to be one of the only ones that can give the frost mages with ice block a difficult time (because of UTH and flare) and given that those mage decks are rolling all over everybody, it's a doubly odd change to make.
I'm surprised they're going after UtH/MC before Mages. Priest just doesn't feel that strong in constructed and Hunters don't seem to have any other options.
Guessing that even though Mind Control was not a factor in the higher levels of constructed player, they decided to nerf it because it felt OP at lower levels where argo decks aren't as fast and people play big creatures because they're cool.
It's pretty ludicrous in arena, really. Though that could have been adjusted by making it a rare.
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
playing around not having too many creatures is better than playing around "does my opponent have what he wants in his hand so he can deal 25 damage on turn six?"
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
IMO Leeroy belongs in almost every deck. He's probably my favorite legendary right now.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Well, in a game with no interactivity on your opponent's turn, it's very important to ensure that no effective* one-turn kill mechanics exist. I'm fine with the gigantic hammer approach.
*If you find one that takes 12 turns, 6 different cards, and a solar eclipse to pull off, it might be okay, because nobody's seriously going to pull that off. "I drew some cheap beasts and a low-cost common, and then you didn't kill me fast enough" isn't that.
I agree with your sentiment - I just feel that they could have taken a more subtle approach to toning down the OTK combo. They could, for example, make timber wolf cost more (say, 1/2 for 2 mana, or 2/2 for 3 mana to make it equivalent to but distinct with dire wolf alpha). This would nerf the combo in a different, but still important, way. The new UTH is very overpriced for its effect, especially since it interacts poorly with hunters' excellent removal spells.
A consistent design philosophy of the devs is that they want to mitigate things that are out of your control. That's why MC is getting increased cost, because while they still like the concept of the card and top players can handle it well enough, it sucks to see your best minion stole right off your board. There's only 2 ways to prevent that from happening, and they both belong to mages.
It's also why Thoughtsteal now makes copies of your opponent's cards instead of pulling them right out of his hand.
UTH OTK was a PITA because you really didn't know if that was their play until turn 2 or maybe even 3, depending on what they did or didn't throw down. Once you realized what was going on, you needed to draw multiple taunt minions or burn him down by turn 7 or 8. There's no opportunity for reaction, it's all trying to get out in front of the hunter.
Shaman's bloodlust OTKs are similar, but they need at least a turn to set up - which allows you at least 1 turn, sometimes 2, to stuff their play. Giving you more of a chance to play around it is the big difference. Still sucks majorly when it happens, but it somewhat lessons the despair of "there was nothing I could do."
The same is true for most matchups, though. If you get behind, you have to either regain momentum or you will lose. That is true for facing any class, not just Hunters. Hunters manifested this more suddenly than other classes, but it doesn't make it untrue for other matchups.
Nothing I posted disagreed with your premise here...
I've never seen a hunter OTK deck that can do that.
Usually they do turn 7, and get a buzzard, timber wolf, dragonhawk, UTH + additional..
What I've listed is 12 damage, which is pathetic. Add a dire wolf alpha and you wind up with 18 damage.
The dream is another timber wolf and another dragonhawk, totals up to 11+16 damage or 27, but I can't seem personally to ever draw that.
I've never seen a hunter OTK deck that can do that.
Usually they do turn 7, and get a buzzard, timber wolf, dragonhawk, UTH + additional..
What I've listed is 12 damage, which is pathetic. Add a dire wolf alpha and you wind up with 18 damage.
The dream is another timber wolf and another dragonhawk, totals up to 11+16 damage or 27, but I can't seem personally to ever draw that.
Agreed. The truly massive OTKs people think of require both dragonhawks, at least one timber wolf, and an owl or two for good measure. That's a lot of pieces to acquire, and it comes together less often than you'd think. How many people actually remember when a hunter fails to OTK them? They probably just take the win and move on, remembering only the times they got wrecked by the setup plays that whittled them below 20 life early on.
0
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
Generally, OTK hunters lose to anything I've tried
that's generally why it's pretty shitty for both players
Posts
Well, given it had DS and it probably took out your biggest dude when it came down, it could be fairly hard to respond to and then would probably take out another moderate sized guy. It usually traded for like a 4 and a 5. This lets it trade for a 4 or 5 and then be killed by a lot of 1s or from Stormpike Commando's battle cry or a lot of other fairly reasonable things. Still a two for one keeping it as an attractive card, but more reasonable as far as curve goes on those two.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Argent Commander is still value. It still runs in, kills a creature and forces removal.
Shattered Sun cleric might have issues now. It dies to backstab, holy smite, blizzard, and loot hoarders now but I'm not sure if there's an easy replacement for it in the common argo decks. There's no other 3 cost neutral that fills the same role so I suppose we start seeing more scarlet crusaders out there instead.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
These nerfs are secretly a shaman buff.
I am not sure what to do with a hunter deck I can't do better with a mage now. But the change to mind control means I might start using big creatures again. I have nothing costing over 6 in most decks and the biggest creatures tend to be 4/4s. So that is good.
Guessing that even though Mind Control was not a factor in the higher levels of constructed player, they decided to nerf it because it felt OP at lower levels where argo decks aren't as fast and people play big creatures because they're cool.
See, this is why I love Thalnos and think he should be in every deck: Hmm, my shaman deck needs to include Lightning Storm to not get rolled by lots of minions. But it might decide to troll me and not kill that 3/3. THALNOS TO THE RESCUE!
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Also: Arena.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
I'm pretty sure the developers mentioned that they like having a spell.
38thDoE on steam
Incidentally I already run two of all of these. Also Stormpike Commando. Also Stormwind Knight.
I do want Thalnos, but can't afford to craft him atm and packs won't drop him. Thalnos and Sylvanas (and Ragnaros) are the important legendaries I really want, but I never seem to get legendaries. The three I have are Ysera, Hogger and Leeroy, though, so I guess I could have it worse. Hogger's great anywhere, and even though Ysera rarely sees play she can win games when I'm fighting another control deck and we both go into topdeck mode.
Anyway, I see (or experience) games like this against mages and it's just so infuriating. I don't know that anything should be done, but it doesn't feel any less frustrating than losing to MC or OTK hunter.
I love the SSC and Argent Commander changes. Not so happy about the UTH change. I never ran OTK hunter myself, but I don't feel that such a drastic change was the right way to go with that. They've essentially taken a sledgehammer to that style.
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
A combo of sorts is still intact:
In play from last turn: Starving Hyena at minimum. Add timber wolf if you can't afford it this turn.
Play Leeroy, then UTH. Suicide new dogs, hopefully 2/1's, into enemy minions, to buff hyena(s). Chow down. Giggle with glee.
He was not able to drop a creature until turn four. If you get a terrible hand and your opponent gets a good hand you've pretty much lost no matter what class you're up against
38thDoE on steam
Well, in a game with no interactivity on your opponent's turn, it's very important to ensure that no effective* one-turn kill mechanics exist. I'm fine with the gigantic hammer approach.
*If you find one that takes 12 turns, 6 different cards, and a solar eclipse to pull off, it might be okay, because nobody's seriously going to pull that off. "I drew some cheap beasts and a low-cost common, and then you didn't kill me fast enough" isn't that.
I've been playing a Warlock quite a bit, and the odd thing about most of the constructed decks ive seen is that they ignore important abilities very often. The current 3 star master deck has no taunts, no silences, one charge. i can see it as powerful IF you get the cards you need out, but i see the lock having problems getting to turn 9 alive due to his rather weak list of minions.
I agree with your sentiment - I just feel that they could have taken a more subtle approach to toning down the OTK combo. They could, for example, make timber wolf cost more (say, 1/2 for 2 mana, or 2/2 for 3 mana to make it equivalent to but distinct with dire wolf alpha). This would nerf the combo in a different, but still important, way. The new UTH is very overpriced for its effect, especially since it interacts poorly with hunters' excellent removal spells.
flame imp is a huge part of the big warlock aggro that I (and others!) ran in the tournament. My version was something like 7-2. I think it's an unobjectionable change; I definitely see that deck is very fast, and this is a subtle change that affects usage of lifetap.
I guess that works well with flesh eating zombies and cult master, too, if the rest are beasts.
A consistent design philosophy of the devs is that they want to mitigate things that are out of your control. That's why MC is getting increased cost, because while they still like the concept of the card and top players can handle it well enough, it sucks to see your best minion stole right off your board. There's only 2 ways to prevent that from happening, and they both belong to mages.
It's also why Thoughtsteal now makes copies of your opponent's cards instead of pulling them right out of his hand.
UTH OTK was a PITA because you really didn't know if that was their play until turn 2 or maybe even 3, depending on what they did or didn't throw down. Once you realized what was going on, you needed to draw multiple taunt minions or burn him down by turn 7 or 8. There's no opportunity for reaction, it's all trying to get out in front of the hunter.
Shaman's bloodlust OTKs are similar, but they need at least a turn to set up - which allows you at least 1 turn, sometimes 2, to stuff their play. Giving you more of a chance to play around it is the big difference. Still sucks majorly when it happens, but it somewhat lessons the despair of "there was nothing I could do."
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/templates/221-upcoming-changes-in-the-next-hearthstone-patch
I still think it's a little weird they are going after hunters so hard. I think hunters are a pretty weak class and also happen to be one of the only ones that can give the frost mages with ice block a difficult time (because of UTH and flare) and given that those mage decks are rolling all over everybody, it's a doubly odd change to make.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
It's pretty ludicrous in arena, really. Though that could have been adjusted by making it a rare.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
The same is true for most matchups, though. If you get behind, you have to either regain momentum or you will lose. That is true for facing any class, not just Hunters. Hunters manifested this more suddenly than other classes, but it doesn't make it untrue for other matchups.
Nothing I posted disagreed with your premise here...
Usually they do turn 7, and get a buzzard, timber wolf, dragonhawk, UTH + additional..
What I've listed is 12 damage, which is pathetic. Add a dire wolf alpha and you wind up with 18 damage.
The dream is another timber wolf and another dragonhawk, totals up to 11+16 damage or 27, but I can't seem personally to ever draw that.
PSN: Vorpallion Twitch: Vorpallion
Agreed. The truly massive OTKs people think of require both dragonhawks, at least one timber wolf, and an owl or two for good measure. That's a lot of pieces to acquire, and it comes together less often than you'd think. How many people actually remember when a hunter fails to OTK them? They probably just take the win and move on, remembering only the times they got wrecked by the setup plays that whittled them below 20 life early on.
that's generally why it's pretty shitty for both players